Carrick’s Future, City Debate Erupts & Could Bruno Leave United? | The Overlap Fan Debate

0:01This is a Global and the Overlap production.

0:30We're taking things even further with our annual 31 Days of Horror event. For 31 days, we're releasing two stories a day, every day, in the run-up to Halloween. That's 31 chances to find something that gets under your skin and refuses to leave. This is creepy. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com I think we're all pretty certain Michael Carrick's going to lose his job. Who would you want as the next manager? They were saying, bring Carrick in. I'll take the gig. I would take you down. And I feel like when Jamie's sat there and he says, Luke, you watched City win these cups.

1:18Is it tainted? No, it's not. It is. How can you not accept that? From my perspective, it's not. If you had any prayed about it, you would feel a bit like, you'd be gutted, like. You can't lose that home against birds like that. It's unacceptable. Said Liverpool want a right-back. Would you take Trent back in January? He's going back to your ex, basically, is what it is. Any experience of that, Luke? No comment. It's going to be another decade, at least, until United are anywhere near the top for the damage that is on the club. Everyone was desperate for us to go down last year. And I think that's why a lot of Spurs fans are coming in with their sort of chest puffs out, because we've had it from absolutely everyone.

1:51So we turned off the situation where the two Manchester clubs could get relegated in the same season. I think I'd take it now. We wouldn't come back up.

2:03Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. I'm pleased to welcome Seamus Coleman onto the sofa for his debut on the Fan Debate, and as well as our loyal fans. So Seamus, I'll start with you. Obviously left Everton in the summer. You were sort of maybe looking for a club. Where are we at with that right now? Yeah, no, I was. I had the kind of hope and ambition of maybe possibly playing on. And the longer I've been off, the more I've been around the family and living back home for Halloween break with the kids and stuff like that, the more content I am with what I'm doing at the minute.

2:42So is this an exclusive then? It's official? I don't want to completely draw a line in the sand. As I said, I've been keeping fit. But it's edging towards that way and happily as well. How would an individual player keep fit? How would you go about that? It's hard. It's hard. But I've just... Do you know what? More so for many reasons, mentally, physically, just to keep taking over. I enjoy training. But yeah, you're not with the ball and that. But regarding what's next, I've enjoyed family time. I'm doing this now. I'm seeing to enjoy it, see how it goes. And yeah, just an open book at the minute.

3:20So all those pundits you used to give sticks. Yeah, yeah. You've crossed the fence, you've crossed the line. I know, yeah. As I said, if people said a year and a half ago, I'll be sitting next to you and my ex-teammates and that, they'll be going, oh, you turncoat, but you're listening. We all make that change. So, right, let's get into it. Only one place to start. Harrison, Manchester United, winless in eight across all competitions. What? We have to start with this one. Do you expect Michael Carrick to go? Yeah, I think... I'll go on to speak about it, obviously, because everyone does, but I think coaching-wise, you take all the ownership, I think it's been a cock-up of a season, really, so far.

4:10Bournemouth game kind of encapsulated everything. Put Mount out wide, he still plays too high off the ball, there's just nothing in the centre. so ball speed's slow. Yeah, I just can't control the game. Just weak, really weak, and to be fair, it's not... I've seen people obviously going like, oh, we didn't want him in the summer. People just, you know, wanted him to do the interim, get rid of him, and then people are going, oh, he got sacked at Borough for the same thing. And we don't play anything like Middlesbrough did under him. We can't control games, we don't build out, we don't press, and when we do press, it's almost just...

4:45I use the term under, out of slot, high block. They don't press, they just block very high. Gaps everywhere. I was saying to Luke before, we've played Bournemouth and Como, lost on aggregate 7-1. In the time that we were poster Alex Ferguson, them clubs were so far down in the leagues, Como probably Series C. And we're going like that and they're going like that. It just shows how it's changed so quickly. You do a brilliant job on the overlap. Not just Manchester United, about lots of teams, how they set up tactically, how they go about things, and you're talking about Carrick's Middlesbrough.

5:22What's the big difference between Carrick's Manchester United of last season and what we're seeing this season?

5:30Is it a different idea? No, it is. You know, you watch them probably more than anybody. So, I think last season we had a lot of joy because we could counter-attack, and I think with the conditioning, I'll give credit to Amerim, we were really dogged under Amerim when we wanted to be, especially at Anfield away games like that, we ran really well. And I think when he'd come in, he kind of reduced training session time and then basically built on this counter-attacking model, which the game against City was perfect. It's what Villa did against them at the weekend. It's two banks of four, wingers narrow, block out of centre, and then just use these runs in behind.

6:04But now I think he tried to take the step forward this year, and I think he wanted to start playing, start defending on the halfway line and push on, but it's not man-to-man. and I just think we're really poor mobility-wise. I'm not just talking big lads who can win tackles and headers. Just running, just the running and just the basics. It's really worrying. I think the same back four that couldn't press under, Ten Hag, Amorim, it's the same back four that are still playing now. And then you go on to the owners and you go on to what they've done. We played Bournemouth with Dallow, a right-back at left-back, a centre-half at right-back, a 20-year-old centre-half from Arsenal, who we pinched from their youth team, Maguire, who got given the armband after it having stripped, the captain dropped, a right-winger up front, a midfielder at left-wing.

6:54It's like, what has happened? And it's just, it's such a mess. And I think the fact that the people in charge who have done all of that stuff, who have appointed the manager, who have bought the players, who have set up a model, They said they weren't going to jump from Guardiola to Conte, to Mourinho style when they come in. They've gone one worse. They've gone three-back, four-back, and they're looking at two managers who are probably going to play three-back. Conte, Nagelsmann. So I just don't get what their plan is. And the fact that them people are going to have the... They're going to have the power to make the next big decision in Man United's history.

7:30It's a joke and it's... I agree with what you're saying in terms of it's a mess on the pitch. You've got a few injuries at the moment, but I saw something this morning. I still think Manchester United should beat Bournemouth at home. And not even Bournemouth, who finished sixth last season. This was a Bournemouth team who were 16th going into the game. So your team, I think your first 11 was up about 450 million. Theirs was about 150 million. So there was still a big difference on the pitch. And Man United still win that game. Were we looking at a broken football club yesterday in terms of the players, your captain being on the bench?

8:05and there was no way in the world Michael Carrick was ever bringing him on no matter what would have happened in that game, he was never coming on. I mean, it's been up and down for Man United. It's been worse than that, shall we say. But that to me felt almost as bad as it's been at different times because of that complete nothing on the pitch. Fernandes is sitting there on the bench, a best player. PFA player of the year last year. Michael Carrick really probably not at the level Manchester United need in the dugout and losing sort of 3-0. It could have been 5 or 6. Yeah, it was a really bad day.

8:41Scenes in the stands, not nice. Banners getting taken off fans, trying to protest, trying to put up banners as standards. It's ugly at Streatford end after the game. Yeah, it's just an absolute mess. I think it's the worst it's ever been. And I think I've said that probably about 100 times in the last three years. It could have all been true, though, genuinely. Yeah, no, it could have, yeah. I just think it actually does keep getting worse. And the problem is now, there's actually no hope. Like, there's nothing. Do you think Bruno was right with his comments? No. No, no. Well, I thought what he said was right.

9:14Like, it's their decision. He was questioning the manager's tactics of not going man-to-man against Como. We've not gone man-to-man all season. So I don't know what... Have you got the players to go man-to-man? So that's where I defend Carrick. He's got Maguire, Martinez, right-back, left-back. Like, if we're going to go man-to-man, you're going to expect Martinez and Maguire to push onto Nico Paz, who's getting it off centre-halves. He's not going to do that. And it's just really... And to be honest, Amorim wanted to go man-to-man. And we did that at times. And we were still pretty poor. And the squad's the same.

9:49So I don't know what more that would have got us. And even Carrick said after the game, we went man-to-man for the third goal when we were pushing in. We conceded by going man-to-man. Their centre-half ran off our striker, won it in our own box for a third goal. So I don't know what he's on about in terms of it's their decision not to go man-to-man. We cannot go man-to-man. I think we're all pretty certain Michael Carrick's going to lose his job this week at some stage, unfortunately for him. Who would you want as the next manager? Pick your boys in, innit? He was trying to campaign for himself before.

10:24I was saying, bring Carrick in. I'll take the gig. I wouldn't take you down. A couple of these managers fucking might as well. Get Gene, Evan. Honestly. The sensible one that they're going to look at is Eddie Howe. But I just don't think... I think he's a great coach. Genuinely, I do think he's a great coach. I think he's pretty underappreciated. But that's a manager who comes through the door and automatically the fans are having him. What about Deitch? Fuck off. Sorry, I'm just... No. I think Eddie Howe's an appointment. I'm a massive fan of Eddie Howe. He's the next England manager and he's the best English coach out there.

11:07I think, is he this big, glamour name? No. And would he be the guy who could get Manchester United back to winning the title? The European Cubs, most people would say no. But where United are right now, you need somebody who knows the Premier League, really. Because I'm not saying you're going to get relegated, but there's a good chance you're going to be in the bottom three by the time we get to an international break because of the fixtures you've had. And I think a point to make as well about how bad a start this has been for United, you've had an easy start on paper. You've played two promoted teams, you've played one of the big boys, only one of them, but that was at home.

11:38You've played Fulham or bottom of the league. City and Tottenham or bottom of the league. Yeah, exactly. There's tough fixtures to come. You've got Chelsea, Villa, Liverpool, might be your next three league games. Roma, Sporting, in between that, Champions League yeah so it's not going to get any easier so I think you'd almost need a manager who knows the Premier League right now but this is just a point because I have waxed lyrical about Eddie Howe when he was at Newcastle I'd love him as the England manager and when I said yesterday on Sky probably Eddie Howe right now I thought if Liverpool were looking for a manager I wouldn't want Eddie Howe I think I'd want Eddie Howe but I wouldn't want Jason Tindall on the side of the pitch on the Amazon dock I know Jesus Christ.

12:22I don't know the guy. They might work together brilliantly, but they obviously do. They've got a great combination. Eddie Howe's a sensible, respected guy. He loves him. He has him as part of his team. But I don't think as a Liverpool supporter, I'd want him to run up and down a touchdown. I don't think Man United supporters would either. No, I wouldn't. To be honest, it wouldn't probably be my pick. I think that's who they'll go and get. Who would you go for then? Best coach? You've got it. I think it's different because of where United are right now I don't think it's a case of let's go and get the best man for the job who's going to win us the league it's the situation right now just outside the relegation zone I mean only a year over a year ago you finished 15th yeah I'm not really in relegation art genuinely I'm not we were saying before that the three promoted teams are actually picking up points you know Spurs went above us when they won at Stamford Bridge Sunderland I think just obviously drew against So we turn what a situation may have the two Manchester clubs could get relegated in the same season.

13:23I think I'd take it now. We won't come back up.

13:29We won't come back up, I don't think. Genuinely. It's a long, long down London Stadium. What's the closest we've ever had to if United went down? I think it's Leeds about 20 years ago. No one there. No, but the closest to it is that. I'm not saying it's the same, I'm saying that's the closest you've had. We won't go down, but I think they could have a car crash appointment there. Because I think if they do get Conte or Nagelsmann, I think that could blow up. Like, a genuine... What would you do? Who do you want as a Manchester United fan? Would Antonotti not leave Brazil? Nah, not at any. Just laughed off our last guest on here as well.

14:02Deitch. When Deitch was on, you just laughed about him. You weren't here, stay out of it. I was here for that one. I'd probably get Eddie Al, genuinely. But it's the most... It's uninspiring, but it's got a better floor than the other coaches. So the worst we could be under Eddie Howe is better than the worst we would be under Conte and Nagelsmann. Nagelsmann and Conte would probably rip this club up. And Nagelsmann's had so many fallings out, even a Germany national team, Bayern Munich. I think it was Neuer, Dennis Undav. The German press when he was coaching for Germany absolutely tore him to pieces.

14:39I think he was pulling people out of international retirement and stuff and doing all sorts with a squad. That would blow up, bearing in mind that he doesn't even know what he wants to do himself, Nagelsmann. He's changed four-back, three-back, no-wingers, wingers. He's done so many different things. And Conte almost feels like it's that bizarre of an appointment for United at work. But wouldn't he be able to, because you need a coach who can carry the name, maybe? That's what I think, yeah. Because with Conte, I just feel like it's... I just think we've got to be careful. I know, because it would blow up.

15:13I like... what's happening now you see it with support because you're so angry with the players you want this manager to come in and just hammer the players and run them and work them but listen Conte is an amazing manager I just think Manchester United being down that three at the back thing and I'm still trying to get my edge around you saying three back instead of three at the back oh sorry I got a rinse for saying that I said sorry for interrupting I said something yesterday and you're a United fan you know this better than me what I can't get my head around at United is Liverpool and United are the two most successful clubs in this country but United has been about two managers these two figures you know two of the greatest men in English football or you know most famous most successful and nobody else can get it right as a manager whereas Liverpool have had lots of managers who've probably won things you know leagues or European Cups but it just makes me feel United must be so hard to manage and run because we all sit here and it's easy for us to say the director of football doesn't know what he's doing the owner doesn't know what he's doing they're not all thick they're not all you know it hasn't gone well for them but they're obviously competent people to get that role in the first place but I'm not talking about just right now I'm talking about after Samat Busby all the managers who came then who were really successful at their own clubs smaller clubs Dave Sexton goes from QPR to Man United all these appointments Ron Atkinson.

16:44Why can nobody get it right? Because the club almost feels that big. You don't just need a great manager. You almost need this figure. Like this giant of a man. Yeah. I think we had Ange, didn't we, on Sticks Football? And we were talking, he said it's going to take a special type of character, not manager, an actual person who can do everything. And there's not any of that available. I will say, we're not still talking about the United DNA. I think everyone's packed that up. I do think United is a club who has the same wants to play football as Liverpool. Front-footed, high-pressing, aggressive, German football, if you like.

17:20And I think if you do them bits of it, I think you'll automatically get buy-in. The worst thing Manchester United can do is appoint a manager who kills and sucks the life out of the game in the stands. Because that's why I think Carrick's just... No-one's arsed about Carrick getting attacked. No-one's arsed. Everyone's just going, sorry, mate. but that's because with Amorim it was so fiery so furious so like but then when it goes the other way it kicks off with Carrick it's just this and I feel like at United you've got to have we're talking about Manchester United you've got to have like fire in your belly you've got to press from the front you can't go pound for pound punch for punch with Bournemouth at home Are you on 12 managers in 13 years?

18:01Yeah I think I did it before I think Shaw's had 8 managers 9 managers That's absolutely mad isn't it? And didn't Wilcox not want Eddie Howe previously? Oh, yeah, I've never talked about that. So they got rid of Dan Ashworth because he wanted English managers like Eddie Howe and Southgate. But then they got rid of him, Jason Wilcox, who'd been in the job for four months as technical director, then stepped into his shoes, made the decision to keep Tenag, made the decision to point Amarin, made the decision to get Carrick into him, made the decision to get him on a permanent basis, has signed all the players within that.

18:36that's including selling all of our wingers buying wing backs for a wing back system and he's about to make the next appointment that is utterly bizarre you mentioned Jason Wilcox I don't know particularly well but there was chatting about him last night in the stand is it at the stage I know we've got the Glazer issue but is it at the stage where you actually want any oss out now yeah I did a shameless I did a piece on United's owners and the win rate since they've come in is like 36%. We're talking about Amorim's win rate, Tenag's win rate, who's had the best post-Furga. Look at their win rate.

19:14It's on the floor. It's shocking. And it's just like, I don't get... Carrick makes a bad decision against Bournemouth. He puts Mount on the wing. He gets sacked. We go Como, he gets it wrong in the press. He gets sacked. Their decisions that he's making and therefore he's going to be removed from his duties because he's not doing a good enough job. The people who have appointed him have made cock-up after cock-up I couldn't tell you one thing, and I'm being honest, I could not tell you one decision they've got right. I'm talking players, Telemans, immobile midfield. We buy Telemans, Carrick has to pay him number 10 instead of in the two, because he can't run.

19:50They get Balaba last minute after signing two younger midfielders. Season before that, they get Patrick Dargu, the most obvious wing-back you've ever seen. It's just sell all the wingers, get Cunha, get Ibumo, right tens, nice, narrow inside players. then we're going to go to Carrick, who wants the ball, who wants width. Just a little point. That's why you shouldn't have a manager who plays three at the back. The problem is you then buy players for that system and 90 % of football managers play 4-2 or 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. So the next manager you're going to bring in, the chances of them playing three at the back are not there.

20:26So you end up with a squad that's just not fit for purpose. I understand three at the back a lot more with teams mid-of-the-table where they're not thinking of five-year plans, they're just thinking about staying in the Premier League. We'll sort of just keep going each year. I just want to ask you a question on Bruno Fernandes. Yeah. Would you sell him at the end of the season? His contract's up at the end of the season, isn't it? Yeah. He might go in January. He might go in January. Depending on who they get, he genuinely could go in January. I think the comments... He's never thrown a manager under the bus.

20:53Never. I remember Oli got sacked at Watford, and he was doing all that to the players. You know, it's on us, it's on us. Never complained under Amarim. Even when he was moved position. Didn't do the same with Ten Hag. And he wrote a letter to the fans before the FA Cup. It sounds to me like you've got a little bit of sympathy for him. I understand it. No, I don't. What I'm doing by that is, I think he only said that about Carrick because he got brought off. Yeah. Really. I don't think there's any way in the world he gives that interview. I think he thinks he's tried to embarrass me, bringing me off there.

21:24I'm the best player. Look at the players I'm playing and you've brought me off. Yeah. I think that's the only way. Listen, he frustrates me watching him. But he's an unbelievable player, talented footballer. and I don't think his United career will be remembered just for that one interview. As you said, the other managers probably stuck with them a little bit there. I think he could go in January, I really do. Well, he's not signing, he's halting on his contract. Do you think he had that in mind before he does this interview, if he's completely out of character? He's out of character, and he's not done an interview this season that I can remember either.

22:04and he's the captain of the club. So he's clearly gone to do the interview. So he's clearly done it to make a point. I think the problem is with him now is that, like what you were saying, he's obviously got PFA Player of the Year under his belt and this, that. And I do have a bit of sympathy because if Carrick didn't come in last season, Bruno wouldn't have won PFA Player of the Year. That's what I said. Yeah, and I think that's a really bad luck on Bruno because we're talking about a manager who's kind of arm around her shoulder, elevated you to do that. your legacy cemented in the Premier League because of him.

22:34You could have finished your United career with Carabao Cup, FA Cup, whatever, and nothing really to put on the mantelpiece. So I just think it's, I'm questioning all. If a manager's league, this is how you know Herzl's a good manager, because he turned down United. Emery the same, he'll turn down United if we do approach him. I'd get both of them in, I think the quality. But the fact that they've turned down United shows how intelligent they are. Because I question people's sanity when they actually come into the job. I question you look at that and they always go you could be the manager to return United back to the no you're not you're never going to be it's not going to be it's going to be another decade at least until United are anywhere near the top for the damage that is on the club but yeah I just question any player that gets linked with us who's open to it I just go fucking hell alright this is the thing sorry Seamus can I ask you as a captain captain of Everton during difficult times what do you think when you see not just Bruno Fernandes, but other players at other clubs come out and sort of publicly question the club, the manager, the staff?

23:39How do you feel as a leader in the dressing room? I think it's a difficult one. Rightly or wrongly, it's not something that I would have done. I think as well, to do it, me personally, I nearly need to be squeaky clean in my performances. I need to make sure I'm playing well. I could never play a bad game and then kind of come out and blame someone else for it. But I think Martinez kind of had a go, didn't he, a couple of days before. There's frustration with the fans about the owners, and I know maybe you didn't agree with it or whatever, but I can see, right, well, he's kind of backed Haric up a little bit in that interview where he was like the players, whatever.

24:19But I don't know, I think a player going straight for the manager after a game, I just wouldn't do it. Whether I think it or not, I just think it looks awful. and I think it's a cop-out, really. I said yesterday... Sorry, have you ever seen a player who's undroppable? There's so much drama around Bruno Fernandes not playing a game of football. Why? Every club drops players. I remember Foden won PFA Player of the Year. He barely played the season after. He's on the bench. Still won a league next season, whatever. But Kyle Saka, he's on the bench sometimes. Yeah, but Bruno's captain. Yeah, but I know the captain stuff, but still.

24:54We've got Harry Maguire. He was captain of United for five years before Bruno was given it. But H, can you not say, like, again, these are good players in their own right, but the Mount Rushmore of Manchester United failure over the last, what, six or seven years? Luke Shaw, Harry Maguire, Diego Adalo, Bruno Fernandes. You talk about the hierarchy's changed, the ownership's changed, the players have changed. Those four, the core of Manchester United, they've been there, people were part of the leadership group. If Mount Rushmore had five faces, I'd put Martinez on there as well. So there's surely got to be a change when it comes to those players.

25:24And when it comes to Man United, it's, oh, we're going to trigger the extension for Harry Maguire. Oh, Ten Hag won the FA Cup, we all stay on. It's always reactive as opposed to proactive, actually. Like, we've seen top teams get rid of players. Coutinho was the top player for Liverpool. They got rid of him. There's a fear of going into the unknown and seeing what life is like without some of these players that have, what, been the faces of Manchester United failure over the last five or six years. Why are Main like the most reactive football club? Why don't they do things on the front foot? Michael Carrick should have gone off the coma.

25:51Like, and there was no need for him to manage the Bournemouth game. There was no need for it at all. It's a great point about Maguire and Luke Shaw. They both said in pre-season, after we'd signed the three midfielders, so no one else was coming in, they both said we need more players in the starting XI. And they both knew that their positions were under consideration. If we bought a fourth player in that window, it would have been a defender, a left-back or a centre-back. So them two both saying that we need bolstered starting XI would have meant that they truly knew that they weren't good enough at that point.

26:23Maguire Maguire right should not be playing for Manchester United it's nothing to do with Maguire he's been he's been really good but he is not the player who he was three four years ago he's so stiff now Luke Shaw the same the fact that them two players are still playing for Manchester United I don't I don't have any blame towards them I have blame towards everyone else who's making the decisions to keep them there Dalloy's played 250 games for Manchester United yeah has he yeah it doesn't make giving that shirt it's difficult that as well though because that's like that's not Dallow's fault and like when I watch I'm not saying he's a maze running but I'd say if you maybe got his running stats I think he tries he's on it so it's not as well and look he's played Bournemouth yesterday and Bournemouth lost Kirchges to Liverpool but they've just had someone ready and deferred to come in and it's like Man United and even us to a degree there's no like if you take someone out that Brighton probably have someone that looks like Man United they're looking for your replacement mate Yeah, that's a fact.

27:24It's an absolutely fact. No, it's one of them. It's just what I was saying before. It's like, our backup left-back is a right-back. And I know I read your column on The Telegraph where it was talking about Manchester City don't have a backup number nine, stuff like that. That's fine if it's one, two positions. Manchester United don't have a fit centre-forward, a fit left-winger, or a left-winger anyway. Like, we've not even got anything. The centre-halves, you're one centre-half injury away from throwing 20-year-old Aidan Heaven who didn't make a senior appearance for Arsenal. And even when we went to Atletico Madrid away, he's playing left-back.

27:58He's absolutely mind-boggling. De Litt, Sesko, they've been out for ages, ages. A shin injury. Have you ever seen anyone lose eight months of football, nine months of football? A shin injury. De Litt's got a back injury. He's not played in over a year for United. These are all investments that Ineos have made. De Litt had a patchy record when he was bought from an injury standpoint. So this is, it's not like these things were like rocket science and it just appeared out of the blue. These are actual sporting decisions that they're making. Harrison, last question. Would you take relegation if it meant the owners went?

28:34Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah. I would, yeah, yeah. I asked him if he would take you becoming the manager. Oh, yeah. He said, yeah. It does feel like they're taking the piss out of you, doesn't it? I mean, you've had all of this going on. You just spoke really well about all of those problems at your club. And then they're going, anyway, this new stadium. Oh, yeah, that'll solve it. That'll solve it. Get more stadium. No, it was... I was having a conversation, you just said it then, about the stadium. The sacking of the dinner ladies, remember all that? But they'll pay Dan Ashworth eight mil to sack him after four months.

29:11Like, what are we doing? No, it's mind-boggling to me how... I know managers, I know people can appoint managers and they can get it wrong and then they can change identity. You did it with slot a bit slower. But there's always a pathway. There's always a pathway. Under Arna's slot, you had players who were fit for a style to go in the other direction. So Boz is like a perfect example of players like that. We don't have any player that's suited to any style of football because we don't know what the player's good at or what the style is. So it's... Yeah, fuck it, get concert.

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31:35Football's changed. But the passion, drama, and moments that make us all love the game, they're still here. The game's back. This is the Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. We are joined by our two fans, Kwaku and Baz, and Kieran, who's on the overlap more than me at the moment. So, Kieran, come on. Right, so the first one we've got here is small shin pads. Oh. Gone. Games gone. Yeah, it just looks stupid. It looks silly. It doesn't do anything. You might as well not be wearing shin pads. They're literally doing it just because they've got to wear shin pads. They're like a credit card. Justin.

32:13They don't wear the soft spot. One of Jamie's tackles, it'd be over, wouldn't it? Leg would be gone. Be leg gone, not game gone. So, defo game gone. So, game gone. Eh. Come on. Yeah, game's gone. I mean, yeah. Yeah. It is, isn't it? It's just a token gesture, isn't it? So, we're going to go game's gone. How low are we on it? It's always the attacking play. It's always like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. They look cool with them, though, don't they? But it's like... All of them. He's just not playing, is he? Yeah. What about centre-backs wearing them? because Bournemouth had both of theirs, didn't he? Oh, the fella at Real Madrid.

32:41Boison is gone and Zabani, they both had them. Zabani, yeah. Can't be having that as a centre. They're using some players then. No, they're both good, but them pads, game's gone. Well, one of them's had Paddy Sands. You've had one at Real Madrid, so you must be doing something. Go on. Football shirts with a collar. Oh, yeah, that's games back. Like, for sure, that's proper. That's heritage. But see, I think the whole one looks like a rugby top. But isn't that just the design, though? Isn't that just that? That's what's got nothing on it, but no, that's proper. Would you rather, I mean, I'm not totally against it, but would you rather your kids had a collar or not?

33:16Probably not, but I don't hate it when it's on the kit. Yeah, I'm probably a bit glad. Yeah, I'm in there. I'm in there. I'm thinking Canson, I've lifted the collar up and that. Yeah. So what are we going with? It's got to go in the middle. In the middle. Like, around here? Yeah. Yeah, I got it. Yeah, that's what I like to do. What would you think, Kieran? I'm sort of like you but it's got to look right I don't even like I think Sunderland have a collar at the minute I don't like that kit either Yeah No I'd be more games gone really Come on Keanu what have we got next? Goalkeepers taking a penalty What?

33:52In shootouts or just I think it's in general I don't know what this relates to there must have been a goalkeeper No I think that's games gone because you've got ten outfield players who've got to step up. The goalkeeper's taking a penalty shouldn't happen. That's the worst foot we're on the pitch. Yeah, but it is theatre. It is funny, isn't it? Is it not good for the game? You probably don't want your own keeper doing it, but you almost want to watch someone else's keeper doing it. I've seen my keeper miss a penalty in the shootout. No, I'm not having it. Your keeper can't even catch it. Get off to that later on.

34:25I'll pick the top one for England. The left foot. Yeah, and Everton's penalties are terrible. So I have a mind pick. Who can remember the best penalty ever by a goalkeeper. Left foot. Subjective, surely. Who? Subjective, isn't it, the best penalty ever? No, this is undoubtedly in English football. I'm certain the goalkeeper played for Sheffield Wednesday, and I'm certain the game was at Wolves. Pressman? Yeah. Kevin Pressman? It's the best penalty I've ever seen in your life. Left foot, top corner. So what are we saying? I don't know. I don't think it's games gone. I don't think it's games gone.

35:05What if they're the best penalty taker you've got? Come on. It's if you miss it, you're in trouble. If your goal gives you the best penalty taker, you've got a problem. That's a problem for that team. For everyone else watching, I think it's probably exciting, isn't it? I think it could be in the middle. Middle. Go in the middle. Yeah, go in. Just underneath. Just underneath? By half time into the...

35:31Novelty inflatables At a football match Oh that's full I mean that's your call I'm not having it for a second Don't you like the bananas? I don't hate the bananas I don't hate them I don't think it's alright But who else is I can only think of City Oh loads have done it in the past I've never seen the fish and all that Grimsby remember them They fake up to yourself To blow up fish and things like that There has been years I don't know if they're bringing it back but I don't want Everton going in with... Mind you, we can do it then. Probably they can charge you for it at the moment, but inflatable toffee...

36:06Game's gone. I quite like it. Do you like it? I don't hate it. Go on, you can be the captain. You can have it. Somewhere in the middle, just... We're sitting on the fence today. Everything seems to be going in the middle here. Right, last one. Fans heading the ball in the stand. Oh, yeah. Game's so bad. That's what you dream of. Sitting in the stands and just getting your head on it. That can't be Games Gone. That's gone on forever. Only the ones who edited it years ago have neglected it ever since. Even the fans. Fans will be claiming that. Yeah, they'll be going for everything. It was the inflatable one, you ruined it.

36:44That was starting. OK. We had that on the Daily the other day. Dunk was not a fan. Was he not having it? You do surprise me, Darren. That Duncan didn't like it. All right, that's it for today's segment of Games Gone. Games back. See you next time.

37:05Right, Luke. Great to have you back, mate. Really good. We've missed you on the Fandy, but you went missing, didn't you, at the time that we wanted you? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I went missing, but... We've already recorded that break, haven't we? Well, I mean, where's your exotic place abroad? Nice trip to Lithuania. I get the booking details from Mayout if anyone wants to see him. But, yeah, we fancy talking about some football, cos that was brilliant, that Mayout. Oh, sorry, mate. Yeah, yeah. OK, you said in April 2025... Here we are. ..if we are found guilty, we will hold our hands up.

37:41Do you think Manchester City are holding their hands up? I mean, I'll ask the question, since when did I speak for Manchester City? You do it every two weeks, aren't you? I'm a fan, I'm not a club representative, am I? You do stuff at the club, don't you? I've done one or two freelance. I don't work for the club at all. I have my own views, as everyone knows. And they're always pro Man City. And yours aren't pro Liverpool? No, I'm not claiming I don't love the club and support the club. That's why I love and support the club. Why don't you just hold your hands up? I just did, mate, you didn't see.

38:12If you look carefully enough. Yeah, I mean, from what I've seen, it's not looking good, but like I said... It's not looking good, Jesus Christ. It's a bit worse than that. Yeah, well, I said I'll support my club, but for me, for a match... So will you hold your hands up? That's what I'm saying, will you hold your hands up? We need a thumbnail shot, go on. Yeah, do a thumbnail. You'll AI me anyway, I've seen that before. Take me away, I've literally said that, give us 100 points, give us 300 points, I will be there. And from my perspective going to the games, nothing changes. It's not me that's done this.

38:45We were speaking off camera and you were saying a similar thing. It's me as a fan, I'm here to talk as a fan and give my perspective as a fan. You could have an expert next to me, you could have someone talking about the finances. Me as a fan, we've all banded together, all at the games and nothing changes. How has it been? Obviously in this space we all live a lot of our lives online. You're all sort of content creators, got podcasts. How has it been for you? How tough has it been? I'm absolutely buzzing. I'm absolutely buzzing. We've started the season, we're top of the league. I mean, we went to your national way.

39:12I'm talking about this situation. Yeah, we're top of the league. That's the exact perspective, the exact mentality we've got. We're fans, we go to the game. If we get sent down, we'll be there. If we win the league, we'll be there. And that's the best thing about being a football fan. He was talking about how shit his team is a minute ago. But he'll still be there watching his team. And that's what football means to people. You go there every week because you love your club. When you're shit, it gets you down. When you're good, when you win a cup, it's amazing. But what if you win stuff? I couldn't care less.

39:38I genuinely couldn't care less. Luke, I know you're coming on and it's your club and I understand most fans would be the same, but there must be this feeling of everything I've watched, all those experiences... Jamie, I couldn't give a fuck. I promise you. I haven't finished yet. That feeling that you had as a supporter when someone lifted the FA Cup or Haaland got a goal or you won the Champions League, you can't take that away. I couldn't care less about that. You must be devastated to think that that could be all taken away and seeing that in a completely different light by the whole of football.

40:09Obviously, I'd be gutted if we went down or something, like you said. I don't care about anyone else's views. I think that's quite a... It's this siege mentality people have gone on about. Yeah, it's travelism. I don't understand why everyone seems to think, I'm going to say to this City fan, you should feel like this. You don't know how I'm feeling. You were saying as well, you lived in Manchester for a period of time. You know City fans, you understand the story. We were right down there. If you said to me, go back 15 years now, would you want to win the FA Cup and win all that, regardless of how we've done it, that is exactly...

40:37I'd say yes. and I think anyone that says they wouldn't is lying to themselves. This is what I mean by how are you not embarrassed in the slightest? Embarrassed in a lot. Seamus Coleman sat there and never played in the Champions League because you, but not you, your football club cheated in order for that to happen. What about all the managers that were sacked? He's got his lines up. What about all of the players that never played in competitions because of City cheating? All the people that got sacked because their clubs couldn't afford to pay them because Man City finished ahead of them and they lost out on all of that money.

41:05You're sitting there and you're not having any remorse. I couldn't give a fuck. I understand you don't care about winning the trophies. I think it's insane short-sightedness from you, mate. I think that's what it is. I'll just take you down another avenue. I think if you're short... With all due respect, Seamus Coleman, he's a great player, played in the Premier League. If you can sit here and go, the sole reason Everton didn't get in the Champions League is because of City. I think that's crazy. It's a margins game. Very big reason. I think it's crazy. I think there's 19 teams in the league and I think every single team could go, Everton got to a semi-final, the Carabao Cup.

41:35If City weren't there, who would you have played? You had to play somewhere in the final, you had to play a different... I understand absolutely the foundation that you built it on and then took it step by step. I understand that every single team in the pyramid could make an argument. We got City in the third round. They are, that's what they're doing. They have a right to do that. But they would play against a different team in the fourth round. Wigan won the FA Cup, no-one's saying they shouldn't have won the FA Cup. What about when Everton finished fifth and Man City finished in the top four?

42:01They haven't tossed three times as well. When Everton finish fifth and Man City finish in the top four, because... Who finished sixth that season? I don't know. So if they'd beaten City twice, could they have finished above Everton? Now you're being ridiculous. I'm not being ridiculous. If you say if they'd beaten City twice, the team that you've built that they're saying they should beat you... Football is not black or white. There might have been a team that was four points behind Everton, but they were nine behind City. You can't just use Wigan as an example when it was a 1 % thing out of all the other finals that you've won.

42:30where it's like, oh, we're going to beat us in an FA Cup final. We're not talking about margins, we're talking about 900 million. Yeah, you see, this isn't my point. I'm saying, for example, who did we beat in an FA Cup final? Watford, we'll take them, for example, smashed in the FA Cup final. Who would we have played? Who would they have played if it wasn't for City? United would have been there. But they could have won that game. You don't know the result of that game. The charges and all this didn't happen a minute before kick-off in the FA Cup. What are you saying? You're using Watford as an anchor and saying they would have played United as if Watford wouldn't have won the X.

43:00No, I'm not saying that. Well, the United got a wronged-in semi-fam by playing you and they should want... For every argument you make, there's a complete... I'm saying it's a major spectrum of a thousand things that could have happened. All down to Man City. Right, OK. But I'm saying these arguments are crazy. If you've impacted just one game in that decade, that still makes it like a travesty on that club. It doesn't matter if it's one out of a thousand or a thousand out of a thousand. But we've not impacted one game, have we? Yeah, you have. You've impacted every game you've touched. Just because you mentioned Everton and that Champions League season we could have beat with those three games ago you beat us 3-2 at Gullison we might have won that got into the Champions League would have got you think you wanted to lose that day I'm saying right you don't know me you don't know if I wanted to lose I'd rather Everton got in right and that could have built Everton over the next few years that money couldn't it I'm not saying it's as linear as that I'm just saying they're the examples aren't they when you look and go if that would have happened that we could have won a trophy I guess there's an up on a threat I kind of think City fans can't have it both ways here.

43:58So, like, if you want us to understand your siege mentality and the tribalism, which I do to an extent. We were talking about it out there. I'm not saying I don't understand your mentality. I completely understand it. Yeah, so, like, if it was Liverpool, would I come on here and try and, like, you know, say, well, what do you want me to do? I'm a fan, I'm going to support my team. I probably would say that, yeah. But equally, I probably would say as well, not sure about these owners and their decisions and what they did. But equally as well, you know, I see her online and I've seen it from other City fans where they're saying, you know, people are telling us what to do and how to feel.

44:29Well, what about how we all feel, though? That's fine. You've got to have empathy the other way, haven't you? I'm not sitting here and saying you're wrong for thinking that, you're wrong. I completely understand your perspective. I've not said anything different the whole time. I understand your perspective. So how can you not admit it? I've got my own perspective. But how can you not admit it? So if you've said you understand how he feels, for like, obviously, titles, whatever, same as Baz, how can you not understand or at least accept that you have impacted these clubs? Clearly there's been an impact.

44:55I'm not saying there's not been an impact. You just said that. That's the first time you've just admitted that. You've just been arguing. I'm saying that some of the arguments are crazy. No, some. But even if it's one, even if it's one. I get that, but I understand your perspective, but I've got my perspective. And I feel like when Jamie's sat there and he says, Luke, you watched City win these cups, is it tainted? No, it's not. Not at all. It is. How can you not accept that? From my perspective, it's not. Let's say in 100 years, people look back on City and they go, Fuck it, I'm going to go to my grand-kid.

45:21What was it like when City won the trail? It was absolutely brilliant, mate. I'm not going to say it all, but... If you were Lance Armstrong's dad and he won that race... We're now talking about performance and Anthony Brooks. You are fine. How many players did we have on the pitch? What? How many players did we have on the pitch? 11 very expensive players and amazing managers. Lance Armstrong didn't have a bike that was seven times better. His body was seven times better. There's one, but it wasn't both. That's what I'm saying. It wasn't both. The thing is, we all, like, again, we're all football fans.

45:59We're cut from the same cloth. We feel the same way. But you're sitting there and there's no accountability. There's no holding your hands up. Who am I? I don't understand. What have I done? I don't get it. I really don't get it. I'm a fan. I go to all the games. You want me on here as a fan perspective. I've given him a perspective and you're going, you're wrong. What have you done when you won the Champions League? You didn't do fattles. You just went there and said it. I know. I know that's exactly what football fans do. You'll celebrate that. You didn't do anything. I know I didn't score the goal in the Champions League final.

46:26Cheers for clearing that one. You can't answer yourself from the rest of the football club and say, this is how I feel. But when you win a trophy, it's like, no, we did it. We did it. We did it. You can't say it. I mean, come on. I think it's quite obvious that when I go and watch City win a cup, I've not scored the goal. A hundred percent. You say, no, but you say we, right? But now when we're talking about this, you're saying, no, this is how I feel. I have said we. don't represent every single City fan's perspective. I think I've got a decent, well-rounded, as a match-going fan, I think I've got a decent, well-rounded perspective of the away end, the home end, maybe not 100 % accurate.

46:57What I'm saying is, why me going every week? It's not me. OK, so what I understand is that your perspective as a football fan is that you care about how you feel in your football club, but you don't care about any other football clubs. OK, a question, a question. No, ask the question. No, ask the question. I didn't hear it, go on again. So you as a football fan, you care about your football club and what Man City do. we don't care about anybody else or any other football fan. I wouldn't say I don't care. You said that. OK, I don't care then. Fine then. What do you think about Sheikh Mansour? I had a mask on of Khaledoun and Sheikh Mansour at the weekend.

47:27I think we're all in sort of a position where it's like everyone hates us. And as much as some people are like, well, you think this. We're just getting along with it. I don't go... And again, it sounds easy to say when you're in this position because, I mean, it probably is an easy thing to say, but it's genuinely what I believe. I don't sit here to speak about politics and football. I'm a football fan. And I think anyone in this position would probably be in the exact same position. I've watched my team dominate for 15 years. We're in a position now where everyone is that annoyed and rattled about what we're doing that we're going to turn up with inflatable bananas.

47:57It's been bad. It might be bad again. We're going to put on Shake Man's saw masks. And it's just funny. It's genuinely just funny. This reaction is why it's funny, because you're all fuming. The thing is, the more... You understand my perspective, surely, with that. Also, the more people rise to it, the worse it's going to get. You're going to do it more and more. It's going to feed it. So I totally agree with you in that aspect of being the match going fan. You are the most angry fans sat here. You do know that, don't you? I mean, it is a... How many? 1v10, is it? I haven't even said anything.

48:27I only came back to you because you were having a go whatever. I mean, also with the Chelsea thing as well, and it's easy, people are going to say it's a deflection tactic. I'm well... I'm sat here. Chelsea aren't really ones to talk. I do agree. I agree. 100%. Last time I came on the show, the show you ran away from, by the way, I sat here and said, I'm sitting in the glass house. I can't sit here and say, if an Arsenal fan turned around to me and said, I'll come bigger than yours, even though we've won two European cups. So it's fine to throw stones even when you're in the same... Yes, it is.

48:55I'm admitting it. I'm saying that the stuff that we did, if people want to say it's tainted... What's the phrase again? Don't throw stones in a glass house. And you're still throwing stones. Do you think you would be like that, though, if you faced the same on-pitch sanctions that they might face? Because you did get away with it. 100%, but for me as a football fan, I can think objectively, right? and I'm going to love my team. And what you're saying about your lived experience is true. But I couldn't also understand that what my team did or what your team did has affected other people. And when they're sitting here and saying, can you hold your hands up?

49:23Just hold your hands up. What have I done, right? So if I slapped you now, I'd hold my hands and go, I'll have a slap for you. Hey, what have I... You see what I mean? You see what I mean? What have I done personally? In the same way that you're defending. You're backing them, aren't you? And I understand from a supporter's point of view, everybody... It'd be boring if I didn't know, come on. And that's why you say when you're getting relegated, you're still coming on the fan debate. That'll be it. EFL corner. If they were to be found guilty, Jim, you say you were a player there. If I was a City player.

49:51Yeah, your own pride, if they were to be found guilty. If you had any pride about you, you would feel a bit like, I'm fuming here, I don't feel like I've really... I don't know, not that you'd not want it, but you'd definitely... You'd be gutted, like, you'd be gutted that there's massive question marks over it. You'd be gutted. I think of some of your players it's funny with me I can I can separate the individual players and even Pep to a certain extent I don't think in my head oh Pep's not as good a manager now or Kevin De Bruyne's not as good as a player or Silva I still and Harlan for me still the best goal scorer I've probably ever ever seen in English football it's more the ownership of it and I think if I was like I use Kevin De Bruyne as an example I think one of the greatest midfielders forget the Premier they just this country's ever seen.

50:39He could have played for Madrid, Barcelona, obviously played for City, PSG, anybody. And he chose his career to be Man City. And his career, now, whether you like it or not, is tainted. And the reason I feel for Kevin De Bruyne is because he's never won anything anywhere else, really. He won the Cup at Wolfsburg, part of the season. But what I'm saying is, you've got to say, like, David Silva. even if his City stuff is looked at you know he's won the World Cup he's won the Euros Kevin De Bruyne hasn't so if I was him or a Vincent company and they're known as like these City guys who won these trophies and at the end of my career I think I was one of the best midfielders in the world I could have played for anyone but I chose City company could have played for any club in the world David Silva Aguero and I think I'd be fuming with the ownership I'd be honestly I'd be going do you think they knew though Jamie do you think they knew That was players.

51:35I know you might have a feeling. No, no, they wouldn't have known. But listen, we talk about it. It's in the press. I'm sure they've got an idea. Players just be thinking, I'm getting that in my bank account. I'm playing, I'm winning. I believe them, whatever. I'm not saying Pep knew. I think it's a different thing with a manager. Because the manager deals with the CEO every day. He's probably on the phone to him three or four times a day. Now, I don't think the fella's on the phone to him saying, oh, we've got this dodgy deal. But Pep Guardiola must have an understanding. He's still working for them.

52:02Exactly. Exactly, because the manager before him, he's part of it. Mancini, how he was paid. So to think Pep wouldn't have been asking, or should have been asking serious questions, because people will taint it from his point of view. But in terms of those players, I don't think any less of those players, I don't actually think any less of Pep Guardiola as a manager. Would he have won as much if he had less players or a bit less money? Of course he would. But to say he's not one of the greatest managers of all time, I think it's just nonsense because of this. Would he have gone? He wouldn't have gone, would he?

52:32that's a great point but my point is I look at this as an ownership thing mate and I think they're never going to back down from this because they can never say they were wrong and nobody's ever said no to them because they're so powerful and I think they're just going to keep dragging this along and drag the English game with them or the Premier League and that's why I don't think the ownership can carry on and I think eventually an independent regular league is going to have to get involved with City because if they did do what held their hands up and said okay we're wrong give us our sanction and we all move on.

53:03OK, fine. Chelsea have done that to a certain extent. But I don't think they will. I just think they'll keep going and keep going and dragging the game with them. And I don't think they can continue from there if they continue to do that. Yeah, so, you know, the tainted thing you were saying about the titles, trophies tainted. In 2022, you actually said if City went on that season to win the treble, it'd be the greatest achievement in English football. And is it not? And you said that regardless of the charge as well. No, I didn't. You did, it was in it. No, I said Pep Guardiola. I said Pep Guardiola what I've just said there so you've obviously come on the show haven't you ready and I was with it no I just saw it I know I read the column so what I was saying as I've just said there what those individual players did or what somebody has done as a manager is not taking isolated from anything else as in no as in like I don't think I'm not one of them people now who's going Pep's a fraud Pep for me is still like and then players the job he did at City even though he had players he shouldn't have you still probably spent the same money as Man United Spent more than Liverpool.

54:02But it wasn't a case that I think Man City were going and buying Mbappe or Messi. And it was just like dead easy. So just on that exact point, the Lance Armstrong thing is completely outrageous to say now. You see what I mean? Well, you've just said there, as much as maybe the funds, etc., acquired, the players acquired weren't legitimate. Everyone's agreeing with that, right? You're saying it was almost a level playing field with maybe not Liverpool, but the likes of Man United. Likes. There's only one other team. OK, but Man United there then, right? OK, and Chelsea spent a fair bit as well.

54:33Do you not get the illegal bit in the spending? Do you not get that? Illegal? Yeah, but... What government law? It's not guilty. In face of revenue, it's basically fraud. I mean, there's four people speaking here. Say it again, sir. Do you not get the guilty bit of that spending? Do you not understand? No, I understand that, but what I'm saying is... You're spending money. No, but what I'm saying is Lance Armstrong had way better legs, or whatever you said, than everyone else there, right? Yeah. Why aren't United just winning the league every year? Because we're shite. Exactly, that's my point.

55:01Yeah, I know, but you're doing it illegal. You'd be like Lance Armstrong, having legs and then being given unbelievable legs. I think you'd be in the final Olympics, mate. I don't think that's how it works. Is that not...? What? I don't get what you're doing about people without legs. I'm going to be perfectly honest as well. I went to Villa Park at the weekend, we got beat, and it's been 40 minutes and I've not even been asked about it. Does that one care? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

55:32Matt, I want to bring you in. You've only lost one game in the Premier League so far. You've won at the weekend. The week before, there was a lot made about your performance at Nottingham Furnish. You win 1-0 late. People, so to say, in a really poor performance, not be fitting, maybe champions. And I did a newspaper article because, as I said, Luke's mentioned my newspaper article, so I'm bringing the one up the following week. Would Arsenal change in their style and become more expansive? Do you think that would give you less chance of winning the Premier League? I think anything other than what we're doing right now probably would so, yeah.

56:07I think that we're in a perfect position. Arteta has found his team, he has found his system. And the biggest compliment that we can pay to him is how normal weeks like this are. It's not being spoken about enough. In six days, we went to Forest away, kept a clean sheet, picked up three points, went to Munich, drew against one of the best teams on the planet and then played Everton at home, another clean sheet. That's... What a week that is. And to see everything around us crash and burn and how normalised it has become for Arsenal to just keep on winning, keep on winning, clean sheet after clean sheet, might not be the most beautiful football you've ever seen.

56:43But does it need to be? No. That was me. I look at Arsenal, I actually think... I look at Liverpool the season before. Liverpool won the league and then the club and Arne slot thought, we want to win the league better. we want to I actually spoke to Arne Slott at the end of his first season he's done an interview with him and it was interesting that he was talking about how often we only win by one goal you know it was almost that feeling of like we can have better attackers you know basically with Ryan or Malta you know he was almost even though Liverpool won the league he's like I want more than this I want better football than this and then the players come in and then for lots of different reasons it fell apart the season after.

57:28And it just made me think about Arsenal. But it also makes me think, the next step surely for you is, you want to retain the title. I don't think Arsenal have done that since the 30s. Is that right? Have I got that right? I've never done it in the Premier League. Yeah, yeah. But when I do watch you play, I think it'd be very difficult for you to win the Champions League. And I know you're going to say to me, we only lost on penalties, but last year your run in terms of who you played was very, very favourable. It'd be very difficult to get that run again. but is there a case of right now, forget the Champions League, we each want to win the league again?

57:59No, I don't think it's the case at all. I think we've got the squad to compete in both. Like I said, in the last six days, we managed to... I don't think you've got the attackers to win. I don't think they're good enough. I agree with that. I don't think we have that attack in football, but we got to the final last year. You want to say it was an easy run. I know that it was, but it's still Champions League teams. You've still got to go to tough away games, like Leverkusen and Sporting. These aren't easy games. It's more so the defence in the midfield is just astonishing. How do you break that defence down over two legs as well?

58:27No matter who we come up against, we've got that home advantage, but also we do have the ability to go to tough away games. They'll have home advantage, you won't be in the second. But with our defence is what I'm saying. I think we have that capability of completely locking it up and conceding a maximum of two goals. What about Brighton? That was three. And that was the first time since Man United in between that two years that we conceded three goals in a game. It happens a lot. So, yeah, it's the defence and the goalkeeper as well. Davin Ryan wins us three points almost every week. He's so difficult to beat.

59:00So, yeah, you look at the attack and it's not unbelievable what I think that the goalkeeper defence and midfield make up for it. And some. Seamus, can I bring you in? You've played against the Arteta. Well, you've played with Arteta. And you've played against his Arsenal teams. And you've played against a lot of teams in the Premier League who've won titles. Where do you see this Arsenal team? Yeah, I think, like you said, they're so strong. I think it's took him a while and he was given time. I think the players they recruit are really good defensively. I think Declan in midfield is a machine.

59:35I think Konza coming in has been... I've not seen loads of him, but he's been really, really good. But they have lost a lot of attackers, I suppose. And Saka's got injured as well, so maybe the attacking depth isn't there. but like you said, defensively, organised, strong and there's a kind of togetherness and assiness to them. He's obviously big into the psychology side of it as well. I just feel like he's created an unbelievable strong mentality in that group. What did you think? I'll ask you because you know him a lot better but when I used to play against Arteta, obviously only a couple of times a season.

1:00:13The Arteta that you see on the touchline for Arsenal, I didn't feel like I saw that Arteta in derby games. It almost feels like two different people. Was he always that intense? Because he was obviously a lovely footballer, wasn't he? A technical player. But I didn't see him getting high in games where I see him as a manager. Yeah, no, but he was, like, I was a young lad, maybe that's different. But he was intense, like, behind the scenes at the training ground. And he was, you could see he had the nasty streak to him. or if I can still actually see it. I remember I gave the ball away once in training, like in the beginning, and he didn't even send it to me, but it was his look at me.

1:00:49I was like, that was intense. So I think even when he'd done his ACL that time, like brought his own guy in. The first time I seen someone bringing someone into the club, I seen him doing his exercise at the bottom of the bed, but it was all like professional, intense. But yeah, I know on the sideline, he gets too close to the touchline. many times it can wind you up. But I think he's done a great job and, you know, his first manager job as well. Like, I think he's been unbelievable. Oh, he has. He's done a brilliant job, hasn't he? So, Gareth, I want to bring you in. Liverpool right now feels good.

1:01:24At the moment, really good win. Last couple of, sort of, wins in the league against those teams that no one really wants to play against at the moment. So to Brentford and Brighton. How are you feeling? Yeah, enjoying it. Enjoying not being the story. Enjoying the prospect of both Manchester clubs going down. And we feel like we're quietly on a journey of just sort of getting better and better, really. I think last time I came on, I talked about it felt like he'd kind of fixed the defensive side of the team early. And then it was going to be a case of could we now start scoring goals and look on a threat at the other end of the pitch?

1:02:00And that's now starting to happen. Isak's on this hot streak of scoring goals. Barcola started to contribute. Rio Ingram was in great form as well. So, yeah, I'm really, really happy. I think the biggest thing for me is the fight, the scrap and the spirit. That is clearly there. Loads of it coming from Ronald Araujo. I think he's become this hero in a very short space of time. I think everyone wants him signed up already. He sort of epitomises, if you like, what we're getting from Liverpool right now. I mean, he was absolutely smashing people yesterday, going through tackles, even tackling people with his head on the floor.

1:02:43And, you know, when you see that, that's what you want as a fan, first and foremost. I know, you know, more limited players can do stuff like that, but they don't all do it. You know what I mean? Sorry to bring you up, but I watched your game and I'm like, that intensity is not there, that spirit's not there. They're not fighting for each other. It's Wilfred Boney's fault, though, that's why. You know what I mean? So I think there are good signs there. And before a ball was kicked, I was like, I think we can be round about third in the league is where I thought was a realistic prospect for us come the end of the season.

1:03:16And that's roughly where we are. The thing I like right now is, is the fact that they're getting results, things are going well, but I still think there's a lot of improvement. When I watch the games, I still don't think Liverpool have had one 90 minutes where you go, everything was like, proper that you know 3-4-0 win got the goals looked solid at the back kept the ball every game there's still something like oh we'll want to fix that like even you know yesterday Brighton are a good side by the way had a few chances but kept the ball a lot and I think we had about 35 % possession now it doesn't matter you win the game but I do still think there's like we're doing well we're winning games but I still think there's lots to improve as well 100 % I agree with that and a lot of people were coming out saying you know is that really what you'd expect at Anfield, the 35 % possession thing and all that.

1:04:07I mean, I'll always say that, you know, winning trumps anything. But I think over time, you'd want to see more control. And even sort of, you know, Brentford away. Fantastic results. I don't think they've been beating at home in the league since February. But even when they were down to nine, it was a bit panicky at the end. And I kind of think that was part of what you're talking about, about we're not quite there yet. It's not quite clicking yet. They're all, you know, partnerships, understandings and all that kind of stuff are still in the early stages you know we look at jack here i think he's been absolutely brilliant for us but he's played eight premier league games you know him i've watched obviously my position i think he's the first center and it's to do with virgil's age as well but it almost feels like he's the first center back who's starting to almost look after virgil a little bit rather than the other way around and even though he's only played eight games I already feel he's an upgrade on everybody else Virgil's played alongside I know it's early to say that but he really does he does look the part doesn't he and Virgil was always going to need that at some stage where he just has to play his own game he can't look after a back four he can't look after a centre back part I think we're at that stage now where Van Dijk's still playing well but he should just be left to play his own game Yeah I think you can see that in Van Dijk's face as well when he talks about Jack it's almost like you know the father with the you know talking about his son when he's watching you know he's got that sort of like he knows he's the absolute business and you know he's come in he's 21 years old he's only just picked up his his first cap for France while he's been on Liverpool's books so for all that me in particular you know I've gone in on Liverpool loads of times about not buying X or Y or not making the right decisions in the transfer market I think that's one way you've got to say they've got in there early they've bought someone I know other clubs were looking at them I think Chelsea were in for them as well weren't they but that's a fantastic signing and they've signed someone where how often do we say it's going to take a while they've come from a different league it's going to be physical I thought Brentford was going to be the one for Jackie because we know what they're like and how they play and I thought that's going to be a real test for them and obviously has the beef that gets the lads sent off and all that kind of stuff and all game that I kind of thought they were trying to play on them a bit they were trying to they were like this lad's not used to our league we'll give him it a bit and you came through it you just said before you thought this season realistically the best Liverpool could do was third i was just just thinking just get champions league this season he's when i was seeing some of the performances early in the few weeks but it's improved since then do you think if liverpool beat arsenal at home they're in the title race i think everyone will say it won't they and i think you know look we've had big conversations here with luke about what it is to be a football fan and what we're all like, we're not pundits, we're not meant to be sensible.

1:07:00So, you know what I mean? If we go and beat Arsenal at home, and we've beat Chelsea in the League Cup, say, as well, we'll be on a run there of, what, six, something like six wins in a row, and beating the champions, of course, people will start to say, I think people are sneakily just starting to say, well, we're a handily place, we're in a nice place. I think, you know, the sensible lad would say it's too early for Ola but I think you go and beat Arsenal you do it comfortably people will never I've never believed Liverpool are in a title race this season but if you win if you beat the champions and you're closer than the table but we all look at your Iola's squad and we probably say he's being dealt a bad hand to a certain extent what could Liverpool do in January that could propel them into a title race if obviously the situation with City resolves and they're not actually in the title race and you're thinking, it's just Arsenal.

1:07:52It's not actually the two teams we think we need to overtake. There's just one now. Yeah, it's still similar stuff, isn't it, I think, to what I was probably saying a couple of months ago. So, I'm still not... Me, personally, I'd still like to see a bigger, more physical midfielder that can play deeper for Liverpool. I still don't quite think we've got someone who's ticking that box. And then, at right-back, I mean, Ronnie's done so well there he's not a right back though is he? No You know even by his own admission so he's charging up and down flying into people he's scored a couple of goals but ultimately he's a centre half I'd still like to see some strengthening there because I don't I don't want to see Frim Pong play right back I just don't think he is a right back I don't think you can get away with it in the Premier League having someone that sort of that small playing at right back so someone who's who's a right back I wouldn't mind it.

1:08:50Left back? Possibly as well, yeah. Because, I mean, look, Simakas, we were happy for him to go on loan. He went on loan, he's come back. I think he's a nice lad and it was kind of part of me that was, you know, it was nice for him. I was seeing his social media post about how made up he was to captain Liverpool and I thought, you know, the human side, that is quite nice. But equally, I don't think he's good enough. And I think Liverpool need an upgrade in that position, definitely. Seamus, you've come up against a lot of Liverpool teams, obviously played in big derby games as well how do you see Liverpool where they are at the moment?

1:09:21Yeah, I mean I think the manager suits what Liverpool are as a club, his style, intensity obviously I was coming on so I watched the game yesterday and I probably did pick up a little bit on what you said about the midfield area and I thought Brighton were good in them areas and McAllister, like when Gravenberg and Wurtz were kind of pushing up the press McAllister was alone there and you'd see kind of maybe runs off the back of Van Dijk and that was if you did have a strong, like a Declan Rice type person in that area, it would help. But, you know, I played against top class Liverpool sides and the physicality was kind of nearly there all over the pitch and a bit like you talked about the right back.

1:10:03I think the relationships were there. You had Roberts and Mane, you had Trent, you could just reel off the team and the midfield was so strong. So I think they're obviously not at the level of that team, But, I mean, they're learning on the job and you said winning games at the minute. Just come to me, you've said Liverpool want a right back. Would you take Trent back in January? I think that would be a tough one for the fan. That's almost like the same kind of answer as well, I've just given about would we be title contenders. I think if you're sitting there as a pundit and all level-headed and you don't sort of rule with your heart what you do as a football fan, then you'd say, yeah, he was absolutely brilliant for Liverpool.

1:10:45he'd come back in he'd be great in the Premier League he'd add something that we definitely don't have but it's everything else isn't it it's everything else that went on it's the way he left it's the stuff that some of his family were saying on social media that they can go down particularly well He's going back to your ex basically is what it is Yeah and it's all like he rocks up there Any experience of that Luke? He can speak Spanish Come on

1:11:11So I think people would be incredibly torn I think purely football, then yeah, he improves the side, doesn't he? Is that rumoured? At the moment, he's actually third choice, right back for Real Madrid. They're playing a midfield player at right back. So even last night in the Classical, Dumfries, the first choice right back, if you like, comes on sub. So I think when you're third choice at a club, I mean, they're obviously wanting you to... Can't last long, right? Oh, no. You know, you swallow your pride. I mean, Trent is so unbelievable at football. The people make mistakes. Wouldn't you welcome him back and say you fucked up?

1:11:51I mean, I probably would, but I can think of plenty of people that wouldn't. Do you know what I mean? I can remember being on here way back when he was still a Liverpool player and there's a big debate about people's reaction in the ground towards him when they knew he was going and the fact that he was just staying silent and he was making mad gestures towards the fans and all that. Fans aren't homogenous, are they? So some people got it, some people said, you never boo your own, other people were like, fuck him, you know what I mean? And I kind of think it would be the same if it came back. It's also difficult when you've got someone who's become a bit of a cult hero in that position.

1:12:24That's the problem. Everyone loves him. Every Liverpool fan online is like... So much positivity about him, yeah. I'd have him back anyway. Even though I've given plenty of stifters. I think he made a mistake, Colin, I do. I do as well. He probably knows that now, I think he made a big mistake. But, as I said, if something benefits Liverpool Football Club going forward, And we do have, when you think of the problems Liverpool have, in terms of the right-back. Ronnie's been fantastic. I agree with you, but we do have a problem. You can't kiss him. He's home-back's passing. We've definitely missed his creativity.

1:12:54You can eventually kiss and make up over these things, I think, as well. Emma Torres came back. Well, that's what I was just about to say. Not officially. He came back for a charity game. He came back for a friendly, a charity game, and everyone was all over it. Because it was sort of like everyone just thought, we didn't like the way he left, but you know what? He was absolutely brilliant for us. and it was a great moment that wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. We'll see.

1:13:41and horrors that feel a little too real. And this October, we're taking things even further with our annual 31 Days of Horror event. For 31 days, we're releasing two stories a day, every day, in the run-up to Halloween. That's 31 chances to find something that gets under your skin and refuses to leave. This is creepy. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

1:14:20Chelsea. Kwaku. I was gutted to see you lose at the weekend because I'd done a big interview with Xavi Alonso. I told him to get loads of views. All the Chelsea fans will be made up with this interview. And then you just go and get beat. And then the interview is being thrown back in my face. by one Rory Jennings, whose place you've taken on the show, thanks for that. How bad a defeat was that? I know it's a bad defeat because it's Tottenham at home, but in terms of how you sort of look at the manager? Objectively, if you told me that you're going to lose 2-0 at home against a team that's that place on the table and your best player gets sent off, yeah, unacceptable.

1:15:00And the fact that it's Spurs, a team that we never lose to at home. That's your point to me. Sorry, I'll put you on that one. Lotta beat Chelsea, too, now at the bridge. It was just, yeah, it was unacceptable, really. It was the performance, the lack of fight, lack of ambition, how reactive, as opposed to proactive, Alonso was, how long it took to make substitutions, even to start in XI. It was just poor from start to finish. And it's a Chelsea team that, when you're in the pre-season, right, we're football fans, we're irrational, we're thinking, and maybe if he gets this right and gets this right, one game a week we might be able to challenge for a title.

1:15:35Obviously, unrealistic. So, off the back of a result like that, it's important to take a step back and say the goal and ambition for Chelsea this season is to finish in the top four. And if you're a team that's looking to finish in the top four, you are going to have mixed variables in terms of results. So, you're going to have games like that. But it's the opposition and it's who it's against is the reason why Chelsea fans are, rightly so, absolutely infuriated. We can't accept losing to Spurs in that manner. This is unacceptable for a Chelsea manager. And for a manager like Alonso, who was such an incredible centre-midfielder, to give up that much control on the football match is concerning.

1:16:11And I think he knows that. I think it comes down to the fact that when you look at a team like Arsenal, for example, the reason why Arsenal have so much control is Odegaard is Arteta on the pitch. When you look at City, Bernardo and David Silva were pep on the pitch. Alonso hasn't got that yet at Chelsea. That will come in time. we might sign a player that might become that but I think a top football club is important that a manager has a player that he can see that they're thinking the same way he's thinking and we haven't got that at Chelsea and look at the midfielders, they're conventional like I said, there's top of what he does but he doesn't bring control to a football man It was felt like you'd brought a goalkeeper in I think in the summer, Martin he's obviously not the same goalkeeper he was when he won the World Cup but when I look at your sort of defenders and I look at the lads at right back I think he's doing really well Achipong, I think he's doing really well but look at the signing of Lacroix and I really liked him at Crystal Palace in a back three and I was watching him against Tottenham and other games this season and I was seeing him like he was pressing man to man and everyone was jumping out and it just didn't look comfortable to me or mobile enough to be in a back four and jumping out of man to man marking and jumping out of Madison and it just feels to me when I look at his defenders I think I've said this a lot if he looks at every defender it's the same six out of ten seven out of ten there's no still not got that somebody you build your defence around or can hold it all together it just looks very average I completely agree and it it might be a bit reductive but I think that every top football team firstly play four at the back like that's what top football teams do unless you have a special situation where we have Conte ten years ago he played three at the back and changed it but play four at the back and if you're playing four at the back you need that A side to centre back talk about how brilliant Xhaka is I guarantee you Xhaka came to Chelsea with no A-side next to him, he will not look as good as he looks at Liverpool right now.

1:17:58And so when you haven't got that guy, when you've got Lacroix and Colwell, who are good players in their own right, but not that A-side, the alpha centre-back, we even saw it at Arsenal, right? I think that Gabriel's amazing. He's blossomed into an incredible defender. We saw what Gabriel looked like before Sliba joined the football club. And Sliba is that A-side. And so I do think that if you're trying to build a defence, you need that centre-back that is the linchpin of that back four, that not only concentrates on his job and defends properly, but also commands everybody else. And we don't have that.

1:18:25And that comes with time and that comes with investment. But what I'm keen to not do is, Chelsea fans, we're very impatient, right? Because we've seen success come off the back of second managers. We're in the Champions League off the back of second manager. But I think we've got one with Alonso. I think he thinks about football the right way. And fair enough, he didn't work at Real Madrid. But I think I implore Chelsea fans to be patient because it takes time. It took Arteta time. It took Klopp time. It's going to take Alonso time. This season, he has to qualify for the Champions League, not just because we need to be in Champions League football, because of finances.

1:18:56I just think that if we give him enough seasons and we bring in the right players, we've got a nucleus there. Some players who are really, really good. Cole Palmer on this day is a top player. Kaisela is a top player. Morgan Rodgers has settled in really well. Jao Pedro is one of the best strikers in the league. And on Jao Pedro, he's a part... The reason why we're losing games like this is our best form of defence is attack. And there's no coincidence that the two games that Jao Pedro missed this season was Brentford away, we've got Smash 3-0, and Spurs and what he gives you the ability to score a goal out of nowhere and all of a sudden you're defending the lead as opposed to chasing the game and that's part of the reason why we're failing right now.

1:19:31I'm sure you watched the interview with me and Xavi Alonso on Sky Sports Premier League YouTube. Great interview. So you've watched it? Yeah. What did you take from it? He thinks about football. He thinks about football and he's very kind of, I think because of the style of football that he was, people assume that he's going to play football a certain type of way but what he showed at Leverkusen is that he's got different ways to skin a cat. And I think that he's going to bring that to Chelsea in terms of his ability to change things up depending on the opposition. But what I do want to see a bit more of is that fire and that dog.

1:20:05Again, you're his mate, so you're sitting there talking to him and you're talking about your experiences with him. But what I thought was interesting was when he said about when he joined Liverpool as a youngster, he was telling Rafa about players or how this team couldn't improve. And I think the fact that he was thinking about that as a youngster, So the fact that you talk about Arteta, who you played with, who thought like that, he's cut from the right cloth. He's a manager that I think, given time and given the right resources, he'll do the job at Chelsea. But right now, Chelsea fans are reeling.

1:20:32The reason why Rory Jennings is having the spats of other content creators is because you can't lose at home against Spurs like that. It's unacceptable. Chelsea managers don't do that. Even our worst season, even Battle of the Bridge, where you're going for the title and we are 2-0 down, finished 10th that season. We find a way to get back into that game. And again, this is a play that I love. Cole Palmer needs to... He needs to find the play that he was two or three years ago. Because PR is not everything, but sometimes perception is reality. You pull out of an England squad, everyone's talking about that.

1:21:03Now you're seeing the stats online about his record in big games or against the big six. Soon that starts to seep into the player's mind as that starts to become a reality. And so this is a big week. Of course, he's missing the Liverpool game in the Carabao Cup. But against Manchester United on the weekend, he has to turn up and deliver. And he's paid the big money. Every time a new player comes into Chelsea, he gets given a new contract because he is our best player. It's time to prove it. Ben, how are you feeling now? Was it unbelievable? Was you at the game? Yeah. Brilliant. It was unbelievable.

1:21:30I think one of the best away days that we've had because we don't go and win there. You know, twice now in 31 years, I don't think any Spurs fan really expected that. I think we were just, given the fact that we've seen a lot of, you know, kind of encouraging signs through the games that we haven't won and then, yeah, they're building up to the Coventry game where we actually didn't play our best. I've seen us play a lot better than that this season and not win the game. I think a lot of us were just hoping that we'd see a performance that was again going to put another foot forward and just hope we can get a result.

1:22:01I mean, it was in the pub before the game and when you see Jao Pedro's out, it gives you a little bit of confidence. But as Kweku kind of alluded to, I reckon Spurs could go to Stamford Bridge with prime Kane, prime Gareth Bale, prime Son in the same team and Chelsea could be in the bottom three and I still don't think we would win. So mentally what that could do to the group moving forward, especially off the back of the performance that we put in and exerted so much control over Chelsea. I think that's huge for us moving forward because I think anyone that's really watched Spurs and paid attention to us and I think we've become this sort of, this huge story over the last year with how we've been in the relegation battle and all that kind of stuff.

1:22:34People don't want to view us through a lens that they don't feel comfortable with. They want to see us as this banter club that everyone was desperate for us to go down last year and I think that's why a lot of Spurs fans are coming in with their sort of chest puffs out because we've had it from absolutely everyone. And now we're sitting here off the back of beating Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, having, what, 68 % possession, controlling the game completely. Those new big signings that we made in the summer that there was a lot of question marks around at the time with how much we paid for the likes of Fernandes and Tenali.

1:23:04You know, Fernandes, Tenali and Maddison were the best free players on the pitch, I think, in that game, especially Fernandes in that second half. And I just feel like that's a massive thing that we can kick on from now. I'm a big fan of Fernandes. He's top. He hadn't started the season well. I didn't understand why the manager was playing him in the number 10 role. Then sometimes he wasn't playing. But I watched him for West Ham a few times last season. I thought he was a player in. Yeah. And he was the one I think United should have just gone for. I know he's brought three. He should have just brought two and he was one of them.

1:23:30I said that as well. He was young, plenty of time to improve. He looked class for West Ham last season. And that was the first time I've seen him in a Tottenham ship. He really looked the part. But I think he's a player in. Well, like you said, he's not been played in his best position so far this season. There's been some strange comments that De Zerbi made around him before the Chelsea game, saying that he needs to understand the club that he's at and all this kind of stuff. A bit vague, a bit ambiguous, and it was frustrating to read that as a Spurs fan, because I remember the last time I was on here, I said that I think he could be young player of the season, because he was coming in with so much potential.

1:24:01And also I felt that he was exactly the kind of midfielder that we've needed. We've had midfielders over the last few years that have been, especially under Thomas Frank last season, that have been more intent on the physical side of the game, the duels. Fernandes can do that as well. He can cover the ground, especially when he's next to Tonali, you get more out of Fernandes on the ball. But when you've got Tonali alongside him, he can do a lot of that stuff in terms of mopping up to bring the best out of a ridiculously talented player that can help you control the game. And Spurs have not got that balance right.

1:24:28We've not bought that kind of midfielder. So it was so satisfying for, after everything that's happened so far this season with Fernandes, not being played or not being played in his best position, to plop him in there for his first start actually in central midfield against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. to look like the most expensive midfielder on the pitch. He was absolutely outraging. I thought Madison was brilliant for us in the first half. I thought we were able to kind of find him in the pockets where he could play balls in behind and just help the game ticking over. But obviously he goes off injured.

1:24:55And the way that Fernandes stepped up after that, because I think any fan that was in that away end or any fan that was sitting there watching at home knows how important Madison is to us. And this isn't a slight on Conor Gallagher whatsoever, but he doesn't give you what Madison does. Different types of players. Different types of players. So when you see that substitution being made, I think everyone's thinking the same thing. we're in control here we've got Chelsea kind of where we want them still a few issues in the final third but we're playing really really well so for them Fernandes to step up in the way that he did after Maddison came off I thought he was top level Where do you think they can finish this season Spurs?

1:25:25I know you would have had opinions before the season started I'm not sure what you said maybe it was top six something like that but obviously you had a poor start result wise but now performances are improving starting to pick up results what do you think? I definitely think we're challenging around those European places I do believe that especially with one game a week starting to take a little bit more of an effect now where the Champions League and the Europa League are kind of getting to the really sort of starting to start and I just think that Spurs have got a run of decent games now coming up against Palace at home next week who have conceded the most amount of goals in the league it's a game that we should win I know you can't take anything for granted with our home form over the last couple of years but we've got that win under our belt against Cov and then we've got the likes of Sunderland Leeds, Fulham after that and there's one more game in there I can't remember before we play Arsenal.

1:26:11And I'm not necessarily expecting anything from that game, but I think what Saturday does mentally for this group of players and this manager, it means that you're not fearing games like that anymore. You're not fearing anyone, really. And I think that sort of gives the fans a feeling back of what we had under Pochettino. It's very early days. We've only won a couple of games, but I just think a result like that could be so huge in terms of propelling us forward this season, being able to control a game like that. And I think we could finish in and around those European places and push for top six, top five.

1:26:41I do believe that. Do you like the tough love from Deserbia? It's just on my mind then, but obviously Tells scores a wonderful goal at Stamford Bridge and he was the one who got battered on the pitch by Deserbia. Fernandes, best player on the pitch at Stamford Bridge. He had the press conference, he's got to understand what it takes to play for Spurs. I think when it's bad and he's doing all that stuff, it's really bad, but when you get a big win like that and Tells scores and Fernandes is your best player, you can do a lot of that. And I just, I think like, it's funny how football is because if they lost that game, the house is burning down kind of thing.

1:27:11But I don't know, I think that tough love when it worked. I do agree. I can just see them both kicking on now, I don't know why. I mean, I didn't see... I was quite big on Tell in the summer. I think that he's always been a young player that's shown a lot of mentality and a lot of heart, but it hasn't fully clicked for him and he's shown quality in moments. But the first four games of the season, we played Everton and he had that sort of little altercation with Deserby on the pitch, which I thought was a little bit unfair from Deserby at the time, even though I think the things that he was criticising him for, A lot of the fans have felt very similar frustrations towards Tell, which is why it was super satisfying for him to do what he did on Saturday.

1:27:42But it was interesting. De Zerbe, as soon as the final whistle went, he walked straight down the tunnel. And to kind of your point of what you're saying, he probably lets the players go and enjoy that with the fans. But as soon as Fernandes and Tell walk back into that dressing room, players that he has kind of played it like that with in terms of criticising them on or holding them to higher standards, they're probably walking back into that dressing room and he's looking at them thinking, that's exactly what I want from you. And I do think, you know, Now, I had concerns about De Zerbi when he came in, in terms of the longevity of what this could be.

1:28:09Because, like you said, it's a bit like the Conte thing, really. Like, he's a bit hot-headed and if he doesn't get the back in, you know, he's going to throw his toys out the pram. But he has had the back in and I think he's proved now why. You know, everyone can see what the problem is with Spurs. We've got great build-up. We look like we can control games now. We get our wingers into really dangerous positions. It's just that final little bit. And he's proved with the tools that he's been given in the summer, albeit, you know, very expensively, that he was the manager worth giving those tools to.

1:28:37And now if you can add those last little bits on top in attack, then I think this could be something that works. It can turn around very quickly in the short term, but also can work quite well in the long term.

1:28:53From a man who thinks his team can qualify for Europe to a team who came very close to qualifying for Europe last season, Baz. And you've got Everton Royalty here on the couch. Yeah. That should cheer you up as well. only lost two games so far this season obviously lost to Arsenal at the weekend but Evertonium still seem unhappy to me from what I see online I know you can never gauge that fully about people online but it feels like a constant negativity not happy I mean what did you expect this season with what David Moyes was left with really you know one striker who's probably not the answer I was hoping and it still might play out like that they wouldn't be too far away from going for Europe again I'm not saying they'd get in it but at least in that you're 11th now yeah yeah it's not the end of the world they've lost to Chelsea and Arsenal but I think I think the disappointment obviously there's all the stuff with the takeover or you know CFG pulling the money and late in the day and not getting what we needed and obviously that's because that uncertainty is there again it just feels really flat but the performance against Chelsea last week the second half was just unacceptable.

1:30:04There was nothing. It was just, the minute Neto's gone, it was a terrible goal. Absolutely terrible goal to give away. It just felt like the game was over and that goal was 45 seconds into the second half. And I think the managers took a little bit of stick for substitutions and not changing anything. And that sort of rolled into Arsenal, really. Not that you're expecting anything going to the Champions. It's a tough game, but it's 11 v 11. and it sort of played out the way I expected it to. I said 2-0 all week with a goal in each half. You just let us come at you. And that was it. There's no change.

1:30:43So I think people are frustrated because it's a really difficult one because it's like what you'd expect, but there's got to be a little bit more than just doing the same thing because it just feels like we're always at the same point every year. Everything can get patted on the head, I think, a little bit. it's just like, well, what did you expect? You know, we can do anything, whatever. But it can't be like that. As a football fan, we speak about how much it costs a go. You know, you've got to be able to have a go at teams. Are you putting that more at the ownership of the manager? I think it's everything, Jamie.

1:31:14I think it's everything. I think it's just all rolled together. David Moyes has had a difficult task this summer because he didn't get what he probably needed. The ownership have been poor because... Not what they've done, because they put Everton in a better position to be sold again. I think when you change course in a transfer window, you believe you're giving X amount of money to spend and you've got your targets and then they don't let you get the targets. Then you sell a striker, then you sell... Moyes in there. Then you sell Illuminati, who's your best player, and then you don't replace them.

1:31:50Obviously, you're on the back foot there, but it was just last week for me, Chelsea, not so much Arsenal. Chelsea, one thing under David Moyes is that it was all at home. not away there's always been a reaction if you go behind there's a bit of a reaction you'll go with teams and all that and I don't think Chelsea played particularly well last week and it was almost like the biggest criticism I'm seeing is the same thing if he plays the name rather than the 11 that are in front of him I think it's been said this week as well by a couple of different people I don't know whether you even said it sometimes it's you're playing Chelsea oh my god it's Chelsea but it's not Chelsea under Merino or under Conte it's Chelsea under Alonso that are trying to sort of get away of playing and there is obviously no Grealish no Brantway on Saturday makes a big difference but the home one it's still stuck in my throat more than Arsenal because I expect Everton at home to go with everybody because you've got 50 ,000 people there who are backing it and if you get beat 2-0 but you've had the right good goal we walk out and go alright they were just better but it was worrying last week because it was quiet everyone walked out I didn't see any anger I've just seen like a resignation and it's October James how do you see with Everton sort of right now you've seen the ownership change David Moyes the manager you know well got great respect for come back in do a great job bringing the club back after Sean Dice how do you see where it is for Everton can you understand the frustrations yeah no of course listen I've said it to you before I live in the street and the fan base of Everton are demanding and they're not going to sit still and I don't know, like as, you know, my early days at Everton, it was always like you were chasing something, whether it be Europe or I used to be talking about, oh, I'd love to win an FA Cup or whatever.

1:33:39And you get scared that much from the relegation battles that you can fall into a place of like, oh, I just want to be okay. And that's not the right answer for the size of Everton's football club, but it's difficult because the managers come in and you see it from your side, I see it from mine, but he stabilised a group inside that was in a bad place and then in the summer, who sells a striker before you get one in? I know we can all have frustrations and the performances probably weren't where they should be, but you can't even take off your striker who might be tired from around to replace him with another one because you don't have one and we're talking about Premier League level club.

1:34:24like and I just don't understand how that can happen but the gaffer will work hard, he'll get the job done and all the rest and I just think from being stung so many times, I'm not saying this is right, it's nearly where my mindset shifted to over the last few years, I just want us to be okay, get a few more bodies in in January and then Europe would be great and then whatever happens from there is another thing but the players we didn't bring in loads of quality attacking players like Indai left wasn't really replaced and then Beto left and not really replaced. Moise Goddard is in his last year isn't he?

1:35:11I just think in that situation I totally agree with what Seamus said and that's what supporters were saying we just want a couple of years of not sleepless nights going into March in April and Moyes give you that and as supporters you want more then don't you and I think some of the frustration at the end of last season was a little bit harsh in terms of we could have went to Europe the last few games of the season and this summer he's been dealt a bad hand he has been dealt a bad hand in terms of transfer wise I think probably Evan will probably finish where they are now and I know the supporters will probably be a bit angry about that and maybe will not want David Moyes to maybe stay or sign a new contract and I just think it would be really interesting what happens to Everton over the next couple of years if they get a new manager in.

1:35:54Because I think, yeah, you think, because every supporter wanted to go that way, it could easily go the other way, where it was before Moyes came back, where it felt like every season was fighting relegation. Because when I still sometimes look at Everton's squad, I still look at that and think, I'm not saying it's a relegation squad, my point being is, somebody not managing that group of players well and getting things wrong and making mistakes, that could easily find itself fighting for the Tlava. Look at West Ham. West Ham got rid of him. I know, but that's... I've just listened to half an hour, and it just sounded like Everton on drugs.

1:36:31No, it is. We are the same. But what I'm saying is that you're right, and I've got pelters from defending David Moyes, even this season, people are going, you like him, and I do like David Moyes, I do. I think some of the stick he gets. He's still frustrating. Yeah, but it's because it's almost the same thing. You always know, I knew on Monday what would happen to Arsenal on Saturday. Now, that's the way it is. No matter who was managing it, Everton. No, I know, but you don't miss the point. The point is, there are players there that he's not playing. And the fans, no matter what, the fans want to see more of Dibbling.

1:37:02They don't want to jump on, but they don't really want to see Brennan Johnson on the right-hand side. They'd rather see Tyler Dibbling and things like that. There's a lad behind you with an Everton kiss on just nodding his head. Oh, no. Listen, because Sheamus is talking about no replacement for Barry, but the manager has said Brennan Johnson's the replacement, but he can't be the replacement if he's playing on the right wing. You can't, do you know what I mean? Sometimes managers say things like cats are saying. I know what I'm saying is, for a lot of Evertonians, they're just fed up because it just seems to not go anywhere.

1:37:29No, I get it. It's not necessarily David Moyes. I think you need better owners than what we've got. You need that ambitious owners, whatever that means, but ones who are going to at least back you as much as you can. But you can't blame Everton fans as well for wanting better. And I talked about myself there, about feeling in that safe zone. but it's been so long. Every other club has had something, some kind of success or something, some cup final or whatever. It's been so long that I understand the fans. They are a group of fans there that remember good times, successful times. So you don't want to stop their ambition either from a fan base you want.

1:38:06But of course, it's got to be careful. If we can just... I always said, if we can hang on around not being too far away, get to January, then if we can grab a couple in in January, he proved last year he can get results it's just this is a tough period we've got Newcastle twice and then Coventry before the next international break so there's some big games coming up if we can get through on Thursday in the Cup and then maybe get four points out the next six before the break then they'll be in a handy position and obviously they'll be in the quarter final of a Carabao Cup then you never know what happens so I think that it can turn very quickly I don't think people want them out necessarily it's just frustration with how it goes and it feels like limbo Jamie it feels like limbo not for the manager because of what's going on if TFG were like we're here for the long goal and we're going to back them it'd probably feel a bit different but I think people are just like you know what it's like here we go again and there's no direction and that's the frustration too predictable that's it it just feels like we've done all this before and we're paying more money than we've ever done to go and do it so that's where the frustration is but a couple of good results and it flips doesn't it look at Spurs OK guys Thank you and we're going to finish with our community question Right community question sent in by Paul from Lincoln Hi Paul right, it's the Palindore tonight.

1:39:30So this episode will go be going out after that But who do we think should win it? Harry Kane, Harry Kane, Harry Kane, do we think that we said he's an Englishman or do we genuinely believe it? He didn't know I said I think Harry Kane should win it. However, I think that The Ballon d 'Or should be given to the best footballer on the planet. And for me, that is still Lionel Messi. But you just said Harry Kane should win it. Yeah, yeah, because he will win it. Messi won't win it, but the best footballer in the world is still Messi. He scored 70-year-old. I do think he deserves to win it this year, but I do think he should always go to the best footballer.

1:40:07No, because I would say that... I'm not saying he should win it, but I think Jamal's got an absolute belter of a chance. He's got a good chance, but it's Harry Kane. Apparently it's Mbappe that's won it. Yeah, so do you think that Kane's better than Mbappe? Last season, absolutely. No, that's what I'm saying. It doesn't matter. Mbappe could get injured then, do his ACL first game, he's the best player. No, I know, yeah. I do think Kane will win it, but I don't think he's the best player in the world. He was last year, he definitely was. No, I don't think he was. Yeah, but I'm not going to do the best.

1:40:40That's an opinion, isn't it? No, I know, that's what I'm saying, yeah. People would say best to watch, wouldn't they? Yeah, yeah. Best to watch. It did frustrate me with Laminya Mao in his interviews where he was saying that basically when he said the Ballon d 'Or should go to him and it's like, I can do things that no other player can't. But that's relative to position. Because Harry Kane can do things as a striker that no other striker can do. Laminya Mao is better to watch. I love Harry. I'm always going to stick up for him. And if Laminya Mao won it, I'd have no complaints about that. But I do find that whole...

1:41:07The discourse around this Ballon d 'Or has been so jarring. Mbappe won nothing, Mbappe. Not even Real Madrid. Mbappe could just win it. Honestly, he could just give it Mbappe. That's a joke, that. But I know, but that's the type of thing they do, that. Yeah. What more could Harry Kane have done? I get, you know, to a level, he could have won the Champions League. Yeah. But what more could he as a personal player do? He scored in both legs in the semi-final. He scored 70 goals. Turned up in the semi-final against Argentina. He scored six at the World Cup. Yeah, but like... Balladour's the one in moments like that.

1:41:35And Mbappe didn't do that either. Yeah, but Jamal did nothing in the World Cup. I didn't say Mbappe. Jamal did he get one goal in the World Cup? I think Harry Kane he got one goal yeah I probably just I think it's the Jamal thing I just think I think Mbappe and Kane both had very good World Cups and I get your point that you want Harry Kane to turn up more in the semi-final but Mbappe obviously in Spain doesn't really get a kick Jamal was probably the one player for Spain who had a bit like we need him to come to the party type of thing I think if Jamal has a great World Cup he probably wins it and then you're looking at two players who's basically who's got the most goals was really Mbappe and Kane, but Kane did win a couple of...

1:42:14Did he win the double? Yeah, he won the league and the cup. Winning the double for Bayern Munich is almost a given in some ways. Mbappe didn't win a trophy last season. Mbappe didn't win anything last season. That's what I'm saying. I still think they could give it him. I think they will. They were still on about Declan Rice before, I'm telling you. One penalty kick away from Declan Rice being given it. Declan Rice was never winning the Ballon d 'Or. Could have won it. Once he won the Champions League. How could he have won it? Champions League, Premier League, best player for the team that did...

1:42:41You didn't do that. He's the best player in the world and Declan Rice is not the best player in the world. No, he's not the best footballer in the world. But Harry Kane didn't win the Champions League either. No, but what I'm saying is, had Declan Rice have won the Champions League and the Premier League, I think that they would have given it. Also, to be fair to Kane, he scored in both legs of the quarterfinal against Madrid. He scored in both legs of the semifinal against PSG. I think he scored in Poker final. He scored a hat-trick. And the thing is, because it's the Bundesliga and La Liga has more romanticism around it, because it's Barca and Madrid, and I totally get that.

1:43:06Bayern have more of a monopoly over that league. But, you know, Laminia Mou scoring a hat-trick against Levante or whoever is the same as Harry Kane doing it against, I don't know, Borussia Mönchengladbach. But it doesn't have the same air of romanticism around it, which is why I think Kane gets disappointed. And he did it in the... He got 14 goals in the Champions League. Yeah, exactly. 14 goals in the Champions League. That assist for Diaz in the semi-final against PSG as well. On the other night as well was mad. That pass through was a joke. I mean, the ball on door has just gone to a different level since Ronaldo and Messi got involved.

1:43:35But do you know there is somebody in this room who finished above Ronaldo in the Ballon d 'Or listing? I won. Yeah. That's close. He was 20th, I was 19th in 2005, would you believe? Just make sure we keep that answer. Seamus, I'll finish with you. Who would you like to see in the Ballon d 'Or? I think just listen to everyone there. I was a bit like, could be any of them, really. And I wouldn't be surprised if Mbappe did win it. But I think watching Kane's all-round game, even last week... He took a goal, kicked his yesterday. Incredible. Night before. He did it for Spurs. He did it for Spurs, one winning goal.

1:44:15Oh, fuck it up! You're going to go for Kane? I'd say Kane, but I don't think Kane will win it, but I think he probably should. I think Mbappé could end up getting it. You think it'd be Mbappé, but you hope it's Kane? Yeah, I think Kane deserves it. Everything about him, isn't it? like how he is off the pitch how he is in interviews he's probably been the only one who's not talked himself up for winning it so it'll be nice to see him to see him win it I think the days of watching Cannavaro and defenders are going to be I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again will we like no yeah but Cain yeah yeah hopefully fingers crossed hope it goes well for Harry Boy tonight er right that's it that's it for today's episode of the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet catch you next time Thank you.