We've Never Been Meaner. Here's Why.

0:00Why does it seem like people are so mean these days? Have you all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner, like civility has left the building. So what is going on? The environment around us has changed and it's triggering us to be mean. I was so surprised to read this, that healthcare is America's most dangerous profession due to workplace violence. And you've had things thrown at you is what I'm saying. 100%. A patient broke my nurse's hand. There's something about flying that seems to bring out just the worst in people. What's the worst thing somebody said to you? I had a gentleman that said to me, I violate women like you.

0:42Wow. So what is the path forward? Can you give us a reason to hope that things are going to get better? I mean, I have lots of answers to that. I know you do. Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining me on the Oprah podcast. A heartfelt welcome to this audience who all look so great and worked on looking great this morning. Congratulations to yourselves.

1:10Really impressed. I had a conversation on this podcast, actually, with Kristen Cabot. Many of you may have seen it. She's the woman who was on that Coldplay Kiss Cam video that went viral all over the world. So viral. I mean, when they told me that it had 300 billion views, I couldn't believe it because I was like, well, there's only 8 billion people on the planet. How does 300 billion people see it? Apparently, people were passing it around and sharing it and sharing. And she told me about the just the deluge of vitriol that was directed at her online, which obviously was bad enough, but people also had the nerve, after her address was put on the radio, to drive by her house and even walk up to her in public in front of her children to verbally attack her, just saying mean, awful things.

2:04And of course, as we talked about on that show, she even received death threats. Okay. And I feel so strongly, y 'all can say what you want, but I feel strongly that she did not deserve that on any level for being out with her boss. Okay. So after talking with Kristen, I kept wondering what is happening to us in this world? Why does it seem like people are so mean these days? Have y 'all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner, right? Like civility has left the building. And then I found out I'm not alone in feeling this way. Take a look. Y 'all, I just got on a target and I'm about to lose my freaking mind.

2:46People are so

2:51rude. What's wrong with people? We have lost all sense of humanity and compassion. We have. We've lost it. I don't understand mean people. I don't understand how you wake up in the morning and your first thought is, how do I be as mean as possible today? I can't stand mean people. Go to therapy. Take a pottery class. Go hug a tree. I don't know, but sort out your issues. I mean, like, people don't hold doors anymore. They don't say, please, thank you, you're welcome. People don't care how they speak to you, how they make you feel. Everybody's just so insensitive, and I can't understand what happened.

3:24Like, what made everybody like this? Yeah, that's exactly what we're asking today. So, you know, there's a recent study that found that 53 % of Americans believe that society is uncivil. more than a third say that they almost always or often see people behaving rudely when they go out in public. And to help us understand what is at the root of this, I'm joined by Dr. Jay Van Bevel. Now he says I can call him Dr. Jay. Yeah. You're the other one. So that's what we're going to be doing today. Dr. Jay is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at New York University and the director of the NYU Center for Conflict and Cooperation.

4:09He's also the co-author of The Power of Us. The Power of Us. Great title, right? The Power of Us, Harnessing Our Shared Identities to Improve Performance, Increase Cooperation, and Promote Social Harmony. Thank you so much for having me, Oprah. So what is going on? I'm a social psychologist, so what that means to me is what in our environments have changed because social psychology means you study this stuff yeah i study this stuff i i do research on this and been studying it for 20 years and the main lesson when you see this is not that humans have become meaner human nature has not really changed in the last decade or more it has not it has not and so when you see people becoming meaner to one another including online what you have to understand is that the environment around us has changed and it's triggering us to be mean and lack a sense of civility towards one another.

5:04Okay, so if it's triggering us to be mean, that means they've become meaner. Our behaviors become meaner. Our human nature has not changed. And so what that means is... We're basically good? Well, we can be better. If you change the environment, people will be less mean. So people are being mean because of the environment? Yes. Okay, explain that. Okay. So there's lots of reasons why people become mean or lack civility. One of it is when you're under stress. So like when people are struggling financially, that is something that can trigger them to lash out more. They're under a lot of cognitive distress when that's happening.

5:42They're thinking about it all the time. They have a hard time regulating themselves. So that's kind of what's bubbling up from a lot of people. They're facing stressors in their own life that have increased. This isn't the first time in the world that people have faced stressors. I mean, people went through the depression and people were still kind to each other and trying to help their neighbors and had the attitude of, like, if you're in trouble, then your family's in trouble. We're going to help your family. I mean, I, okay, so. Okay, so you're 100 % right. So we've faced these other stressors before and haven't acted this way, okay?

6:16Right. So the stressors are increasing, but then what's happening in our social environment? And the things that are happening is there's less of a sense of us, a sense of common connection and purpose. And so people are more disconnected and isolated than ever. They're rewarded for that when they go online. There's not really a strong sense of treating somebody who's different than you as part of your community. And then the other thing is that our norms have eroded, that we see other people acting like this, and that makes it more acceptable for us to do it. And so when you tell about the story of Kristen Cabot, no one might have done that but once they see you know tens or hundreds or thousands of other people mocking her ridiculing her shaming her they feel um an urge to do it too partly it's because human nature is we look to other people like us to see what they're doing and then we do the same thing so is it also because of i mean social media gets blamed for a lot of things but This is also because of the anonymity involved in social media, that you can say mean things, act however you want to act, and nobody actually knows who you are.

7:22Yeah, it's a few things in social media. So one of it is you can be really mean as an anonymous person. You control others, and some people do that. But a lot of people are actually doing it under their own name, from their own accounts. And part of the reason they do it is because one of the things that gets rewarded on social media is expressing moral outrage. Yeah. And so some people are feeling moral outrage. They're projecting their own issues into the situation. But other people are seeing the outrage and feeling like, oh, I better express mine so I signal that I'm a good person. That's where you start to get the pylon where you say 300 billion people saw it and there's this massive pylon.

7:57It's because of all of these things kind of getting amplified. And then you have technology, the algorithms are amplifying whatever's driving engagement. Yeah, I thought it was interesting that a celebrity, this is Doja Cat, recently was talking about Timothee Chalamet and then later posted that she shouldn't have been talking about Timothee Chalamet. Did you all see that post? She then said, you know, I shouldn't have even been posting about that because what I really needed was a hug. Yeah. And what I really needed was, you know, and that she was doing that to show her moral outrage because she thought she would get a lot of people who would be supporting that.

8:36And I thought that was really brave of her, insightful of her, and a really great sense of self-awareness to actually say that. Because most people do it and they don't even know that's why they're doing it. Exactly. Yeah. They either don't know that's why they're doing it or they don't want to admit it. Yes. So you say that life in America today is like being a child in a family where the parents are constantly fighting. And I remember many years ago hearing an expert say that when you fight in front of your children, you change who they are. Yes. So how is that affecting us if we are like a child in a family where the parents are constantly fighting?

9:16Yeah. Okay. So what we're talking about there is the psychological impact and the stress that causes on kids. And so when kids are in a home where the parents are fighting all the time, it causes them stress. You can measure it in their physiology, but also they become very sensitive to anything that might be distressing in their environment. They see threats that might not even be there. And so they're hyper attuned to potential threats. And so when you live in a universe where the parents are always fighting with one another, that causes us stress, but it also makes us hypersensitive to seeing threats in our environment.

9:50And the reason we feel that way is because we're surrounded by it everywhere, right? You turn on the news and it causes a sense of tension. And even though you don't think you're taking it in, it allows you to be stressful. It's not only stressful, but then it's a role model. So one of the big things we talk about with parents is how they become good role models. If our leaders in society are acting like that, then also we are more likely to think it's acceptable ourselves. Absolutely. So I understand that there's a new Stanford study found that AI chatbots are actually making people behave worse in real life.

10:26How is that possible? Okay. So we just talked about social media as one technology and engagement-based algorithms amplifying this. Okay. So now let's talk about the new technology. Yes. The fastest growing technology in human history is artificial intelligence. Just out of curiosity, how many people here have talked to a chatbot? Okay. So you have like 90, 80 % of people in this room. Chatbots are also designed to keep us engaged. And so one of the features this new study found that you mentioned is that they are 50 % more sycophantic than real humans. So if you're interacting with a chatbot, it's going to tell you you're brilliant, you're right.

11:01Okay. So what is the consequences of that? we've heard about these delusions and mental health spirals from people but it can actually harm our relationships yeah so the study that you mentioned they find that if you're talking about let's say conflict in your family or with a good friend and you're asking your chap out for advice it's going to agree with you agrees with you and so you're going to tell you you're right it tells you you're right and so if you know you're right then you're not going to make an effort to repair the relationship we also studied in my lab at NYU and what we find is if you're talking about about value-based issues, it tells you you're right, and then you become more extreme and more overconfident in your beliefs.

11:38And the other thing, and this is the worst part, Oprah, is that people don't even see it. They have a blind spot to it because everybody loves to hear how brilliant they are. And when they hear that, they're thinking, oh, of course. It just affirms them. Yeah, it just affirms them. Affirms them. Yeah, we did a whole podcast on this. People are, you know, falling in love with their chatbot. But unfortunately, people are also harming themselves because of their chatbot. So there's something about flying, though, that seems to bring out just the worst in people. And it didn't always be that way. I'm old enough to have been in the air where people actually dressed up to go on flights.

12:16It was such a big deal to be on a flight, like you're wearing gloves and dressing up and stuff. Not anymore. People barely bathe.

12:27Yes. So the Department of Transportation reports that the number of unruly passenger events has doubled since 2019, with one in five flight attendants reporting experiencing physical incidents. Watch this. Hey, wait, I'm f***ing nice. What is this? I have 45 minutes. I am, son of a... What? Stop! We're going f***ing nice. We're going f***ing nice. We are in a f***ing tin can with a baby in a f***ing tin can. That don't change, brother. And you want to talk to me about being ****, OK? Wow. Why does it show up on airplanes so much? OK, so airplanes are not the internet. What's happening on airplanes?

13:25This is real life. So I said, the situation is different, right, from when you flew. And when I remember flying my first few times, you never saw anything like this. And so what's happening is that something has changed in their environment. And what I would say is, first of all, if you're on a flight, a lot of the seats have gotten smaller and smaller. Someone mentioned we're all in this tin can together. So it's a distressing experience. Now, I'm going to tell you about a study, Oprah, that kind of explains a little bit of the new situation. The research finds, this is a great study, they find if people enter a plane and they have to walk past all the first-class seats before they get to theirs, they're far more likely to experience air rage.

14:01So what is it that's triggering it? What is it that's triggering it? They're seeing, oh, these people have way more than me. Yeah. And then I'm crammed in this tiny seat, and that is more likely to make them feel resentful and frustrated and lash out. Okay. Well, Cher knows this very well. The other Cher. Hey, Cher. Okay, Cher's been a flight attendant for seven years, and those videos ring true for you? Unfortunately, yes. Aviation has not been exempt from the decline in civility. I say I make the best dinner party guests because I have so many stories. And I've come across behavior that has just left me speechless.

14:40I've had an incident with a gentleman that while we were conducting cabin service, he needed to use the restroom and typically, you know, we'll pass their row or try to back up to let them use the restroom, especially, you know, once the seatbelt signs off. He went back to his seat, didn't give us a chance to move. And after we had finished service, maybe 20 minutes later, he came to the front galley and was really irate and he was holding a cup. And flight attendants have some spidey senses because we've seen it all. and I asked, sir, what is that? And including foul language, he said it's pee.

15:16And he was in a middle seat on a full flight. So I don't know. The people next to him didn't complain, but he took his cup and dumped it out in the lavatory sink. And I was left, I mean, with nothing to say. All I could say is, sir, you can't do that. That's the only thing I could get out of my mouth. I was just so shocked. And yeah, stories like that, unfortunately, I have plenty of them. So what do you do when you're in a situation where somebody is unruly or potentially violent or upset? What do you do? What are you all trained to do? We are trained to diffuse. That's our number one priority is diffuse the situation.

15:57And I think a lot of the time people feel outrage because they want to be heard. And usually with an average person that's maybe upset, they missed their previous flight, but you have to assume they've been through really tumultuous situations. I pretty much try to assume on every flight that I work that you have someone that's going to a wedding, going to a baby shower, you have someone that's going to a funeral. You can't, you have to assume that they're going through something when they're traveling, and that's usually true. So when it comes to handling them, I try to make them feel heard, and obviously we have limits because there's safety rules and there's other things.

16:30You can't make everyone happy. but I try to give two choices that are both, you know, something that's allowed and allow them to feel like they have a little bit of the control back. That typically helps but with situations like that, I mean, we were moving out of the way to let him use the lavatory but it didn't make a difference. He was going to do... What's the worst thing somebody said to you? I had a gentleman that through another incident, he said to me, I violate women like you. Whoa. And that was really, That was one that, I mean, left me speechless. And he suffered, we had law enforcement involved in that, and he suffered no consequences for his actions.

17:10I violate women like you. That was his first response to me, yeah. Wow. And it just gives you chills. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just don't expect, you're locked in a metal tube with someone like that. And, you know, you do your best to vet them at the door, but you don't know who they are or what they're going through when they come on board. Do you have a question for Dr. J? So I guess I try to look at things in a really positive light. And as somebody that wants to spread positivity, and I'm in a position where I get to meet so many people and spread positivity, what is something that I can do to help with the decline of civility?

17:44Yeah, so first of all, those stories are awful. No one should have to deal with that. I just really, I cringed with the first story and gasped with the second. I'm glad the peace stayed in the cup. I thought he was going to throw it at her. It did go in the sink. Yeah, I thought he was going to throw the pee out. I was more worried about the people sitting next to him when he filled the cup. Yeah. So first of all, you get to touch a lot of people's lives because you're dealing with people all day long, huge groups of them. And so I think the first thing, obviously, because you're stuck in this tin can is de-escalate these situations.

18:15I can see the challenge of you do not want to up-escalate. You saw all the videos of what happens when that unfolds. But I think the best you can do is try to, you know, make a positive impression on all of the other people. The other thing you might be able to do, so when I saw the videos and I've seen these debates and videos go viral on social media where people are fighting about whether they can, like, push back their chair or not, that gets to one of my first points to Oprah about norms. The reason you have those presumably is because the airplane wants to let you do that. That's part of what you're paying for.

18:47But if people don't think that's acceptable, they're going to push back against it. They're fighting against the fact that they don't really see that as a norm anymore. And so I think one of the things you can really control as a flight attendant and people who are, like, running the airplane is really making it clear what the norms are about how the staff should be treated, but also how you will treat them and how they should treat one another. And I think, like, making those very clear is one of the most powerful things you can do to really kind of change behavior in a positive way. Awesome.

19:16Yeah. God bless you. Thank you. Every day. I love what I do. That actually helps, right? It actually helps. Thank you, Cher. This is the thing. I was so surprised to read this, that health care is America's most dangerous profession due to workplace violence. In fact, there's a staggering 76 % of health care workers have reported experiencing violence on the job. And Dr. Bhumi Patel is an emergency medicine doctor. And I thank you for being here. We did not know this. Do we know that... But you do. I know. I know. 76 %? 76%. That's three-quarters of the health care workers. Three-quarters of the health care workers.

20:07I thought flight attendants had it bad. No, no, no. This is worse. No. And I'm really so surprised, but I have one of my South African daughter girls is a doctor at the University of Pennsylvania doing her residency, And she says that she's going to move into oncology because the experience of being a resident has taught her that it's the cancer patients who actually are the most grateful. Absolutely. And everybody else treats you like? Absolutely. Yeah, the S word. So what is happening in the world? I mean, let's take a look before the pandemic. I know you had a chance to speak to our former Surgeon General, Dr.

20:49Murthy. And he pointed it very accurately that we are in a loneliness pandemic, but that's just a very small portion. What are they doing to the health care workers? That's what we're all shocked that it's 76 percent. That's all connected. We're in a loneliness pandemic. But the health care workers saw the mental health pandemic coming ages before COVID did. People were hurting. People are not only physically getting sicker mentally. they're in a lot of crisis and they don't have the support outside in the communities. So healthcare becomes your front lines. Emergency departments become your front lines for mental healthcare.

21:28You're already stressed. Cortisol levels are running high. You're hypervigilant because your environment is already a threat. Now imagine coming to the most chaotic location possible, your emergency departments for your care. Yeah. I see 60 hurt people in a day. I have five minutes to learn your story. That's not enough for you to tell me exactly what your body has been through all these years, what your brain and your psyche has been through all these years. You're already hurt. And now you feel like I don't see you, I don't hear you, I don't validate you. You're going to snap. Is that because you, meaning the health care workers, are overworked and don't have enough people to service all the people that need helping.

22:15This trend to be violent to healthcare workers, is that something new? I mean, that was the first time I've heard of those data, with the violence, just the sheer level of violence, Dr. Patel. But I will say that all the things you mentioned as kind of precursors are things that I'm aware about. Yeah. So the rise in mental health problems, the lack of treatment and resources for those. Those are happening at university campuses. I see it with my undergraduate students in my class. And then you talked about they're coming in with pain. And then there's also a level of dehumanization because they have this image of these health care workers from COVID where they're all masked up.

22:51Yeah. And I'm a New Yorker. So I remember during that wave of first wave of the pandemic where everybody was a hero. We were out of our windows, trapped in our apartments, cheering at like 7 p.m. every night, banging pots and pans. So what happened? So the problem is you're understaffed. Yeah. And that's not your fault. That's a problem with the system. But a problem is also the norms. Again, I gave a talk and a workshop in Canada to over a thousand doctors and nurses and healthcare staff. And then I met with them after. And the stories they told me about things like conspiracy theories and misinformation.

23:25They now don't trust their doctors or their nurses. You give them advice and they don't even believe it. And all the medical health staff told me. Conspiracy theories. That's a whole rabbit hole. But a lot of medical staff that I talk to are not even trained to deal with that because they're used to being, we're the experts. You come to us for treatment. You take our advice and we help you. And this causes all kinds of conflict and friction in all of their interactions. And then the people there lash out. You've had things thrown at you and people. Oh, yeah. My colleagues have bared the brunt of this.

24:01I can tell you a story of my nurse. What IV doesn't hurt when you get an IV placed in you. A patient broke my nurse's hand, fractured it because his IV hurt. And then, of course, my nurse became my patient, and I had to tend to her hand. She was out of work for over 90 days. We're already understaffed. Wow. Yeah. She needs her hand to take care of patients. And you've had things thrown at you is what I'm saying. Oh, 100%. That's, you know, it's become so commonplace that, like, verbal abuse, racial slurs, what she said. you know, I violate women like you, that's common, that's so common that we've become immune to it that we don't even report it anymore because it's so common.

24:47It's a daily occurrence for some of my nurses and I. Do you think, I mean, listen, there's no one thing to blame, but I think, I don't know if some of the shows we watch on television, you know, those shows where the women are pulling each other's hair out and calling each other you bitches and things, whether or not that had an influence on us feeling, people feeling like they can say anything and do anything. This is exactly the issue. The more we see those images and people absorb them, the more they think it's acceptable to do that. And I want to just like say, when I think of healthcare workers, that's like a really altruistic job.