How Athletes Get Into the Top VC Funds | Ryan Nece, Next Legacy

26:04Turner Novak:When, how do I move? When am I going to run? How do I reposition myself based on how he just repositioned himself? like they're constantly thinking and it's like it's not easy like i mean i've never done it obviously but you know this it's you know you played hockey right and it's always like you hear the old you know you hear the the quote from wayne gretzky's don't pay where don't skate where the puck is skate where the puck is going right and well how do you know where it's going right and so well you know where it's going because you reflect on the past of what your experiences knowledges and situations that have put you in there you have to understand the the present moment and situational and understanding.

26:43And then you have to then forecast and have some ability to look into the future and understand where things are, what's happening. And so those three different perspectives, athletes are doing that constantly. And so to your point, that's something that a founder absolutely is doing constantly.

27:02Turner Novak:Yeah, I always reflect back on, because I used to just be really, really fast. That's all I was at in hockey and now I'm not that fast anymore. Right. So like, I'm like, man, if I was just like sinking as smart as I am now as a 35 year old, but could still skate as fast as I could when I was 17, like, man, I would be so good. Well, I think that's another premium in our industry is, is speed and in athletics speed is a premium. You know, they tell you, you can't train speed. You're either faster or you're not. And the, and, and what's amazing that I've been around and you know this too, you've been around these elite founders and lead investors, they're processing speed, right?

27:42And their ability to make quick decisions and make the right decisions with imperfect information. That is incredible. And that's something, those are signals that we look for. And when I'm trying to identify people that we want to be around.

27:58Turner Novak:I do want to talk to you about that, but I want to hit on this because I think it makes more sense to talk about now than later. So in venture capital investing, there's this thing called the power law, where the vast majority numbers are always different, but something like 90 % of the returns come from like a small subset, like 5-10 % of the companies or the funds. Is that similar to sports, you feel like? When you can build anything, Amplitude lets you know how to build the right thing. Use human language to get complex answers about your products. No more manually selecting events or building charts or dashboards just to ask.

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29:09Turner Novak:Connecting to the tools your team and customers rely on, letting agents take action with the right permissions, and keeping everything reliable and cost efficient once you're in production. Merge handles that all for you. It connects agents to thousands of tools, handles permissions and LLM routing, and lets teams move faster without building it all themselves. OpenAI, Dropbox, and Ramp all use Merge to move faster and build AI right. Visit merge.dev slash Turner to start building for free. That's merge.dev slash Turner to try Merge for free. Yeah, I mean, actually, Stanford just put out a study on venture returns.

29:48and it was exactly what you just said, that basically 90 % of the returns in venture over the last 10 years have come from 5 % of the venture fund. Like just a small number of elite managers that have generated that alpha that everybody's looking for. And if you really look at the odds of becoming a professional athlete, I mean, it is a very small number. I think roughly 25 ,000-ish plus or minus men have ever played in the NFL. And over half of them have ever played longer than three and a half years. So it looks like there's a lot of people playing professional sports, but it is still relative to the population.

30:30It is a power lie. It is an outlier. And then to do that consistently over and over at a high level, I wouldn't say even harder. And you think about it shows up, right? I think about Lewis Hamilton. For a long time, if you were going to bet on F1, Lewis Hamilton was going to be your driver. He was one or two every time. If you were betting on tennis for a long period of time, it was Novak. The guy just constantly found a way. Then it was Sampras. Even within the elite, there's still even power law of the dominating consistency that certain athletes have had over the rest of the others within their league.

31:19And that's to me when it's really special.

31:21Turner Novak:So it's really this, in that sense, if you're like an athlete, think about it. It's like when you're investing in founders, it's like finding the most elite person in the league, like who is the best player or the best team. And that's ultimately who you're trying to back in when you're investing in startups. Yeah, 100%. And I said Sampras and I really probably should have mentioned Federer because Federer is just, he is one of the goats for sure. But that is, that is at the end of the day, like, you know, this, there's just so many, I don't know, it's like 10 ,000 plus companies that are started every single year.

31:58But there's, it comes down to it. there's only around 10 to 20 that really are going to matter from one year to the next. And how do you actually get access and how do you find ways to do that? And if you're an athlete navigating this world to try to play in this game and play in this industry and play in the sandbox, I think the best thing that you can do is actually, you know, success leaves clues. Go and start to study and be a historian of this industry and understand the power law and understand why, where Sequoia ranks and where Union Square ranks and Andreessen and Amplify and all of these different firms that are out there and why they find ways to continue to perform at the highest level so that you can understand who you want to try to partner with.

32:43And then I'd start to study the iconic companies. Why are certain companies continuing to find ways to outperform. And you think about what Metta and Zuckerberg and what, but like the guy's just getting started. People forget the guy, he's still young. I mean, he's like barely 40, right? He's like, is he 43? I think he's, yeah, early 40s. You know, some people didn't even start their careers until then. I mean, he is, and so to find individuals that you're fortunate to be around somebody like that. And there are plenty of, I call them supernovas out there that are incredible, that if you can be around them and find ways to partner with them and work with them, that's where you're going to start to develop what I think is really needed in this game is the appropriate taste buds.

33:31I joke all the time growing up. If I went to Sizzler Turner growing up, man, I thought I hit the lotto. Having a Sizzler steak and salad bar, I was like, man, this is incredible. And that didn't happen often. But I just that's what I knew. Right. And then over the years, I might not be ranked quite as high as it used to be in terms of what my palate desires as a high quality steak, because I've been exposed to other other places to get to get something that's more desirable. And I think that's a lot of this game is you have to hone in and calibrate your taste buds that give you the ability to find and be around the most elite companies and people in this industry.

34:22Turner Novak:So I know you said you kind of did it through osmosis, joining your dad in these meetings. Usually recommend athletes when they're first getting into this, if they can't do that, right? Like a lot of people don't have that, that, that close proximity. What would you recommend if somebody, you know, somebody's listening and it's like, man, this sounds cool so far. I want to do this. Like, what should they do right now? Well, it's actually one of the reasons why we created a fellowship program because a lot of athletes would ask that question. We have a fellowship program where athletes can apply and they go through a week-long program to learn the nuances of venture.

34:55But really, it's to develop context and understanding of where should you be putting your energy and time and who should you be putting it with and who should you trust. And so, by all means, people can apply that way. I think the other way is, you know, you think about just the traditional ways, right? Going back to school. I mean, I think, you know, getting the opportunity to go back to business school or finishing your degree or going to business school, getting the opportunity, depending on what city you're living in, finding a way to get into the entrepreneurial hubs and the venture hubs within those cities, reading.

35:33There's tons of blogs. And then finding, hey, what are the best firms? And then who in those firms is maybe prolific in terms of putting out content. When you think about

35:50some of the folks that you should follow, Andreessen's got a ton of content. Union Square, Fred has a ton of content that's worth the read. And so finding, starting to collect clean, good data from high quality people is also a way to start to put you, I think, on a direction to becoming more and more curious about where you want to spend your time. So I think those off the top of my head would be great places for people to start. And then you have these conferences, right? You have TechCrunch and all these other areas where people are... I was always surprised. I used to nerd out. I go to CES every single year.

36:30I think CES is... If you're a gadget guy, to go and see and touch and feel hardware and technology of the future it was awesome i think i was always surprised that i didn't see more athletes there maybe because i was only the nerd doing it but those are places that you can spend time and start to be in find yourself into unique rooms one thing i think that's always surprising

36:57Turner Novak:to me is people like don't use the products before they invest right like you like i'm like that that blows my mind like you can just go try it like use it like anytime i'm talking to a founder where like whether it's like software they're making a product even if it's like some cyber security thing like i always try to like use it in some capacity because you might try the thing and it sucks and like if it doesn't work you can't make a business there and if it's an incredible product other things are probably good too right like you gotta at least try the product you gotta try it definitely i mean because it and the interesting thing is it's some of those simple things like i'm surprised how often an athlete or other they won't just google let me just google turner before i connect with them like let me just do a little bit of diligence or um you know reference checking before i get you know spend time with somebody same with a product use the dang product because if you don't like it chances are a lot of other people aren't going to like it too and so um maybe talking a little bit more about next legacy so what is what like what what is the firm?

38:02Turner Novak:Maybe we probably should have talked about a little bit earlier, but high level, what is it? You guys have a couple of different strategies. How do you describe it to people? Yeah. NextLegacy, our investment firm, we sit at really this very unique intersection of the world of the most elite venture capital firms and technology and philanthropists and athletes and iconic cultural luminaries. And I say all that because we really sit at this intersection to try to bring these groups together. We do that through our investment funds. We have three core strategies. We have a traditional fund-to-fund strategy that we're investors in some of the most iconic blue-chip access constrained managers.

38:40We have an emerging manager strategy that we've tried to identify these alpha-generating diverse managers that are raising Roman numerals one through three. And then we have a dedicated co-invest strategy that we use to invest alongside our top tier managers. And we try to find a way to bring a unique value proposition that's truly differentiated Turner. And so the ways that we've tried to do that is one, our flagship fund, we don't charge a carry, which is crazy in our industry. But the reason we don't do that is because if you see these posters behind us, a lot of our investors are philanthropists.

39:20And for everybody that's a part of that fund, They are directing their proceeds to a charitable cause, a DAF, an endowment, a foundation. We too, as GPs, give away all of our earnings as well in that fund to charitable causes. And so over the years, we've distributed back over$3 billion back to different organizations around the world that are making the world better. So very powerful, very proud of the work that we do there. And then at the same time, we also have this unique value proposition of these winners and champions and elite athletes from all sports and all walks of life that are part of our community.

39:59And so our ability to bring value to our GPs and our founders that we work with and leveraging the assets we have to, you know, go behind the scenes in the world of sports and behind the scenes can be anything of being, you know, being at the finals for the FIFA World Cup to, you know, getting a private conversation with a coach to navigate what he's looking for when he's trying to recruit an elite athlete. We're just constantly trying to find ways to take what we've learned in sports and that community of sports to push that towards our founders and GPs to bring value. So that's a lot of what we do.

40:39And we're really proud of the work that we've created here at NextLegacy.

40:43Turner Novak:How did you decide to, I mean, I think essentially like give away all the money you should be making? Like, there's just kind of most VCs listening to this would be like, you know, that's, that's insane. Like, so how did you decide to do that? Yeah, well, it's a great question. Legacy Ventures was started by a gentleman named Russ Hall in 99. And they had that model for their existence. And in 2020, I started Nextplay Capital in 2014. And in 2020, the two firms joined forces and Legacy joined Nextplay and brought that model and concept with them to continue to grow the work that we were doing as a firm.

41:34And so the credit goes to Russ and some of the original founders there, Legacy, of coming up with that unique model. We've continued to adopt that model because we think it's so powerful. because at the end of the day, when we're trying to do what we do and show up and work hard and pursue excellence, to know that we're doing it on behalf of some of the most amazing organizations that are trying to eradicate homelessness, to cure cancer, to find ways to support our Olympians, to finding ways to provide eyesight to kids across the continent of Africa. But man, we are so inspired by the people that we are stewards of their capital and work on behalf of.

42:21Man, it's what fills me and it's really my why. You know, when I get out of bed and we started our firm, I didn't know about being a venture capitalist. I didn't know how much money I was going to make or the ins and outs of actually starting a firm or what it took. All I knew is I wanted to meet a need. and I found a need that there were a lot of athletes and a lot of people that didn't have a seat at the table that wanted to be able to be in the room and be around the best of the best. And I felt like we could create something that would give athletes and philanthropists the opportunity to work and partner alongside the most iconic folks in this game.

42:57And if I could do that, man, that would bring me a lot of joy and fill my spirit. And that was something I could get out of bed for. And so thankfully, ignorance is bliss and didn't know everything that I was getting into. But man, no dull moments, but I'm very proud of the work that we do as an organization. And my why continues to fuel me on a daily basis.

43:20Turner Novak:On that note, maybe like the ignorance or not, was there anything that you messed up early on or like biggest mistakes when you first kind of started this? Yeah, I mean, all of it. It's the constant iteration of how you're pitching and who are you pitching? I think one of the things, especially even you're talking to LPs and you need an LP and LPs will just, some of them will string you along and constantly ask questions and continue to take information and then end up ultimately not doing anything. And so learning how to navigate, how to be disciplined with my time and respectful of other people's time so we can get to yeses and nos faster.

44:06finding the right people to get advice from. I've had to continue to learn that because again, people have different motivations of why they're trying to help you. I think one of my bigger mistakes early on was not spending enough time in the stuff that goes on behind the scenes as an investor when you're building a firm. And what I mean by that is you have to set up All your, you know, all your support with working with your legal and your compliance and your fund administrators and like making sure that you're in those weeds as much as you are, you know, searching for the next investment opportunity because that stuff matters.

44:48And we've had to unwind things and change things up to get it straightened out. And thankfully, you know, we continue to move forward. But, you know, those are things that probably could have saved us a lot of time and money. but those are you know you you you you learn along the way it's what that's the joy of also being building something from the scratch and being an entrepreneur which is why i also have you know i have i'm you know founder paranoia constantly you know like i i constantly realizing like like we got to push to be better and and need to make sure we're crossing our t's and dotting our i's and making sure that we're evolving and growing and let not letting competition all these things that come along with that founder paranoia.

45:31And I always call it this kind of MF territory, Turner. It's the delta between where you are and where you think you should be. And as a founder, you always think you need to be further along than where you are. And I got to look back. And this is the advice that you got to look back at where you came from and have gratitude and be grateful for the work that you got to where you are to help you, at least for me, help me console that MS territory in my mind of where I think we should be.

46:03Turner Novak:Where do you think you should be? Right now, when you think about that, there's this three to five-year gap or whatever that distance is. What ground are you trying to cover right now? Well, I think we have a pure mission, right? And our mission isn't achieved. And so first of all, you start there. It's why you have lofty missions. And so I think when we think about our ability to amplify the returns of our philanthropists and athletes to do good in the world. We've got a lot more athletes to cover and a lot more philanthropists that we need to help support them and their efforts to continue to grow the capital to make a difference in the world.

46:40I think the other thing is, you know, like anything, you have scoreboards. And so, you know, we always want to make sure that we're in the highest, we have the highest scores. That's from performance in terms of investing. That's from our LPs continuing to show up. That's making sure that we're continuing to provide an experience when people come into our office, when they interact with us, when they engage with us, that they come back to the word that I said at the very beginning. And that was really thoughtful. Those are the standards that we constantly have. And we're doing great. And I think we can continue to be better in a lot of areas.

47:19And I think we'll continue to grow our strategies as a firm and what we can offer to investors and making sure that we're putting in front of them the best products for the best environment or in the best environment as we look forward as a firm.

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48:13Turner Novak:Start growing your revenue faster with Monaco. Try it now at monaco.com. One of the things you mentioned was evolution of the pitch. I think was kind of how you phrased it. A lot of people don't realize if you have a VC firm, you have to go in and raise capital. Like it'd be awesome. You said you have 3.6 billion or 4 billion AUM. I'm sure it'd be great if that was all your money, but you got to go and raise different people. So how did that pitch kind of evolve? What was it like initially? Did you get pushback on, I don't know, athletes can't do this. This is a bad strategy. We don't like this because of this.

48:49Turner Novak:What was the feedback? You must have sat in some of my music. Yeah. I think a couple of things. One, because I'm unconventional and because I'm not institutional, my language, my delivery, my approach was probably more casual than others. And so I had to learn how to institutionalize the presentation more so that it could land in the ears of the people that are used to hearing more institutional presentations. And so I also had to learn how to ask the right questions. That's one of the things, It's one thing to talk. It's another thing to learn to have the other people talk in the room as well during presentations.

49:38Turner Novak:Was there a big one that you maybe missed out on that you're going back? You ask that every time? I ask this question almost every time. Turner, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you for your time. And but before we either get started or, you know, before we wrap up, you know, can you walk me through your process of what it takes to get to a yes? Just walk me through, like, who needs to be in that decision process, who needs to be a part of that and kind of what's your typical timeline? Like, it seems like a no brainer, but all of a sudden now you have information and data on how to think about that LP.

50:17And sometimes or the person you're talking to may not even be the right person. Like, oh, you're not the decision maker. You got to go talk to four other people before this actually is even going to get elevated to being, you know, to being greenlit. So learning that, I think, you know, learning sales. Like, you know, I feel like everybody should learn sales because in this game, you're constantly trying to share with people and sell what you're doing. and through that, Turner, I think part of it's developing an authentic narrative, something that's true to you, that's your story, that's differentiated.

50:57And that's really a powerful way to me to really connect with people through all the noise. Have I found of, hey, this is who we are. This is the approach that we've taken. Thankfully, now we have a track record that we can point to. But at the beginning, before the track record, a lot of people had to learn to trust me as a person. And to do that, I had to demonstrate for them the body of work of why other people have trusted. I had to mitigate their risk of feeling like they were going to be the first person to trust me. And so the more that you can help mitigate that for an LP, especially when you're raising your first fund, the better chances you're going to have of having that investor come in.

51:45Well, yeah.

51:45Turner Novak:And it's usually not like you meet someone and then they just give you$10 million at the end of the meeting. It's a long process. It is a long process. That's the other part. And I think part of that is realizing that. And so giving yourself that timeline of, hey, great, Turner, we had a great conversation, but in an hour's time, to your point, you're not giving me$10 million, but that means it's on me now to continue to stay engaged with you in a thoughtful way that's not annoying, that's constantly courting you along to hopefully that we establish a relationship to a point that there's trust and trust that you want to be a part of what we're doing and want to lean in.

52:28And the part that's interesting is GPs, because we're obviously LPs and investing in a lot of funds, sometimes GPs don't understand the dynamics that an LP is juggling, right? Portfolio construction, are they at the beginning of deploying out of a fund or at the end of deploying? All of those dynamics change how that LP is thinking about investing in your particular fund. And so the more that you can gather that information, the more you can have a better sense of how to approach working with that person or partnering with them.

53:03Turner Novak:And I know you guys do have the fund where you do a lot of emerging manager investing. How do you approach it? What's the general strategy for that? I know a lot of people are probably listening. Turner, you got to ask them about this. So yeah, what's the general, maybe a little bit more tackle, nuanced strategy of that fund? And maybe we can talk a little bit more about it. The Emerging Manager Fund was designed for us to take advantage of a long history of investing in emerging managers. We'd always done that a part of our core fund. We had what we called discovery checks where we would write smaller checks in emerging managers.

53:43And then hopefully that those emerging managers would graduate up so that we could write more core positions and be bigger parts of our flagship fund. And what we realized is a lot of our investors wanted exposure to these smaller micromanagers. Why do they want exposure? Well, because what we've learned, Turner, is in this industry, alpha has really been generated from managers kind of out of these two buckets. It's what they call a barbell effector. It's these blue chip iconic managers that have moats around them that have the ability to continue to attract and win the opportunity to invest in great founders.

54:24And then you have this other bucket of micro, smaller, alpha-generating managers that maybe have a particular expertise and niche focus. Maybe they have a differentiated network. Maybe they're connected to a university, but they've also been able to generate alpha. The challenging part is there's so many of them, right? I mean, I think we did diligence on 430 plus managers last year, like deep diligence. There's a ton of managers out there, and there's a lot more than the ones that we did diligence on. So to have the ability to know who to invest in and who's going to return capital, that's a lot of work for larger LPs to figure out.

55:05And so a lot of investors want exposure there, but they may not have the bandwidth, the time or the energy. Or the other challenges, many of them are larger LPs. And so to write a check into a$50 million fund, they're pretty prohibited from doing that because they're not going to write a check maybe smaller than$20 million. And they have rules that prevent them from being more than 10 % of a fund, per se. So LPs wanted exposure, to answer your question, to that group. They felt like we had a track record and a way of approaching to identify managers that could put meaningful points in the board that could continue to grow and scale their business.

55:44And so a couple of things. One, you want to look at somebody that can actually grow and scale a business. So what I said earlier, it's one thing to be an investor. It's another thing to do the work behind the scenes and the minutia of growing and building a team and doing what's needed to have a firm that's going to be around for more than just one vintage. So we spend a lot of time on that. We spend a lot of time that this community is small. And so excellent people want to hang out with excellent people. Generals want to hang out with generals. And what we've learned is you can start to get a pretty good sense from somebody.

56:20I like to say it's the, you know, who's in your starting five. Turner, if you said, hey, here are the five people that I like to invest with. Here are the five people that I spend time with. Here are the five places that I travel to. I'm going to start to get a pretty good sense of you and your community, your network and where you've spent time. And so we spend a lot of time trying to triangulate around people and their opportunity to have a chance to find ways into great transformational companies. And so there's a lot of different variables. And part of that is also realizing that we're using a lens of diversity to identify these contrarian thinkers that are complementary to our blue chip managers.

57:04But maybe they are in a geography that a lot of our blue chip managers are underexposed to, or maybe they traffic in networks and communities that, again, that they have an edge or an advantage over. And these are the things that I think as the world of AI continues to commoditize information and data, having differentiated networks, having a broad and deep community of really world-class people around you is edge. We talk a lot about this, I think I started talking about it like four years ago, but I said there's two forms of AI that are important. It's the AI, artificial intelligence that everybody's fascinated with and leaning into and we're all reaping the rewards from in our industry.

58:01But the other for us as a firm is authentic interaction. My authentic interaction with high quality people on a consistent basis before it gets into the internet and gets recorded and downloaded and transcribed, I now have edge. I have Turner and I have had a conversation where now we can decide to choose to act or make decisions based on before the rest of the world has that. That is really an important to me recipe. And so we're looking for people that have differentiated networks and have access to information that maybe others don't.

58:37Turner Novak:So how are you uncovering that? So it's like a first meeting with someone. is there like a go-to question or like process you try to hit on? I still, yeah, yeah. I still, I still think again, cause I come back to being a little unconventional and I'll probably, you know, as, as the young emerging managers that are listening to your podcast, I know you got a ton of people that listen. I'm going to get hit up on this stuff now. I'm giving away secret sauces. And so, but I mean, that's kind of the point of this. People listen. These are like the hardcore, they're doing research. I'm pretty, again, unconventional.

59:12And so I'm going to try to understand you as a person. I understand what your why is. I'm going to try to understand the way that you're going to approach this craft. And I'm going to try to give you a sense of when I think about iconic people in the industry and my barbell of what I think, you know, folks like Bill Gurley and Byron Dieter and um, Jim Getz and, and Aileen and these other people that I have deep respect for the way they've approached their craft. Those are the bars and, and how my taste buds have been calibrated. And so I got to recognize, is this, is this somebody that I got to spend time, more time with?

59:50And so, um, those are the things that I'm going to work on in a first meeting.

59:55Turner Novak:Is there anything that's tipped you over the edge? Like when you think about you met, I think you said 430 that you guys have done a ton of diligence on. I don't know how many of those you invested in. I'm assuming it's like single digit percent. What gets you? What is usually in that small percentage of people where you're like, we got to back these guys? That's what I love about our team. One of the secret sauces behind our team is also the diversity that sits in the room when we're making an investment. And so the RIC is filled with folks that have a different way of particular looking at a manager.

1:00:29And so when you bring the combination of how we all look at a manager, we feel like we come up with really great decisions together. And so the way that I may get excited about somebody might be different than others. But I will say some of the advice that I give to young emerging managers, and this is not just for us, but I do think that there's this rule of three and that if I, you know, had a conversation with Turner and, um, we had, we hit it off and got through, you know, an hour meeting. And then two days later, I saw you at a, at a, at a private dinner that, that you were a part of that, um, that I was invited to, that was with other people that I respected in the industry.

1:01:15And now how that's, that's the second touch point. And then all of a sudden, if there was somebody in the industry that I have deep respect for and admiration for pinged me within a certain period of time and said, hey, have you met Turner? I've really enjoyed working with him. I like him as a person, his way, you should get to know him. All of a sudden now my, my attention is up, right? Because I'm trying to use imperfect information and triangulating different data points to try to get to a decision in a short period of time of how I want to, allocate my time first and if I want to be able to dig in more and spend time with Turner.

1:01:52And so I think the power law of three or the three touch points is something that LPs, it resonates with LPs. And so if you have a way to...

1:02:09You can't really engineer it artificially, but if there's a way to authentically do that, I think that that lands with LPs. That's why warm handoffs still go a long ways. They really do. Getting some warm introductions and handoffs from people is a good thing.

1:02:28Turner Novak:sounds like rule three and then also the time box like it's not it's not like this happened three years apart it sounds like within a pretty short period of time where it's almost like everyone's talking about these guys like everyone's talking about her or him and i gotta you know i gotta meet them or get to know them more yeah back to your one of your questions about what you what i didn't know early on you know starting starting out and pitching to folks i didn't realize how much lps gossip you know lps are constantly gossiping especially during annual, you know, um, annual meeting season, cause they're interacting with each other at, at all the annual meetings and they're sharing notes.

1:03:05Hey, you turn, who'd you meet with? Who are you talking to? What? And you're, you're sharing information and tidbits. And so they reference check, Hey, have you talked to Turner about, about their phone? We are, we're looking into it. What are your thoughts? Because, you know, they've met those people and they use them as trusted sources and, and sounding boards to help validate what, what they're seeing or, or, or feeling. And so, um, the more that you can help get information out there in the whisper networks, the, the, the further that that's going to go. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point.

1:03:41Turner Novak:How do you, how do you operate the whisper networks effectively? Cause I can't, I can't be like, hey, Ryan, can you start a whisper secret about me? What's a good way to get people talking about you versus not? What makes you mention someone or when someone mentions to you, you actually remember it versus to the point of you can't really fake this stuff? Yeah. If I knew the exact kind of secret sauce to that, I probably would do it more myself because I think we even need to be better at helping people understand who we are more. And what I've learned is if you can be top of mind for people, and if you can be top of mind that, hey, I was talking to Turner.

1:04:29Oh, Turner, I know Turner. And so how you stay top of mind in a very noisy, busy world, I think is different for everybody. but your ability to, and this comes back to a philosophy that we operate here at our firm. It's a philosophy my family lives by. A giving hand is never empty. And the more you give, the more that you're going to come, it's going to come back to you. And the more that you can work with other elite people in the industry and help them, you're like, why am I telling, why am I sending a deal to Bill Gurley or sending him? I just believe it comes back. And the more that you find ways to do that on a consistent, continued basis that means that it's authentic and that you're really invested into the ecosystem, I feel like that goes a long, long ways.

1:05:23I actually am a big fan of Adam Grant. Adam, I think, is an incredible author and professor and person that you should follow. But he has a great book called Give and Take that I actually give out to almost all my athletes. And it is this reminder that in the short term, takers can win. You can win because you're a taker. You're doing something transactional. But in the long run, and venture is the long game, and I've had to remind myself all the time, that it's the givers that find ways to, to, uh, to succeed in the long run. So that's a philosophy that I, that we really live by.

1:06:02Turner Novak:What other philosophy that I, I think your mom taught you is like, you all want to pick the kids that get picked last or something like that. And I probably, I probably, probably butchered this, but that doesn't sound like a good strategy. Like if I'm in gym class, I'm like trying to pick the best kids for my team. Like there's probably a reason they're picked last. So what's the, what's the, the thinking around that? Yeah, my mom, it was, it was really a lesson that I learned about, about being able to make sure you're aware of others and, and making sure you see other people around you. And the lesson was because I came home one day from school and my mom, you know, like all parents ask you like, Hey, how was your day?

1:06:45What'd you do? and I started talking about my day and I was bragging about playing kickball and I was telling her about how great I was and kicking the ball over everybody's head and scoring all the points and she's like, oh, that's great. She's like, oh, how does it work? And I remember telling her like, hey, I'm the captain because I'm the best and then I pick the next best players and you build your team and then you win. And she goes, my mom was always still to this day, still really crafty with her questions. She goes, well, are there kids that don't get picked? And I'm like, yeah, of course, the ones that aren't any good, no one's picking them because you don't want, you know, she goes, well, if you're as good as you say you are, you should pick the kid that doesn't get picked first and then build your team.

1:07:27Because if you can win with them, then you're actually really good. And I took the bait because I didn't know what she was doing. And I remember the moment that I picked that kid and the way that it made me feel in my soul and spirit of seeing another human being seen and feeling seen and being lifted up. was incredible. And then it just, you know, that really kind of stuck with me in my mind that all of us have the ability, regardless of who we are, probably to look at sometimes and say, there's probably people that might be overlooked, might not be getting picked, that might be being passed by that just to say and acknowledge to that other human, like, hey, I see you.

1:08:09And if there's something I could do to be helpful or be supportive or just saying, hello can go a long, long ways. And so that's really the lesson that I took from Nat Turner. So yeah, my mom gets a lot of credit for that one.

1:08:22Turner Novak:I feel like there's a lot of times too, where somebody almost just needs, they need like that, like inspiration, the external positivity, like maybe the, you know, the kids always pick last. So he just like hates the thing because nobody wants them. And then like, I mean, I've had that personally where I think when I was in college, we were in the investment club and I thought it was awesome. I thought it was so much fun. Like you pick a stock, you buy it, it goes up, you make a bunch of money. Like this is so cool. And, um, I just got really into it. And the guy who was the president was graduating and I hadn't really thought that I would try to be the president of the club.

1:08:58Turner Novak:And one of my friends who's like older than me, he was graduating. He's like, oh, you gotta be the next president of the club. Like you gotta run. I was like, I don't know, like hadn't really thought about it. And he just kind of pushed me to do it. And then I ended up running for president and won the election of the club. And I always come back to that. Like that probably set off like a chain reaction in my career. And like, I almost didn't even think of doing that. And it was just like my friend who was like, you got to do this. Like you're the guy who should run. And I feel like there's so many cases where you just like somebody just needs that little push, that little external validation.

1:09:33Turner Novak:And like, literally it was like a 10 second comment on a field trip. We went to Chicago to go to Morningstar, this like stock research thing and we went to the fed and it was it was awesome it was fun and he's just like oh yeah you should run i was like oh yeah maybe i should it's it's it's a great it's a great point right and it's a you're making such a great point because we all regardless of how successful we are that like or what we do we probably have some imposter syndrome or insecurities or things that we're uncomfortable with or feel like we're inadequate about. And when another human gives you a little pep talk or word of encouragement or says, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, you should do that and gives you a glimpse of hope, that is game changing and can get you over the hump and can all of a sudden send you on a trajectory that you had no idea that you were going to go on.

1:10:27And so I agree. It's such a great reminder for all of us to just, you know, to be able to do that. because it doesn't take a lot. It just, it's just, you know, and being authentic with it. You know, your friend was probably like, yeah, of course, genuine and had conviction.

1:10:44Turner Novak:And you're like, oh, I believe this. I'm in. I can do it. And I feel like too, there's almost like everything in life, there's like some social element to it. And like going against the grain, whether it's like internally what you think or like what society says you should do. If there's just like that extra bump, You really just need a little bit. Because being the only person that goes against something or tries something new, if you just have a little bit of encouragement. So it's like you're investing in this company with the founder. Dude, you're doing this. You're trying to put data centers in space.

1:11:19Turner Novak:Sounds crazy, but I think it's a good idea. Go for it. That's just the push. 100%. Because to your point, when you're embarking on something where everybody else is like, that's kind of, I don't know about that one. You're an outlier in moving in that space. It's reassuring that you're not crazy when somebody says, no, you're on the right path. And I give this guy credit. There's a gentleman named Samir Kaji who runs a firm, a company now called Allocate. when we first got started at Nextplay, he was one of the first people like, I'm trying to do this. He became our banker. And he said, this is how you're going to do it.

1:11:59And I said, you're right. And I believed him. And it sent us on this trajectory. And having people around you, again, that are part of your starting five, I think about that a lot, that have a level of expertise that can speak into you and help you navigate the world is really important. And so, yeah, I love that reminder, Turner. I appreciate that.

1:12:25Turner Novak:And I have to ask you about this because my brothers are going to kill me that we don't talk about it. We talked a little bit earlier, but you're on the Lions, the 0-16 team. We grew up in Michigan. We grew up Lions fans. Oh, man, we're going back again. I mean, it's – Oh, no. Well, so, I mean, what was that season like, like just like going through that? Like I'm assuming it had to be hard on the team. Well, yes, it was extremely difficult. They fired our GM during the season. We had players that were on contract that they just sent home like, hey, don't show up anymore. Just go home. We'll keep paying you because you're not even worth being in the locker room anymore.

1:13:05Turner Novak:Geez, I didn't even know you could do that. Yeah, neither did I. We had, you know, I think we had four or five quarterbacks that year play and start. Yeah, I remember that. That was the year that I think the guy ran out the back of the end zone on the safety. Yeah, Dan Orlovsky. I think it's Dan Orlovsky. Yeah, who's a great guy and a great commentator is doing an excellent job on TV now. But, you know, we had to go get Dante Culpepper off the couch and come out of retirement to try to come and play quarterback for us. We were doing anything we could. And the challenging part in Detroit was it was an environment that the negative sentiments and environment and it compounded on itself.

1:13:51And what happened is you lost belief. And there were games where I remember us being up like 21-0 and we still would lose the game. It was like you were waiting for the shoe to drop or the mistake to happen. You really didn't have, it felt like the team didn't have belief that we were deserving to win. And I'll never forget that. I remember at some point saying, gosh, dang, there's no way that today can be worse than yesterday. And I think that started that mindset, that question in my mind kind of would start coming up in week three. And it happened every day since. Each day kind of got a little bit worse.

1:14:32And it just became unfortunate that we ended up not being very good and losing every game. And I learned a lot. And actually, that's where I learned the lesson about next play. And I give my father credit because I remember reaching out to him. And it was like week five or seven and just talking to him because I felt like there was plays that were happening. And I was the first time in my career where all of a sudden I was dwelling on the mistakes that I made and three, four plays were going by. And I just couldn't feel like I'd break the funk. And I felt like I was in a slump. And anyways, I remember asking him for his advice and him walking me through how in his career, the most important play in the game for him was the next play.

1:15:22It didn't matter whether he made a mistake or did something good. The next play was where his mindset was. And I remember asking him, starting to question Turner, like, hey, like, tell dad, when you made a mistake when you were playing, you know, like, tell me what you did wrong. and how you got over it. And he goes, what are you talking about? And I go, you know, like when you messed up. He goes, I never messed up. And I was like, oh my gosh, yeah, I know. This is why I don't ask you for advice. I'm like, good play or bad play? Like, just tell me, what did you do to move on? He's like, that's the whole point, Ryan.

1:15:52The play didn't exist anymore. It was over, it was gone, it's forgotten about. So it didn't happen in his mind. Like he literally still like, I'm in the next play. And so like having that mindset to be able to move on. And that's something not only that's why we ended up naming our firm initially Nextplay is because whether in sports or in business or in our personal lives, our ability to process the situation, good or bad, and move on is really important. And I've gotten myself out of a lot of bad situations with my wife and mistakes I've made because I've learned to try to process and forgive and say I'm sorry and say it was me and I messed up.

1:16:37Hopefully she listens so I can get some brownie points for this because I had the next play mindset, right, and just move on and get over that. And when you dwell too much in the rearview mirror, you forget about the front windshield that you're driving in the car and giving you a glimpse of where you're going. You got to look out ahead and not behind.

1:17:00Turner Novak:Well, I feel like any hard thing in life, whether it's playing a sport, starting a company, running a company, everyone sees the external headlines. But nobody sees under the hood of like, you had 100 people say no before one person said yes. or like you lost 100 games, you got injured six times before you made it to the NFL or you won the Super Bowl, like you go 0-16 or like, you know, you had losing seasons, you didn't get re-signed, you got traded because you had, you weren't good. Like all those things, like nobody's just successful at every single thing that they do. No, it's just this continuum, you know, and that's where, you know, I think Brady has talked about, it's not losing, it's learning, you know, You're just constantly in this state of learning and growing and iterating.

1:17:47And the hardest part is to maintain confidence and to maintain conviction, even when it's a sustained period of downtimes. Like, how do you keep having that conviction to keep going and moving forward? And there's a book by Napoleon Hill called The Three Feet From Gold that reminds me of a lot of people get they're so close to their goal and then they give up just before that opportunity. And usually that's probably at the hardest moment in the most difficult time and you tap out. And I will say that's some of the similarities between elite athletes and elite founders is this mental toughness and this unbelievable ability to have an incredible high pain tolerance and an incredible ability to feel very comfortable in the most uncomfortable environments.

1:18:47And that mental toughness and mindset allows them to keep moving forward and suspending disbelief and the reality of the situation because they keep hoping. They keep believing.

1:19:09Turner Novak:Is there in that book or maybe how you personally approach it, is there a trick or a tactic for doing that? It's just like the never stop believing. And also, how do you know, like, maybe this case specifically, like, it's not worth happening. You need to stop believing this and maybe try to try the new thing. I think in life, we go through tests to help strengthen our testimony. And the more tests we go through, the stronger our testimony is. And it's a testimony that we look back on that gives us the strength to push through the obstacles and challenges and adversities that we're facing in the present day.

1:19:49And so I think that's one trick is to remind yourself of what you have done, what you did go through, how you overcame. And I think sometimes we forget those things of maybe the five collar broken bones and like, how did I keep moving forward? And so you got to look back at that. Then the second, for me, I'm constantly trying to work on my mental toughness. And so people are, how do you do that? And I think for me, every month I pick a very small task. It might be writing a letter. It might be opening doors with the left hand. It might be brushing my teeth on one foot. But every day I have to do something.

1:20:32Are those all ones that you've done? Yeah, for an entire month. For an entire month. And it's really hard to do. Like, it's not hard. It's like, I can do brush my teeth and stand on my foot. It's the hard part is to remind yourself to do that every single day. And to, you know, when there's times where you're, maybe you're late from, you just want to get in the bed or whatever. it may be, there's a distraction, that's when you got to still stay committed. And so that's ways that I kind of try to at least play with my mind and know that there are going to be moments in my business and in my career and in life where things are going to get really hard and uncomfortable.

1:21:18And it'd be easy for me to be like, I'm out. But that's hopefully I can remind myself that If we stick with it, we can get to the other side.

1:21:28Turner Novak:I wanted to ask you about this. When you sold your company to Fox, I think you were like an analyst for Fox for a little bit. It seems like maybe you did or didn't like it. So what all did you do? And what is that like being an analyst for the sports network? Oh, yeah. You did like it. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it was covering sports. I was getting a chance to, you know, I was a color analyst and got a chance to sit in the booth. And Craig is covering the games and commentating. And I did sideline. And then I did studio work and was in the studio and, you know, pregame and postgame shows, halftime shows.

1:22:09So I got a chance to do a little bit of all of it. And Jacob Ullman at Fox, I give him a shout out because Jacob gave me a lot of love and gave me the opportunity to go and do that. And really enjoyed it. And honestly, you talk about having some anxiety and stress and imposter syndrome. Right before the camera turns on and goes live, you got all these thoughts going through your mind. And man, I was always so nervous. And once the camera would go live, you'd lock in. And you realize there is no turning back now. There is no do-overs. Let's run that one back. You just got to stay the course. And so I learned a lot about presenting and talking through those experiences.

1:23:00Turner Novak:Do you have to watch the game differently? Are you just like... Because you kind of have to entertain people that are watching in a way. Yeah, I think what it gave me a deep appreciation for is, again, as a player, you have a certain perspective that you show up to the stadium, you get your uniform on, you do your warm-ups, you're ready, and it's great. The amount of production and the amount of effort that goes on behind the scenes to bring a game live to television is crazy. And I wish I would have known that more as a player because I would have went and shook every single person's hand, high-fived them, and gave them the love.

1:23:38They're there, you know, two days in advance, the camera crew setting up to get the right camera angles, getting the truck set up. The crews get there hours and hours before the game to make sure everything's set up to do the rehearsals. And so all of that is incredible. And then when you're watching the game, to your point, you're talking about the game, but you realize that not everybody has the same expertise you have. So, you know, talking at a detailed level about the intricacies of the game probably isn't that fascinating to 90 % of people when they just want to know, like, was it a good play or a bad play?

1:24:20And so, you know, one, being able to talk about, hey, what happened in a very easy and concise way. And then also being able to give color on, hey, yeah, Turner. Well, you know, the reason that Turner is so good at this podcasting is because it comes from his background and where he lives in Ann Arbor. It's an environment that gives him solitude and allows him to reflect. And he's a reader. And that's the reason why he can show up and does his job. You give some context and now all of a sudden it elevates who that player is and it makes that person more human. And that's the part that I really loved was getting those backstories and learning those nuances about a player and you can share that with the audience.

1:25:05Turner Novak:To that point about the podcast, when you are listening to a podcast, I'm listening to you say that, I just sit and wait for you to say the next thing. versus when you're the one sitting on the other side like i have to say something interesting now to like you know i can't like i can't like zone out it's like you're not just going on autopilot you have to like engage in a conversation you gotta wait a minute i gotta ask a question i gotta what's my next question i gotta be ready yeah that's the hardest part about doing the interviews well and also the hardest part is when you're when you're like talking through this live and i'm like okay do i keep talking about this thing do i have i have like a couple questions that i could go to next which one do i jump to do i tie back something he said earlier how do i make it interesting like if i'm going to change topics like how do i kind of bridge from like you know sports to investing to the lesson you learn from your mom like i personally actually did want to ask you about like what it's like to commentate a game because like it is like to me that's kind of interesting well i think that's a great point too one of the things you learn is you all of a sudden you're talking about, you know, the offense and why it's so, you know, impressive.

1:26:16And you built up the show in advance of the quarterback's amazing. The receiver's amazing. And then all of a sudden, none of that happens. Like the quarterback's a dud, the receiver's dropping all kinds of balls. And now you got to start to shift the arc of the story and your narrative about that team in a way that you're tying things together. And also where it doesn't make you look like an idiot too. You're like, wait a minute, you just told us at the beginning, This offense is supposed to be amazing and it doesn't look that way. And so those are the things that I've learned. Again, doing it live is easier said than done.

1:26:50But you're right. When you're doing interviews, to tie things together and to direct the conversation in a way that all of your audience, why you have such a great audience is people have learned to listen to you of how you navigate these conversations and keep everybody on their toes and tying things together.

1:27:10Turner Novak:So when you're, this may be a question back to like playing. So when you're playing the game and it's like not going how you think, right? Like you have a game plan of like, we know these guys love to do play action or something. Like we know they have this and they just like, don't do it. Like, how do you, how does the, how do the adjustments usually happen? Like, are the coaches like scrambling, like trying to like motion things, like say things to you, like, can you only adjust at between quarters? Like, how does that usually go? No, that's a good question. That's the amazing part is the amount of information that you're taking in in a very short period of time to make very quick decisions.

1:27:52And so as a player, you're getting information from your sideline, right? And from your coaches, you're getting information from the other players. Hey, what are you saying? What are you doing? You're getting information from the offense, or for me, because I was defense, you're getting information from the offense. What formation are they in? What players are in the game right now? You're getting information about the period of time of what you're in. Is it the third quarter? Is it the fourth quarter? Are we up big? Are we behind? all of those variables help you make a decision on your ability to anticipate what's going to happen next so you can try to prevent that offense from advancing the football and so you're taking in all those variables you know in a very short period of time to to make those decisions and i'll never forget turner um this was the first year that i'm starting on this on this defense And, again, I'm next to Warren Sapp and Derek Brooks and John.

1:28:56I mean, you've got these guys, all these guys. And I'm like, I'm starting, baby. This is amazing. And we're playing the Carolina Panthers. And this defense was known. It's called the Tampa 2 defense, which was this very unique defense that Monty Kiffin and Tony Dungy came up with. And it was unique in that this typical defense historically wasn't good for stopping the run. But for one reason or another, because of the players, we had stopped the run and didn't allow teams to run the ball very good on us. Well, we're playing the Carolina Panthers and Steven Davis, and they came out and their offense came out in a very basic formation.

1:29:43and I'm lined up and all of a sudden I see the play. I know exactly what's going to happen. And I see Steven Davis get the handoff and I go, I know where he's going. I know exactly what's going to happen, baby. This is going to be awesome. And I take off and I vacated my responsibility in the gap that I was supposed to be in as a linebacker because I want to go make a play and make a highlight. Well, as soon as I put my foot in the ground to get outside to where Steven Davis was going to go, So Stephen Davis put his foot in the ground, made a cut into the gap that I voided and took off down the field.

1:30:16And next thing I know, we're all chasing Stephen Davis. And I'm hearing Warren Sapp cussing me out. Ryan Neese, you blah, blah, blah. This is as we're running down to chase him. And I said, this is incredible that one, I'm going to get cussed out and I'm so embarrassed that I didn't do my job. Two, how the heck does Warren know that it was me that was the guy that wasn't in his gap? That's how detailed he was, that everybody in the team knew during a play. Think about it. You watch a play, how does anyone know that? That's how detailed he was to understanding what was going on. So really incredible.

1:30:57Turner Novak:Yeah, that's insane because he knows the play memorized in his head. He knows where the guy got through. He knows whose fault it was. Yes, exactly. It was mine. It was mine. I had to own it. On that note of maybe top athletes, do you have a favorite athlete of all time? Maybe that you've admired, respected, learned from? Yes. The answer is yes. And it would be easy for me to say my father. And a lot of people would say, I'm crazy if I don't say him. But actually, it was Jerry Rice. And I think about Jerry Rice because he truly is, I think, the greatest wide receiver, greatest offensive player of all time, the GOAT.

1:31:37But, you know, Jerry had very humble beginnings and developed a work ethic that was unlike anybody else that had ever played sport. And I knew my father had incredibly high standards of the way he worked and pursued his craft. And he always would talk about how Jerry, you know, superseded his own work ethic in some ways. And so getting a chance to know Jerry and learn about all the things he did away from the game and then to see the way that he played the game and how all that hard work showed up and made him incredible. I just had just always a deep appreciation for him and still do. Just, yeah, he's such a special human.

1:32:23Turner Novak:So what did you do? Like what were some of the things that really stood out? at practice and again this is this practice and so guys you know catch a ball and they might run a few yards he one he wouldn't just catch a ball he would catch the ball perfectly and he wouldn't run just a few yards he would run all the way down to the end zone and score a touchdown every time every time. I mean, this is, you know, I don't know, 30, 40 plus catches at practice at least. And, and he wouldn't just like, oh, I'm going to just jog it down. He would sprint. And every time there's, you know, anytime he saw a line on the ground, he would do this little cha-cha with his foot, you know, like in between plays.

1:33:10Anytime you do like a little cha-cha with his feet over the line just to constantly work on his footwork. He would go run these hills here in the peninsula. And he would ask people, hey, come work out with me. And everybody that would work out with him would tap out. And he would just keep going. And he wouldn't just keep going for like, oh, I ran for like an extra five or 10 minutes. He'd be gone for like the rest of the day, just constantly working. I mean, just an incredible stamina and drive and mental toughness and endurance. And so just those are some examples. I'm like, man, unbelievable.

1:33:48Turner Novak:Well, that's like an example of like you catch a slant in a game. Do you just stop because you caught it? Like that's the end of the play. Or do you keep running and try to score every play? You should be trying to get a touchdown every single play. It's a mindset. It really is. This idea of kind of, I talked about this word of being thoughtful. he was so thoughtful about how he wanted who he wanted to be and how he wanted to show up as an athlete that he was willing to have the mindset that every time i touch the ball i'm gonna score and i'm gonna i'm gonna practice that does he does he still have records like wasn't it like most receptions in a career or is it most yards in a season or something like that i think most yards in a season, most yards in a career, most receptions in a career as well.

1:34:43Yeah, it's up there. He's got a lot of the big ones, maybe most touchdowns too for receiver.

1:34:49Turner Novak:He's got all three. I just looked it up. Most career receptions, most yards, and most touchdowns. Maybe Google's lying on this because I guess the AI stuff kind of hallucinates a bit, But it looks like he has also this is for career. It looks like regular season, but also postseason most receptions, yards and touchdowns in the postseason. Yeah, it's a peak peak performance. I feel like indeed. Do you have a favorite like founder or CEO or business that you've or like historical figure that you've learned the most from or get the most inspiration from kind of, you know, recent from history? Anything's fair game.

1:35:27um i mean it's kind of an it's like these are two different individuals um that i've i've always admired and um i learned a lot from um one abraham lincoln and he's not necessarily a founder i consider him a founder but i think about his humble beginnings and again his path to getting to where he was and how he led. And there's this great book called Team of Rivals that is about Abraham Lincoln and what he did after he was elected to fill his cabinet with his rivals because he felt he needed to lead a United States. He needed to have all the perspectives in the room. And I always admired his career and some of the decisions that he made.

1:36:17The other is from a more business is not necessarily the famous is my grandfather. My grandfather ran five restaurants that he helped start. And he was the one that taught me about customer service. He was the one that made me pick up a penny. Anytime I saw a penny on the ground, he was the one that made me, you know, pick up all the trash at the restaurant and clean the bathrooms and do all the little things and all the attention to detail to learn the business, but to learn hard work. My grandfather was paid for everything in cash. He didn't believe in credit and borrow. He had certain disciplines that gave him the ability to, in my mind, to live a successful life.

1:37:05He passed away at a young age, but I learned a lot from him and very simple, sound disciplined beliefs and running a sound business. And so, and it started with just doing the right things and starting with like just picking up trash. We all just, you know, we all walk over a piece of trash and somebody else would pick that up. He would pick it up.

1:37:33Turner Novak:Well, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, thank you for having me, buddy. I appreciate it. I know we covered a lot. And thank you for listening. Thanks again to this episode's sponsors, Numeral, Flex, Amplitude, Merge, and Monaco. If you enjoyed this, please like, comment, subscribe, and share it with a friend who still tells everyone they've got a guy. Check out the back catalog of over 100 episodes with investors like Gary Tan, Alad Gil, and Hans Swildens at Industry Ventures and founders of companies like Robinhood, Sweetgreen, and Mercury. Tune in over the next few weeks for conversations with Ron Gabrisco, who joined Databricks as CRO with less than 1 million in ARR It takes us inside how they scaled it to a$188 billion company run rating at over$7 billion in revenue, Jeff Morris Jr.

1:38:19Turner Novak:at Chapter One. If you don't want to miss any of these, subscribe to my newsletter, The Split, linked in the description. Get each episode plus a transcript emailed directly to your inbox every week. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.

1:38:40Thank you.