Oprah with Jeremy Allen White & Scott Cooper on Creating Springsteen: Deliver Me from Nowhere

0:00So many people would come to me and say, Scott, my father never told me he loved me. My father never told me he was proud of me. I too suffer mental illness and thank you for showing me that if someone like Bruce Springsteen can struggle and get the help he needs so can I

0:24Hi there and thank you for joining me here on the Oprah Podcast On this episode I'm talking with Jeremy Allen White Now he is one of the most talented actors of his generation known for his role in Shameless and we all don't you just love him and the bear he's won three golden globes and two emmys for that role already and was just nominated for yet another golden globe for his portrayal of bruce springsteen earlier this year i saw springsteen deliver me from nowhere and i have to say that it's exquisite movie making and really a work of art it's the kind of movie that stays with you and keeps you thinking about it long after, as I still am.

1:06And it's an extraordinary look inside the life of Bruce Springsteen. I mean, so many people did not know that he has been through what millions of others have suffered with depression. And so this film is an exploration of his time when he was creating the album Nebraska. And recently, at the Santa Barbara Film Festival, uh we screened that movie and afterwards i sat down with jeremy allen white and the film's incredibly talented director scott cooper but first let me just tell you a little bit about this movie

1:48springsteen deliver me from nowhere is based on the book by warren zanes and takes place in early 1980s New Jersey, where Bruce Springsteen started his career. And in this film, it captures him right on the cusp of superstardom as he is writing and recording his stripped-down album, Nebraska.

2:25Jeremy Allen White is mesmerizing as Springsteen. During a chapter of his life, when he was going through a lot of inner turmoil, when he's trying to reconcile the pressure of success with the crushing weight of his relationship with his troubled father, who is played so hauntingly by Stephen Graham. What do you want?

2:52Just to hear your voice. From each other's hearts. In another captivating performance, Jeremy Strong is just brilliant, as Springsteen's dedicated manager and producer, John Landau. This is really a love story between these two men, in terms of friendship, support, and care for another human being. Hey, this is all too much. Let's just go back. Say the word. Oh, I'm okay. Just trying to find something real in all the noise. Both the film and its transformative performances are generating lots of Oscar buzz. Nebraska, Manchin, what they're doing with Atlantic City, it's not working, right? And these songs, you know they matter to me.

3:43So, everybody just saw it. Is this your first time seeing it? Everybody, first time? First time seeing it? Second. Their first time seeing it, I saw it for the first time at the Telluride Film Festival, and I was just blown away. I remember a woman sitting next to me saying at the end of it, does this mean I have to forgive my father? Yes, yes, I go yes, it's a sign, it's a sign. So let me ask you, when you saw it for the first time, after doing all of the work and the preparation, how did it leave your spirit or how did it settle in your spirit the first time? I felt so relieved the first time I saw the film.

4:28You know, I had about six months of preparation and it really took over. It was all I thought about for six months and I knew the responsibility, you know, I knew the weight. I thought very often about... Well, first of all, tell us, how did you get the call? And what does that call sound like? Who's on the other end of that call? I guess, what was it? I mean, Scott and I had gotten together to speak about what I didn't know. But I'd been a fan of Scott's for a long time. But you knew it was him? You wanted it to be him, yeah. I did, yeah. We were already thinking about that at the time? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

5:05Yes, okay. But he didn't share that with me. So we had a great lunch. He was just checking you out. He was, exactly, yes. And I just said, I hope we can do something together. And then I think a couple months later, I got a call from my agent first to listen to the record, to listen to Nebraska. And then I could sort of piece together what was coming. But I listened to the record. I'd heard it before, but not for maybe a decade or so. I was very affected by it. And then Scott and I spoke, and he sent me the script. I was really excited at the idea of portraying Bruce, but also very nervous, again, about just like those shoes, filling those shoes and what a presence he had.

5:54But I liked the in. I liked the story that Scott wanted to tell. I liked how specific it was. I thought there was an opportunity to do something, you know, very special there. Hey, the boys up there?

6:10Let's burn this place down, John. So you weren't scarred at all? No, of course I was. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I took a couple days to think about it because I wanted to make sure that I was the person to do it. I don't get every script and trust that I'm the one every time. I wanted to make sure and that took some time and I think Scott understood, you know, and wanted me to be sure as well and respected that. So it took some time to say yes. Well, Scott is one of those directors who elevates quiet struggle into cinematic poetry. You have done it again. Yeah. You've done it again. Thank you, Oprah.

6:56You know, you could have told a different kind of story about Bruce Springsteen. I mean, everybody, I think, was expecting the born in the USA biopic kind of story. Why did you choose this version? Yeah, that probably would have made things a lot easier. Born in the USA or the born to run story. And people had, quite frankly, asked Bruce if they could tell that version of his story since, I think, 1986. and he and John Landau have always said no. When I was reading Bruce's autobiography, a wonderful autobiography, Born to Run, most every chapter is quite lengthy, but the chapter on the making of Nebraska is about one page, maybe one and a half pages long.

7:43And when I got to know Bruce, I asked him why that was, and he said, well, it was just too painful. So then in reading Warren Zane's book, Delivered Me From Nowhere, I got a sense, and of course having seen Bruce's Broadway show, getting a sense of what really motivated Bruce to write Nebraska. And Nebraska is one of my favorite albums, certainly Bruce Springsteen albums, but one of my favorite albums in general. And it kind of was introduced to me by my father, to whom I've dedicated the movie. And that album came to me at just the right time in my life, kind of a disaffected teenager, wasn't quite sure of his place in the world.

8:22and those characters and the starkness and the power of that album really spoke to me. So when I read Warren's book about the making of Nebraska, and it was a very specific time in Bruce's life, a very intimate time in Bruce's life, the most painful chapter in Bruce's life when he was at his personal lowest, but at his creative best, because as you've seen, he's not only writing Nebraska, he was also writing the songs that would become Born in the USA. So Bruce was really probably writing some of the best material he's ever written. So all of that is what motivated me to ask Bruce if I could tell this story.

9:00And I think now that Bruce has, I just told Oprah this backstage, Oprah backstage, that Bruce has now seen the movie 13 times. And asked me yesterday if he could see it again. If he could get a link to it. If he could get a link to watch it at his house in Colts Neck, New Jersey. And so I knew the story meant a great deal to him. Bruce is a cinephile. He'd seen my movies, some of them several times. I think he maybe felt comfortable that I could tell this very personal and painful chapter in his life. And here we are in Santa Barbara. So when he saw it for the first time, tell our audience here what he said when he saw it for the first time.

9:50Yeah, he asked me to watch it with him, which I absolutely wasn't going to do. Yeah. Because, you know, John Landau, played by Jeremy Strong, said to me, he said, you know, Scott, this is the first time in 50 years that Bruce has handed the wheel over to anybody else. I mean, he's nicknamed the boss for a reason. Right. And the last thing I wanted was to watch Bruce Springsteen out of the side of my eye watching the most personal chapter in his life. So I'm pacing outside the Robert A. Iger building in New York City while Bruce and Landau are watching it. Bruce emerges. Was it Bruce and Landau and wasn't his sister in there too?

10:30Not the first time. Not the first time. The first time was just them. He's since screened it for his sons and his daughter and his sisters, the E Street Band, lots of friends. But that first time, those two hours felt like four. And I was pacing around lower Manhattan. And he came out. And he was visibly moved. He'd been crying. And he kissed me on the cheek. And he said, it's better than I could have ever hoped. And at that point, I was just like, oh, my God. That's great. Yeah. he told me about the time that he watched with his sister tell tell tell everyone yes he watched it with both sisters pam his younger sister and his his older sister virginia whom you see in the movie very briefly and he said that they both each grabbed a hand and they were crying midway through the film and then when the film ended and they were all embracing uh virginia said bruce isn't it wonderful that we have this?

11:31Yeah. Even though it's incredibly painful and the relationship with his father was so difficult and not much easier for his sisters. So for them to feel that way about the movie really means more than I can put into words.

11:54Daddy?

11:58Mom said it's time to go home.

12:04And outside. It feels like you immersed yourself in this character. It feels like you, you know, presented yourself fully embodied as Bruce. And we want to know what the process for that was. Did you listen to more than Nebraska? Did you watch Bruce's tapes? How did you get that Jersey soul swagger? Yeah, I mean, I think in the beginning, all I did was try to take in as much information as I could. I mean, it was interviews with him, it was concert footage, it was his discography. His book was obviously very helpful. I listened to his memoir over and over and over again for the months in preparation.

12:50Warren's book... Warren Zane. Yeah, Warren Zane's book, yeah, Deliver Me From Nowhere. And yeah, in the beginning I was just, you know, I had been aware of Bruce Springsteen, an admirer of Bruce Springsteen, but I wasn't incredibly knowledgeable. So I was just trying to take in as much as I could and kind of crossing my fingers that it was all kind of getting into me somehow. You know, I didn't take notes, I didn't have like any real structure other than trying to take it in as much as possible in those six months. And then as we got closer and closer to filming, my focus kind of narrowed. And it all sort of shifted and I started trying to, I guess, forget about Bruce Springsteen a little bit and approach the role as just that, the role of a young man, a musician, coming home after a long tour.

13:47And I think that's where I found my confidence is kind of trying to humanize the sort of icon. Okay, we can't let them make it something that it's not, right? No singles, no tours, no press, all right? We have to let this album breathe on its own. We might need to give the label something to work with. No, I don't even want to be on the cover, okay? I don't want to have to explain it. I don't even know if I can, all right? We're going to take a break. Next, I want to know what was more challenging for Jeremy, acting or singing like the legendary Bruce Springsteen? Can you imagine somebody calls and wants you to portray Bruce Springsteen?

14:28Be right back. Welcome back to my conversation with actor Jeremy Allen White, who's getting a lot of Oscar buzz for his authentic and mesmerizing, powerful portrayal of an American icon in Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere. Were you more challenged by the singing or the acting? I think the singing, obviously, was a skill that I didn't have already. Did you even play the guitar? I never played the guitar, and I never sang before. You never played the guitar before? No, no, no, no. So I was learning... You had to learn to play the guitar? Well, yeah, and I got together with... Well, yeah, okay.

15:04And the harmonica and sing. Well, I didn't learn... That's the thing. I got together with J.D. Simo, who's a wonderful guitarist out of Nashville, and I met with him five times a week for six months in preparation. The first time we met, I told him, you know, I'm so excited to learn how to play the guitar. And he said, we don't have time to learn how to play the guitar. I'm going to teach you how to play these four Bruce Springsteen songs. So I still can't really say I know how to play the guitar. But you know how to play those songs on the guitar. I learned how to play those songs and I learned how to hold that guitar confidently enough.

15:39Yeah.

15:49Oh, someday girl, I don't know when We're gonna get to that place We really wanna go We'll walk in the sun But till a chance like us Baby, we were born to run Say, chance like us Baby, we were born to run Oh, chance like us Baby, we were born to run Did you work with a voice coach? Yeah, yeah. I worked with a wonderful coach, Eric Vitro, who's a vocal coach and who helps a lot of these actors like me prepare to do roles like this where they have to sing. But finding Bruce's speaking voice was something that, I mean, I listened to him so often. So I think I understood the accent, but the tone of his voice really came to me.

16:39I mean, I lost my voice recording Born in the USA about a week before we started filming. and I didn't know if I was going to get it back in time for our kind of day one. I got it back, but when it came back, it was so gravelly. It was so kind of like lost. I loved the sound of it. And so I started screaming into my pillow every night before bed to sort of try to recapture that. And then that same vocal coach, Eric Vitro, found out I had been screaming into my pillow and he said, you have to stop that immediately. That's not allowed. So, you know, one of the things that Bruce said to me at the end of the, when I saw it in Telluride, he said, because we were all so moved by that, I know you were too, that final scene, that final scene with the son and with Stephen Graham.

17:32And Bruce said, every word of that is true. Come here. Sit on my lap. Huh? Come on. I'm soaking wet, Pop. I'm 32 years old. Come on. Did you and Steven Graham rehearse that a lot? It felt to us watching that there was this spontaneous moment. We know that there had to be rehearsal, but... Yeah, I mean, no, there wasn't much rehearsal to be... Yeah, no. But by design, I mean, I remember reading that scene, I knew that that was something that happened with Bruce and his father, but I remember reading it in the script and going, are we gonna be able to do this in a way that doesn't seem too uncomfortable or silly?

18:27Like is it gonna be grounded in something real? And I have to credit Scott and Steven. I mean, there was no way that that scene could have been taken any other way once we entered that room that day, which was a very heavy day in filming. It was towards the end of filming. We had a really big day. Stephen and I didn't discuss it even, really. I think we just, we knew what was necessary and we found it naturally and in the moment. you know talk about scott the decision to utilize black and white photography in the flashback scenes and how that contrasts with the color photography and what we can learn about bruce's memories and relationship with his past through that well as i was writing the screenplay i spent a great deal of time with bruce on tour or when he was off tour and he said to me scott i remember that time in my life only in black and white.

19:28And he would send me lots of images of him with his father and his sisters at seven, eight years old. Of course, they were all in black and white. That's why the cover of Nebraska is in black and white. All of the liner notes, images are black and white. The Night of the Hunter, the film that his father took him to was in black and white. It seemed to me to be the right choice. And Bruce thanked me for that. He said, because that's, how I always accessed those troubling moments in my life. So to contrast that to the 1982, it's handheld, a little more garage rock approach, because Bruce is unsettled and he's in disequilibrium.

20:12And the black and white is very formalist and on the dolly. And I told the story in an almost nostalgic way, even though the nostalgia is a father who's incredibly cold and callous toward his son. Except, especially that first moment when he walks into the bar. Yes. Yes. Yeah, and Bruce said on too many occasions throughout his life he had to extricate his father from a bar. And when he does it in Los Angeles in Chinatown, when his father has just been released from LA County Jail, the roles are reversed. And his father, who is suffering from schizophrenia, undiagnosed, doesn't have his medication, he's incredibly vulnerable, he's almost a child.

21:02Bruce said, I would always find my father at the end of the bar, for whatever reason. He said, but every time I would go, that's where he was. So it kind of mirrors the opening of that shot. But I remember specifically, just to speak on the last moment where he sits on his father's lap, I said, Bruce, what was the feeling of that? And it's a little bit like Jeremy described. He said, it was uncomfortable, it was awkward, and at times a little bit subconsciously funny, and then it became tender. So it's all the same things that you see in the scene, that when you have actors that are as good as Jeremy White and Stephen Graham, who really know how to take the subtext of my screenplay or anybody's screenplay, and really find those very genuine and honest moments, then you just have to get out of the way.

21:55You know, I drive a bus these days. Yeah, I know you do. But not that ain't no work today.

22:08There are so many genuine and honest moments. I remember Jeremy Strong telling me that he called Bruce and said, what is the song you would play for somebody if you wanted to save their life? And Bruce thought about it and then called him back and said, Sam Cooke. And then Jeremy came to you and said. Yeah, so the scene where just after Bruce is broken up with his love interest, Faye, and we find him, bags are packed, he's in the bedroom in his white T-shirt, looking incredibly despairing, and Landau finds him there. I had scripted a scene where they sit on the end of the bed and they talk about in a very subtextual way what the future holds and beautiful scene, nice scene, felt like it really captured what I wanted to and then Jeremy Strong called me the night before and said I have an idea, are you open to this and I was like I'm always open to ideas so the next day he has the props department put the boom box out in the bedroom.

23:18Let's just listen. Okay.

23:30If I walk in the pathway of duty I don't think you had any idea really what was coming, right? He said, I'm going to try something. Do you want to know what it is? And I said, no. And he said, okay, yeah. Yeah. And I remember from my first film, Crazy Heart, that starred Jeff Bridges, I remember that Jeff said to me, Scott, you'll never know where you'll find inspiration. It's like sometimes I'll be at craft service and somebody will give me a note and I'll take that into a scene. so Jeremy plays the scene with Jeremy White, Jeremy Strong and it's beautiful yes and we thought that it was and then you chose to use the flashbacks of young Bruce dancing with his with his mother I shall rest at the close of the day I shall rest at the close of the day for I know for I know They'll return for a way It was nice to see these two men who their bond was of music.

24:45I mean, that is how they got close in the beginning. They would listen to music and talk about music and I think it was nice to have, yeah, a moment of them enjoying music that wasn't Bruce's and Bruce trying to capture his sound and protect his sound. All that stuff is important to this story, obviously, but I think it was really nice to see these two men enjoy a song together and to see the closeness. Because their relationship is the central love story of the movie. Yeah, yeah. And it's that way now. Landau's support and love for him. I was just with them over the weekend, both of them together.

25:20And it's a remarkable relationship that's kind of unrivaled in all of rock and roll or any kind of genre of music. Still, still. Yeah, still. Last person as Bruce goes on stage, they put their heads together and kind of have a wordless moment. Bruce goes out for three and a half hours. Bruce comes back soaking wet. First person that he embraces is John Landau. Still to this day. 51 years. Yeah. I still think it's worth considering a change of scenery. Maybe a place in the city or something.

25:55Hey, dog. Hard to pry me out of my small town, Johnny. All right. After a break, the powerful reaction that moviegoers are having to the film. We'll be right back.