Mega-Bestselling Author Kathryn Stockett on Finding Her Voice Again After ‘The Help’

0:00The criticism from The Help did shape how you started to approach this story and write this story. After many faults starts writing this story, I got fired. My publisher fired me because it had taken me so long. Because you were still operating out of fear. Yeah, there's something, I guess, scrappy inside of me that, you know, if you kick me when I'm down, I'm going to come out of that a little bit wiser and a little bit braver. You're still going to write the book, even though you don't have a contract. I don't give up easily. I got to say, I'm really stubborn. So when I got fired, it kind of put a fire under my ass to prove them wrong.

0:47This success of this book is going to be the best revenge for the publisher that fired you. I can't even believe it. It was fun to write. It was fun to write. It was. It was painful. It was fun.

1:01Hey, everybody. Thanks for stopping by the Oprah podcast. A warm welcome to you all. I know millions of you read The Help, Catherine Stockett's 2009 debut novel, which became a global phenomenon, selling over 15 million copies. Not many authors get to say that in their lifetime, not in three lifetimes. Back in 2011, the actress Octavia Spencer won an Oscar for her role in the hit film, The Help, based on the book. And now Catherine Stockett's long-awaited second novel, The Calamity Club, is finally here. And I know so many of you are going to devour this book. And it's already, I can tell you, runaway bestseller.

1:44I knew that that was going to happen. And I'm thrilled to be sitting on my front porch with the author, Catherine Stockett. I know you prefer everyone call you Kitty, so I will do the same. Kitty, welcome. So glad to be with you. So glad to be here. Let me just say, I fell in love with this coming-of-age story. And this is what I realized when I read this. I thought all of my favorite books are coming-of-age stories, beginning with Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye, of course, Celie in The Color Purple, Maya Angelou's story is a coming-of-age story. I know why the cagebird sings. And of course, To Kill a Mockingbird and Scout.

2:21There's something about a young girl's voice coming-of-age that speaks to me so deeply because I was a Southern girl coming-of-age. And obviously, because you have done such an incredible job with this book, that also spoke to you. This is a story of a group of bold, unbreakable women who overcome hardships to reclaimed their lives. The love between them was just, I was crying one minute and laughing really out loud to myself the next, and then cheering. I think it's both heartbreaking and it's also hilarious at the same time. So you've said writing a second novel in the shadow of the help was daunting.

3:00You know, living life and raising my daughter as a divorced woman. But But I think it took me so long because I told myself I would be cautious with this next book. I would write something short and simple and not draw the kinds of criticism that some people had for the help. Yeah. And what I ended up with was a very vanilla, you know, banana flavored book version of this book. Because you were trying to write not to offend anybody. That's right. And I was trying to write something that had no heart in it. And what I finally had to admit myself after many years of failure was that you cannot write about Mississippi, and certainly not in the 1930s, without talking about race, without talking about discrimination and the absurdities of some of the rules.

4:02that were in existence, especially in a place like Mississippi. Yes, where I was born. Yes. Yes, and was very happy to get out of at the time that I did. I understand. Yes, and you understand, yes. I always say I was born at the right time. I was born in—I'm going to start talking like Mississippi now. I was born in 1954 when Brown v. Board of Education, and the luckiest thing that ever happened to me was that I left Mississippi before I ever spent a day in a segregated school. Because had I grown up in a segregated school with teachers who were teaching me that, you know, I was less than, I would not have had the confidence or the agency or authority that I managed to have as a young girl moving to Milwaukee and never having to endure any of that.

4:55I think truly that made all the difference for me. And so what did you learn from the criticism of The Help? And what did you understand as the crux of that criticism? I'm of two minds about The Help. I mean, on the one hand, I get it. I understand the criticism. I understand that it put some people off that a white woman was writing a story that they perceived as a black woman's story. Story to tell. To tell. But the truth is, it was the story that I needed to write to answer a lot of the questions that I had about my childhood and about where I came from and about the things that I was taught.

5:43And I understand the criticism, but it was a story that just came out of me. And I don't know how to quiet the voices in my head. We write what we write because we have to. Did the criticism cause you to approach this book differently or make different decisions? You said in the beginning you were writing cautiously and that it turned out to be something flattened and it didn't feel like it was coming from a real place. So were you conscious of the criticism from The Help as you were writing Calamity? Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I wrote The Help, it was just me kind of pouring my heart out onto the page with no expectations of me.

6:26And I didn't think anybody was going to read it. And I had 60 rejections from agents to back that up. And when I sat down to write the second one, instead of just me sitting in a room with the page alone, this time it was me in a room with all those readers and all those critics in that room kind of staring me down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With expectations. With expectations. With expectations. What are you going to do now? Right. Yes. You've said, I'll probably get in some trouble for this one, a fate I'm drawn to. Above all, the story embraces a woman's right to determine her own fate, which feels increasingly relevant these days.

7:09Why do you think you're drawn to getting in trouble? Oh, that's a great question. Who knows? I was just born this way. I feel like I've been in trouble most of my life for something. Yeah. And I think it also has to do with the fact that I, you know, I have a sense of humor and I'm going to always search for the humor in some of the darkest moments. And I don't see how people get through life without looking for the humor. And it's, you know, sometimes it works for me. Sometimes it kind of I'm told I'm very hard to be married to. Is that what your ex-husband said? Uh-huh. Yeah. So tell me this.

7:56You were saying the criticism from The Help did shape how you started to approach this story and write this story. Were you finally able to let that go, to shake that off, and just delve into the lives of these women you've now written about in Calamity? Um, after many faults starts writing this story, I got fired. My publisher fired me because it had taken me so long because I guess the material wasn't something they wanted. And that was the old version. That was the vanilla version. Yeah. And I really, I felt like I had let down myself. I felt like I'd let down my family. Because you were still operating out of fear?

8:45Yeah. And criticism. When I got fired, when I lost my contract, I really felt like I had failed everybody. And there's something, I guess, scrappy inside of me that, you know, if you kick me when I'm down, I'm going to come out of that a little bit wiser and a little bit braver. And once that happened, I was able to sit down and write the whole book over from a very fresh perspective. So I want to talk about the story without giving too much away. I have to say, I've now given this book to so many of my friends who say, I wish it wouldn't end. I could not believe how many times I laughed. I could not believe these characters.

9:31Would you set up the characters in plot? Because as I was saying earlier, I am drawn to stories with coming-of-age Southern girls. And Meg is a character like we've never seen before. Well, thank you. I really like writing in the voice of a child because a child can see through the bull. Yes. Can I say that? Yes, you can. And they're going to speak truths that sometimes an adult loses sight of. So because of the plot of this story, sort of the punchline, so to speak, that you know what it is, I also needed an adult narrator. So I was able to mix the two narrators, the 11-year-old girl and, you know, the 24-year-old kind of old maid, unmarried woman also from Mississippi.

10:23And I felt like that way I could give two perspectives of one story. And so I love this passage about young Meg's life in the orphanage. On page 127, you write, Sometimes I feel old. Oh, this is what Meg is saying at 11 years old. Sometimes I feel old, old in my skin and my bones. I remember when I turned nine at my mama's house, I could still feel a little eight left in me. But when I turned 10 in this place, there was not any nine left to spare. Now I'm afraid I might already have used up the rest of my 11 and most of my 12 too. So I just love that line. How do you come up with, I could still feel a little eight left in me?

11:03I don't know. Who knows where, you know, the muse speaks to you, how the words come. I don't know. I wish I did. Meg suffers abuse at the orphanage, and she describes it this way. It's like she's trying to whip the hope out of me. All the while, she's whispering dirty, filthy girl. After 15 licks, Miss Garnett sits down in the chair panting. She only quits because her arm gets tired. Were these scenes difficult for you to write? Not difficult, but that line, I wanted the reader to see firsthand that sometimes you can't whip the hope out of somebody. Genuine hope is powerful. Yeah. On page 136, you write this about how Meg feels.

11:50All this noise inside us and we can't make a sound. I felt like so many young girls, boys, people feel this way. Those 11 little words speak volumes for so many people in similar situations. So you were saying that for her, but saying it also for so many people. So many people that have been silenced, that don't have the chance to speak up. I guess it's why I write. Yeah, yeah. To have a chance to say my piece. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast.

12:35It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button. And that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening. Time for a quick break. When we come back, readers share their favorite moments and what had them LOL-ing. That's next. This episode of The Oprah Podcast is sponsored in part by Bolin Branch. There's a moment, and if you've been running on empty for years, you know exactly what I'm talking about, where sleep stops being a luxury and starts being the thing that holds everything else together.

13:17Between work, appointments, and honestly, just life, I was the last one on my own list. But as they say, you cannot pour from an empty cup. And it starts the night before. That's why I switched to bowl and branch. My old sheets, pilling, slipping off, and somehow always too warm. Now, I feel the difference the second I get into bed. Softer than anything I've owned, breathable, and honestly, they've gotten even softer after washing. I added the comforter and waffle blanket too, and now my bed actually feels like somewhere I want to be. Bowlin Branch is certified organic cotton built for real rest and built to last.

13:48Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15 % off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com slash oprapod with code oprapod. That's Bowlin Branch, B-O-L-L, and branch.com slash oprapod, code oprapod to unlock 15 % off. Exclusions apply. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast. I'm talking with best-selling author Catherine Stockett about her new novel, The Calamity Club. Oh, is it a hoot. It's both poignant and laugh out loud for real funny. I know you're going to love it. Great for this summer reading. Now back to the conversation. So you knew you had to, so if you were having Meg, you know you needed an adult to be a counterpart for what comes later on in the story.

14:33All that crazy calamity stuff that happens. But where did she actually come from? When did you first hear her voice? Oh, probably from my own daughter. Just hearing that childhood voice and saying things to me that, you know, you wonder, where did you come from? Yeah, where did that come from? Yeah. Yeah. And so how did she start to form? And did she start to speak to you? And did you write every day? I did. I wrote almost every day, every day that I could. Yeah. So now you've been fired. You've lost your contract. Yeah. But you're still going to write the book, even though you don't have a contract.

15:09I don't give up easily. I got to say, I'm really stubborn. So when I got fired, it kind of put a fire under my ass to prove them wrong or something. It took me a minute to get out of the bottom of the drain. The success of this book is going to be the best revenge for the publisher that fired you. I can't even believe it. Well, it was fun to write. It was fun to write. It was. It was painful. It was fun. Yeah. All right. We gave a few lucky readers the copy of The Calamity Club. And Jamila is joining us now from North Carolina. Jamila, hi. Hello. So wonderful to meet you, Oprah and Catherine. Oh, Jamila, I'm so excited to hear your take on this story.

15:55I love this story. I'm a Southern girl, too. I'm from Mobile, Alabama. And Catherine Mobile got a tiny shout out in the book. Yeah. And just really reflecting on this time and places I've been and visited because I grew up on the Gulf Coast. So all those areas, Biloxi, Jackson, New Orleans, Oxford, very familiar to me. And it was a wonderful kind of flashback into time for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, I gave this to three of my Southern friends who were just over the moon. They couldn't even. I think there's everybody's going to love the book. But I will tell you that if you were a Southern woman, I think it resonates more deeply.

16:33I don't I'm not sure why. Jamila, can you tell us why? I think it's because you know these stories. So my grandmother, she grew up cleaning white people's houses. Yeah. And so some of these stories were very aligned. And Ophelia in the book kind of reminded me a little bit of my grandmother. So I think we have some some ways we relate to it. Very real. Yeah, me too. My grandmother grew up cleaning white people's houses in Mississippi, so I understand very much. Do you have a question for Kitty? I do. So tears welled up in my eyes at the end. I was so happy and excited for Charlie and Meg. But I must tell you, I honestly was like, what has happened next with the rest of them?

17:16What happened with Birdie and Jack? And do they have a future together? What about Rory and his second stint in New Orleans? What about Garnett? does she get retribution for what she did? What about Rory? Like, again, what happens when he comes out? There's so many characters, right? Yeah. And were you worried? I was so worried that when Jack found out what Birdie was doing, he would then sort of think that she was some kind of soiled woman or something and wouldn't want to be around her if he found out that that's what she was doing. I was very worried about that. Were you worried? Especially after the gift he had given her, which we won't give away.

17:52Yes. Right? I was like, this is going to be a terrible revelation for him. But what a way he handled it. Yeah, what a way. I hope we'll enjoy that just like we did. What a way. And were you worried, too? Were you worried, too, Jamila, that the sheriff was going to come every night? Yes, yes. I just could not imagine how, again, when they were going into town, too, for anything, to mail a letter, to get food. I was worried. Like you, I was just hoping, can we make it to the next day? And I couldn't believe they used their bedroom. I couldn't believe it either. And the whole, we just need to make it a few more days.

18:27And then when it got to that last day, Oprah, I breathed a sigh of relief. Like, we made it. Yeah. We made it. We can shut it down. No, but what about when the man's coming down the stairs, the man's coming down the stairs and she realizes what's going on in the house? What about that? And Mrs. Hart? Oh, my gosh. I was worried. What about that? Oh, just really, it was so much going on. I thought Mrs. Hart's going to have a heart attack when she realizes what's going on in this house. Exactly. But you see so much maturation in all the women, given the times. Yes. And I think there was a way she came to appreciate what needed to be done.

19:01Desperate times call for desperate measures. Absolutely. So I know you have a question, but tell me, did you have a favorite character? I think, like you, everyone loves Meg, but I really did like Birdie. I identified with, you know, kind of her having to be a heroine in so many ways. She's, you know, she never made it back home from what we saw, right? Which is why I'd love to know what happens next. And so you kind of gave me the end to ask, are we thinking about a sequel? I really want to know what happens to some of these other characters, Catherine, because while we know Charlie and Meg are probably hopefully doing well together, what about Esmeralda?

19:39What about Garnett? What about Rory? What about Birdie and Jack? Let me just say, y 'all are the best readers. Y 'all are a writer's dream. I don't know if there's going to be a sequel. I kind of doubt it. I don't want to put too hard of a finish on, you know, a story. And I like to leave, you know, leave the reader wandering a little bit. But Kitty, but Kitty, but Kitty. You know, you can do what Elizabeth Strout has done with all with, you know. She's such a great writer. Yeah, all of Kidditch. Yeah. And everybody in that town ended up having, in some form or another, their own story and were in other books.

20:21I mean, there is no reason, Kitty, that you cannot continue this story with these characters moving on. I mean, literally, what happens to Birdie and Jack and Birdie and Jack's family or any of the other women? Don't you agree? Don't you agree, Jamila? I completely agree. I mean, even some of the offshoot parts, like Lucille. What happens to her? What happens to the Heidelbergs? Like you have so many places you can take this, Catherine. So my vote is for a sequel, but absolutely up to you. Thank you. Absolutely up to you. Thank you. Thanks for your enthusiasm. Thank you. Okay. Don't you want to pass it on to everybody?

20:57Don't you want to say everybody? Absolutely. I think everyone should read this. And while it seems daunting, right, with the number of pages, once you get going, it just moves, Catherine. It's you can't put it down. Or then you like you said, Oprah, you want to put it down because you're almost scared. What's going to happen? Yes, yes, yes. It's such a delight. So I hope everyone picks it up and gives it a read. It actually, I think, left me with less judgment of women's choices to do what they need to do until they can do what they actually want to do. Did you feel that too, Jamila? I did. You know, there's a character that has to leave her job because of men, right?

21:34And men taking opportunities. And juxtaposing that with what the ladies in the C Club had to do, right? I think it absolutely gives you that confidence and knowing, listen, everyone should read the story and take away from do what you have to do. And women have been doing it for years. And it's a reminder of how important it is to walk with conviction as women to keep moving forward. To keep moving forward. Jamila, thank you. Thank you. All right. Spread the book story around. Thank you. The Calamity Club. And so are you one of those writers that has a schedule? If I don't write almost every day, I lose my momentum.

22:09Mm-hmm. I'm a big believer that the voices are always there. I have to clear my schedule. I have to clear my palate just to be able to hear them. And, you know, it's kind of like just because you turn off the radio doesn't mean the music stopped playing. So, yeah, if I lose my thread and I lose my frequency. Because you got so much criticism, well, not so much, but you got criticism after The Help was such a great success. So you get criticism for writing about black women because you were a white woman. Did you decide, okay, well, I'm only going to write about white women? I've really tried. Yeah.

22:48I really tried. But you can't write about white women in the South without putting some black women in there. This is true. And especially in Mississippi. In Mississippi. 50-50. And so how did, were you worried about that? Absolutely. Bringing the black characters in? I'm still worried. Yeah. I'm still worried. I'm a Southerner. I was born to worry. Yeah. And what are you worried about? Just the same things that happened with the help, you know. I am a white woman, and it's, you know, it's a story about white people and black people and the relationships that they have, the help was. And a little bit in this one, too.

23:27When that criticism came, were you hurt by it? Were you, you say you were shocked by it. I was surprised. Surprised by it, yeah. Yeah. Did you feel that that criticism was valid? It was, you know, told from the perspective of only through the white eyes. The white gaze. The white gaze, exactly. And I'm a white woman. The screenplay was written by a white man, a good friend of mine. But at the same time, for a lot of people in America, it was a first step. It was the first introduction to the complexities of the relationships between blacks and whites in the South. And do you feel differently now about who is allowed to tell what story?

24:19I don't try to overanalyze it very much. All I can say is that as a writer, I don't really have control over what I write. I write with my heart. The voices come out of me. Well, some people say you obviously have control over what you write, but you're saying you don't have control in terms of what your heart wants to speak to. That's what I hear you saying. Yes. Yeah. That's true. And I've wondered sometimes if maybe the issue wasn't that I wrote the help, it was that it became such a success. Maybe that was the problem. um it's hard to think about telling an artist no no that's not allowed you can't create that yes that's crossing the line yes yes but again because where will we be if if artists aren't allowed to express what's inside them and some say that the role of art should make you a little uncomfortable i see both sides okay let's talk about the calamity club i think readers will feel transported back to the South in the 1930s from the slang to the language to the clothing.

25:35How did you craft that? I had to do a lot of research. I had to do interviews. I looked at a lot of Eudora Welty's photographs and read her stories. I had to really immerse myself in the time. And I think I got most of it right. I really wanted the reader to feel like the air of the time and feel, just feel like, know what it felt like to be a woman in 1930 in Mississippi. Where did all of these women come from? I mean, it's a cast of characters in this story. How did this story come to you, Kitty? All I can say is that my characters kind of tell me what they're going to do. I go into writing a story knowing maybe about 10 % about what's going to happen.

26:24So what did you know of Calamity Club? First of all, where'd that name come from? Well, Mark Twain uses it, and I thought it was just a great word of the time. Calamity. Calamity. It's a calamity. And, you know, the C Club has a little special meaning to me as well. and, you know, if you read the book, you'll stumble across that. But I don't know. Where do we get these ideas? All these voices in my head. Do they come one at a time? Do they come as a group? I don't know. They just show up and they tell me what they're going to do. And sometimes they say that they're going to do this. And I say, no, you're not.

26:58I don't want to write that. And then what do they do? They go do it anyway. Okay. So Meg came to you because of your daughter. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Birdie came from where? I think Bertie came from me. Okay. Just someone who speaks her mind and often gets in trouble for it. Okay. Charlie, Meg's mother is in prison, declared unfit and, you know, sterilized against her will. In your research, you discovered in the 30s, so many women were often diagnosed as the word that you used in the book, feeble-minded or promiscuous. And what else did you learn about women in that period? So much. Tough time to be a woman.

27:40I don't think there's been enough written about this subject. But in the 1920s and the 1930s, the eugenics movement was just starting to heat up. And the idea was that by sterilizing certain people, they could cleanse the population of what they called undesirables. And these were people that might have epilepsy, that might have autism, people that they perceived as having a lower intelligence. They thought by sterilizing them, they could stop the procreation of these types of people. And the one that really stood out to me was that in Mississippi, a woman could be sterilized for being promiscuous.