Oprah and Misty Copeland on Her Remarkable Life & Career that Transformed Dance & More

0:00This episode of the Oprah podcast is presented by Walmart. Do you feel that it is obviously your training, obviously the work, but there's also something watching you is like something divine is also happening? I've felt that from the moment I started dancing, that it has been something that I've needed. It's been a part of my survival. It's been a part of the way that I've escaped, you know, so much adversity throughout my life. Hey there, and thank you for listening. and watching the Oprah podcast. And hello to all of you who are seeing us on YouTube. Really glad to be here with you all today.

0:42I am in my tea house with a, what is the word? You are a phenomenal woman in the greatest sense of the word and everything that Maya Angelou meant when she wrote that poem, phenomenal. You're also a trailblazer who has transformed the face of ballet, of dance and so much more. She is a transcendent talent, Misty Copeland. She was the first black female principal dancer at the illustrious American Ballet Theater. And now, after 25 years, I like that number, she's taking her final bow. She's written over 10 books and in two new children's books, Letters to Misty and Bunhead's Act Two. She shares the lessons that kept her on her toes, literally, while making history.

1:31Welcome, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I know. All these years, we've never, never. How did that happen? I don't know. I think we did something with you on the Oprah show about remembering your spirit or super soul or something we did, but I wasn't there. But I wasn't there. So we're recording this conversation. It's September right now. and your retirement gala, which I have agreed to be on the board as a co-chair for, and I did that just so I could meet you. And then this happens. The gala's in October. And so this podcast will be airing after that. After announcing her retirement, Misty Copeland took her final bow on October 22nd at the world-renowned American Ballet Theater, where she spent 25 barrier-breaking years of her life as a ballerina.

2:27I had the honor of co-chairing that gala on a starry night at the Lincoln Center in New York City. After her performance, Misty stood at center stage and received a 15-minute standing ovation.

2:42So that would have been your first public performance in five years. So what's going through your mind now as you're preparing for it? you know, it's taken a lot for me to get back on stage. Because you've been off for? I didn't want to. I really, you know, have been struggling with what it means for me to be back on stage at this point in my career. And so... So it's been five years? It's been five years and it was my choice, you know, to kind of step back and just really reassess what it was, what it is I'm doing on the stage. You know, I've done so much throughout my career and, you know, represented, you know, my community and what it is to not fit a mold.

3:40And I feel like I've said so much and there's so much more work to be done. And I feel like that has to be done off the stage. And so it's that combined with a lot of things. You know, I think just burnout from having injury and being in pain for so many years that you kind of lose that sparkle, that passion for it. And so it's been really intense getting back to the stage, not just physically, but emotionally and psychologically. I mean, all of those things have to really be in sync and connected. You know, it's the same with - And now you're a mom. And now I'm a mom, which completely changes everything.

4:21My body is completely different and it's really a new body that I'm in, you know, approaching, doing the work I've done my whole life. But I feel like I've gotten over that hump of feeling frustrated or feeling, you know, that I'm doing this because I want to say thank you to all of the people who've supported me. But I'm at a point now where I want to do it for myself. and the final dance, the final dance with American Valley Theater. Yes. And I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really excited. Again, I feel like I've gotten over that hump where I'm not just kind of like hanging on by my fingernails because it's physically so difficult to get back into that kind of shape.

5:04But now I'm like, okay, I'm in a groove. I'm rehearsing the pieces that I will perform and they're all so meaningful to me. So it's like this beautiful love letter to my classical career and to American ballet theater. Psychologically, I understand that thing of, I remember making the decision after 25 years to no longer do the Oprah show. And it wasn't one thing. It was a series of things. It's like, I realized that I'd reached a point where I was asking the same questions and I could not muster the same excitement for what is that eyelash you're wearing? I mean, if I did another makeover, I mean, in the beginning I was excited about everybody and their excitement about the makeovers.

5:52And then I always just realized, I don't know another way to say that, that is coming from a true self. And I always wanted to not be doing it if it wasn't completely authentic. Right. Yeah. I completely relate to that. I completely relate to it. And, you know, I feel like I got to a place, it was in 2019, I got to a place where I just felt like, I always told myself, I guess similarly to you, that I wouldn't do it if I didn't feel... I said, I don't want them dragging me out with a microphone. No, not at all. And how did you know you were ready to step away? Mm-hmm. Um, my, the last performance I was supposed to, uh, dance was the lead in the ballet Giselle at the Kennedy Center, um, in DC.

6:44And it's one of my favorite roles. And I had injured my back and I had to pull out of the performance the morning of the show. And I remember feeling relieved, um, and not sad. And I was like, this is not a good sign. Um, and I really need to kind of step back and evaluate what's going on and why I'm feeling this way. You know, and I think it was, again, a culmination of, you know, 20 years of performing, you know, up until that point and dealing with a severe injury that, you know, I had a surgery on my tibia. I had a plate screwed in after six stress fractures. And even after having this surgery, I was still performing in a lot of pain.

7:27And I just feel like I got to a point where that excitement kind of wore off and that, you know, working towards this goal of becoming a principal dancer. And now I was just exhausted in every way, you know, especially mentally and emotionally exhausted to have to muster up that energy to get on stage and rehearse, you know, day after day. And again, I just felt like, I feel like being a black body on the stage, I've done what I needed to do. And now there's so much other work that needs to be done off stage and behind the scenes and sitting on boards of these, you know, theaters and institutions that don't have artists and don't have black women.

8:10And that my voice, I think, will have an impact in a different way by not being on the stage anymore. I can't imagine. I don't think anyone else who's watching us or listening to us can imagine the physical pain and the emotional preparation necessary to do what you do. I mean, what you were just saying, you know, your tibia is shattered and you're still dancing and you're in pain. And when you're doing that to us, it looks like you're actually in another world that something comes over you or comes into you that allows you to be what you are on stage. Do you feel that? That it is obviously your training, obviously the work, but there's also something watching you is like something divine is also happening.

9:06I've felt that from the moment when I started dancing, that it's been so much more to me than just going out there and having fun or because I'm good at it. It has been something that I've needed. It's been a part of my survival. It's been a part of the way that I've escaped, you know, so much adversity throughout my life. And so whenever I would, whether I was in a ballet studio or performing on a stage was the first time that I felt this sense of security and safety that no one could do anything to me when I was up there on the stage and something took over. And it's literally like your toe crosses that threshold between backstage and, you know, the sidelines before you get on stage.

9:59And I become the character as soon as I'm out there. And all of that pain and all of those worries and distractions go away. But your body can only tolerate that for so long. So long, yeah. You put your body through a lot. I imagine in your own personal meditations, however you do that, you have a lot of gratitude for your body holding up the way it has. Yeah. Even more so now. At 43 and having my son Jackson, I'm in a completely different body than I was at 17 when I joined American Ballet Theater. And I have so much gratitude for this body getting me to where I am and having the strength and the resilience and power and vulnerability that it has.

10:50What's it going to feel like to take that last bow from that last dance? The closer I get to it, the more emotional it is. A year ago when I was asked to to do it. I just felt like it's been five years. I've already really mourned and processed so much. The company is different. So many of the dancers that I grew up with are no longer there. So I felt very removed from it. But now that I'm back in the theater, in the studio, and where I grew up, it's kind of bringing up not even these memories or emotions from, you know, five years ago. But like back when I first joined. Really? It's very interesting that that's what is coming up.

11:38You know, being 18, 19 years old and first entering into the company. And I think this sense of, you know, as you were saying, gratitude for the opportunity and for this life that I've been given because of ballet and the person that I've become because of ballet. Are you nervous at all? I'm not. Of course not. I'm not. I've never been someone that really gets nervous. So to me, it's like I'm the most comfortable and I feel the most myself when I'm on stage. So it's my whole life I've been nervous. And so these are the moments when I'm not. So I'm just really excited. After this quick break, Misty Copeland shares the moments and mentors that helped shape her remarkable rise as a pioneering ballet dancer.

12:28We've been hearing how Misty Copeland has lived her life dedicated to ballet. Our friends at Walmart want you to know they're dedicated to over-delivering for their customers this holiday season. This means more gifts for everyone on your list and more ways to get them delivered to you fast so you can spend more quality time with your loved ones all season long. Did you know the Walmart app is your ultimate holiday gift destination where you can find top brands at low prices? Whether it's a gift for the holiday party host or hostess, a secret Santa present for your co-workers, or must-have stocking stuffers for the whole family.

13:04With all the hustle and bustle over the holidays, Walmart has you covered with express delivery so you can get gifts to your door in as fast as an hour, right up to Christmas Eve. At Walmart Plus members, get free shipping on orders big and small with no minimum purchase all year long. How great is that? Walmart, who knew? Shop greatgifts at walmart.com or on the Walmart app. I'm back with the incomparable Misty Copeland, the prima ballerina who broke through barriers in the dance world. Let's get back to our conversation. I want to go back a little bit in your story because you have written about this before.

13:41But for those of you who don't know Misty's whole personal story, let's talk for a moment about your childhood because I think there are such lessons in resilience, in betting on yourself. And what I have come to know at this wisened, ripened age is that not one thing that ever happens to you or you or to me is wasted. So all the adversity, all the challenges, all the, you know, help to build the woman that you are. So tell us about growing up and your mom and your five siblings and living out of motels and the kind of place nobody would have thought you would have found a ballet dancer. Yeah.

14:36Yeah. I was actually born in Kansas City, Missouri. My mother was a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs football team. She loved movement and dance, but she really loved sports and athletics. And so the reason that she wanted to become a cheerleader was so that she could be on the field and watch the game. But so that was really ingrained in us. I think this love of music and of movement and kind of using our bodies. My mom left my father and picked up with me and my three siblings at the time and moved to Los Angeles. So I was two when I came to Los Angeles. And that was kind of the beginning of the chaos.

15:17You know, picking up and moving became this theme throughout my childhood. By the time I was seven years old, we would have six, there would be six children. And my mother had married two more times and divorced. and it was when I was introduced to the Boys and Girls Club at seven years old. It was the first time that I felt this sense of belonging and home, like a real sense of home because up until then, we were living in and out of other people's apartments and motels and my mother was just - Yeah, no stability at all. No consistency. Not feeling safe. Not feeling safe. There was abuse in the house and I became mute pretty much.

16:03I mean, I was so introverted and didn't have a voice and I didn't want people to know what was going on in my home environment. So I thought if I don't say anything, they won't know. Was it abuse to the kids or was it abuse to your mother? Both. And so that was my way of coping was just to not have close relationships and the Boys and Girls Club was the first time that I feel like I kind of started to break out of that shell and had this sense of safety. And the first time I was introduced to the word mentor and what it meant to have other - Boys and Girls Club saved so many lives. So many lives, which is why, you know, I'm still very much a part of that community.

16:43Yeah, it's one of the things that I did. You know, I've done a lot of things. I know you've done a lot of charitable things, but one of the things I'm most proud of is I went back to my community in Casiesco, Mississippi and built a Boys and Girls Club. No way. Yes. Oh, my gosh. In a Tallah County, Coziesco, Mississippi, there's Oprah Winfrey Boys and Girls Club. I have to visit that one because I have visited so many. Well, if you're going to Tallah County, I'm going to come join you. I love it. Okay. But yes, it's safe. And one of the reasons I invested in that is because it saves children's lives.

17:16You're meeting them where they are. Yes. You're meeting them in their communities. You're not pulling them out. you know there's I was surrounded by people who looked like me and understood where I was coming from in the community that I grew up in and so that was really the first time that I started to kind of feel like an individual apart from my siblings um and then as a young teenager you ended up moving in with my ballet teacher yeah with your ballet teacher it was at 13 on the basketball court at the Boys and Girls Club that I discovered ballet. And it was from that ballet teacher that I would live with, Cindy Bradley.

17:53Cindy Bradley. She was looking for diverse students to bring into her school on scholarship. And I happened to be one of them at the Boys and Girls Club. She said she thought I was a prodigy from the moment she touched my foot, she says. She saw me move and I went to her school on scholarship and it was really difficult for my mom she'd have a car to get me back and forth you know to the ballet school and that was far from a priority of hers with you know working two jobs and raising six children so my teacher offered to have me live with her and I ended up living with her for three years um so that I could really focus on the training since 13 is considered a late age to start dancing um and I would move to New York City after only four years to start dancing very late you see little girls are doing They were three years old.

18:39Three years old, yes. So after only four years of training, I was invited by American Ballet Theater to move to New York City and join their company. There was a moment where you were also invited to go to the Dance Theater of Harlem and you turned that down. And I think that, you know, that's a very prestigious company where you would have been surrounded by dancers who look like you, but you knew what? It was early on in my career. It was pretty recent, you know, after I had moved to New York and joined American Ballet Theater and it all hit me, you know, that I was the only black woman in the company, a company of 80 dancers.

19:24And I started to really lose myself and my purpose, I guess, and how I could contribute to this company. Like, where would my path go? And it was in that time that Arthur Mitchell, the founder of the Dance Theater of Harlem, he was also the first black principal dancer at the New York City Ballet. And he came into my life and he was mentoring me and he invited me to take company class with the Dance Theater of Harlem. And right there on the spot, he offered me a soloist contract, which was a huge deal for a 21-year-old who was in the court of ballet of American Ballet Theater. He said, why don't you come here where you don't have to worry about being different?

20:04You'll just be like everyone else. And I really thought about it. I went home and I thought about it. And I just felt like American Ballet Theater was my dream company. And if we don't take that step, how will we ever see progress and change? Yes. In these white companies. Yes. And so I turned him down. And I think it was... Were you scared to turn him down? Terrified. Yeah. I mean, he's a legend and he's offering me the opportunity of a lifetime. I would think that that would be very intimidating. It was very intimidating, but I knew that I had a bigger understanding of what it was I wanted to do.

20:44Even at 21? Yeah. Yeah. And you'd only been dancing at that point for eight years. Yeah. Yes. You say, in Letters to Misty, which is a beautiful book, and I'm going to have you sign one to my great nieces because I think it's wonderful if you're trying to discover yourself and trying to figure things out about your life. You say on page 19, being the only black woman at American Ballet Theater for the first 10 years of my career was incredibly tough. There were days when I questioned if I belonged. And you go on to say, I came to realize that if I didn't present myself with confidence, if I didn't act like I belong, then how could I expect anyone else to see me that way?

21:24How were you able to do this? You know, Arthur Mitchell had a big part to do with that, that understanding. I remember that first time I came into the Dance Theater of Harlem building and he said to me, you have to walk in this room like you are a queen, like you belong here because if you don't believe it, no one else is going to believe it. And it completely changed the way I thought about how I carried myself, that it wasn't just about how I performed on a stage, but it's how I'm always carrying myself. If you don't believe it, nobody else will. If I don't believe it, no one else will. And it definitely changed my perspective.

22:09I think that is the truth for so many people who now suffer from imposter syndrome. I think a lot of people don't believe it themselves and therefore see how other people don't believe it because that's also what they're projecting. And other people may not believe it. It doesn't matter if other people believe it as long as you believe it. I will tell you one of the reasons why I was able to be so successful in my business and in syndication is because when I did the contract and I said, I want 50 % if we get to this number, if we sell this many stations and if we get this. And they said, okay, you know why?

22:52Because they didn't believe it would happen. They didn't believe it. If they had known that it was going to happen, I would have never gotten that deal. So one of the dedications that you do in Letters to Misty, it reads, to your mentors and your teachers and your loved ones, you are the foundation of dreams realized. The foundation of dreams realized. and there's a man named John Meehan, who was the director of American Ballet Theaters Studio Company when Misty joined at just 16 years old, and he is now joining us on Zoom. Hello. Hello. Hello, John Meehan. What did you see in Misty at 16? What did I see?

23:42Well, I saw, I suppose you would say, endless potential. Endless potential. And she had the limbs to speak as a real ballet dancer. You know, we speak with our limbs, so they have to be a certain shape. Hers were outstanding, especially her beautifully arched feet. She actually pointed her foot. Was it Cindy Bradley who pointed it for Misty? Yes. And she said immediately, you're a ballet dancer, just from pointing her foot. But she had all of the basics. She was limber. She could turn. She could jump. She was a charming person, and it was as if somebody had given me a perfect canvas, a primed canvas, the best oil paints and best brushes, and said, here, make something wonderful.

24:29Wow. And we began, and we did, I think. Yeah, yeah. Wow. What has it meant for you to, John, watch Misty's career and the way she has navigated her place in the world? What has that meant for you to see that? First of all, affirm what you saw in her and affirm it at a level that you never even expected. I mean, because the world never expected this from her. I wasn't surprised that she became a principal dancer, and I think Misty knows that. I think I said it to her quite a few times. But did you believe him when he first said it to you, Misty? I did believe John, but it would change in the years after.

25:15Yeah. Well, when I kind of passed her along to the main company, I was able to stand back and watch her develop. It was very frustrating for me and for her that she had time away with injuries. And, you know, I think a little bit of that is because she started later in life. Even when you start very young, your muscles, sinews, bones, everything is getting a kind of a strength that Misty didn't have starting at 13. So she had to kind of battle that, I think, really your whole career. Would you say that's fair? Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I think it was a combination of things. I think also maybe not even, because I'd started later, I didn't maybe go to a professional ballet school, you know, one of the big companies and big schools, is that I didn't really understand how to take care of my body.

26:06I didn't really think of it as my instrument And, you know, what I was putting into it, how I was fueling it, how I was cross-training, all of those things. It was also natural to me that I just kind of did it. And, you know, John's belief in me, your belief in me was everything, you know, from a young age. But once I joined the company and I no longer had this almost parental father figure, you know, holding my hand. And you're kind of thrust into this adult world on your own now. It became very real, you know, what it was not just to be someone who maybe wasn't completely strong enough and ready, but also as a black woman who felt very alone, which I felt just made it a lot more difficult for me.

26:56John, thank you so much for joining us and saying hello. I love you. Yeah. I love you back. Thanks so much. Thanks so much. Thank you. I know Debbie Allen was also a mentor for you. Yeah. Yes. Debbie came into my life very early. Cindy Bradley, my first teacher, was very conscious and thoughtful about how she kind of prepared me in the best way she could to enter into the ballet world. You know, she was thoughtful of the fact that I was the only black girl for the most part at her school. And how am I going to prepare this young girl to enter into the dance world? So Debbie's such an icon. What did she model for you?

27:35Debbie came into my life and showed me what it was to lead. She showed me what it was to be proud of her community and where she came from and bringing her community with her everywhere she goes. She leads with joy and with love and community is always at the base of it. Absolutely. And I think what's so wonderful and one of the reasons why I know you wrote Letters to Misty is that you have this desire to give back and mentor in the same way that John and Debbie and Cindy and others have mentored you and to be able to be a voice for these young girls who are watching you and seeing the possibility of what might be for them through you.

28:26It's so vital. You know, I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't have the support that I had from early on in my career and throughout my career. And so I know how important it is to have that. Time for a quick break. Up next, Misty Copeland takes questions from listeners around the country. If you know someone who might take something away from this conversation, like Misty's lessons on resilience, please share the link with them. We'll be right back. Did you know the Walmart app is your ultimate holiday gift destination where you can find top brands at low prices with all the hustle and bustle over the holidays?

29:00Walmart as you covered with express delivery so you can get gifts to your door in as fast as an hour, right up to Christmas Eve. At Walmart Plus members, get free shipping on orders big and small with no minimum purchase all year long. How great is that? Walmart, who knew? Shop greatgifts at walmart.com or on the Walmart app. Hi, welcome back to the Oprah podcast. I hope Misty Copeland's story inspires you to recognize the power you have to uplift yourself and the people around you. If this conversation speaks to you, pass it on to a friend who may be in need of a little inspiration. We heard from a lot of our podcast listeners who want your advice.