How to Invest in Real Estate (In ANY MARKET) with Dave Meyer

22:53But I think in time, it's fun. I think it keeps you on your toes. You get to meet new people. You get to try new stuff. And it's kind of one of, in my opinion, the joys of being an investor is just problem solving and trying new things. And it is a little scary, but also it makes, I think it keeps things fresh. Exactly. And I agree. I think that's one of the areas too, where you can become more successful, you can test out more deals during certain markets when you're doing that. And I agree with you, kind of sticking with your initial plan and the way that you're kind of structuring this and the way that you're thinking about this, and then kind of just becoming and adding some of those little things in there in between, I think it'd be really, really helpful overall.

23:33So how do you separate when it comes to a lot of data that gets thrown out there all the time, you see all this housing data that comes out. And a lot of people will kind of stick to different metrics and kind of utilize that as, hey, this is not a good market because of this, or this is not a good market because of that. How do you, when you look at the market, how do you separate signal from noise? Or are there some key metrics that you're really, really focusing in on that most people maybe miss? Yeah, I think there are a lot of things. The key metrics, if you're looking at the long-term picture of the housing market, you need to be looking at supply and demand dynamics and demographics.

24:11I know those are like boring things people love to point to like, oh, this market's tanking or, you know, this thing, mortgage rates really is demographics tell us a lot about the housing market. The reason prices have been going up over the last couple of years, despite higher rates since 2022, is because millennials are reaching their peak home buying age. We have this pending transfer from boomers to millennials, right, where they own a lot of real estate. So those things really matter. And then what I was explaining before, people really underestimate what's going on with the supply side. They just look at demand and where people are moving, and they don't think about how much supply there is.

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29:38People are like, you remember 2008 pretty hard and think that that could happen again. And I would never say that it can't happen again. Anything is possible. But I think there are, you know, I've spent a lot of my time professionally over the last couple of years is just trying to understand how that happened and what makes a crash, what could make that happen again. And I could just tell you right now that like the variables that go into that aren't there. I, you asked about metrics that I really look at. I look at home owner health. Are people paying their mortgages? That is probably the number one indicator of whether or not there could be a housing market crash.

30:19And the data is sort of overwhelming in that area where people are paying their mortgages. Delinquencies are relatively low. They're lower than they were in 2019, the last, quote unquote, normal housing market we had. And so that's sort of what I try and understand is like, that's my job is to figure out, it's the job of a data analyst. What is the variable that really matters? And to me, when we talk about a housing crash, because that's the question everyone has, homeowner delinquencies, mortgage delinquencies is the variable that matters and it's in good shape. So like those are the kinds of things I try and do it with markets.

30:55I told you, I think jobs and wage growth, like those are the things that really matter. And although those other variables play minor roles, for me, it's really trying to distill the one or two thing matter, you know, getting clear on the question you want to answer and then figuring out the one or two variables that are driving it. I love that. I think that is one of those areas too, where people know which metrics to actually focus on and not just listen to the headlines or whatever else is going on. That is super helpful. And mortgage delinquencies, that's a huge one for sure. I love when you talk through that, typically on your report.

31:28And when you go through that, that's a huge, huge deal. And one thing I'm always listening for, which I think is very powerful. Now I see a lot of people, and this is something I get all the time from people on which investing strategies should they choose. So one big thing that I always think back on was like during COVID, a lot of people got into Airbnb investing and there was a lot of people kind of having conversations about that. Or you can see there are times when people are wholesaling or wanting to flip more when, you know, HGTV back in the day had all the flipping shows like people would be interested in that.

31:54And there's all these trending ways to invest in real estate. But if somebody is trying to decide and they are newer to this and they're trying to decide, hey, which direction should I go with or which direction should I take for my personal lifestyle? How do you tell them to choose? Because I think you and I are both, for the most part, buy and hold investors. I've done flips and things like that in the past. But how do they kind of choose for their own lifestyle, especially if they're trying to pursue financial freedom? I think that's the big key overall. Yeah, I have a framework I use for this.

32:22I basically believe if you want to be in real estate investing, most people, their goal is financial independence, right? They want to get passive income long term. But to achieve that, you need some sort of active income, right? Like you need money. If you're going to go buy rental properties, you need some money to go buy those properties with. Right. And so I think the question most people get hung up on is like, do I want to be a buy and hold investor? Do I want to buy rental properties or do I want to be a flipper? I don't think that's the right question. I think almost everyone should be buying rental property.

32:57It's like, I know that's kind of my thing. I'm totally biased, but I do just believe strongly that if you're trying to secure a long-term wealth building asset, rental properties are the way to do it. And I don't really care. And people argue with me about this. I don't really care if you short-term rental it, mid-term rental it, long-term rental it. Buy a great asset in a great location. Manage it however is optimal for that location for you. But buy great assets, Like that's the winning recipe for long term wealth and real estate. How you get your active income is a totally different question because and you have a choice.

33:35Do you want to stay at a W-2 job or you can use real estate to earn that active income through flipping, through wholesaling? But make no mistake, those are jobs. Those are jobs that you are taking on in real estate. And so if you want a job in real estate, fine, go do that. If you love the idea of flipping, if you're a contractor and you want more money to buy rental properties, go flip. That's a great option for you. But personally, I chose not to do that. I recognized I have a master's degree in data analytics. And I was like, I could earn more money just working a W-2 job. And I'm going to put that towards my rental property portfolio.

34:15So I think it really comes down. So I guess I'd summarize by saying everyone should buy rental properties if you're in it for the long run. And then figure out what you enjoy and how you can maximize your income. Because I don't think people talk about that much, but buying rental properties is expensive. So how can you maximize your current income in a way that you enjoy? If that's real estate, great. But if it's not, it doesn't really matter. You can do it other ways. I love that. And I think the way that you position that is absolutely perfect, where it's investing is more so kind of buying and holding those rental properties for the long term.

34:49And if you have a long term plan, you can kind of look at it that way. Whereas flipping and wholesaling, that is a job. I mean, you're hustling, you're doing all these different things, and that is more so for your active income. So I love that process. If you want to do both, you absolutely can. But I think they, and they can coincide together very well. But I think that is a great way to look at this for most people out there. So we talked a little bit at the beginning about, you know, the direction of the market and how, you know, you're saying, you know, appreciation is something that just has slowed down over the course of the last couple of years.

35:17And it is something we are still at a stagnant point. There are people out there that I know that have had conversations where they invest solely for appreciation, and then there are people out there that invest solely for cash flow. What would you say to the folks that are investing for appreciation? And is that a mistake? Is that something they should not be looking at? Should they be running the numbers to cash flow? What do you say for people on appreciation versus cash flow? I love this debate, by the way. It never ends in real estate investors. It's probably the most common debate that we have.

35:46I will say that in today's market, I would not invest for appreciation alone. I don't think that makes sense. There are going to be markets that appreciate. We could see runaway appreciation if there's a big inflationary event or, you know, some black swan thing that happens. I just don't think it's the wise thing to do, because if you look at the data, it suggests that we're probably going to have a flat market at best for the last couple of years. And I don't think it makes sense as an investor in general to put your assets into something that you have no control over. Right. Like I, you know, this what we call, quote unquote, real estate investing isn't investing.

36:28It is entrepreneurship. You are buying a you are creating a small business. Right. And as a small business owner, I don't want to buy into something that is quite expensive that I don't have control over. I think the benefit, the reason I like real estate over the stock market is that I have some control. And so to me, market appreciation, these macro forces that push housing prices up or down is out of our control. And I don't think it's in our it's, you know, things could change, but I don't think the way it looks right now, it's going in our favor. And so I would only and what I talk about on the Bigger Pockets podcast all the time is I would not buy a deal that does not at least break even cash flow right now.

37:10Now, how much cash flow you need and how much appreciation you need, I see that as sort of this swinging scale. Whereas if there's a deal that is a great location, their jobs are coming, you know, there's infrastructure being built, I'll take a 2 % or 3 % cash on cash return. I know people think I'm crazy about that, but I'll take a small cash on cash return because there's huge upside in appreciation. Now, if you get a 2 % or 3 % cash-on-cash return, you add that to your loan pay down, your tax benefits, you're still beating the stock market. So I like that people think that's too low a cash-on-cash return, but I'm talking for a premium-premium asset.

37:48For most deals that I look at where it's a good location, it's in the path of progress, then you need a 6 % or 7 % cash-on-cash return. but some deals, maybe it's not in a growing area, then you need a 10 or 12 % cash on cash return. So the way I like to look at it is the total overall return that you're getting. I want it to be 12 % or better. That is my personal benchmark. And some people have it higher, but to me, 12 % beats the stock market by enough that it justifies my investment of time. The stock market depends on who you ask, 8 % to 9 % average per year. So I can't do 9 % because real estate takes time.

38:31Stock market's way easier. So to justify my time, I need my total return to be 12%, ideally like 15 % or more, because that, you know, it doesn't sound like that big of a difference, but I'm sure everyone who listens to a personal finance podcast knows that if you compound that over 20 years, the difference between 8 % and 12 % is very, very dramatic. And so like, that's personally how I think about them, but I am personally pretty open to where on the spectrum, the deal falls. I just try and maximize my total return. And I'm right with you on there. And that is my biggest thing when it comes to making sure when you look at real estate investing, that it is outperforming something like the S &P 500, for example, because I think overall the S &P 500 is very passive, whereas real estate, like you said, is a business.

39:16I almost wish the term was reframed from investing to business because I think that's really what it is. And a lot of folks, if this is your first entry level or foray into business, it could feel a little stressful when you get started, or it could feel when you have to go find a tenant, or if a tenant doesn't pay you one month, or if you don't have systems in place and operating procedures that help you run the property much more efficiently, this could be stressful at the first couple of times. But it is a great foray into business because I think it's just such a powerful way for people to learn.

39:43And it's one of the ways that I learned where you've learned how to deal with people and negotiate. There's just so much cool stuff that happens there. So if you were looking today and you were starting out, you're looking for that cash on cash return, that 12 % cash on cash return, where would you start? Would you kind of look out of state if you're looking in your local area? Like, for example, I am here in Florida, and I've been looking at real estate investments again. So I'm looking out of state kind of across the country and kind of looking in some of those areas. If you were in a more expensive area where you couldn't find deals in your local area, what would a good deal look like?

40:17And would you look out of state if you were new? Or was this something that you would go local if you're new and then go out of state later on? Great question. I'll just say that I do both. You know, I live in a very expensive market and I can't buy rental properties where I live. So I do invest out of state. And so I like that. I will just say that I think the number one thing people really need to understand is their own personal goals and sort of work back from there. I know people get frustrated when experts answer with it depends, but it really does depend. And I really recommend people spend an hour just trying to figure out, ask yourself a couple of questions.

40:58Like, Ari, do you need to see this thing in person? Do you will you be comfortable with buying an asset that you can't go see? Maybe you go see it once or twice a year. If the answer is no, you're not comfortable with that. That's OK. Like you just need to recognize that for a lot of people, it's not. If you can get comfortable with that, I would recommend you do not because buy and hold investing is necessarily better. But I actually think if you do it's long distance investing, excuse me. I actually think long distance investing forces you to learn a lot of skills that you might not learn if you're just investing in your own backyard.

41:37Like how to build a business, to your point, Andrew. For the first 10 years I was investing in Denver, I learned a lot about property maintenance, but I was never going to be a handyman, right? I actually moved to Europe in 2020. My wife got her job transferred to Amsterdam. So we moved to Amsterdam for five years. That's when I learned to be a good real estate investor. because I was forced to manage a property from a distance. I was forced to learn how to work with property managers, learn how to work with contractors in a much more sophisticated way. And I actually think that that has really opened up a lot of new skills for me and a lot of new deal flow.

42:18So I'll just say that. The next thing I would look for, whether you're buying locally or you're buying remote, I have some criteria that I look for. So again, 12 % total return doesn't need to be cash flow, but just total overall return. And then the number one thing you want in your first deal is don't lose. Like that is the most important thing for your first one is you don't need to hit a home run, get on base, learn, and hopefully make some money. Like you should make some money. That is definitely an important part of this. So for me, some general criteria, this isn't true for everyone, but some things that I would look for is look for a property that was built in the 1960s or newer.

42:58Oh, I have spent way too much of my life trying to renovate properties built in the 1910s. I don't know if you have that in Florida, but in the Midwest, in Denver, we got a lot of Victorian houses. It's not fun. Yeah, yeah. You can make a ton of money on it, but it's more of an advanced thing, I think, for people. Buy something with modern plumbing. Buy something with modern electricity. Do not buy anything that has structural issues. So if there's a foundation problem, I wouldn't even buy anything for your first deal that has structural improvement. So don't change the layout. Don't move walls.

43:33Don't pop the top. Just buy something where you can add a little bit of value cosmetically. Now, it's very hard to find deals where you could just go out, buy them, and they're going to cash flow right away. So go find something that needs a cosmetic fix. By cosmetic, that means, again, no structural changes. You're repairing in place. So you need new floors. You need paint. Maybe you need kitchen cabinets. Maybe you need some new lighting, something like that. That's the best way to learn. You're going to build equity in your deal. You're probably going to be able to rent it out for better. And you're not taking on unnecessary risk.

44:10Real estate is expensive, but the biggest risk comes from biting off more than you can chew. People think, though, the market's going to crash. That is probably not going to happen, especially if you buy a good deal. The biggest risk is, you know, operationally, if you take on something you can't handle. And so for the first deal, whether it's long distance or in your backyard, just find an easy deal. It might not be the sexiest thing in the world, but it will give you the confidence to go do better deals in the future. Exactly. And I think that's the biggest key is, for example, my first deal ever was we had no structural issues, but we had shaggy carpet.

44:47We had purple walls. We had bathrooms with pink tile, which I think is - Did it smell? Yeah, exactly. All that stuff. I mean, it was just all that stuff. And it felt almost daunting the first time. I remember looking at this like, you know, there's a lot of different things that feels like that needs to be done in here. And now it was like the most simple remodel ever because it was all cosmetic. There was no big issues whatsoever. Then you realize as time goes on, oh, replacing like an AC unit isn't a big deal. Replacing a roof isn't a big deal. You make a phone call, get some quotes, and they just come and do it.

45:13And there's just things like that that aren't a huge deal. But once you get into some structural stuff and some plumbing, you know, some big, bigger ticket items, that's where it gets a little more daunting, especially for new investors. But once you know kind of how this stuff goes and you can get through those stressful parts, that is where you'll see this isn't as difficult as it may seem. A lot of times you are, unless you're doing a lot of the work yourself, for most of the time as an investor, we typically will recommend, hey, you got to make sure you have systems in place so you're not doing the work yourself, so you can kind of focus your time and energy on finding more deals.

45:40But that is kind of the way to think about this for a lot of new investors out there overall. So you mentioned you are looking at potentially financial freedom by the time you turn age 45. And for a lot of folks out there, I think thinking about this is really, really important, kind of reverse engineering the way that you're going to design your portfolio. For a lot of folks, you can go out there and you can figure out, hey, how much do I spend every single month? And you figure out, hey, this is my burn rate. Maybe it's 5, 10, however much you spend every single month. And you can reverse engineer and figure out how many properties do I need cash flowing at X amount of dollars in order to become financially free.

46:14Did you do a similar exercise like that? And have you seen people kind of do that and just systematically work their way to getting enough cash flow where they don't have to work anymore? Or how do you think about that? Yeah, I think that's a very good framework. I sort of do it a little bit differently, but I think the framework in general is probably the same. So for me, you need a certain amount of money every single month. Right. And so I I've actually built this in my book. I you know, I come out and put together a budget. Then what most people forget is to adjust for inflation. I know I'm a nerd and think about this, but your spending power halves every 30 years and I am 38 and I don't want my spending power to be halved when I'm 68.

46:56Right. And so I need to adjust for that. And so I, you know, I will be honest. I live in an expensive market and I'm an entrepreneur because I want a comfortable lifestyle. I don't spend money like crazy. I drive a 20 year old car. But I, you know, for me, the number is something like twenty five thousand dollars a month. You know, I want to be making three hundred grand a year, something like that. Right. Right. What I do then is not go out and figure out how many cash flowing deals I want. What I try and do is think I know that in pretty much any market condition, I can probably get a 6 % cap rate.

47:33Right. That a 6 % cash on cash return. And so then I think how much equity do I need to get? Because for three hundred thousand dollars a year, I'm going to just do the math right now. right? It's$300 ,000. If you divide that by 0.06, a 6 % cash on cash return, that means that I need $5 million in equity into my real estate deals. And the reason I do this is because I don't know if you feel this way, Andrew, but like buying rental properties just for cash flow to try and maximize cash flow early in your career is a slow grind. Like if you're getting three, 400 bucks a month, it's going to take a long time to get to 25 grand a month, right?

48:13It's still hard and still takes work to build equity. But that's really what buys you cash flow in the future. I need equity to go buy these cash flowing deals. And so that mindset has put me over the last 10 or so years into how do I build equity quickly that pushes me more towards burr types of projects that allows me to, I do some syndication investing where we're doing heavy rehabs on big multifamily projects. I think about that because I know that if I concentrate on getting those big chunks, 50 grand at a time, 100 grand at a time on a deal, that's going to get me to that 5 million in equity.

48:53Once you got 5 million in equity, you could just go buy everything cash. Then it becomes super easy, right? Like then you have so many options. And so I know it's sort of counterintuitive, but I actually think more about the equity number I need long term, then I need the cash flow. And I am fortunate I am at this place in my career where I've hit my equity number. Now, my properties aren't producing the cash flow that I want them to. And that's OK because I bought them for different reasons. And so, you know, over the next I don't know if we'll take seven years, but next couple of years, I'm taking that equity and repositioning it now into sort of like the end stage of my portfolio.

49:30Right. I've sort of been in this growth mode. Now I'm in the end stage. And so, but it becomes so much easier when you have equity instead of just having 10 cash flowing properties that kind of, you know, limits your ability. I love that thought process because that will allow you to kind of work through different investing strategies and it'll allow you to think through it in a very different way. And then if you realize one strategy is the one that you absolutely love, you can redeploy that capital or that equity into that specific strategy, just like kind of what you're doing, it sounds like.

49:58And I think that is a very powerful way to look at this. And I haven't heard anybody talk about it that way. So I think that's very, very cool. The way you have that structure. So this is one of those things that has been absolutely awesome. I'm going to ask you some rapid fire questions that we ask a lot of different times because I think there's a lot of cool answers we can do from this. So yeah, let's do it. What is your best personal finance tip that you have put in practice in the last year? This is so embarrassing as a professional investor. I made my first budget ever this year. I had never done it.

50:29And I've always talked about how he's never going to do it. And, you know, I moved from Europe, which is lower cost of living to Seattle area, which is very expensive. And I was like, man, I got to get this under control. So I use the Monarch app. I'm not a paid sponsor, but I love it. I'm like obsessed with it now. So I just love the idea of, you know, tracking my spending. I know that's like 101 and it took me 18 years of being a personal finance person to do that, but can't recommend it highly enough. A hundred percent. They're a sponsor of this show. Oh, good. Perfect. It's one that we all use too.

51:02And it's just absolutely fantastic. There's something, so I'm the type of person who kind of goes through seasons when it comes to budgeting. And a lot of times what Monarch has done, which is kind of cool, is since they just kind of automate the process for you, I do something called, we call it the five minute drill, where every single day we tell people, hey, just take five minutes a day, go in there, just categorize your transactions and you're done. You're like on top of it. And it takes literally less than 60 seconds now, like if you, with Monarch, because all the AI tools they have, but that is hilarious that it's your first.

51:28but that's awesome. I mean, that's the big key because it shows you can build wealth without having to budget. But also once you get on top of it, it's kind of reduces stress and anxiety and those kinds of things as well. Yeah, I mean, I'm just this personality for like 15 years. I just had a single track mind about financial freedom. So for me, like I didn't even need to budget. I was just like every spare dollar I have, I'm going to invest. You know, I was just like, but now I've achieved a level of success. I'm married, you know, and, you know, want to enjoy some of my lifestyle. But for me, I need to like do that comfortably and make sure that I'm not spending more than I should.

52:01I'm still investing and all that. And it's been super helpful to me. And I again, I just I think it's kind of fun to just like see where things go, see how you're spending power. But, you know, patterns change over time and just being, you know, awareness is just one of the, you know, the most important thing with your with your spending power. Once you know what's happening, I find it easy to change your behavior. but you i found i was super surprised by certain categories and i think uh it's helped me sort of focus on what's important to me that's amazing i love it it allows you to just kind of figure out and kind of intentionally spend your dollars instead of just kind of unfrivolous thing which i think is awesome so what is the best book that you have read over the course of last year okay i read a lot i'm a big reader but i read a lot of fiction these days um i go through periods So I'm reading a great book called Lonesome Dove.

52:55It's like a Western. It won the Pulitzer Prize in the 80s. Great fiction book. But my favorite personal finance book recently, you've probably talked about it, is The Psychology of Money, Morgan Housel. Yeah, great book. I think it's the one I recommend the most to people. I just think so much of economics, they call it a dismal science for a reason, right? It's psychology. So much is about fear and risk tolerance. and comfort with different decision-making. And I think that book really just gives people a good framework from which to start a personal finance journey. Agreed. And we always say it's 90 % your psychology and it's 10 % kind of what your head knowledge is when it comes to personal finance.

53:36And I think that's what that plays out, which I think is absolutely perfect. What is the number one thing that you think you can change with your finances long-term? Like what would be the number one thing that you would do going forward? for myself? For yourself, yes. I think the biggest change I would personally make is trying to reduce my overall debt. I know that's surprising as a real estate investor, but I'm at a place where I'm fortunate. I think of real estate investing in these three phases. And I borrow this. I don't know if you know a guy named Chad Carson, Coach Carson. He's a real estate investor.

54:15Yeah, I love Chad. He's the best. He has this framework that I'm stealing. Well, I'm attributing to him, but I love to use this. He says there's three phases of real estate investing. It's growth, or it's starting out, just getting that base hit that I was talking about. Then you have this growth stage where, for me, you focus on that equity, right? You build that up. And then you get to the quote unquote harvest stage, which is where you have enough equity and now you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. And for me, as I just sort of like reflect on my personal goals, I just would love to have a bunch of free and clear rental properties.

54:49That's sort of where I'm going. Not because it's the fastest way to grow, but I think it's really important as an investor and in personal finance. So like knowing you've had enough, like you don't need to grow for the sake of growing. I think I'm close to my goals and I need to get to a point where I just don't want risk. And so I want to remove debt, focus on cash flow. And I think that will get me to that sort of like what I would call financial freedom for me, where I just have less overall risk and more of just a stable set of assets that are helping me, you know, covering my living expenses.

55:23It's funny because I am, I'm 37, so we're similar ages now. Okay, yeah. It's one of those things that I have looked at a ton over the course of the last just couple of years is reducing my overall risk and just kind of getting rid of debt. And I even hold a little more cash than I should a lot of times. Same. it's just, it's a stage of life I'm in where I want to be like, I've done, you know, as much as I wanted to do. And I think, um, that is one of those areas where as you get older, I think you just kind of see that, um, and try to, especially when you kind of hit some of your enough numbers and look at that stuff.

55:55So I think that's exactly it. You have to take risk when you're growing. Like, I think that's why it's important to think of it in these stages, because if you don't take risk in that growth stage, you're never going to get these targets. Like what level of risk you're comfortable with depends on person to person, but you have to take some level of risk. And I'm not saying I'm taking no risk, but I just think, you know, for me, I take some risk in syndications. I take some risks in the stock market. For me, the value of real estate is low risk. So I'm like, how do I just that's my bread and butter.

56:26I almost think of them like bonds, right? Like they're just going to give me that seven, eight percent every year. I don't have to worry about them. So I think it really is a question of, you know, knowing your own goals, knowing yourself, and then figuring out, you know, where are you in your life and, you know, sort of like readjusting your portfolio accordingly. 100%. And I think it just, it's so cool to kind of see that life cycle and where you're kind of reaping the benefits of, hey, you're in that growth stage. And then all of a sudden you're kind of reaping the benefits at the end there.

56:56The last one is, and this is my favorite one, what does wealth mean to you? For me, wealth is time freedom. I'm sure you hear that a lot on the show and you ask people question, but I never got into investing. I never started a business thinking about buying stuff. It's never really crossed my mind. The things that I dreamed about is traveling. That's like one of my big passions. I'm a big like outdoor sports person. And so I want time for that. I want to ski. I want to hike. I want to go travel with my wife. I want to see my family. And I always just wanted to do that in a way that wasn't compromising my financial future.

57:40Because when I got out of college, I kind of saw my friends diverging in two ways. So a lot of them went into like, I'm going to make as much money as possible. Some of them are like, I'm going to enjoy my life. And I don't think there's a wrong answer. And I was like, how do I split the middle? How do I really enjoy my life, but also get wealthy? And to me, that metric is like always been quality of life. Like, how do I ensure I have quality of life without, you know, while I make sure I have a comfortable place for my family to live while, you know, while I'm not worried about health care or anything like that.

58:15And yeah, I think it's the most rewarding thing on earth is having that flexibility. And it means everything to me. I don't think money buys happiness. I think it buys a lot of convenience and flexibility, which is really valuable to me. And so that's what it means to me. I love that. And I love that answer. And it's the tool that helps you get there, which I think is the biggest key overall. Well, Dave, thank you so much for coming on the show. Can you tell everybody where they can find out more about you, the podcast, the book, and everything else? They can always find me on biggerpockets.com.

58:49I have two books, Start With Strategy and Real Estate By The Numbers. Or you can find me on Instagram where I'm at The Data Deli. Awesome. That is fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming on. We're going to have to bring you back more often so we can talk about markets and metrics and what's going on with the market at that given time. So thank you so much. Absolutely. Thanks so much. Have a great day.