How Companies Are Quietly Robbing You! With Lindsay Owens

25:27They only adjust it at night when the store is closed so that shoppers won't experience what you just described, this idea that you and I come in. And, you know, like I get stopped at a red light and you don't. And all of a sudden your basket of groceries is$20 less than me. I mean, that feels really like vexing just the idea that it is so out of your control. Right. Just like by mere minutes you missed a deal and I got screwed. Right. So, you know, doing something overnight, I think, is one way to avoid that. We also know there have been proposals for, you know, suggesting that when we do use dynamic pricing technologies, we do them in a really transparent way.

26:06So we only adjust the price once a day and every store does it at 6 a.m. And then for the next 24 hours, the stores have to compete against each other based on who put the lowest price up at 6 a.m. So I think there's a whole host of ways we could see this going that maybe is less frustrating. But yes, I think the possibility for pricing to shift at a moment's notice is real. And I mean, I think that even weirder possibility is that the price changes like while you are standing in front of the shelf, right? You're sort of choosing between the Campbell's soup and the Rouse soup and all of a sudden the Campbell's price ticks up and you take the Rouse or something, right?

26:43So it feels like you're in a sort of perverted, nightmarish game of the price is right or something and Bob Barker is like behind the refrigerator door with a cigar just kind of like messing around with the prices, right? it is a really scary thought yeah it is and it makes me think of a couple and another like funny scenario with that is like what if you pick up the item the price is one thing and by the time you get to the register it's already shifted by the time you kind of are starting to check out i think that's another interesting part of the dynamic and it also makes me think about like i live in florida for example so here when we have hurricanes coming people have a mad scramble towards food and towards water and those types of things it reminds me of also like covid we had some weird toilet paper raid for some reason that the whole country kind of went after toilet paper and They could dynamically price some of that stuff, and that stuff could be really expensive, and people just kind of panic buy in some of these situations.

27:33And so it's a very interesting thing to kind of see what is going to happen going forward with some of this stuff. What are some of the regulations going to be, or how are stores going to make sure that people don't just freak out or get frustrated based on some of these prices changing? I think that's going to be a very interesting thing to watch. So how does Walmart kind of justify some of these new technologies? And is this something that they're using right now? Are they already using dynamic pricing on some of their shelves right now? Yeah, look, we don't know a ton about what's happening under the hood at Walmart, right?

28:03We're piecing this together from public announcements, from our analysis of their patent applications and the patents that they've been granted. And we also listen really closely in on their earnings calls, right? And often, you know, CEOs tend to be a little too loose-lipped on earnings calls, I think, for their own good. They're often sort of boasting to investors and shareholders because, you know, they like to juice their stock price on earnings calls because their compensation is often tied to the stock price. But then sometimes they say things that consumers aren't so excited about. We were listening in on the most recent earnings call at Walmart and they were really crowing about how much revenue Sparky is driving.

28:48Sparky is the new kind of AI bot embedded in the Walmart website. an app where you can ask Sparky questions. And, you know, it sounds like Sparky is getting really good at closing deals and making sure you check out with everything in your cart, right? And so they're saying, you know, 30%, 35 % boost in revenue for shoppers using Sparky compared to shoppers who are not using Sparky, for example, right? But look, you know, we don't know exactly what they're doing. But when we study these patents, you know, look, they are building a machinery to collect legions of consumer data. And they also have a data side, just like Kroger, that is very lucrative.

29:29I think it's called Scintilla is their data arm at Walmart. And they're collecting data from browsers on walmart.com and in the in-store app. They're collecting data about what you put in your cart and don't purchase, what you hover on and don't click on, what you buy together at the same time. People who buy X also buy Y, right? All of those things. They have your geolocation because when you're logged in in an app, you're often, you know, they're often tracking your location. Similarly, your IP address when you log in on the website. All of that is being used. They're saying in some of the patents that it's being used to predict, you know, sort of demand, like how much they should be using it for basically supply chain management, right?

30:16How much they should be stocking for any given item. But it's not hard to see a world in which that will be ported over and used for pricing. They're also saying right now that they're primarily using it for personalized offers or discounts. This is really interesting because it's something that companies, when they sort of get caught in the surveillance pricing, you know, when consumers catch them doing surveillance pricing, they often say, oh, it's just going to be for discounts. Or when they are doing like when Wendy's rolled out electronic shelf menu boards at the drive through, they said, oh, we're just going to do discounts.

30:50But, you know, the truth is, like, if you get a discount and I don't, I got charged more than you. that's price discrimination, right? That's surveillance pricing. And if they're using that information to say, hey, I think she's a sure thing. Let's make sure we don't send her a discount. And you're offered a discount. We're paying different amounts. And so there really is kind of a distinction without a difference here, whether or not they're using the surveillance pricing for discounts or for up charges. And the truth is anyone who's using surveillance pricing for discounts is probably mere minutes away from flipping the algorithm in reverse and seeing what they can capture on the upcharge side as well.

31:30So this is what we know they're up to. This is what they're applying for patents for. And, you know, the other thing I'll say that these patents suggest is that they're getting they're spending a lot of time on building new technologies for pricing. Right. And this is a big book of business for the company. And, you know, they're not just spending time designing these systems. they're patenting them. They're protecting their intellectual property, which to me suggests that they see that it can be quite lucrative for them. Exactly. And it's just one of those areas where, you know, you have one bad quarter or something like that.

32:04And this is an easy switch to flip on where you can have that dynamic price and increase revenue dramatically. So I think it's a huge, huge thing that we see looming overhead for sure. And I think it's one of those areas that we just got to keep thinking through. Is there anything based on some of the research you've done or what you've seen thus far that you think consumers can do to avoid being ripped off by some of this dynamic pricing? Or is this just one of those things that our hands are kind of tied and we just can't really shop at that location if we don't want to be dealing with dynamic pricing?

32:30Yeah, I think there are three things. The first thing I'll say, I always say when I get this question, and it's not meant to be a punt, but from the bottom of my heart, I do not believe that it should be each consumer's job to bob and weave and duck and dodge and figure out how to beat the machine to not get ripped off. I think markets work better when they are fair and honest, when prices are transparent and predictable. It allows for comparison shopping. It keeps prices competitive. It allows for budgeting. And I think lawmakers should step in and kick this shit to the curb before it gets any more widespread.

33:05The second thing I'll say is one important thing consumers can do is blow the whistle. These companies do respond to consumer backlash, And we have seen a number of times over the last few years when companies got caught engaging in these practices and consumers balked, they rolled these practices back or put them back on the shelf. And throughout history, consumers have actually been a really good bulwark against some of the worst excessives of corporate pricing practices. And I'll give you my favorite example, which is in the 1990s, the CEO of Coke, the Coca-Cola company, his name was Doug Avestor at the time, gave an interview to a Brazilian news outlet in which he said Coke was piloting installing thermometers on vending machines so they could hike prices of Cokes on hot days.

33:56And this is before things went viral on TikTok. And still, it was the shot heard around the world. It was on the front page of every major newspaper from Honolulu to Philadelphia to the Wall Street Journal, not exactly a consumer paper, right? It's really usually on the side of business saying, this is outrageous. I can't believe this happened. And Pepsi weighed in and said, we would never do that. We're in the business of quenching thirst, not exploiting it. And Coke had to very quickly walk back their plans. Oh, we were just, it was just a hypothetical. We're not actually working on this. We would never do this.

34:37Right. So I do really think shows like this, people who pay attention to shows like this, who weigh in on issues like this, that is just actually a really important part of the process. Like in the absence of laws in the space which we need, that's a good option. So short of calling your lawmaker, what can you do? Offer two kind of tips. Again, I wish that you didn't have to do this, but here we are. The first is I would say just kind of update how you think about what it means to comparison shop. So it used to be that when you comparison shop, you picked out something you wanted like a TV and you looked at store A and store B.

35:18You compare it across stores or you compare two TV types. Now you also have to comparison shop sort of within stores. So look at how much it costs in a brick and mortar store. Look at how much it costs on the website. Look at how much it costs on the third party website. Look at how much of it costs if you log into your app and purchase it. Ask your husband to log in and see if he gets a better price, right? So I think just sort of updating your model of comparison shopping is one good option. And another good option is kind of, you know, they figure out what you're willing to pay by experimenting on you.

35:53You know, one option you have is to try to experiment a little bit on them, right? You know, get a few friends in a room before you order an Uber, figure out who gets the lowest price, go with them, right? So there are sort of, I think, ways to try to at least get a little bit better data yourself about where better pricing might be. And then look, you know, you can try all of the things that you mentioned. You can try incognito mode. You can try, you know, creating a kind of dummy account and coming into a shopping scenario fresh, right? So you don't have, so there's not sort of a paper trail and, you know, you duck, different types of browsers that offer more protection, but it's really tough out there for consumers and I don't think it should be.

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41:33that over time, we just this muscle, we just get used to this, like we get used to dynamic pricing, and all of a sudden, this becomes a way of life, and that we're all standing here. So this is why I think it's really important to spread this message now, is as this is currently happening, we kind of have to, you know, make our voices be heard early on in this process. Otherwise, everyone's just going to kind of get used to this. And we may just be, you know, in this new world of dynamic pricing that we have to kind of figure out how to navigate through. And I completely agree with you. I feel as though markets who have fair pricing are transparent about that pricing.

42:04And I think this is something where we really do have to think through this process and make sure we make our voices heard. So I think it's really, really important. And an example, another thing we were talking about earlier was Instacart and how Instacart was changing prices for other people. And they had this dynamic pricing where some people were paying over 1200 bucks more in a given year than other folks who were ordering through Instacart. And so if folks are kind of quietly going through this process, they're quietly being bled through every single purchase, is there any way that they can calculate what the difference is?

42:36Or is this just something that we have to kind of continue to see what happens first? Yeah, look, I will say one of my biggest frustrations, well, I have two big frustrations about this type of pricing, aside from the obvious, You getting ripped off, you getting spied on, that's ridiculous. But I have two additional concerns. One is bargain shoppers are good for the economy, right? They play a really important role in keeping businesses honest, in keeping prices competitive. And so when we can't comparison shop, and in particular, when the army of people who are extra good and extra focused on comparison shopping can't maneuver and can't do their thing, we all lose, right?

43:20Because the mechanisms for keeping pricing competitive fall away. The other thing that's really frustrating, which I think gets to your question here, is not having posted prices, predictable prices, stable prices, undermines our ability to budget. And look, you know, it is one thing to not know how much income you're bringing in in a given month. A lot of us are lucky enough to have a salary or a guaranteed number of hours. We have some sense of how much income we're likely to bring in or minimum amount of income we're likely to bring in month to month. But increasingly, it is very difficult to discern how much money you're going to have to spend, how much money is going to go out month to month when prices are fluctuating.

44:03Obviously, inflation played a role here. But now dynamic pricing, surveillance pricing has sort of upped the level of complexity and such that you can't actually know what you're likely to spend on something as basic as groceries from one week to the next. How can you budget? How can you know if you're going to bring in enough money to cover your outlays if you don't know how much something is going to cost from one week to the next? Agreed. I think that's the most difficult part about this is it's very hard to kind of, hey, you set up this grocery budget ahead of time and you're trying to make sure that you are doing the right things with that.

44:37Then all of a sudden the prices shift and your budget gets all out of whack. I mean, it's very difficult for consumers to kind of navigate some of this stuff. And so I think you're completely right. It's one of those things that we're going to have to kind of see what happens here and create some sort of voice, some sort of fair pricing model that we're talking about here. And I think, you know, we've talked through some of these companies and some of the things that they were doing. One of the interesting things that I saw also was that Uber did things like they raised prices on folks who had low battery and Orbitz raised prices on hotels for people who, you know, had MacBooks.

45:08So what are some of the data points I guess some of these companies are looking for? Is there a through line here? Is there something that they're actually looking for? Or is it just, hey, MacBooks cost more than a Windows PC. And so overall, they're just going to charge more because they know that person may have more disposable income than someone who doesn't. Is that kind of what they're looking at? Yeah, I think of this as happening in kind of three ways. The first wave was the sort of old school surveillance data, right? So they were looking at things like your zip code and using that as a proxy for how much income you might have.

45:41Looking at things like what kind of computer you had, if you're a Mac or PC user, using that as a proxy for how wealthy you are or how price sensitive you are. Then over time, now consumers can or companies can collect, you know, real data about your spending purchases. Right. You log in using a loyalty program. They know exactly what you'd like to buy every week, what kind of cereal you buy, things like that. Or they buy third party data that is specifically pegged to you as a consumer. So they know a lot about your purchase history. They're less reliant on these sort of big proxies like zip code and getting more and more granular to you particularly.

46:19But all of that data is behavioral, right? It is proxies for your likely future shopping based on your past shopping or things that we know about you demographically. Now we're entering this kind of third wave or sort of third set of data that is, I think, the creepiest and the scariest, which is this idea. And this gets back to our point about our good friend Sparky. This idea that now, because of conversational LLMs and chatbots, instead of just relying on behavioral data about you, they can just ask you what you want, right? And then use your answer in their price setting. Whether you give that freely within an app like Walmart and Sparky or whether you're, you know, a big part of the AI race is how to monetize AI.

47:10and shopping and commerce will be a big part of that. And we know Google earlier this year announced their universal commerce protocol for shopping in Gemini and they're planning to try to be the first mover and the big mover in the commerce setting. So the idea would be you would fire up Gemini and you would ask your chatbot to go shopping for you basically. That's a place where they can ask you quite a few questions about how much you really need to buy something, what your intentions are and things like that. So we have kind of crude kind of guesstimate behavioral data. We have really fine grained behavioral data because we're tracking you closely.

47:45And now we actually have data on your intentions potentially because we can just, you know, technologies can just ask you what you want and then exploit that. It kind of reminds me of like a way more advanced, you know, process where like if you go into a car dealership to buy a car, what is the first thing that the car salesman asks is they ask, hey, how much can you afford every single month to pay for this car? And if you give them that information, you are already losing the battle of this negotiation, usually when you're having that conversation. And it kind of reminds me of that, like when you're talking to these LLMs and having these conversations, it's going to be one of those things where you got to kind of be very cautious about how you're answering some of this stuff if you do go that route.

48:23Because it is one of those things, if you give too much information, they could take you down a rabbit hole that is the wrong direction that you want to go in, which I think is very interesting. Who gets hurt the most in these situations? You know, I think about folks who are lower income, who are just trying to get by. Is this type of pricing sensitivity, does this kind of try to squeeze every single dollar out of folks like that? Or who do you think, maybe in your opinion, would get hurt the most by some of this pricing? Yeah, I mean, look, I think there is this kind of nice fantasy that price discrimination in its purest form could have a sort of Robin Hood effect, right?

48:59You can overcharge the, you know, the rich asshole who always flies first class and use it to subsidize the, you know, kids who are really wanting to go on spring break, right? You know, who don't have any disposable income, right? But, you know, in my experience, the American economy doesn't really work that way. They're sort of end up being a lot more kind of robber barons than Robin Hoods, right? Right. And the truth is often, as we know from the credit market, you know, the poor pay more in part because they're desperate. Right. So they have to take on credit at usurious interest rates or, you know, they they they shop week to week.

49:46Right. So they don't have the opportunity to, you know, they they only they only can afford to buy food for one week. And so the next week they have to buy food. They can't wait if the price has gone up. Right. I got to buy food again. Right. So I think, you know, there there's a nice kind of fantasy about, you know, overcharging people who are less price sensitive. And surely that will absolutely happen. People who are not price sensitive. If these algorithms are working well, you'll get hosed. But I don't know that, you know, poor people will always benefit because I do think, you know, one thing that these algorithms will be able to take advantage of is desperation.

50:23Right. How much you need something. And, you know, this takes us back to this JetBlue example where this guy was really frustrated that the price had had skyrocketed$200 overnight, but he was desperate because he's going to a funeral. And so it seems like he would pay it. Right. And as they know more and more about how much you need to buy something, that will factor in as well. Yeah. And so you've been kind of fighting, you know, all of this at the policy level for years. And while we're kind of thinking through and waiting for regulation, is there anything that the individual can do to kind of help some of the things that you're doing right now?

50:57Or is there anything is this kind of waiting for some of these policies to go through? There are some amazing state efforts happening across the country. New York State is on the verge of passing a ban on surveillance pricing. They already passed the nation's first disclosure law requiring companies to tell you if they're using if the price that they give you was set by an algorithm using your data. Colorado is on the precipice of signing into law legislation to ban surveillance pricing. There's some worry that the governor will veto it. So I think if you're living in Colorado, letting the governor know that this is something you support, good idea.

51:41But yeah, there are there are movements afoot in Hawaii, in California, in Maryland, in Tennessee, you know, really Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, really across the country. And so I think asking your electeds at the local level to move on legislation like this is actually, I think, a great place for folks to start. Yeah, I love that. And I think that's one thing. Again, we kind of have to speak up early, I think, in terms of making some of these shifts so that we can get ahead of this before it gets worse and worse and worse. And really, I think that's very important. Now, you've taken on some big companies.

52:17You've taken on companies like Delta and Hertz and FIFA and Google. Are there any of those that have been kind of the hardest to crack going forward? Or is this one of those things where each one has their own individual difficulties that you have to kind of work through? Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I do think consumer backlash is the tool that is most effective at bringing these companies to their heel. So when Delta got caught last summer bragging about their relationship with Fetcher, this is really artificial intelligence company that was helping them jack up Delta prices. You know, the backlash really helped, you know, Delta back off some of what they were planning with Fetcher.

52:56And look, the other thing that really helps is competition, right? That's why it's good to have competition in markets. The CEO of American Airlines and Southwest Airlines jumped into the fray and said, hey, we're not going to do what Delta's doing. We think that's creepy. And that is a really good disciplining force in the market to sort of root out some of the worst practices. So, you know, consumer backlash, healthy competition, those are those are good ones. Obviously, it helps when you have attorneys general weighing in, you know, the New York attorney general immediately signaled that that she would be taking a close look at Instacart.

53:32And I think that was obviously very helpful in getting them to back off their pricing experimentation. But I don't know. They're all kind of equally difficult in their own way. I think the hardest part is exposing it. Once you expose it and put the sunlight on it, then the sort of process of consumer backlash and regulation and enforcement can start to take root. And you wrote this book called Gouge that you kind of mentioned earlier on in the interview as well. If someone goes through that book and they read that book, what do you want them to feel when they put that book down? Yeah. Well, it'll be out on September 29th.

54:06So you can preorder it, but you won't be able to read it for a little while. But it is written. It's finished. So I can tell you what I what I hope. I mean, look, I think, you know, it is a little cliche to say that Americans are worried about how high prices are right now and how things are unaffordable. But my sense is that most of us are upset not just about the fact that prices are high, but also about the fact that pricing just feels more deceptive, more unpredictable, less transparent. And I think if you have felt that way and kind of wondered if something had changed and wondered if something was afoot, you know, I think when you read this book, you'll feel really validated.

54:49You know, I was right. Like they were up to something like that price did change between this week and last week. My husband did weirdly get a better deal than me. Like that wasn't an accident. Like that was by design. And, you know, I think the other thing that I hope the book will lay out is, you know, it doesn't have to be this way. And we know because we changed it once before. And after thousands of years of haggling, it was actually the Quakers in Pennsylvania in the United States who said, you know, this price discrimination thing is super unfair. If all men are created equal under God, like all men should pay the same price at the checkout line.

55:31And they moved to a standardized price. And then John Wanamaker, the Philadelphia merchant who had a new department store, Wanamakers, said, you know, I think I agree with the Quakers on this one. and I'm going to put price tags in my store. And he brought the price tag to the U.S. retail setting. And it wasn't just that the price tag was more fair. There was a business case for the price tag. Haggling takes a lot of time. And, you know, you're at a department store, you're going to buy some pantyhose and some lipstick and a blazer. Like you don't want to be haggling over each of those. You want people linger in buying things, not spending all their time at the checkout line.

56:05And so, you know, it was kind of a win-win for Wanamaker. It was something that was fair and consumer oriented, but also good for his bottom line. And I think, you know, we've really gotten away from that kind of bedrock equal pricing standard over that we've had with us for 150 years now. But over the last 10 or 15 years, it's slowly eroding. And so I think, you know, giving readers a sense of that history and understanding that, you know, it's time for a fresh look. It's time to really rewrite the bargain between shoppers and retailers for the digital era. There are some things that maybe weren't in law, but they were norms in our society, kind of normative cultural values that we all kind of all depended on.

56:48I think it's time to bring those back. And just because you're shopping online doesn't mean you can't be treated fairly. Absolutely. I totally agree. And I think that is one of those things where you think through, you know, haggling through every single purchase that you make. That sounds exhausting to me. That's one of those areas where I'm sort of exhausting enough trying to make choices. So exactly. So it's one of those things that I think, yeah, for sure is something. I'm so glad you're spreading this message because I think it is such an important thing to talk through. Well, Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

57:17Where do you want people to pre-order the book? Where can they find out more about you, your work, and everything else that you're doing? Yeah, you can buy the book. It's gouged the end of a fair price and what that means for your wallet. You can pre-order wherever you get your books, your local bookstore. You can go to Amazon. You can go to Penguin Viking, the publisher, and buy direct. Awesome. And we will link all those down below in the show notes. Thank you again so much, Lindsay, for coming on here. Thanks for having me.