Your Brain on Revenge with Oprah and James Kimmel, Jr.

27:43Okay. Anna is here. You can relate to this story. So what happened, Anna? So my neighbor actually shot my dog. And for a whole week, we did not know what happened to the dog. Oh, my God, that looks like my dog, Luke. Yeah. Is it white, golden? She was a great Pyrenees. Oh, my God. She was the nicest dog ever. She wandered onto his property because he was building a garage. And she did not do anything. She sniffed the ground, literally. and he shot her. And we had this on a camera. So we were able to see where it came from. And it was horrible. We were very scared that he is going to come and shoot us next.

28:34And we have young kids, and it was very stressful. And we definitely had bad thoughts towards him. but we would never act on them. We wanted justice, whatever that means. We pursued at least that he was, you know, shamed and known for what he has done to us. But I hear you and your husband can't get over the desire for revenge. I understand that. I would feel the same way about my dogs. We loved the dog and it was so senseless. You know, he never apologized and I think that's a part of it. It seems like forgiveness. But even if you apologize, what would that do? Maybe, you know, he would seem more human.

29:18Like he understood that what he did was wrong, but we never got that sense. That he even cared that he did it. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Just like the boys who shot his dog. Yes. They didn't care. They didn't care. And so when you come to this point of forgiveness, is it that you must accept the fact that he didn't care? He shot the dog and he didn't care. You don't even need to come to that acceptance. What you need to do with forgiveness, there are two types. There's a decisional forgiveness and there's emotional. That's the more involved and complex where you're trying to repair a relationship. So with decisional forgiveness, the easier one, it's something that you do internally to yourself.

30:00And when you do this, as I say, it shuts down the painful grievance that you've held. It shuts the pain from it. It doesn't eliminate it. You're going to remember. But when it shuts that down and it shuts down the craving and reward circuitry, it begins to free you from the past. Now, I think I understand from your story, if I'm wrong, but you still live next to this person. Yes. That is incredibly difficult. And I would recommend moving as fast as I could. I mean, I mean, I had the fortune of moving, you know, when my dog was lost, I probably had to spend a year or two more. And then I, you know, went off to college.

30:41But being, having to live in close proximity to a person who's done something so heinous to you is going to be a daily, you know, triggering event almost for you. Well, I think the point that you were making earlier and that you make over and over again in the science of revenge is that you forgive for yourself. But this idea of having to feel like you're letting that guy off the hook doesn't feel right, does it? No. No, it doesn't. No. I mean, I think it was a decision. But can you let it go for yourself? Yes. But you can do it for yourself. That's why you would do it. So I think that process of non-justice going through the trial in your own mind and playing every single part of the trial.

31:32And what does that actually do to your brain? So what that's doing for you when you go through that is it does a lot of things that are necessary for all forms of trauma recovery and PTSD. So it gives you several things. It gives you one is an opportunity to be heard. One of the things that we want after we've been traumatized is we want to be heard. We want to share our story and we want to be validated that this terrible thing happened to me. So who are you telling the story to? You're telling it to yourself? But you're telling it to yourself and you might go, well, that seems so ineffective and wasteful, but it's not.

32:05And here's why. Because you are seeking justice for something that doesn't exist in this world. You don't need a courtroom that's built of stone and judges that aren't you and lawyers that aren't you. What you really need is to go inside your head where the pain lives and attack it at its root. And when you do that, and that's what we've been able to show in our studies, When you go inside of your head and you have this trial, it would be really great if we could actually illustrate a trial. People feel it. They feel that they're testifying in a court. And in truth, in the criminal and legal civil justice systems, trials rarely happen.

32:43I mean, a very small fraction of the total number of crimes that are committed and civil cases that are filed actually go to a trial. So you're never getting that anyway. And hoping for that is a fruitless hope. But here we can actually give you the trial that you want. And when you experience that, you do get to be heard, but you get more than to be heard. Then you get to hold to account. And holding to account is not the same as revenge. When you hold someone to account, you're identifying them as the person who did the wrong. And that's why I pointed out she's still living with the problem.

33:18And that's why I said my strongest recommendation would be to move away as fast as I could from that situation if you possibly can. To eliminate the pain unless you've gotten to a place of comfort where you can live side by side with this person who wronged you. No. I mean, we built a fence, which we were against. Helpful. But we built a fence so at least we don't have to see him on a daily basis. Good. And I refuse to allow him to, you know, control my sense of comfort and my sense of safety and move. And that is such a strong personality trait. A lot of people couldn't do that. And I just, that's fantastic.

33:59I really, that's a great service. I respect your right to do that. Okay. We're coming right back after a short break. What if you found out that your partner was cheating on you? Would you get revenge? Would you want revenge? We'll meet a woman who says she was so out of her mind that she took revenge to the next level. This is a wild story. Next.

34:42and Hulu for just$4.99 a month for three months with a special limited time offer ends March 24th. After three months, plan auto renews at$12.99 a month. Terms apply. Thanks for joining me here and welcome back. We're talking about the science of revenge by Yale researcher James Kimmel Jr. He's giving us plenty to think about, our own desires for revenge. Let's get back to it. So we have more people in our audience who are struggling with their craving for revenge. Courtney. I am a flight attendant, so I travel a lot for work. I was in a relationship for the past year and a half. We decided to move in together in February.

35:18I was moving into his house. I came home two weeks ago to an empty house. He told me he was planning a night at his brother's. And something inside of me just was, it just, it didn't feel right. So I went to the laptop, his laptop, and I looked through his email. I didn't see anything at first, but I discovered Uber receipts. And then I cross-checked it with my schedule. Every time I was on a layover, every time I was on a girl's trip, he was at this address. Thanks to Google, you can see who owns its public knowledge. And I saw that it was his ex-girlfriend's place. So yeah, I was... Got the receipts.

36:01Sister girl got all the receipts. You are ready. Okay, all right. You're qualified. We see you got the receipts. So I went over there. Within 15 minutes, he was coming out of her house. So when we got to the house, he tried to lock me out. It got into a very heated argument. I decided to kind of just tear up the place because I was paying for everything for the last six months. He was unemployed. I was taking care of him. I was taking care of all the bills. I was just working so hard at a job that I don't necessarily love. and what was he? Did you have a waiting to exhale moment? You put all his clothes in a pile and burn him?

36:39I did. Oh, you did? I did. You did? I did, yes. I took all the clothes I bought him. I did. Listen to you grown-up people in here. This young woman, you're applauding her, burning up his clothes. I had an incident like this in my 20s. I didn't burn him. I dropped him off at every bus stop in Baltimore. I went from one bus stop. So I know this feeling. Also, it makes me feel so much better. Yeah, yeah. I know this feeling. It means you are out of control. Yeah, I was out of control. The moment you get in the car and you go to look to see where he is, you should be checking yourself in somewhere.

37:20That's what I learned for myself. Yes. That's the moment you should be turning your own self in. Yeah, and I already knew that. So I did. I tore the house up. I took everything I bought him, his clothes. Didn't you put out posters, too? I did. I put out posters with his face on. I made posters. It said...

37:40This is a cheater. Okay, okay. So you burned up the clothes. You put posters out all over the community. You put posters out all over the community. And did you feel any better? While I was doing it, I felt exhilarated. I felt... Especially when I got back into his building and I was, like, right by his door and I was like, and I ran away and I was like in a little ninja blacked out outfit. Yeah, it was exhilarating. It's an addiction. Yeah, now looking back, I don't feel great about my decisions, but also like he destroyed my life and that's a little get back. What you want to say to that, doctor?

38:24Perfect illustration of, you know, revenge seeking and revenge addiction. You couldn't control it. Now, let's hear what were the negative consequences for you of doing all of that? None. None? Okay. So you had zero. I'm being on the Oprah podcast. Yeah. That's very good. I mean, no, I went to the doctor. I'm on anxiety medicine now. I have just riddled with anxiety, just ruminating in how my life got here. And he's still living rent-free in your head, right? Yes. Whoa, James called it.

39:07He was broke, unemployed, and awful. Thank goodness. Yeah, and you will. You're still very young. I've been where you are, holding on to the bumper of a Datsun Z. Okay? I know, it's embarrassing. And holding on to the bumper of a Datsun Z, dropping off the clothes at every different bus stop in Baltimore. And then you realize, And then one day in my 40s, I was in the closet crying for that woman. Wow. Crying for the woman who was so sad and pathetic that you thought you needed that person to make your life full. Yeah. So that is my prayer for you. Thank you. That you get to the point where you are not crying over him.

39:50that you shed happy tears, that you've evolved into the woman that you know you deserve to be and that you have somebody who loves you the way you deserve to be loved and that you are the master of your own fate and the captain of your own soul and you're not depending on somebody else to give that to you. That's what this is here to show you. This isn't even about him. This isn't even about him. This is all about where you are in this moment. But you're going to get there. You will get there. You will get there. You will get there. So, and the question is, can we get you there faster? And one of the ways of doing that, one of the most powerful and direct ways, is to forgive it as fast as you can.

40:37Because to forgive it is to move him out of living inside your head and to leave him in the past and in the dust. And so the question is, is can we speed that process along and make it easier for people? And when you go through all of the five steps of this process, you get that result. You get to experience what I call methadone for a revenge addict, which is you get to really imagine and experience what it's like to do the things you really want to do to him and punish those and then go, is that even that kicking him out of my head? Is that making me feel better? and the truth is you would find if we went through this process it isn't and you would end up 20 what did you say 40 years later yeah still not 40 years I'm sorry I'm sorry yeah well 20, 40, 60 I didn't go to 80 okay good good okay good in my 40s yes yeah in your 40s in my 40s I came to the but he was still there you hadn't you hadn't completed the process oh yeah I had you hadn't moved I'd let him go No, but I read across all the letters I'd written to him and didn't send to him.

41:46So I realized, oh, that was never even about him. That was about where I was. It wasn't about him. It was about me. Thanks for listening. We have to take a break. Up next, maybe like me, you're wondering if the root of all violence we see in the world comes from revenge. What are we to do? James shares the antidote for revenge. He says the good news is it is free and everybody can access it. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing.

42:27It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. I'm back with Yale researcher James Kimmel Jr. If you're learning as much as I am about the science of revenge, you can go ahead and share this link to this episode with somebody you think may be stuck in thoughts of revenge. James writes about a man named Leonard who was suffering from revenge but was able to hit the stop button. What happened, Leonard? My parents moved up from Georgia to New Haven, Connecticut to escape the South.

43:08They were sharecroppers. but they said when the youngest child graduates, they were going to move back. So I was 17 years old, made plans to move back to Georgia. And my oldest sister was dating a man and she said, you know, get your stuff right if you're coming with us. He wasn't taking those steps and he knew that she was going to leave him. So he went to her job. He was high. It harmed my sister. And so it snowed that day. So I went to pick up my mother from work. So when we got back to my house, The police were there. They said, get to the hospital. And so, walking to Yale New Haven Hospital, the surgeon comes out and he says, your sister was stabbed 20 times.

43:47Whoa. So, I don't know if she's going to live or die, but I got to get back in there. And turned around and walked away. You know, I was a good kid. I was in the church and everything. But at that moment, me and my cousins went to the street looking for the guy. And then ultimately, I went back and a police officer, not even then he went to the hospital. He says, Leonard. I said, yes, sir. And he said, your sister's going to live. She has a punctured lung. And I said, whew. So he said, where's the gun? So I just put my head down. And he said, did you use it? I said, no, sir. He said, did you use it?

44:21I said, no, sir. He said, put it on the wheel well of my car up in the garage and walk away. And so I did that. He says, you're a good kid. Don't trade places with him. So unbeknownst to me, after he stabbed my sister, he cut his wrist and laid down next to her. So he was up in the hospital anyway, under police guard, but no one told us anything. And so I risked a lot that day, you know, looking for him, trying to harm people, trying to kill him. He was already in the hospital. But when the police officer said that your sister had lived, though, didn't that change something in your head? It did.

44:57Not only that, that cop was great. He says, if you're so protective of your family, be protective of your mother right now. and go comfort your mother. Number one. But the big thing he said that day was, do you have to kill him today? Wow. Can you wait? And so that gave me a time to deescalate, you know, to calm down and then to comfort my mother. So that's something that I took and something I learned and that I use today, you know, in the work that I do. Really? What is the work that you do? At that time, I did go to college. I worked in the prison. I became chief probation officer, retired after 25 years.

45:38And my specialties are working with violent offenders and youthful offenders. And so I'm a football coach. I'm a foster dad. And I started a nonprofit in 2018, working with violent offenders and working with youth ages 13 to 24, shooters, so-called gang members, and also victims of community violence also. So we have the nonprofit going in New Haven, Connecticut. And have you used that line that the police officer used with you? Do you have to do it today? Absolutely. We respond to the hospital after community violence when, you know, a lot of times, you know, we go to the hospital. The family's down there.

46:13Their friends are down there. Everyone's emotional and they want to get back. And then that coupled with substance abuse, you know, you know, the emotions are heightened. And that's I always use that, you know, I'm going to get them. I'm going to get them. And I said, listen, do you have to do it today? Can you calm down? Can you talk to your friends? Can you go comfort mom, you know, the children, you know, the mother, you know, can you talk to them, you know, right now, comfort them right now. It's not about you. Can you comfort them and just give it a little bit of time? And usually that's how we cut down on a lot of our response.

46:46Wow. You have to do it today. In the book, The Science of Revenge, James writes about. Thank you so much for sharing that story, Leonard. Wow. Wow. In the book, James writes about Scarlett, a mother who lost her precious six-year-old son, Jesse, to gun violence. Jesse was one of the 20 children killed during the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary. And Scarlett is here. Scarlett, I read, you have forgiven the killer. I have. What was that process for you? Well, actually, I was introduced to James by Dan Jewess, who was one of the lead investigators of the Sandy Hook tragedy. I did. But it was amazing.

47:31And yes, I forgave Adam Lanza. He was the former student of Sandy Hook who came back to the same elementary school that he attended and perpetrated the crime. There were several reasons. I mean, I have a strong faith and I grew up understanding that you forgive so you're forgiven. So right off the bat, I was thinking about it. But, you know, I was a single mom. I was the only single mom out of all the parents. And I had a 12-year-old son, Jesse's older brother. So I knew that I was modeling for him how to move through this. And I wanted to do it with strength and grace. You were able to forgive immediately?

48:10I knew that somebody that could do something so heinous must have been in a tremendous amount of pain. They actually, the town brought, one of the trauma specialists brought a mom who had experienced losing her son to violence 20 years prior. And at the time, I thought I was going to die. It was a few days after. And I was in so much pain that I remember looking at my arm thinking, I can't believe there's blood running through it. I just feel like I'm going to vanish. And so I was really interested in this woman that they brought in, she came into the room and I remember thinking, she's 20 years out, I'm going to live.

48:55And that was where I started. And then she started telling me about her life over those 20 years. And it wasn't, it was filled with revenge, anger, hatred towards the person that had caused the harm. And I thought, actually, I said within about five minutes, I put my hand up And I said, thank you so much for coming in and letting me know that I'm going to live. I appreciate it. But in my mind, I thought that is not going to be my life. I want to go on to have joy. And I realized no one's going to bring in a roadmap for me and say, oh, you want joy? Then you have to make a left at gratitude and a right at forgiveness.

49:43You know, that it was going to be my choices from that moment forward that would determine my future. And I could have any future that I wanted. And I wanted joy. So I just started choosing. And forgiveness was the most powerful choice that I made in that moment towards my own personal healing and setting an example for my son. Wow. Unbelievable. You walk at the walk. You're walking the walk. You believe James' work is the breakthrough that we've been waiting for. How so? I absolutely do, because I've dedicated my life now. You know, when your six-year-old son, you find out afterwards, has saved nine of his classmates' lives before losing his own, it is a huge motivator.

50:37Did you tell her that, Dan? Is that what was part of your research? That's what we found out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about that, what Jesse had done. Yes. So Jesse was in the first classroom that Adam Lanza went in. They were still at their seats. They were caught by surprise. And from the information we have that before Jesse was shot, he was able to tell his classmates to run. and nine of his classmates were able to run out of the classroom before they were shot. Two ended up hiding in a bathroom and unfortunately we lost five of them and their two teachers in that classroom. And it sounds like Scarlett had a conversation with Jesse about that earlier that probably led up to that.

51:25What was that conversation? Well, they had had an active shooter drill three weeks before the tragedy. and, you know, being a parent that just, you know, I was had a full time job and I just assumed that when my child was at school, that it was their responsibility. And I remember one evening right before he was shot, he came into the dining room after we'd had dinner and I'm sitting with my mom having a glass of wine. He comes up behind me and he says, mom, what would I do if a school shooter came into the school. And I mean, never thinking that it would ever happen to me, obviously, because those things don't happen to people like me.

52:12I remember sitting there swirling my glass. I looked over my shoulder and I said, run zigzag. You know, I mean, like if I could do it over, I would drop to my knees and I would say, why are you asking that? You know, but I just was so nonchalant, never thinking that that would happen. So, you know, you find something like that out about your son. I immediately quit my job, realizing that I would have to dedicate my life to being part of the solution and started a nonprofit called ChooseLoveMovement.org. I decided looking at the pathway to violence which is what the Department of Homeland Security uses and this isn't just for school shootings it's for all violence it usually almost always starts with a grievance just like James said but what I noticed was that everyone was focusing on the attack end just like we do major issues in our society we focus on the problem and what you focus on grows And so I decided there's a lot of people doing that.

53:23I'm going to take the road less traveled. I'm going to focus on the grievance end. And I'm going to give kids the skills and tools they need to manage that grievance. But here's the interesting thing. I watch and read and study every single school shooting that comes along. And a lot of times, including in Sandy Hook, we don't know what the grievance is. We can't identify the motive. And if you don't know why, how can you fix it? And Dan sent me this clip of James, and it rocked my world because I thought, oh my God, James has solved it. Now we know why, and now we can fix this. Wow, that's right.

54:11Thank you so much, Scarlett.

54:17Belinda. Belinda is a pediatrician and you're here with your husband, Ben. Hello. In your email, you said you're a recovering revenge addict. I'm a recovering revenge addict. Hearing Scarlett's story should help you a little bit, right? Yeah. Everybody's story, actually. Yeah. I think growing up in a culture where you were told not to speak as a child and you were disciplined and you were shamed if you did wrong, but not praised when you did well. and then I was bullied all my life. But I became like an overachiever to overcome that. But I scored a 60 on your quiz. So I think I have a lot of work to do.

55:00And I find when I get shamed or bullied or whatever or wrong that it starts here in the chest and it goes like to my head. and I have to kind of like breathe and whatever, take a hold of myself. Well, I'll take you back almost a year ago. My husband and I were celebrating our 26th wedding anniversary up in Lake George and I bent over to pick something up and I felt this like as if a fire hydrant opened up in my chest and shot in my head. and as a physician I knew I was having a ruptured brain aneurysm at that moment and so I told Ben please bring me to the emergency room I started vomiting profusely and I told him once we were five minutes away that I don't know how long I'm gonna stay lucid so you have to make sure they scan me tell them I'm having the worst headache of my life tell you cannot leave me in a corner somewhere because I don't know how much longer I have and luckily they got me into the CT scan.

56:08They transported me to my alma mater, Albany Med. I stayed there for almost three weeks in the ICU, three brain surgeries later and I'm a living miracle, honestly. But I attribute a lot of that to the fight or flight, the stress, the rage, everything that is in my mind when I feel something's not going right or somebody wronged me. You feel like somebody wronged you. Somebody wronged me. I mean, it's not only that, but it has a lot to do with that. So were you wronged as a child? Did something terrible happen to you? Nothing terrible. Just very, you know, being a firstborn Asian girl in a family, I was basically a third parent, but an invisible third parent.

56:56And there was a lot of pressure put on me. I do a lot of work with women that are from my culture, and I see this a lot, which is another reason I was going to ask. This is culturally related because there's a lot of women that harbor this kind of rage and anger. But it's pent up from years of, you know, strict discipline, high standards, and really just not being able to speak your mind, I think. You've been repressed. Exactly. all these years. You've been repressed. Ben, you're shaking your head because you have to deal with that. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just heartbreaking because I see the blood boiling up inside her.

57:47Sometimes it's directed at me. Yeah. And most of the time deserved. But whenever it is, whether it's her family or friends or anyone that may have wronged her, I do think that I notice a big difference now post lifequake as we call it yeah you know I see her catching herself and and making the choices in those moments to not to steer left instead of right and and try to avoid that blood boiling and I'm so proud of her for that because I think that she recognizes that that's about her health at this point yeah yeah I I don't want to see my family go through what they went through those past three weeks in the ICU with my sons, our sons at my side.

58:34And I just, my health just means so much more than that boy. But you realize you are a revenge addict. Oh, yes. You realize, you see yourself in his book. Yes. Much more in my 20s and my 30s. But now, like, especially after this life quake, I'm like, it's not worth it. It's just not worth it. It's not worth it for any of us, is what you're saying in the science of revenge no it's it's not um as i as as i say we know from studies that revenge is the primary motivation for not only all forms of human violence but also for all forms of non-violent forms of revenge that that afflict us you know you're not a violent person but you're seeking non-violent revenge right on a regular or maybe you are and and i I didn't pick that up.

59:22I try not to be. I try not to be. And that's good. But we do engage in other forms of revenge-seeking that are not violent and that are almost as destructive of families, communities, schools, workplaces, workplace sabotage. in schools we have you know teacher student and student student battles and and bullying that is almost as uh hurtful as physical violence or is the psychological harm that we inflict on each other and all of this is motivated you have to go to why do you want to hurt other people it's not the grievance when you know when we go to uh ask the police what was the motive behind the shooting Often the answer is we don't know yet.

1:00:07If there is an answer, the answer is the result of a search to identify the grievance. That's not the motive. People hate other people and people feel injured in all sorts of ways and most of them don't act violently. So clearly the grievance isn't the motive. The motive is what the grievance does inside your brain to activate this desire to retaliate. And that we don't have our police looking at. And quite correctly, and we don't need them to. We know what the motive is in almost every violent act. When you see it on TV in the news tonight or tomorrow and you see an act of violence and you go, and you see the reporter go, what was the motive?

1:00:45Do you have a motive yet? You can just answer. Scream back at the TV and go, it's revenge. It's almost always revenge. The desire for revenge that's been activated by the grievance. If we focus on the desire for revenge and look at that as an addictive process, we can use all of the addiction strategies that we've developed for the last 20 or 30 years. It's not just the grievance. It's not just the grievance. It's not the grievance at all. That's just the activating event. It's the switch that turns it on. Right. There are as many grievances in the world as there are people times the number of things you can imagine are grievances times the number of things that might be actual grievances and then times the number of seconds in a day.

1:01:22In other words, almost infinity. Okay. Wow. So it's not the grievance, it's the thing that activates. It's the one thing that grievances activate, which is it that is what activates the brain biological revenge what i'll call the revenge circuitry which just happens to be the addiction circuitry and when we know that some people and not all people that's correct it's some people and not all people all people almost all people want revenge yes only about 20 ish as i was saying are people who can't control the urge and end up seeking revenge in ways that harm themselves or other people that's when it becomes a disease.

1:01:58Revenge seeking itself, not a disease. Everybody wants revenge. It's like, think of it this way. Everybody gets high on opioids and everybody can get intoxicated from alcohol. That's 100%. But only a small percentage of people become alcoholics or drug addicts. Yeah. Yeah. But if you're looking in your lives for a living miracle, it's sitting right here. It's right in front of you. Scarlett. Right here. Scarlett. That's a miracle. I don't know how you did that, Scarlett. And here. I mean, we're seeing the power of forgiveness to actually heal the most significant wound that any human being could experience.

1:02:38Leonard, you forgave the guy?

1:02:43He just said you were looking at a miracle. That's you. Did you forgive the guy? It took some time. So I actually went to the jail to see him. Yeah. So I could get answers because they were talking around me. No one would give me answers. And my family turned on me. They said, you got your answer. Don't forgive him. Don't feel sorry for him. I don't feel sorry. I want answers. And then ultimately, I went to college and came home, and I saw him. And I cut him off on the sidewalk. I drove up on the sidewalk. I got out of the car, and I was just, I didn't know what to do. But I think if I could have talked to him, I would have been more prepared.

1:03:18But I didn't react. He profusely apologized. She said, I didn't mean to hurt you, your family. I'm sorry I was high. I was feeling that loss that I was going to lose her. And then he was already punished, but he did occupy space in my head my entire undergrad in college. And that's the part that, you know, that I didn't even forgive myself for, you know. Yes. That you let him take up so much space in your head. I let him take up so much space. But I did read the book. We did do some work together, and I do utilize the practices of, the non-justice approach. Absolutely. Well, you have given us, sir, a lot to think about here today.

1:03:59Really. There's much more fascinating ground covered in the book that we couldn't get to today. James Kimmel Jr.'s book is called The Science of Revenge, Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction and How to Overcome It. It's available wherever books are sold. Thank you all for being so candid. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know this conversation has given you a new way of thinking about revenge. And thank you, audience and listeners. Thank you for your valuable time. So let's meet up again next week. Go well, everybody. Go well. Thank you.

1:04:42You can subscribe to The Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.