Oprah’s Greatest Conversations with Authors: 30 Years of Oprah’s Book Club

24:35And I always been brought up, Ms. Winfrey, to believe that the police wanted to get the right person. Yeah. But this day, for some reason, they just wanted a body.

24:48Tayari Jones:Because your mother raised you to, she's one of those strong black women, southern women. Yes. Believes in authority. Yes. Believed if you worked hard, showed up, things would turn out all right for you. Just tell the truth, tell the truth, and everything will turn out all right. Yes. Go to the police, the police will help you, is what she believed. That the police were the people to help you. Based on what I read in the book, you never went back home. No. I want you to take us to the courtroom after a year and a half has passed and you're sitting in the courtroom, and after the ballistics expert, who turns out to be blind in one eye and incompetent that your lawyer had hired, messes up so terribly on the witness stand, you knew then that you were going to be sentenced.

25:38Absolutely. So the prosecution crucified him. And when he asked him, did he know how to turn on the machine, he said, no, I had to ask for help. He said, and once they helped you, what did you see? He said, I didn't see anything but my fingers. He said, you never seen the bullets? He said, no, I finally seen them later on, but I seen just my fingers. Where did they get this guy who sounded like a buffoon? Off the street, I believe. The DA asked him, said, how much are you getting paid? He said, well, I might get$50. I may get$100. I don't know. I may not even get anything. I just come, did the lawyer a favor.

26:18And Ms. Winfrey then I swallowed. You knew it. I said, they're going to find me guilty. Because my case revolved around nothing but ballistics. Either they match or they don't match.

26:29Tayari Jones:Can you take us to the day you heard that the jury comes back in and they say guilty? Can you take us to that moment? Well, when they said guilty, I really lost sight for a few seconds. I was just told in shock. I wanted to know what did they find me guilty on. And to me, it wasn't nothing but a high-class lynching. And I often tell people, two white men came and arrested me, three white men prosecuted me, a white judge sentenced me, and a white jury found me guilty. Nothing but a lynching. And everything that I ever believed in.

27:25Take your time. Whew.

27:31Everything that I believed in and was taught as a child left me. I just somehow wanted to protect my mom. I didn't quite know whether she understood that I had been found guilty of capital murder and what that meant. And I didn't know, did she fully understand that more than likely this prosecutor was seeking the death penalty. And I kept saying, I need somehow to protect my mother.

28:08Tayari Jones:There was something you said around page 65. I wondered who would I be when this was all over. Everything good was being taken away, one small chunk at a time. Belief, family, truth, faith, justice. I wondered who I would be when this was all over. How could I be the same person? Would there be anything left after this trial? And what if they actually found me guilty? What then? Nobody believed me, and some days it felt like the whole world, except for my mom, was conspiring against me. Yes. You know, I had taken a polygraph test and passed and... And the polygraph test was not admitted? Not admissible.

28:49And I'm saying...

28:49Tayari Jones:And the man who gave the polygraph test said, this guy is innocent. Yes. This guy. FBI, a retired FBI agent. And he said, I never forget the lieutenant asked him, how did he do? He said, if I could go by this polygraph test, I would take him out of this jail tonight. And when I passed the polygraph test and the prosecution reneged on his words saying we could use it, if I passed and if I failed it, he could use it. It just sucked every ounce of energy, every ounce of belief, everything out of me. And how, I mean, if you've been taught that justice prevailed and the truth will come to life, I didn't see being convicted.

29:35I thought it meant then in the courtroom. I didn't know that I was going to spend 30 years later before the truth come out. I didn't have that.

29:44Tayari Jones:It's unbelievable. It's unfathomable. And so there were some dark nights of the soul. You went immediately onto death row. Yes. And you stopped speaking, literally. Three years. You did not speak. Did not speak. Every time an officer would say, what is your name? What is your social security number? What is this? I just wrote it down and gave it to them. And for three years, they thought I couldn't talk. It was as though God had taken my vocal cord and I couldn't talk. Ms. Winfrey, when I tell you, I didn't even realize that I could have so much anger inside of me because of what had been taken from me.

30:31Yeah. And I went in this hell hole and I just knew.

30:37Tayari Jones:I was trying to figure out what does time become? Time becomes... Are you counting the days? Is there like calendar time in your head? Do Tuesdays or Wednesdays or Thursdays or Fridays matter? No. If it's May or if it's December, does it matter? No. Time is nothing like it once were. In fact, time don't even exist. because you're in a place where when daytime is at the end, they're going to come get you. Yeah. And they're going to scrap you down in the chair or the gun. And as it turns out, your cell was just 30 feet from the death chamber where men would have to take the walk down your hallway with, what, eight other cells.

31:31Tayari Jones:Eight. Eight other cells, top and bottom, and walked to the death chamber. And when they were killed, you could smell their flesh burning. And in your time there, you witnessed... Fifty-four. Fifty-four men and one woman being executed. Executed. And of all the 54, I asked the guard, I said, officer, is there anything you can give me so I won't have to smell the flesh burning? Flesh burning. That officer looked at me and he said, no, there's nothing I can give you. And if there's a consolation to it, he said, you'll get used to it. and one day somebody will smell your flesh burning. And it was at that moment, that very moment, that I escaped up here.

32:35I had to. And I often tell people, I kind of understand why about loving me and took their own life. If you can't escape up here... In your head. It's over.

32:50Tayari Jones:You can't survive. Yeah, if you're just dealing with that every day, the reality of being in this 5x7 cell. So what broke it for you? It was someone crying in the night at first, was it, Noah? It was a man who had lost his mother. Yeah. He was wailing, wailing, wailing, wailing. And this is a man that I had lived by for three years and never asked him his name, where he was from, or anything. I wasn't there really to get to know anybody. I wasn't there to make friends. All I knew I was there for something I didn't do. And when I heard this man crying, at an early age my mom had taught me compassion.

33:34And it was that compassion that I hollered through this brick wall, and I got up to the front of the door and I yelled out with my voice. And I said, hey, is something wrong over there? It took him a while to reply. and he finally said, I just got worried my mother passed. And I told him that I was sorry to hear that other men was listening. They holler, hey, I'm sorry as well. And I told him a corny joke and we kind of laughed just a little bit to try to break it. And I laid back down and the next morning, I realized my voice was back as well as my sense of humor and I ain't looked back since.

34:16I used disappear to go wherever I wanted to go and made as many people I could laugh.

34:22Tayari Jones:And you say in The Sun Does Shine, you say, I wondered why it is that the cries of another human being, whether it's a baby or a woman in grief or a man in pain, can touch us in ways we don't expect. I wasn't expecting to have my heart break that night. I wasn't expecting to end three years of silence. It was a revelation to realize that I wasn't the only man on death row. I was born with the same gift from God we are all born with, the impulse to reach out and lessen the suffering of another human being. It was a gift, and we each had a choice whether to use this gift or not. What I knew, when you're hanging at the end of your rope, does it really matter what color the hand is that reaches up to help you?

35:07Tayari Jones:What I knew was that he loved his mother just like I love my mother, and I could understand his pain. Absolutely. And the fact that mine was still alive made me appreciate her more and made me understand his loss even more. That first night when there was somebody crying on death row and then you ended up making a joke and recognizing that they lost their mom and had compassion and then the men started speaking to each other for the first time, right? And then you later found out that one of the people that you had been speaking to and had befriended was a man named Henry. Yes. Can you tell me about Henry?

35:46Well, Henry was a Klu Klux Klansman, so... His daddy was a grand wizard in the Klan's organization. And after I got to learn the story, Henry's father was upset that a black man had got found not guilty in a murder trial, and he ordered them to go out and kill the first black man that they came across. And they came across a 19-year-old, I think it was 19. And they befriended him, got him somehow, tricked him in the car, and they hung him and cut his genitals off. And I, when Henry was...

36:21Tayari Jones:This is in 1980-something, right? Yes. Yeah. And as I got to know Henry and realized, I didn't know who I was talking to. So you all are just voices in the day and night? Yes. Because nobody can see anybody on the row. And what I learned about Henry is that Henry had been taught to hate all his life. And myself, along with some other blacks, we didn't judge Henry because everybody was there for accused of killing someone. And so Henry and I became friends and I kept wondering. Was it difficult to become friends with a man who you knew had been accused and found guilty, not just accused, but is on death row for lynching a young black man?

37:08Tayari Jones:It was not. It was not. Why was it not? It was not because I personally didn't know had Henry done that. I was there on death row for something I know I didn't do. So I couldn't just judge by him being guilty. And I never did ask him, did you do it? You didn't. I never did ask him that. I just feel that wasn't my business. And if you did it, that's between you and your God. And let me say before I end this, death row is the only place that I will be in where I didn't never witness racism. And I often thought about that. Why is it that I never witnessed racism here? It's because all of us had the same sentence, sentence to death.

37:48We went to bed with the death sentence over our head. We woke up with the death sentence over our head. We all wore the same clothes, the same tennis shoes, the same whatever. We all ate the same thing, so it wasn't no difference. It wasn't no need to be jealous. there was no need to be racist. We all was there to die. And we all had to become and somehow become each other support system. So much so that you created a book club.

38:16Tayari Jones:Yes. I'm very proud of my book club. I'm very proud of mine. You had your own book club. Yes, I did. What gave you the idea for the book club? The fact that you were able to, in your own mind, go anywhere you wanted to, right? And you thought books would help them do it. I heard you all read James Baldwin. Yes. Go Tell It on the Mountain. Yes. I loved James Baldwin, but I also read other books like Your Blues Ain't Like Mine, or Go Tell It... To Kill a Mockingbird. To Kill a Mockingbird. You wrote that we are all slowly dying from our own fear, our minds killing us quicker than the state of Alabama ever could.

38:58Tayari Jones:Yes. Men would do all kinds of crazy things rather than spend another night with their own thoughts. Bring in the books, I thought. Let every man on the row have a week away inside the world of a book. I knew if the mind could open, the heart would follow. It had happened to Henry. Look at him sitting here in a locker room with five black men who had nothing to lose. He'd been taught to hate us and fear us so much that he had thought it was in his rights to go and find a teenage boy and beat and stab and lynch him just because of the color of his skin. I had no anger toward Henry. He had been taught to fear blacks.

39:39Tayari Jones:He had been trained to hate. Death Row had been good for Henry. Death Row had saved his soul. Death Row had taught him that his hate was wrong. Yes. He died knowing that. He died. And what I loved on the night of his execution, they ask you two things. What you want for your last meal. and do you have anything you want to say? And I was told that Henry said, all of my life, my father, my mother, my community taught me to hate. The very people that they taught me to hate are the very people that taught me how to love. And tonight, as I leave this world, I leave this world

40:29knowing what love feels like.

40:35And I often say that if we can teach people to hate, we should be able to teach them to love. Yeah. And I fought society. I fought this, it take a village to raise a child, and I often asked, what was this village when this young boy was being taught to hate. What was this village when? He needed him the most. And so that book club and the fact that we treated Henry no different, I really believe Henry left this world a better man than he came in.

41:12Tayari Jones:I know for you, and certainly as I read the book, one of the deepest sorrows is that your mother didn't get to see you free and that the last time she saw you and every time she heard your voice, she said, son, when are you coming home? Yes. When are you coming home? She would ask me that, and I lied to her every time she asked me. Mama, they're working on it. They're just going to take some time. And at some point, I didn't know what my mother was trying to protect me. I knew I was trying to protect her in the truth. and I couldn't save mommy next year or next month. And the night I found out that my mom had died, I really didn't give a damn whether I live.

42:08Because I truly believe that my mom died of a broken heart.

42:15Tayari Jones:Yeah. I guess in some way I feel like she, I often say she got tired of waiting. Yeah. And she left this world. And that night I had called Mr. Stevenson and I talked to Mr. Stevenson. Oh, yeah. I said, I don't give a damn about this case. and I said my mom gone and I don't see myself in this world without my mom and without saying thank you, without saying I appreciate it, I just hung up. And that night as I tried to sleep, it was as though my mom came in the cell and stayed in my ear all night long. And I could hear her saying, I did not bring you up to be a quarter. And that night, I could hear my mom telling me,

43:12Tayari Jones:that she was disappointed in me. Because you had been thinking about killing yourself. You were thinking about killing yourself after finding out that she had died.

43:26In the early that morning, I called Mr. Stevenson. And then I said, Mr. Stevenson, I want to apologize for hanging up, but I had a moment of weakness. I want you to give the state of Alabama all the hell you can give.

43:43Tayari Jones:Mm. Finally, after Bryan Stevenson and the Equal Justice Initiative taking on this case, 16 years later, after they took on the case, you finally are released after he goes to the Supreme Court. Yes, ma 'am. and he was just asking the Supreme Court to review it. Yes. And in their review, they made a decision. Yes. What did you feel like that day? I cried like a baby right there in front of all the other inmates that I didn't know. And I got back on the phone, and I said, when? He said, I'm going to head back to Birmingham, and I can't tell you exactly, but I'm going to find out, and we'll know.

44:29And he said, I'm going to talk to the judge, and he did, and the judge wanted to keep me in one day longer. He said, no, I want him out as soon as possible. And I got out on Good Friday. And hadn't been to like a regular church in 30 years, and that Sunday I was able to go to my first Easter service. And every Good Friday is my anniversary. And so had it not been for Bryan Stevenson, God sending me his best attorney, I wouldn't be sitting here. I wouldn't be in this world. The state of Alabama knew that I was not the person they knew that going didn't match. And to this day, no one in the state of Alabama have had the decency to apologize to me.

45:15Tayari Jones:Would it mean something if they did? It would, for this reason. It matters to me that the victim family think that I'm still the person they killed their loved one. I think they deserve truth as well. and it would mean to me that for a society that believe in the death penalty, we do send innocent men and women to death row. And just to hear the authority, the system say we made a mistake, would mean a lot to me. And it won't give me back what I lost, but it would mean a great deal to me for them to say, we're sorry. We made a mistake and we promised. that we will not do this again. I'm here in Poland at the Auschwitz death camp, where it's estimated that 1.1 to 1.5 million people perished here in the Holocaust, most of them Eastern European Jews.

46:17It is here, right here, on this track, railroad track, leading into the camp, that a young teenage boy arrived in a cattle car with his family, friends, and neighbors in 1944. That young boy, Elie Wiesel, lived to bear witness to the evil of man. Prisoner A7713 from Siget, Hungary, Elie Wiesel, was just 15 years old when he was sent to Auschwitz. Years later, he would write his first-hand account in what has become one of the single most important books of our time, Night. Now a Nobel Peace Prize winner, prolific author, professor, world-renowned humanitarian and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel returns to Auschwitz to meet me and walk these hallowed grounds.

47:10When here, you will notice, the professor speaks very softly, allowing the silence to have its space. And as we walk, the memories seem to come in waves as he recalls that first night in 1944 at Auschwitz. What a place. Yeah, what a place. What a place. What is it even coming back now? Difficult? Each time I come, I try not to speak for a day or two or three. Just to go back and find the silence that was in me then. And I say to myself, how many of us did not live and simply vanished? Look at this place. The immensity of the place. It's a universe. And when you think of the numbers, a million, a million and a half people, just think country or a city that has a million and a half inhabitants and simply vanishes.

48:18And so I think of that. I come here and try to see the invisible and try to hear the inaudible. And I always see what I had seen the last time I was here. Do you think the ground, it carries its own energy here? It has the voices of the dead, do you think? Absolutely. I'm convinced of that. Some voices are still here. I think the souls are here. I think they listen. They cry. They warn. Look, this is the largest cemetery in recorded history. And what do you see? Nothing. Nothing. but the cemetery is in our heart yes it's huge it's huge I am stunned at the vastness of it, it's huge it was meant to be huge in order to receive so many millions of people

49:26I remember the first impression I had when I came it was at night and it was with all the lights on projectors, dogs, shepherds, German shepherds, assassin machine guns, predict the vastness of it. The vastness of the whole place.

49:46Tayari Jones:Yes. And we didn't know. That's the main thing. We had no idea what Auschwitz was. I never heard the word Auschwitz. Nobody knew what it meant. So if we had known, we would have run into the forest. So this is about where you arrived, right? Right here, that was the lamp, yeah. Where the platform was. And what did you think or imagine? Nothing. You saw the extraordinary horror of people with machine guns starting to shout. Literally a minute later, saying, first of all, families together. Then men alone. Didn't just time to say goodbye to each other. Men to the left, women to the right Eight words spoken quietly, indifferently, without emotion Eight simple, short words Yet, that was the moment I left my mother I didn't know that this was the moment in time and the place That I was leaving my mother and Sipora forever Where were you separated from your little sister and your mother?

50:53Yeah, I think yeah, yeah And my sisters, two older sisters, my grandmother and my little sister, I remember her, because she had a red coat that she got for holiday. A little red coat? Yeah. And that's when I saw them. I saw them disappear all of a sudden. We went left, they went right. They went to the crematorium. That was the crematorium. That was the crematorium. Yeah, yeah. But we had no idea. No idea. Even afterwards, we had no idea. When some inmates said to us, you see, these are not families, they looked and they said, the flames, we still have no idea. The mind refused to accept it. That it could be true.

51:42It could. It could. Well, I appreciate how in the introduction tonight you say that language became an obstacle in trying to describe it because there are no words. There are no words. they were throwing babies alive into the inferno of the ditches and you saw it with your own eyes that's what you write in my with your own eyes i began doubting i said i i cannot believe that it was true i i if so i would have lost my mind forever

52:22years later i was wondering what is it for these people

52:29inhuman but they were human and I said go on to us in those times it was human to be inhuman I have seen so many things in my life I still don't grasp it must have some meaning pales at me that evil can triumph we knew that

52:58that humiliation exists we knew that but of this it was a scandal on the level of creation I know I have no answers and all these many years later you still have no answers no answers now I have certain indications that suffering doesn't give any privilege. Yes. That's my... If I have moral philosophy, I don't think I should accept other people's suffering because I suffer. Just the opposite. Because I suffer, I don't want others to suffer. But this is not the answer. Well, you know, I'm trying to make sense of it all. It doesn't... It's a lot to take in. And it just... Even seeing it makes it more real, but I can't even get my brain around it.

54:03The death of one child makes no sense. Yes. The death of millions. What sense could it make? Except we are here. Now we know. Now we know. And I think that part of the reason for knowing is to, wherever it's happening in the world, for people to know, it's happening, it's happening, it's happening again.

54:36Whenever people could try to conduct such experiments in the case of other people. We must be there to shout and say, no, we remember. No, we remember. We're delighted to be in Maya Angelou's house celebrating a heart of a woman. Thank you, Miss Maya. Thank you very much, Miss Oka. Of all the places in this world, Maya Angelou's house is most like home to me. This is still where I feel most at rest, most at peace, and where I feel the greatest sense of my own possibilities. You just can't leave this home without feeling changed in some way and touched by Maya's wisdom. So tonight, I'm thrilled to get to share that special feeling with four women I know only through their letters.

55:23I was saying earlier to Maya, I couldn't get selected in my own book club. Because I would have wrote, dear Miss Angelo, you wrote a very good book. Very, very. Very, very. Capital V on the line twice. I really did like it a lot. I thought your life was very good. You all, the Olympics. Because the letters were really just extraordinary. And we're going to start with Cheryl, who's going to read hers, so that those of you who are out there who said, I wrote a letter, and I know I'm as cute as any of those women who are there, you can hear why we thought that their letters were so, we were so impressed with their letters.

56:08Dear Oprah, I have learned through re-reading Heart of a Woman that in the quest called life, I am constantly in search of the best me, though I will never really find her. And maybe it is the genius of the creator that I'm not really meant to find her here in this life. Only five minutes in and we were already a boo and a hoon at Cheryl's letter. And after each woman read, we got another dose of Miss Maya's wisdom. Some folks think that you have to be very educated to be eloquent, extremely blessed and talented to be eloquent. There's nothing more eloquent than a parent saying to a child, I love you.

56:59That's eloquence. A lover saying to a lover, I love you. That is pure eloquence. Then it was Sherry's turn. I spent this Saturday after your announcement quietly reading in my room and being grateful for having Maya Angelou in this world. Her strength, courage, and spirit shone throughout this book, but most importantly, I know why she says phenomenal woman, because she sure is. And thanks to her, I am proud to call myself woman. And Oprah, thank you for the opportunity to share this with you and for all the great things you do in the name of women. Sorry, today I am grateful for you. But it was Beth's letter that just reached down and grabbed the heart of every woman at that table.

57:48These next few minutes are about as profound as it gets. Dear Oprah, I don't know when I first started reading Maya Angelou's books and poetry, But I do know that when I was 13 years old, she literally saved my life. I was raped by a family member, and I was suicidal. That's when Dr. Angelo saved my life. I had a copy of I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. As I read her story, I found someone who understood my feelings. Our experiences were different, but the feelings were the same. she knew me even though we had never met I clung to that book like it was my lifeline at night I tucked it under the mattress as the abuse continued I knew that under my mattress was the writing of someone who knew what I was enduring I was not alone she understood my terror, my pain my fear of telling anyone what was happening to me I had no one I felt I could tell.

58:58So I talked to Maya in my head. I told her. I know to the core of my soul that Dr. Angelo's book kept me alive. Reading about her courage, I knew that somewhere within me was the strength to survive. It has been many years since those events. I am an English teacher and am very happy with my life. I have read every book and poem published by Dr. Angelo. I have taught many of her works to my students. Her books and poems are words I cherish and ponder and meditate upon. Would you please tell her that Beth Alexander says thank you for my life? Thank you, dear. Thank you, dear God. The truth is, you know me to be an inspiration.

59:53And look at you. your teacher. We have no idea the range of your influence. Now I had someone who went before me. I didn't make it up. Someone went before me and it is my blessing to have Oprah as my own chosen daughter, friend, and who she influences and who you influence, who you influence. Who knows? The thing is to be totally present all the time. Have the courage to have courage and say it all the time that life is fantastic, that it is the pits. Sometimes it's horrific. Oh, each time you must keep pulling yourself up. Somebody's watching you. Somebody you don't even know. You have no idea who you will influence.

1:00:56It didn't occur to me when I wrote Caged Bird that I would really, in time, have this particular kind of influence. Some of the books cost me so much. One in which I admitted that I had been a prostitute. All I knew is I had to tell the truth. I didn't have to tell everything I knew. But what I did tell had to be the truth.

1:01:38So, to tell the truth liberates. That's what it does. It reminds human beings, all of us, that human beings are more alike than we are unalike. And everybody's been through something. Somebody's going through something. And I understand it. I am capable of understanding. And that was just the first 30 minutes. Listen, we have booed into the plate. We haven't even had no soup yet. Listen, we need new napkins. And we haven't even had any soup yet. Coming up, we finally get some smothered chicken on our plates and we find out just how strong the heart of a woman is when you mess with somebody's son, especially Maya's son.

1:02:35Honey, please.

1:02:46As I said earlier, you can't leave Maya Angelou's home without feeling changed in some way. And I assure you that all of us who were there, camera crew, producers, everybody, left feeling better about themselves and their lives. I was hoping that this show would be able to affect you all who watch it as well. So let's get back to our dinner. Claire, let's hear what you have to say. Dear Oprah, for the past few years, I have been just a little too comfortable taking care of my voos, washing, cooking, cleaning, and ironing his bedsheets and undershirts. They don't even do that anymore.

1:03:22Oprah Winfrey:I've been to tell her that all day, but I have to find her something to do. I know, we see it. Undershirts! You're ironing the undershirt.

1:03:34However, after reading Heart of a Woman, I am now fueled with the desire to slap myself into shape, to set my mind, to continue living my life to its fullest. Miss Angelou has never laid eyes upon me, nor I her, but she knows me. Every time she set pen to paper and thought to herself that her words would touch someone in a positive manner, she thought of me. and when she thought of at least one who might be helped by the truth she told of her life she called my name out loud and told me that it would be all right i may not be chosen to have dinner with miss angela and if i'm not please tell her for me that i said thank you i am so touched by the graciousness of those the all of you and when you say you know even if i'm not chosen, just say thank you.

1:04:25That is just the best. It's just the best. What is

1:04:33Strengthening, heartening is to hear a younger person, a woman, a man, white or black, to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Angelou. There is nothing greater. Nothing, nothing greater. than to have somebody say thank you. You see, the statement is, I am a human being. Nothing human can be alien to me. It's the most important one of the most profound statements. And if I can say that and someone hears it and says, you know, there's something that I must admit I understand. I comprehend. That's what the heart of a woman is. That's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is.

1:05:40Don't you believe, though, that the heart of every woman, and man, too, for that matter, but the book is the heart of a woman, that it really is the same. That's why I try to tell people, it doesn't matter how famous you become, but the heart of every woman is the desire for joy. That's right. That's right. And to be there. And to be there. And sometimes to be there is to be difficult. It's not just to be there to submit. At some point, to be there is to say, no, not me. Include me out, I'm totally here. Not. Not. No. No. What part of no don't you understand? I don't know. What part of no? Can we have some soup?

1:06:30Can we have some soup or anything? This is what you all, besides being this extraordinary. I mean, I've cooked all day long. She is the best cook in the world, honey. You're going to hurt yourself. When I'm cooking, when I start, the moment I touch the food, I am in the food. And I think about the people who will eat it. And you can imagine what I've thought about you all. never having seen your faces. Oh, we're honored. I wanted to make it so fine. Oh. Thank you. Well, you could have probably made, like, I don't know, bread and water or something. It would have been so fine. Let's talk about the heart of a woman and how, one of my favorite passages is on page 83, when you're going to defend your son to the street gang.

1:07:26my favorite part of the whole book. Isn't that one of your favorite parts? Yes. Well, see, I've known Maya for quite a while now, and I know that she is this woman. What rereading Heart of Woman did to me is to remind me that she's been that kind of woman for a long time. So, Jerry, I'm Miss Angelo. I'm Guy's mother. He closed his lips and smiled, died. I understand that you're the head of the savages and you have an arrangement with my son. I also understand that the police are afraid of you. Well, I came around to make you aware of something If my son comes home with a black eye or a torn shirt, I won't call the police.

1:08:00His attention followed my hand to my purse. I will come over here and shoot Susie's grandmother first, then her mother, then I'll blow away that sweet little baby. You understand what I'm saying? If the savages so much as touch my son, I will then find your house and heal everything that moves, including the rats and cockroaches. And you meant it. Oh, absolutely. You can't say something like that and not mean it. People know when you're serious. Now this is against everything I'm about. I am not anybody who knows me or my life. I don't want to kill or hurt or harm or threaten anybody. But I know this.

1:08:51People hear the truth of yourself. I don't care what your words are. This is the heart of a woman. A woman may say, hi, welcome home, but means something else. If you listen, you will hear what she really means. And sometimes we forget that. We pretend we don't speak these different languages. A woman's heart is sometimes in contradiction to her speaking voice.

1:09:31Tayari Jones:You know, I think of the Covenant of Water as a spiritual revelation, a soulful, mystical experience from the first sentence to the very last. So I am here in my tea house right now with the author, Dr. Abraham Berghese. Hello and welcome. So let's talk about the book, The Covenant. First of all, I just love saying The Covenant of Water. One of our readers, Danielle, has a question. Let's hear it. Hi, I am Danielle Jennings. And I have to say, I absolutely loved the book.

1:10:03Oprah Winfrey:The way it was written, the way the characters were described, the events, the spaces, everything. I loved it. My question is for Oprah. How and why did you select the book?

1:10:14Tayari Jones:Oh, well, Danielle, the how is I have a team, a very small team, usually one or two people who are reading lots of books and passing them on to me. And I had read many books, were all stacked on my desk. And then I came across this book and I kept moving it from one side to the other and moving it to the floor, moving it to another room. and then finally one day I just picked it up and after the first sentence I was drawn in. And here's the way I look at life and I've felt this way since I was a little girl living in rural Mississippi, often not being able to be around a lot of people but my grandmother.

1:11:00Tayari Jones:And when people would come by, when bring candy and sometimes my cousins would come in from the city, I would always hold my candy because I always thought it was better if I shared it. It was always going to taste better. I didn't want to have the Snickers bar or the Musketeers bar and eat it if I wasn't sharing it with someone else. And I feel that way about a great piece of writing. Like the moment I started reading this book, I then was looking for other people to share the experience with. And so one of the great rewards for me, Danielle, is being able to have so many of you now exposed to what I first received in an uncorrected proof manuscript.

1:11:44Tayari Jones:And I just love hearing all of your reactions to the book. You would have thought I wrote it or something. I don't have this gift, this talent, but understanding how a great story told well, as this one has been, can affect and open you up, just it delights me. It gives me great joy to be able to share it with other people. And so that's why. May I add something to the story? Yeah, you previous book, Cutting for Stone, was set in Africa. It had a lot to do with women and fistula. So I prayed Oprah would pick that book. I lit candles. Oh, no. And so when I... No, you didn't tell me that. I did.

1:12:30Yeah, I didn't tell you that. You lit candles. I'm telling you now, I'm a big lighter of candles. If anybody calls me to say something serious is going on, I'm not being facetious. I say, I'm not a light a candle for you. I don't have a picture of it. I don't know what it means, but this is what I do. This is my way of participating with them in the worry that this news has triggered. But I lit a candle, hoping that Oprah would pick my book. Oh, my. And, you know, it didn't happen, which is, the odds are it doesn't happen, but I had hoped for it. And so when it happened with this book, and we finished our call, I got to my knees because it was a reminder that, you know, God's time is not my time or our time.

1:13:16So that candle worked is what I'm trying to say.

1:13:20Tayari Jones:That candle did not go out. That candle never went out. That's so incredible you do that. I do that too. Yeah, but it's a meaningful thing. It's a meaningful thing. Yeah. What else can you do? You're far away. You get this news, you know. Let's talk about your creative process. You said that you used a whiteboard to map out the characters and the intricate plot you shared a photo of it and your drawings are so you you were an artist too oh I wouldn't say I'm an artist um I'm very visual I think I think visually when I read the description so how did seeing the story visually help you to write it it actually didn't help a great deal at all you know I think I was trying to save time and try to plot the outline and have the architecture of a house, essentially, is what I had in mind.

1:14:08So I would draw out the characters' faces, and since it's on a whiteboard with erasable stuff, I could keep fiddling with it, with my fingers wiping it off until what was in my head matched what was on the board. And then I would outline these seminal events that were going to happen. But the trouble is, as I started writing, I think writing is mysterious. And as I started putting the characters under pressure, now there's a saying in writing that character is determined by decisions taken under pressure. So I'd put the character under pressure, and they would do something very different from what I had planned.

1:14:48And so suddenly the whiteboard was like you stuck a swimming pool in the middle of where the dining room was supposed to be. So I'd have to go wipe it all off. I'd take a photograph first and then start all over again from this new branch point.

1:15:03Tayari Jones:Characters determined by decisions taken under pressure. I mean, that's a general writing maxim. That's not mine. I don't want to take credit for that. But yeah, think about it. That's life also. Well, but I was going to say, that's life also. It's not just characters that you're building in a story, but it's also our own personal character is determined by decisions under pressure. Marielle has a question. Marielle? Hi, I'm Marielle, and I found the title of the book to be extraordinary and brilliant. I'm curious if you think that the only true agreement that these characters and people have in their life is death, based off of all of the sudden loss that occurs in the book.

1:15:44Is that what you meant by the title?

1:15:46Tayari Jones:A lot of people have asked me that, which is so interesting, because the Covenant of Water comes up many times. Various characters talk about that covenant and about what water means. But I think some people are like, OK, so what is the covenant? of water. Yeah, I've always felt that titles ought to be a little mysterious, that they, you know, that they're meant to be chewed on. And hopefully, as you go through the book, they begin to mean many, many different things for you. To me, the word covenant had a lot to do with the faithfulness of a matriarch and the family and, you know, that sort of covenant.

1:16:25Water, because water was, you know, very much the metaphor of Kerala, but also because this... I now want to go to Kerala. I hope you do. I hope you do. And this family was plagued by their inability of some people in each generation to actually deal with water. So, you know, in a strange way, their covenant with water was broken until the day they finally sort out the covenant.

1:16:51Tayari Jones:I have to say you vividly transport us to so many other worldly places. First, a property called Parambil. you can almost, I mean, touch and smell and see everything about this mystical setting. You write about hospitals and you write about universities, a country club, a factory, a leper colony, an exquisite level of detail. Do you see them in your mind? Do you see all this in your mind when you're writing? Yes, I see them and I'm also drawing on memories of visiting these actual places, is actually in the sense like not the Paranormal, but places like Paranormal, not the particular leprosarium, but I've certainly visited leprosariums.

1:17:34Hospitals are like my second home, so evoking the images of hospitals in India, hospitals elsewhere isn't that hard. And also I like that sense of evoking place by going into the greatest detail about something that makes you see, smell, and feel it. It just doesn't come effortlessly. It takes a lot of revision to make it finally leap off the page. But place matters, and I spend a lot of time thinking of place as a character because you are shaped by the place where you're born. You know, geography is destiny. My mom, you know, a single woman in the sari, answers an ad to go to Africa to teach, and as a result she meets my father.

1:18:23I'm born in Africa. I leave that continent to come here and, you know, eventually here I am. I'm talking to you. I actually have a theory that the immigrant is given voice when they come to America, you know. Our experiences are often the ones before we got to America, but the voice comes out because this great land.

1:18:47Tayari Jones:My latest book club selection is Olive Again by Pulitzer Prize winning author Elizabeth Stroud. Please welcome home and to our book club Pulitzer Prize winner, Elizabeth Stroud.

1:19:06Hey, welcome home. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Welcome home.

1:19:19Tayari Jones:Isn't it perfect that we're discussing your book, this book right here? That's a little weird. It's a little weird. It feels a little weird. It's amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And the original Olive Kedridge was so profound and rewarding, but with Olive again, you took us really even farther. And people are wondering, how did you do it? How did you know it was time for Olive again? I didn't know. I had no idea. But she just showed up. And she showed up in this, you know, nosing her car into the place that you all just drove into. And explain that to normal people. OK. What that means. Because I know a lot of authors, the characters literally, you have a visitation with them.

1:20:04Tayari Jones:They show up. Yeah, I do. She just really, honestly, she appeared in my mind. I'm just trying to say that, you know, it was not a moment of psychosis or anything. I mean, in my imagination, she showed up. Yeah. And I was literally checking my emails in a cafe, and I just, she just was there. That's all I can say. And it was so astonishing to me because I thought that I was done with her. Yeah. So it's so unexpected that a judgmental, middle-aged, seventh-grade math teacher in rural Maine has actually touched such a nerve literally around the world. Why do you think Olive still resonates? And what is it about her?

1:20:51You know, honestly, for a long time, I didn't really know. I just didn't. I couldn't understand her appeal in a certain way, except to myself as I was writing her. But when I went out on the road with Olive Kittredge, the original one, the story where she steals her daughter-in-law's bra and takes one shoe, I cannot tell you how many women would lean down and say to me so confidentially, you must have a daughter-in-law. And I don't. And you don't. No. I don't even have a son. But what I understood from that confidentiality was that these women were confessing to nobody. And that was why they liked Olive.

1:21:36Because people have these feelings and they can't express them. and Olive expresses them.

1:21:43Tayari Jones:And I think a lot of people have an Olive in their life or are Olive in their... How many of you have an Olive in your life somewhere? Yeah. I had to ask myself, do I have an Olive in my life or am I Olive? Yeah. Sometimes I am. All of my daughters think I'm Olive because I just say what I feel. Well, there you go. Let's talk about the book. How do you actually describe Olive Again? Well, I think of Olive again as Olive Kittredge going through the latter time of her life, you know, the autumn of her life. And I feel that Olive Kittredge grows throughout this book. And I understood as I was putting the book together, because I don't write from beginning to end, and I don't, you know, I sort of form it as it comes.

1:22:33But I understood as I was putting this book together that I think there's a myth that we have that people reach a certain age and that's it. They're just done. They're just sort of sitting there. But it's not true. That's what I realized.

1:22:47Tayari Jones:And even she says that. She says that. You reach a certain age and you become invisible. Right. And I realized that it's not true because everybody still has deep feelings. They still have deep desires for whatever may be in their life or deep reactions. And all of it's continuing to grow. So that was interesting to me. Yes. Chapter 4, Motherless Child. She saw behind her closed eyes the house, and inside her was a shiver that went through her bones. the house where she had raised her son, never, ever realizing that she herself had been raising a motherless child, now a long, long way from home.

1:23:35Tayari Jones:That phrase, motherless child, cuts pretty deep, right? Yeah. And that kind of self-awareness, actually, for the way she treated her husband and son. Because she did treat Henry really badly. She treated him very badly. Yeah. And it's almost like she had to go through all the things she went through to reach the point of recognition in herself. She couldn't have done it any earlier is what I mean. Did it surprise you as the story was unfolding how this showed up as her, you know, newfound love in a way of knowing that she could have loved better? Did it surprise you? It always surprises me when I'm writing something.

1:24:15If it doesn't surprise me, then it's not good and I throw it out. So, you know, I'm always surprised. I'm not surprised you won't be surprised. That's what I think. So, yes, I was surprised to realize, you know, those particular aspects of her relationship with Christopher

1:24:31Tayari Jones:and with herself, ultimately. So Holly is here. Holly, where are you? I'm right here. Okay, hi, Holly. Holly, you said that the passage really hit home with you because you also grew up as a motherless child.

1:24:41Oprah Winfrey:I grew up as a motherless child, but I had a mother. And my mother was not at all like Olive. My mother, and this is not to condemn her, my mother was very damaged. And she carried out that damage on her children, including myself. So I was a motherless child because for years, I raised myself. I mean, she taught me like the very, very basics. But then that was it. I was off on my own.

1:25:05Tayari Jones:Didn't she actually tell you she didn't like you?

1:25:07Oprah Winfrey:Yes. Yes. Multiple times, up until a couple of years ago. And then I decided that was enough. Oh, yeah. Yes.

1:25:14Tayari Jones:And so when you read that chapter, you felt? I felt like I understood.

1:25:19Oprah Winfrey:I think that a lot of people, you know, when you hear motherhood, you know, everybody has motherhood on a pedestal. Everyone who has a child must be a wonderful person and they must love their children and express their love. And to read you, Ms. Stroup, put that on paper, that that's not always the case. And some mothers make mistakes. And you figure out that, okay, number one, I'm not the only one. Yeah, exactly. And number two, it's okay to have these feelings because, you know, at some point you start to feel bad. Like maybe there's something wrong with me. Of course you do.

1:25:51Tayari Jones:Yeah.

1:25:51Oprah Winfrey:Because my mother doesn't like me. Maybe I'm wrong and she's this wonderful person.

1:25:57Tayari Jones:It takes a long time to figure that out. Yes.

1:25:59Oprah Winfrey:It took quite a long time. So reading it and seeing it on paper, it's like every time I do, I'm like, yes, this is me. This was my life. And this is my life going on because I don't speak to her.

1:26:12Tayari Jones:Wow. Right. How old were you when you realized that your mother actually didn't like you? Because as a little kid, you would be trying and trying and trying and trying.

1:26:20Oprah Winfrey:A couple of years ago, recently, so in my 40s. I finally figured it out because she said some things to me. And I was like, you know, she told me I embarrassed her and that I wasn't as beautiful as some other women. And I'm sorry. And I said to myself, well, I embarrassed her, but I'm an attorney. I'm not as beautiful as other women, but I'm here and I'm doing whatever it is that I'm doing. It's time to stop. You know, it's time to get out of that. Good for you. Good for you. One of the reasons that I write is to try and help people understand that they're not alone in what they feel. Exactly.

1:26:59And that whatever they feel might have been felt and thought before. Right.

1:27:04Tayari Jones:So today I'm excited for my latest book club selection. I really am. I read a lot of manuscripts and I don't choose anything that I don't really like. But there are some things that I just feel resonate deeply inside that that forever will be a part of my book language and vocabulary. And this book, Kin by Tayari Jones, is one of them. Oh, one of my daughter girls, Tondo's here, a graduate of my school in South Africa. She reads every one in my book club but picks, and I always just love Tondo's take. Your take on this one? First of all, I'm a huge fan of Miss Tayari. Since American Marriage, I've read the book 10 million times over.

1:27:49Obsessed. I might be biased, but my next of kin picks some of the greatest books I have read. And again, love the story about Chosen Family. I've been carried on the backs of Chosen Family my whole life, And so I have great admiration and respect for the idea that people can step in for us and become our family without the bond of blood. But one thing you do, and you did it in American Marriage as well, of course, the letters. And they feel like little memories that you almost want to take out the book and put back in their original envelopes with the torn kind of, you know. And I love the fact that you have us treasure those moments and they feel so personal when you read each of those letters.

1:28:38It feels like it's coming directly to you. You almost turn each page excited to see, did Annie write? Did she write today? So, yeah, since we have you here, I would like to know what that structure looks like, the process of you choosing the letter writing and putting us in a memory box like that.

1:28:57Oprah Winfrey:Well, first, thank you for all of you for such careful and generous reading. Whenever you write a novel, you're asking so much of our readers for so much of their time. You know, we're all so busy and our attention is everywhere. So for someone to give you the gift of their time to read 300 pages, I would like to start by just saying thank you for giving me that chance. You know, I write letters. I'm a letter writer. and I lament that letter writing is, you know, we're losing it as a cultural form. I have all the letters. My grandfather lived eight miles from my grandmother and just thinking these days when people didn't have cars, that was eight walking miles.

1:29:40Oprah Winfrey:And so he courted her by letter. And we have those, you know, we have that record. My mother has them in her jewelry box. It's about 50 letters. And I hate that we don't have that record anymore. So I think that's why the letter form comes back in my work. It's me trying to keep it alive. But also, what we share in writing is different than what we share in speaking. It's also different than what we text or email. There's a certain intentionality because you're putting it on the page for the record. And I was very interested in what these friends and some other characters, what they will say to each other on the record.

1:30:21Oprah Winfrey:I generally know what the book is about, but I don't know what the people are going to do. But this is a story of a female friendship. And I do believe that as a woman writer, at some point, female friendship, because it's such a part of the fabric of our lives, is a natural topic. Everybody here has a friend, right? Everyone has a friend. Even you non-females too, right? They're friends since they were infants, because neither of them has a mother, Although Niecy's mother is dead, Annie's mother has abandoned her. So Annie has hoped that one day she'll see her mother again. Niecy knows she'll never see her mother.

1:31:00Oprah Winfrey:So the question is really, is Hope a double-edged sword? Because Hope's twin is disappointment. And their lives, you know, their lives unfold. They take different forks in a row. One is able to pursue education. The other is living in Memphis, working in a bar, you know, shacking up with a piano player. but their hearts are still connected. They are still dearest friends. And it's really, I think, about also maintaining your friendships despite the fact that your lives are different. Different lives don't mean that you necessarily have different hearts. And you cannot mistake your life for your heart.

1:31:36Oprah Winfrey:Those are different things.

1:31:38Tayari Jones:Wow. Why did you choose this time in American history? Because it's set in the 1950s, in the 1960s, the dialogue, the sights, the smells, all of it.

1:31:50Oprah Winfrey:Well, I was curious about growing up in the wake of the civil rights movement because my mother, when my mother was 15 years old, she participated in a sit-in movement in Oklahoma City. For two years, my mother, her sister, and some other children that went to their school, the whole summer, they sat in at a drug counter, drugstore counter, and during the school year, they did it on the weekends. And it was just a part of the fabric of their lives. Part of what I did in this book was really to try to get to know my own mother better by thinking about the circumstances under which she came of age.

1:32:24Oprah Winfrey:It helped me understand the way our lives are the same and the ways that our lives are different.

1:32:29Tayari Jones:Wow. And I love this, this, this page 11, just, it spoke to me so profoundly. While I was tended to, I was never mothered. Still the hole in my spirit made me into the girl I was and then the woman that I am. One day I will grow a person within myself and love that little person so hard that it would bind her to me like rich dirt in the corner of a canvas satchel. And you're crying. Why are you crying? Because that was your line too? Yeah. Yeah. We lost our mom when we were younger. It's really spoke. It spoke to you too. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Yeah. I can't believe how well and accurately you captured the experience of what it's like to be a girl without a mom.

1:33:19And every line, like that line was like, yep, my reality. That's my reality. That's my reality. And so it didn't feel even sad. It felt normal reading it. Yeah.

1:33:33Tayari Jones:And, um, felt normal and seen and heard like someone else knows my story. Yes. Even to say that you accompanied these girls through the story was like, oh, like you accompanied me through just the witnessing is so powerful. So one of the themes that really stood out to me is this tension between survival and belonging and how you have to sacrifice part of who you are in order to fit in because it's not just a being seen and known kind of thing, but a am I going to be safe and cared for and protected type of thing. So what was it that you were hoping that people would take away from that tension of when do I, when do I sacrifice myself in order to fit in or when do I protect myself in order to survive.

1:34:24Oprah Winfrey:Thank you, First Offer, for sharing your experience. I think that we believe that we have to sacrifice more than we actually have to sacrifice in order to fit in. You know, a lot of times I think that we capitulate in advance, like we anticipate that we will not be safe. Like, I think that Nisi doesn't believe she'll be safe in telling her truth, but she does not know that. like that is a risk I think everyone should take the risk of the truth because you may be accepted and you don't know it because you're afraid and so that to me is what I the dignity is in the truth and I think that that's the thing we have to we think we think we can live without dignity you know we think I'll do this to survive like dignity is a luxury but dignity is not a luxury and you only get it by being your authentic self I think that's one of the takeaways and the other takeaway is I really hope that we can stop being so tied to the question of biology.

1:35:26Oprah Winfrey:The question of biology is something that is decided for us before we're even born. Like none of us chose our families. And we as adults, we as full human beings should have the right to create a family that works for us. I'm not saying that your chosen family has to replace your family family. You can have both, but not to feel like this accident of birth is the determining factor in your life, that you can be loved by someone else. Even if it's not your biological mother, your biological father, someone else's love can be just as significant if you let it. Like Annie is so committed to the idea of blood that she cannot experience the other love that's around her.

1:36:08Oprah Winfrey:And it was right there in front of her. It was right there, but her commitment to the, It's an idea. Like they say, you know, you could.

1:36:14Tayari Jones:And then he eventually says he cannot be seen anymore because she's chasing the thing that's already there. Obsession is never a good idea. It's never. Yes. Yes. You've said that writing this novel gave you a deeper understanding of your own mother. Did it also give you a deeper understanding of yourself?

1:36:36Oprah Winfrey:Absolutely. because I came to understand in writing about this previous generation just how their experiences were so different than our own. Like there's some things that, you know, I kind of blamed my mom for like not understanding my life. And I realize now, how could she understand my life? She grew up in a different world. She was born in 1943. How is she meant? I mean, the nature of progress is such that we are each in our modern lives living unprecedented lives. and you cannot expect other people to imagine the nuances of our unprecedented lives. And that's what I really came to see, that people do the best they can with the experiences that they have.

1:37:20And you have to give them some grace and credit for how hard they try.

1:37:25Oprah Winfrey:Wow, that is such wisdom.

1:37:27Tayari Jones:And I love how you turn a phrase like, on page 20, you say, my mother, rough as an Emory board, looks like she was born to die.

1:37:35Oprah Winfrey:Yeah, poor Hattie.

1:37:36Tayari Jones:Yeah. How did you, I mean, so as you're thinking of my mother's rough or my mother is, you know, challenged or my mother, how does that come to you?

1:37:47Oprah Winfrey:Rough as an Emory board. Some of them come to me right away, but other times once I'm in the zone, like when I'm in the zone of a book, if I touch something rough, I'll become more aware that I'm like, that's rough. I should use that somewhere. Like if I'm in the mode, I'm looking for, I'm looking for metaphors. I'm looking for metaphors. But we also have metaphors and symbols, you know, all over our lives. But when I'm in the zone, I hear things everywhere. Like I'll hear a song lyric and it'll remind me of something in the book. Or I also think of ways. How am I similar to my characters? I can never write about a character who has experience any.

1:38:26Oprah Winfrey:The book is not autobiographical. None of my books are autobiographical. But I have experienced every emotion my characters have experienced. and I'm more aware of my emotions and how they feel and where they manifest in my body as I write.

1:38:39Tayari Jones:I love page 94. Me and Niecy weren't sisters and nowhere near twins. I didn't have what she got, nor the other way around. What you have the same isn't what binds you. Hearts grow strings because of what you know that's the same. What happened to you, that's the same. And when what you want is the same. Yes. That's what you're saying. You've already experienced what these characters have experienced in one form or another.

1:39:06Oprah Winfrey:Yes. And I mean, and even when they've done things that are shameful or embarrassing, I have to remember, and it also makes you humble in writing because you are not some perfect figure moving the people around, making them do what you think they should or punishing them for being naughty. That's, you have to really think about the times when you were not in the right and how it felt to you and that you're still a good person, then they too can be good people. They don't have to do everything right to be worthy of story. Brianna, where are you? Hello. Hi. Yeah. So I just wanted to say that this book felt tangible.

1:39:45Oprah Winfrey:I felt like I could touch it. I could hear it. I could taste it. I could smell it. It felt less like fiction and more like a real account of something that happened in the lives of my great grandmothers, my grandmothers, even my mother. And it really resonated with me, Annie and Bernice's predicament, because I also lost my mother as well. And even their friendship resonated with me because I had a classmate who also lost her mother and father that took me under her wing after she found out about my mother's passing and really helped me through. I identify with Vernice's desire to be like Mrs.

1:40:29Oprah Winfrey:McHenry and her desire to break barriers and create a different life for herself and her children and her children's children. And in doing that, sometimes you feel like you need to separate yourself from certain people or certain environments so that you don't get pulled back into a place that you're trying so hard to escape from. My question to you is, could Bernice possibly have set better boundaries? Was she supposed to? Would that have saved her and Annie in the long run? I think, first off, my condolences to you and your mama. Thank you. I felt it when you said that. I think that you have to set boundaries with people that are toxic.

1:41:29Oprah Winfrey:Annie is not toxic. She's poor. And you can't cut people off for being poor because they don't have the opportunities that you have. Annie is a good friend to her. and Annie needed her help. And you have to help those who need your help if they're your friends, if you're close. And part of reaching across these differences in their lives are remembering what this friendship means. I don't think she should have had, I think her mother-in-law who's saying, you know, you keep the people you used to know far away from you. And she tells her how she even pushed her sister away. I think that was a mistake.

1:42:03Oprah Winfrey:You know, if you have a good relationship with your sister, I don't want a life that tells me I can't love the people I love. And I think that is the generational progress that I think that Bernice will make and that Mrs. McHenry is saying, you have to cut off your past. And I think Bernice says, or not, I'm not going to cut her off. I love her. And I think that's important, that we have to figure out ways to integrate the people we love into the lives we want, or else you're choosing between who you love and your ambition. And you shouldn't have to, and you don't have to. You just have to be, I think you just have to be flexible and open.

1:42:43Tayari Jones:Well, Leslie and Dr. Kelly, thank you so much for that, for sharing that. Leslie and Dr. Kelly and our audience, they've been friends since they were four years old. Did I hear? Friends since four years old. Tell us your story. Stand up, guys. Hi, ladies. Hi. So yes, we have been friends since we were four and five years old and our parents were members of a black social club, the Consorts. Why dresses all the way down? Yeah. And much like Niecy and Annie, we disconnected in our teenage years.

1:43:14Oprah Winfrey:But 25 years ago, we were reconnected when my aunt was battling pancreatic cancer and Kelly was on her rotation. So she walked us through the transition and we have been thick as thieves ever since Sister Friends reunited. Ever since. And we've gone the last 25 years, we've gone through the ups and downs, couple of marriages, couple of divorces. And all the stuff in between. And one of the things that really resonated with me about Annie and Niecy's story is how childhood wounds can, you know, they can't help but to affect us in our lives. But sisterhood can really heal us if we let it, you know.

1:43:57Oprah Winfrey:So we collaborated on this question.

1:44:01Tayari Jones:And, you know, when you think about how women sustain friendships over decades, right, over time and distance and failures and successes and loves, et cetera, what

1:44:16Oprah Winfrey:would you like for readers to take away? Yeah, what do you want all of us to take away from the relationship between Niecy and Annie that we can bring to our relationships? I think the main thing is to honor your relationships. Your friendships are as important as your romantic relationships. And they're as important as any other relationship in your life. And also may last longer because they can start when you're... Well, also they can get started earlier also. What'd you say, Gail? But this person who has seen you grow, And there is more of an expectation of acceptance among friends. Like your friend is not going to get mad at you because you look different as you get older.

1:45:02Oprah Winfrey:You know, like that's just not how friendships work. There is a more of an expectation of an unconditional acceptance. And I think that's the thing, though, is to nurture your friendships and value your friends. So many people, you know people like this, throw their friends away when other circumstances in their lives change. You can't do it. And your friends are your greatest resource. I think that's what I would take away.

1:45:26Tayari Jones:There's a beautiful passage about love that you write where you say, We come to love people in many ways. Much is made of the burning love that hits like a smoldering remnant of a star hurled down to earth. I went, now, how long did it take to write that sentence? Yet this is not the only type of love anymore. Then the camellia is the only flower. There is the love that blooms from decency and from that love, passion.

1:45:58Oprah Winfrey:I do believe that. I think that real, again, this burning love that's like a star hurled from the heavens, that's that imaginary person. That's that imaginary person. But real people can win you over in a lot of ways. And we can be so married to this other script. Love that blooms from decency and from that love, passion. Yes. And passion can develop. I think we think, oh, well, if you don't feel it, that first day is never going to be there or it's not there. But I think that Nisi, with her experience of loss, she is open to different types of love. She even says, I think of another character of Joette, that only she that's privilege that makes you think you can only be happy if things work out exactly the way you wanted them to.

1:46:42Oprah Winfrey:But there's a range of happiness. And if you can accept that there's a range, there's a way higher chance that you'll find it.

1:46:50Tayari Jones:How does each, how does writing a book like this open up the aperture of your own life? What happens after you have finished this writing and you send it off to your publisher and you know that you are done?

1:47:06Oprah Winfrey:Do you feel more expanded in ways that you were before you wrote? I feel like every novel I've written has made me more understanding of other people because I have to walk in their shoes. I never write about any character that I dislike. It has to be something about them that I feel establishes their humanity and makes me understand that other person's point of view, even if I completely disagree with them. Like, it was difficult for me, you know, to write from the point of view of a madam in a whorehouse. Like, that was very difficult for me to write because I... But we ended up having compassion for her.

1:47:45Oprah Winfrey:Yes, we did end up having compassion for her, but we still had Babydoll pulling us, pulling our, um, our him saying, yeah, but don't forget what she does for a living. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I was able to understand the way that she understood herself. I think that's the key. And I try to apply that to other people around me. I was able to understand the way she understood herself. Yeah. And that's the important thing. I imagine that the characters are reading the book. People say to me, what's, who's your audience? And the audience are the characters themselves. and I want each of them to feel like I did right by them.

1:48:20Tayari Jones:And you did. Oh, thank you. There's a running theme throughout the book that women have to sacrifice in some way themselves in order to survive. What is your point of view on that?

1:48:31Oprah Winfrey:I mean, I do think that, I mean, sacrifice, that just sounds so like, I don't know, almost like, you know, like in those, like something someone's going to do in an altar, they're going to be like a sacrifice. but I do think you have to compromise. Give up some things. Yeah, you have to compromise but everyone, to be in a relationship is by its nature a compromise. The thing is that you have to be in a situation where everyone involved, everyone is compromising. The problem comes in when only one person is compromising and perhaps that's when it becomes a sacrifice. But that's the thing, like Annie compromises to be in Niecy's wedding and Niecy has to compromise to remain friends with Annie.

1:49:12Oprah Winfrey:Like, they have to give. You have to give. But as long as you get, it's okay to give. Very good. We had ourselves a Wally Palooza of a dinner. But first, here's author Wally Lamb talking about how he came up with this big idea behind, I know this much is true. I saw a guy behind the wheel of a pickup truck in the middle of the night. And I began to ask myself questions about a play of the game. You know, who is this guy? And I thought to myself, I got to follow this guy off the edge of that cliff and see what happens. And that was the day that Dominic Birdsey sort of was born in my mind and sort of followed his story.

1:49:55I had no idea that I was going to write about identical twins or mental illness or Italian volcanoes in Sicily. All of that stuff came in the process. So, unbelievable. Spend the summer opening letters. Somebody around here did. I actually really did not open them all, I can tell you that. I actually only opened two. I want to say we got 6 ,000 letters. I said that earlier, and I thank you all, all of you who wrote, and for the thousands more who stayed with us for all 897 pages, because you're now true readers. The letters were so extraordinary. It was almost impossible to choose only five. But here they are along with part one of our dinner.

1:50:41Take a look. Our book club dinner started off with cocktails on a warm Chicago night. Wasn't this delightful? Let's meet our guests. Well, you all know this man. Well, Wally Lamb, if it ain't you. Well, here we are. He's Wally Lamb, bestselling author of She's Come Undone and the Summer Chart Buster. I know this much is true. Well, Molly, let's start with you telling us a little bit about yourself and why you wanted to be here. Molly is from Seattle, only 33 years old, a survivor of abuse, mental illness, alcoholism, to name just a few. From this, she's emerged a stronger person. When I read the book, it just touched so many areas of my life.

1:51:22Isn't it amazing how you can read a book like that and then you get to sit down and talk to the author? That always just floors me. It's totally amazing. It floors me. Keith, why'd you want to be here? Keith is our youngest guest. He's 26 and a social worker from Virginia. He's dealt with mental illness on the job and at home. I looked at the book from a personal perspective with my mother, who currently is dealing with schizophrenia now. Monica is 30. She lives in L.A. Our book got her thinking about her past and her future, the family she left behind, and her new role as a mother. And almost having to reckon with all this stuff that I had run away from was quite profound for me.

1:52:05Diana is a 45-year-old from Hatfield, Pennsylvania. Who wrote that it was killing you softly? That was you who wrote that? Yeah. It was a little painful, actually, to read some parts of that, especially Domenico's biography. And talk about taking a page from the book. Well, Kathleen is 47 and a twin to a schizophrenic. For her, this book was more than a good read. It was a healing experience. You saved me a trip to the shrink. Really? Thousands of dollars have been saved. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I can't wait to sit down and deal with you and find out how the story formed in your head and why you aren't schizophrenic yourself now.

1:52:45And maybe you really are. Well, we'll find out as the evening unfolds. Yes, maybe you really are. And now that you've met our guests, you know what comes next. Come to dinner. First of all, I'd like to congratulate everybody who's read this book. You have been baptized in the reading club. This is the baptism. Nobody can say they're not a reader after you've read this book. That's true. And we get the promise? Yes, yes, yes. And you get the promise. That's true. Because I think it was intimidating for a lot of people, 897 pages. But as I promised, I don't lie. I'm never going to lie about a book.

1:53:22I can only tell you how I feel about it. And I just felt I'd never read a book like this. And I've been reading since I could read, since I was a kid. Never read anything like it. It read like a motion picture because the images become so vivid in your head that you are living with the characters. Let's start with Dr. Bertel saying, I give you the Shiva, I give you Shiva, the dancing god, in hopes that you will soon be on your feet and dancing past your pain. Do you remember Shiva's message? With destruction comes renovation, be well. Everybody open your boxes, will you? Inside, we have our own little Shiva.

1:54:03Look at this. Oh, they're beautiful. Beautiful. Wally, what is a Shiva? Shiva is the god, goddess, sort of genderless, from which all things come. Well, what she says is with destruction comes renovation. Be well. So I'd like to talk for a minute at the table about your own sense of feeling destruction and renovation. Anybody want to comment on that? That was the main theme. For me, in my life, I've been in therapy for a long time. I've put a lot of therapist children through college. but what I've when I found the most success is when I could face my fear when I was willing to let go of the way it was look at the way it really is and then be open to what it could be it only came after I was willing to look at my past face my fears rip it apart and build it back up again.

1:55:12There's a scene late in the novel where Dominic, who has grown up in this duplex house, makes a decision as the house is evolving into something else to break down the middle wall of the house. And I think, you know, so there's the destruction that comes with renovation in a very physical way. But I think that business of breaking down all those barriers and all those defenses that we build up over the years and get very good at building up our walls. Yeah. I think that the disassembling of those kinds of things is what in some ways sets us free. Well, for me, it got to a point where either I was going to choose to tear down in my head what I consider to be first floor of a house, just tear it and rip it to pieces, either on my own or have someone or something come in and wipe it out for me.

1:56:12And it became a matter of choice. You know what I wanted to ask you, Ellie? I wanted you to know where you got your insight about being twins. Because I mean, I could swear you hit a twin when you said that. I wanted a twin when I was a kid. Oh, I think everybody does. I was fascinated with twins. Wouldn't it be fun? I didn't want one. And he's worse than I get one. I want one, I didn't get one. You didn't get one. I never had that. I've heard, and I've done a lot of research on twinships, and I've heard that there are certain twins who feel like they're only whole if they're with their twin.

1:56:48Oprah Winfrey:It was a scary part in the book when you talked about being untwinned, because I had never crossed my mind before. It just never crossed my mind. And I thought, well, if anything ever happened to my sister, I would not have a twin, and I also would not be a twin. You know, but I had never thought about it until I read it like that. Favorite passages in the book? I know you all have them. Diana, your favorite passage? Well, I have many, but I feel like I want to skip to my absolute favorite, which really is the end. Is that okay to do? Yeah, you can. That's mine, too. I am not a smart man, particularly.

1:57:29But one day, at long last, I stumbled from the dark woods of my own, my family's, and my country's past, holding in my hands these truths, that love grows from the rich loam of forgiveness, that mongrels make good dogs, that the evidence of God exists in the roundness of things. This much at least I figured out. I know this much is true. And that, you know, just says it all. You know, that sentence, mongrels make good dogs, like, it stunned me. I'm biracial, and my son can pass for white, sort of ethnic white, Greek maybe. And you always read these stories where being multiracial is tragic. You know, it's sad, you're trapped between two worlds.

1:58:14When my husband and I got married, you know, it's like, what about the children? And to read a story in which multiple heritages could empower you, It could be something to draw from and learn from. You know, I mean, it's not the tragic mulatto. He's not caught between two worlds. My favorite passage is page 610. Life is a river, she repeated. Only in the most literal sense are we born on the day we leave our mother's womb. In the larger, truer sense, we are born of the past, connected to its fluidity, both genetically and experientially. So this is my opinion, my friend. should you throw your ancestry into the wood stove?

1:58:55Of course not. Should you keep reading it, even if it takes away your sleep? Yes, by all means. Read your grandfather's story, Dominic. Jump into the river. And if it upsets you, come in and tell me why. That was beautiful. Woo! Dr. Patel, thank you so much. Wow, where did that come from? Well, it came partly from myth and how the past informs the present. Yeah, I, who just done completed Beloved, I mean, that's what I used. Used the past to create that character. Used that past to move forward and feel as a part of that experience, connecting to the past, that I am so much stronger and transformed by the connection.

1:59:39Yeah, that's why I was like, go, Wally! it's interesting to me and kind of sad that in america you know somebody turns 30 and we give that person black balloons and somebody turns 40 and we and it's sort of like this kind of like this mock morning going on but i really love having having come to middle age because a lot of the things that i didn't understand and struggled with um i love it i just don't like calling it middle age i really do you know why i don't i like to come up with another term you can do that for us, Wally, because middle age is what our parents were when they were this age.

2:00:16I wouldn't trade this age for anything. Well, let's maybe call it the age of perspective then or something like that. Take a moment to taste this tiramisu. It is about the best. Just take a moment. Let's all together take a bite of Nick Salino's. Nick Salino's Cucina Amores Tiramisu. Mmm. Mmm. Ooh, baby, baby. We have arrived. We have arrived. Oh, hey, bravo. There's Nick Celino. This is tiramisu that could really medicate us and put us under. We thank you so much for the entire meal. Did somebody tell you this was my favorite meal? Is that why we're eating this? No, this is actually my specialty.

2:01:08I believe to be the best tiramisu maker in the world, which I take great pride in. And the fact that you like it as much as I do is a great thing. But the whole dinner, like the pastas, beginning with the artichoke and the scalp. There's a reason for it, actually. Why? 25 years ago, my father said goodbye to me at the airport. He told me, Nicolino, ricorda l 'America è un sogno, which translated in English means, make remember that America is a dream. And one of my dreams has always been to actually cook for you. Really? And the one occasion that I've been given, I wanted to make absolutely sure there was an unforgettable dinner, not only for me to have had the honor, but for you to remember for a long time.

2:01:44Mr. Lamba, I had the opportunity to read your book, and I only hope that the passion of my food matched the emotions that you made me feel to your writing. Thank you so much. Oh, that is so moving. That's really... Ooh, we have some gifts for everybody. Thank you so much, Nick Celino. Thank you, Nick Celino. Thank you. Thank you. I'm always the first to open presents like I never get any. Wow! Wow! Look what it is! Oh, my goodness. Oh, they're beautiful. It's gorgeous. Wow. Outstanding. That is gorgeous. Oh, my God. It's beautiful. Thank you so much. That's gorgeous, guys. Nice book. Yes. Wally says in my book that he signed to me, thank you with all my heart for connecting me to a readership far beyond my imagination.

2:02:25And you know about my imagination. That's great. That's great. I know because it's like and I know for you Wally who is one of the most humble spirits I've ever met in a human body that it's not about making money I know because you know he still lives the same as he did when the first time we went to his house and he was putting the clothes in the laundry separating the darks from the lights but about expanding the word yeah being allowing more people to have the words. Yeah.

2:03:04That says it. That says it better than I can say it. Thank you. I don't think so. Well, I would like to make a toast to Wally. Wally, you just outdid yourself. It's a Wally Palouse of a book.

2:03:15Tayari Jones:Today, we're talking to an author who is no stranger to our club. Her novel, The Poisoned Wood Bible, was my pick over 22 years ago, back in 2000, and her new book, Demon Copperhead, is being called by so many critics one of the best of the year. She's also one of America's best known and revered authors. And we welcome you, Ms. Kingsolver. We, you know, were sitting together 22 years ago talking about another one of my favorite novels of yours, The Poisonwood Bible. I still, I never looked at ants the same after that, or A Rainy Season, or a monsoon. And I know that all of the books are precious to you and are like children.

2:04:01Tayari Jones:But when you send them off into the world, whether it's Poisonwood Bible or Unsheltered or Flight Behavior, and now Demon Copperhead, was there something about Demon that resonated or lingered in a way that some of the others had not. I was pretty nervous, honestly, to send this really, truly, deeply Appalachian kid out into the world. I feel maternal toward him. I wanted people to hear him and to love him. And we do, indeed. Are you surprised? I mean, premiered on the New York Times bestseller list, number two, Chasing John Grisham. Are you surprised at how deeply Demon is resonating with people all over the country and the world?

2:05:03I'm really, really happy about it. And of course, you know, as novelists, if we do our job right, if we do our best, our characters will translate. You know, they will cross all the boundaries. And that's something I really wanted to do with this book, to sort of approach these terrible divides we have in our country right now, you know, between rural and urban. And so, you know, so many, so many things divide us. And I wanted this book to reach across those divides and to sort of maybe generate some empathy in readers for people that they don't know well and maybe have misunderstood.

2:05:50Tayari Jones:Well, you know, we all know what it's what it's like to be looked down upon. And Barbara, you've taken us inside what that feels like. did anyone relate to demon or how did you relate to demon is a better question. Jen, can I ask you that? So what really, really spoke to me was when demon's mother passed away and how you really captured his anguish, not just only at that time, but throughout his whole life where something that hits you so deep to your core. That's not a just one time getting over. It's an anger that you have that is inside of you that burns the rest of your life. And it's constantly working on forgiveness and how do you live your life with this new perspective?

2:06:42And when I was younger, my sister died and it changed our whole life to say the least. Did you have anyone that passed away in your life that you could relate to that type of feeling too? Well, sure. I mean, I've had terrible losses in my life. And I think that one of the things that I remember being really shocking, like in the immediate aftermath of a terrible loss is when you look around and see the world just going on and you can't believe it. You know, it feels like everything has changed. And I tried to capture that in the scene where Demon is alone in the undertaker's car driving to the cemetery.

2:07:27And he's sitting in the back by himself because there's no other family. And he's watching the driver who's the undertaker's son. And there's a woman, a young woman sitting with him who's no relation to this funeral. And he realizes the driver is hitting on this woman. They're flirting with each other.

2:07:46Tayari Jones:That was such a powerful moment written so subtly because we have all experienced that. Anybody who's lost anyone where you are in the middle of your deep grief or you're going through a crisis or you feel like the world's falling apart and you look out the window and people are just laughing and going on with their lives in a way that you're like, whoa. We all know about the addiction crisis in America, but what was enhanced in your knowing after reading Demon? Antonia, anything? You know, it didn't feel like it was always something that people were intentionally choosing to pursue, right? And so how life kind of unfolds and things are presented to you and you use what is available to you and you make the best decision that you can in the time.

2:08:37And I found that in the story, I was really empathetic to the people who, like, one, were obviously impacted by this opioid crisis and the way that it was unfolding in their life, because you often don't have a say in what you're surrounded by.

2:08:53Tayari Jones:Tim, what was your takeaway? It starts with Demon's mom, and you kind of want to tell her, get it together for your son. You know, like, try to do something to get it together. And then you read and you fall so care so much about these characters. And then when it happens to demon as well, you realize that just like Antonia said, the empathy of this is a sickness. It's not something that he wanted. It's not something that he sought out. It was something that he was dealing with. And you really, Barbara, you created such a character that you might have walked into the book feeling one thing. And by the middle, you're just like, I just want to help you.

2:09:32I just want to, you know, I just want to either, you know, have him go to a better foster care or something. And it's just, it was just so amazing to me how much you just cared.

2:09:43Tayari Jones:Can we speak to Aunt June and what that meant, Barbara? Because I think the fact that she was so enlightened at a time when other people were not was really significant for those of us, for the reader. I met a number and talked with a number of people who have been through this, who have been through opioid addiction and are coming out the other side with recovery. Just listen to their stories, which broke my heart. And every one of them, I just need to say this, every one of them started with a prescription from a doctor and instructions to say, take these pills, you know, set your alarm clock, stay ahead of the pain, do it exactly as I'm telling you, because that's what the drug company said and they promised it was not addictive.

2:10:33That's how it happens through with a sports injury as happened with demon or a work injury. And that's where the character of Aunt June comes in because she feels hoodwinked because she, like all the other doctors around, were given false information. They were presented with false studies from Purdue Pharma that said, this is absolutely not addictive. And so Aunt June, she's the nurse practitioner who's caught in the middle, who understands, who's first to understand when these patients are coming back and getting angry because they're saying, I'm sick. I'm still sick. I need more of these pills.

2:11:12And she's the one to see what's going on. And this is how it actually happened.

2:11:16Tayari Jones:Okay, before you meet Cormac McCarthy, I want to share a little bit about his masterpiece, The Road. For those of you who've read it, you know what a masterpiece it is. It's a story of survival that takes place in a post-apocalyptic America. Imagine that. Well, I couldn't. That's why I chose the book. When you started The Road, did you know where it was going to end or did it end itself? No, I had no idea where it was going. Where did this apocalyptic dream come from? Well, it's interesting because usually you don't know where a book comes from. You just, it just, it's just there, some kind of an itch that you can't quite scratch.

2:11:51And my son, John, about four years ago, he and I went to El Paso. He's eight now. Yeah. And we checked into the old hotel there. And one night, John was asleep. It was night. It was probably about two or three o 'clock in the morning. And I went over and I just stood and looked out the window at this town. It was nothing moving, but I could hear the trains going through and that very, very lonesome sound. I just had this image of what this town might look like in 50 or 100 years. I just had this image of these fires up on the hill and everything being laid waste, and I thought a lot about my little boy.

2:12:30And so I wrote those pages, and that was the end of it. And then about four years later, I was in Ireland, and I woke up one morning, and I realized that it wasn't two pages of another book. It was a book, and it was about that man and that little boy.

2:12:42Tayari Jones:The Road is dedicated to Cormac's eight-year-old son, John Francis. Is this a love story to your son?

2:12:54In a way, I suppose it is. It's kind of embarrassing. I suppose it is, yeah. I just saw you blush. Yeah. But, no, it couldn't have been when I called you at first. You said, when I said people want to know where this book came from, you said, well, it's obvious. It came because my son practically co-wrote this book. Yeah. Had you not had this son at this time, this book wouldn't have been written. No, absolutely not. Never would have occurred to me to try to write a book about a father and a son. What is it like being a father at this particular time in your life? How is it different? I think you appreciate it more.

2:13:32Yeah, if you're young and have a child, it's, you know, okay, so you got a kid, you know, But to have a child when you're older, it wrenches you up out of your nap and makes you look at things afresh. It forces the world on you. Yeah, and I think it's a good thing. Are we to ever know what actually happened? All kinds of critics and fans of yours read all kinds of things into it. Some people say it's about the journey of man on earth. It's about a man's spiritual journey here on earth. Is that true or is it just about the man and the boy on the road? Well, I like to think it's just about the boy and the man on the road.

2:14:23but obviously you can draw conclusions about all sorts of things from reading the book, depending on your taste. It's a pretty simple, straightforward story, I think. You know, it's so interesting. I think if we had read this book 25 years ago, 20 years ago, it would have seemed futuristic. But something about it feels ominous and real. I think it is maybe since 9-11 people are more concerned about apocalyptic issues. We're not used to that. I was going to say, we're not accustomed to that. We're not used to that. Not accustomed to living in fear, being anxious about what's going to happen tomorrow.

2:15:11Yeah, we've had it pretty good. This country has been very lucky, just like me. So you know that now it's on people's minds when you were writing it. Obviously it was on your mind. What do you want us to get from this book in particular? It would be just simply care about things and people and be more appreciative. Life is pretty damn good, even when it looks bad. And we should appreciate it more. We should be grateful. I don't know who to be grateful to, but you should be thankful for what you have. You haven't worked out the God thing or not yet? Well, it would depend on what day you ask me.

2:15:54But sometimes it's good to pray. I don't think you have to have a clear idea of who or what God is in order to pray. You could even be quite doubtful about the whole business. Do you care if now millions of people are reading your books versus when there were only a few thousand reading your books in the early years? You know, in all honesty, I have to say that I really don't. I just don't. I mean, you would like for the people that would appreciate the book to read it, but as far as many, many people reading it, so what? I mean, it's okay. There's nothing wrong with it. It's not going to particularly brighten my day.

2:16:35Well, you are a different kind of author, let me tell you. It's such a pleasure to meet you. An honor to have this interview. Well, thank you. You're very nice. Really, an honor. You are a different kind of author. That's good. Read it if you want to. If you don't, it's okay. That's great.

2:16:50Tayari Jones:First of all, just let me say congratulations, because this book took my breath away. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. When you started with the premise, where did the idea come from, the Underground Railroad? It was about 16 years ago, and I think a lot of people when they're kids, they hear about the Underground Railroad. Right. I think it's an actual subway, you know, for a few minutes, and then they're sadly disillusioned of that. And so about 16 years ago, I thought, what if the Underground Railroad actually was a literal underground network? And I started thinking about some more. And then I thought, what if, as our hero travels north, every state he goes through, and he was he at that point, each different state, North Carolina, South Carolina, was a different state of American possibility.

2:17:38And so each time she gets off at a station and comes up from the underground, she finds a different alternative America, slightly tweaked, but a different sort of state of possibility.

2:17:52Tayari Jones:And that first time she comes up, which I've often thought about this since Beloved, you know, Toni Morrison's. Surely. Yeah. That line where you got to get out of the yard, you got to leave the yard in her book, when she's speaking of the character Denver. I often thought about the slaves who never left the yard. And then suddenly, after thinking about it for a long time, planning the escape, make the decision, and you've never been any further than the front yard. It's just the most incredible thing. Yeah, you've never stepped off the property and... You never knew a world bigger than the front yard.

2:18:31All you've known is the tragedy of the plantation. Yes. And what kind of... How do you get the courage to make that first step? Yes. And then once you do and you're off across the boundary line, how do you keep going? And so you're waiting for years. You're waiting for the full moon. Then you finally make that leap.

2:18:46Tayari Jones:You know, I remember when I was promoting the movie Beloved, I was being interviewed by a group of African-American journalists who actually said to me, why do we need another story about slavery? Why do we need another story about slavery? I go, how many have you seen? Because we don't know. Nobody knows. You know, I feel I'm reasonably educated. You know, my first experience with understanding slavery was when I was seven and Roots was on and my parents, you know, gathered us, all our kids, and run the TV. This is how we got here. This is what, you know, your ancestors encountered. And in college, you cite American history.

2:19:27Right. Small section on slavery. and I think coming to the material as an adult, as a grown-up, definitely changed the way I approached it. I think it's one thing to understand it when you're seven, in your 20s, to understand the after effects of slavery, which reverberate in most segments of society now, but then to understand what it is to lose a parent, a child. You know, I have children now and...

2:19:58Tayari Jones:To never have the stability of knowing. This is what I say to people. Never have the stability of knowing that your child really is yours and that your family can be together as long as, you know, God has designed it, you know, or the world has designed it. Because you can come back from a cotton field and your children are gone, your husband's gone, your mother's gone, you are gone. Yes, you're property and your children are property. You're property. You've been bought because you can actually make more slaves, like a mint making money. Did you feel in yourself the spirit of, there's a wonderful line that Maya Angelou wrote in one of her poems, I think it's Poem Dark Grandmother's, where she says, I come as one and I stand as 10 ,000.

2:20:42Tayari Jones:Could you feel in some way the spiritual presence of generations who paved the way as you wrote this book? I feel, I think Cora does. I mean, you know, I'm trying to find a language of hope for somebody who's completely hopeless. And I think when she gets to the library, she's on a plantation, a farm, and the person she's staying with has a great library of all the black poets, black thinkers, Benjamin Banneker, the black almanac maker. His books are in there. And she's inspired, but she had no idea that there's any sort of history outside of the degradation of slavery. And so we create moments like that where she's gone through hundreds of pages of trials and is learning and figuring out who she is to get to moments like that where she's in the library and sees that she's part of a great lineage and part of the future as well.

2:21:43I mean, people she touched, you know, the children that she helps out and helps along the way are the next generation of survivors and people who will carry on, carry on the battle.

2:21:55Tayari Jones:When I read The Sweetness of Water, first thing I do is I go, I look at the author to see who is writing. And there you are. Yes, ma 'am. Okay, next time I say smile a little bit, will you? Okay. Big grin. But I go to see the author and, you know, where these words are coming from. And then I looked you up and saw that, you know, you were just this beautiful young man who is writing your first novel. And I just couldn't even believe what I was reading. You know, and I kept going back and looking at the picture, looking at the picture and then referencing that. So it's called The Sweetness of Water, and it's set in a fictional town of old Ox, Georgia, in 1865, when in the days and months immediately following the Emancipation Proclamation and the end of the Civil War.

2:22:51Tayari Jones:And what I marveled at is the fact that I've read many books on reconstruction, but I never thought about those first few days and weeks after the Civil War. And I certainly wouldn't imagine a young 27-year-old at the time you started writing this thinking about those days. So how did this story come about for you? God, I love books about the Civil War and Reconstruction. But I think if you're going to write a novel, you have to have a new angle. You have to bring readers something they haven't experienced before. And for me, I'm always curious. and I was reading about slaves just being freed and what they were going through and that initial moment of freedom.

2:23:40And I was wondering, gosh, why haven't I read that before in a novel? And then it struck me, why don't you do it? And I was immediately like, I can't do that. Of course I can't do that because I'm 20. Oh, at the time, 27, you know? But then I was like, well, what am I doing here? If I want to write a book, let's just do it.

2:23:58Tayari Jones:Had you thought of writing any kind of book before? Oh, sure. I mean, it was always my wish. It was always the dream to write a novel, you know? I love books, you know? So were you great in English class? Did you love words? Were you writing little stories as a little boy? Yeah, that was exactly right. I mean, I still remember being in, I think, second or third grade, and we all got to write these little picture books. And then we would all read each other's. And there was a long line to read mine. and I thought there was a long line there was a line yeah it was kind of like a little horror story and everybody was kind of like it's kind of scary and they're just seeing everybody engaging with it okay you were throwing down in the second grade yeah exactly everybody wants to read Nathan stories in the second grade and it was all I could do I mean it's hard growing up when you can't do you know you can't do math you know science is the sciences and then I found out that writing just came naturally to me and I just loved about that writing just came naturally to me and I just loved stories yeah it feels like it yeah you know why it feels like it from sentences like I love this I mean the poetry of it the lilies upon the water unified like a carefully drawn illustration the water reflecting his image made beautiful if only by the beauty that surrounded him.

2:25:26Tayari Jones:He loved the silence so totally encompassing that his thoughts arrived as if he were speaking the sentences full and alive, the sort a preacher might thunder to an audience who would respond with whoops and wild amens. Here, things were different for the sliver of time he was allowed. the pond was his. You put us right there. Yeah. Yeah. To the point where we could feel the sweetness of the water. Okay, so how long does it take you to come up with sentences like that? Was that a day's work? Multiple days' work? Yeah. I mean, it can be something where I can imagine the scene, but then it'll be weeks or months later where those are the moments of almost poetry where a line will just come to me and I go immediately back.

2:26:26I'm transported back to that moment in the book and I run to my computer or I run to my phone to put it in and I know it has to go there. And it just strikes me.

2:26:36Tayari Jones:Okay, so you were interested in the Civil War as a young man. Yeah. And how did the characters start to form? First of all, their names, Landry and Prentiss. Did you do research for that time period to discover what people would be called or what their names would have been enslaved? I don't know how I struck on those two, but the bills of sale for slaves were, even just reading the names on there, You can almost feel the energy from it in a way, and you're kind of transported back to that time period. You're talking to the choir. You know I have them all in my library. I do. And actually, when I was filming the movie Beloved, I took them with me to my trailer so that in the morning I would recite their names.

2:27:28Tayari Jones:Yeah. Wow. To put me in the spirit. That's remarkable. Yeah. So I just had that exact same experience. And again, reading the oral histories that have been put down when they talk to these freed people, you can hear it in the dialect. They record the dialect of how they were talking. And that's how they explain that moment. It's so authentic, more authentic even than I could ever, you know, even with the poetics. The way they are talking about it is more resonant. And I was just inspired by it. And I just felt like I needed or wanted to use my imagination to build on that in a way that justified what they had gone through.

2:28:11Tayari Jones:No, and I think you captured it so beautifully in this sentence on page 24 when you're talking about emancipation. The notion of true emancipation had always seemed so fantastical that were it to occur, Prentiss had expected the heralds of a bugle, rows of men in lockstep who would descend upon Majesty's Palace like angels brought down to serve the aims of God himself. In the actual event, it was nothing but a few young men in blue uniforms as scraggy as the clothes that Prentice and Landry had on themselves. And I thought, wow, of course, if you have all these years been thinking about what freedom looks like, if you were ever emancipated, if there's even a possibility that that can happen, You would think that, you know, Gabriel and the trumpets and Jesus and the disciples and all would have to come for that deliverance when, in fact, it was something far more common.

2:29:13Yeah, far more common. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, again, you try to embody your characters and being in Prentice's mind, which was very difficult at times. But just you're waiting for that moment your entire life and you don't think it's ever going to come. And I almost in my mind, I was thinking almost every day he was fantasizing more about it every week and month. And then finally it happened. And of course, it wasn't going to live up to it.

2:29:42Tayari Jones:One of the things that really inspired me or struck me is the way you inspire empathy in the reader. I believe so powerfully in the ability of books to create empathy. That's what books can allow us to see and know people in a way that you wouldn't have, even if you don't have those people in your life. Why was empathy important for you? God, I think I'm right with you. I think empathy is the reason we read. To put yourself in the shoes of a person who doesn't look like you, or again, is from a different class than you, or even people who are doing evil things. There's a reason they're doing evil things, and we need to investigate that.

2:30:27But, you know, I tried to show sides to even the villainous characters that, you know, we could almost relate to. And I think that's necessary so we can, I don't know, come to learn more about our common people, the people who are around us in our community, and that's necessary for us to grow as people. Guess who's coming to dinner? Sidney Poitier.

2:30:55This is a book that I have loved for a very long time. It's a spiritual autobiography, and it's called The Measure of a Man. In all, seven special readers would join Sidney Poitier for our dinner of a lifetime. What do you think, Mr. Poitier, that all of us are gathered around this table here in the year 2007 to talk about a book that you wrote several years ago and also a book that really is an extension of the first book, This Life, that you wrote, I don't know, in the 60s. What do you think of that? Well, it would be the sixth time I have pinched myself because of this gathering. I am greatly honored by it.

2:31:37I am greatly honored by your presence, and I'm looking forward to the exchange. it isn't just the dinner that brought me here. I've heard about you people and I find what I know of you to be very impressive. And I thank you for coming. You describe yourself as lucky a lot, Mr.

2:31:59Oprah Winfrey:Poitier, in the book. How do you feel about the word luck? It sounds like through reading it, you were more prepared than lucky. Because you believe in that definition that I believe in, that I believe there's no such thing as luck. that it's preparation, meeting the moment of opportunity. But he does use the word lucky a lot. Yeah, well, I think luck is akin to serendipity. It implies that out of nowhere, serendipity dips down and kisses us on a cheek, and wonderful things happen to us. And these forces are influential in our lives. They help to mold us and to shape us. I believe that we have free will.

2:32:44I believe, too, that free will operates within this frame of nature and God, if you will. But we have responsibilities. It is not that we can sit back. Tell this group what you were telling me. You were saying that even now you still see things through the eyes of your mother. Yes, I do. The whole experience that my mom had with the soothsayer. Yes. Yeah. Tell us that. Tell you that. Read the book. Well, she was, as you know, I was born prematurely by more than two months. And I was less than three pounds. There were no doctors. There were midwives in those days for us. It didn't look good, obviously, for me.

2:33:39But by the end of the following day, there seemed to be absolutely no hope. So she stopped at this soothsayer. They sat down. And the soothsayer was in some kind of trance. And she stayed in it for a while. And when her eyes flew open, she said some things to my mother. She said, don't worry about your son. He will grow up to travel to most of the corners of the earth. He will walk with kings. Your name will be carried all over the world. For 50 cents, my mother found the support she needed for backing a long shot. So here your mother was, this poor, you know, wife of a tomato farmer on Cat Island, and she told her that you would see the world and that you would walk with kings.

2:34:37Come on, say it. Walk with James. Says the soothsayer. I'd like to get her in here today. I have to assume, at least I had to assume, that I am left with the responsibility to effectuate my own survival. I was lucky, though, too, you know. Lucky. I think that there are things way beyond our understanding. Yes. Do you think that that force was working with you when you first moved to New York City, arriving in the city not even having adequate clothing and it turns cold and you're in New York City sleeping on the rooftops with not even a coat? I don't think that we make many moves without the force knowing about it.

2:35:25If you call it God or not. If you call it God or not. We still have responsibilities. Isn't it amazing, astounding that he was just this boy alone, basically. Boy. He was a boy, alone, moving, you know, on the train, arriving in New York City, trying to figure it out. And in figuring it out, you came to this profound idea, this profound theory of life that you are responsible for you.

2:35:52Oprah Winfrey:And I think you ultimately paid it forward by showing black people what was possible. You know, the importance of speaking well. That question bothers me a lot. The question of education. We are too rich a country to have inner city education what it is. It is each family, I believe, who has the responsibility to educate their children. No matter what their own education is. Right. It's interesting because I work with inner city kids, and what was so brilliant about when I introduced the book to them, they said, wow, I didn't know Sidney Poitier could barely read in the beginning. And that register, they could connect with us because they can really...

2:36:48Because Sidney Poitier and so many others now stand for what is possible. Exactly. I'd like to make a toast. I'd like to make a toast to the forces. I'd like to thank the forces, whatever you choose to call the forces, that allowed me to, at 10 years old, the forces that put me in front of my Magnavox black and white television set to see Sidney Poitier receive the Academy Award and planted that seed. that moment that I saw you, I've told this story many times before, but it is true, the moment that I saw him accept the award for Lilies of the Field, it said to me that this is possible because what your life has meant to all of us says that your love, your sense of honor, your sense of integrity, it is possible for all of us.

2:37:37And so here's to you and here's to your beautiful book, Measure of a Man. It's here. Here's to you who I've loved my entire life and even before I was born. Oh, my goodness. Sydney Poitier. Salud. Salud. Salud. Salud.

2:37:56Tayari Jones:Our listeners who tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube. or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.

2:38:42Thank you.