#279 - AMA #53: Metabolic health & pharmacologic interventions: SGLT-2 inhibitors, metformin, GLP-1 agonists, and the impact of statins

0:10Hey everyone, welcome to a sneak peek, ask me anything, or AMA episode of the Drive Podcast. I'm your host, Peter Atia. At the end of this short episode, I'll explain how you can access the AMA episodes in full, along with a ton of other membership benefits we've created. Or you can learn more now by going to peteratia MD dot com forward slash subscribe. So without further delay, here's today's sneak peek of the Ask Me Anything episode.

0:39Welcome to Ask Me Anything AMA number 53. I'm joined once again by my co -host Nick Stenson. In today's episode, we'll discuss two different topics. First, we'll have a follow up to AMA 51 where we focused on metabolic disease. One thing we didn't really cover in that AMA, which we cover in much more detail in this AMA, are the various pharmacologic tools that we have at our disposal to improve an individual's metabolic health. These include a discussion around SGLT2 inhibitors, which are also of interest for their potential zero protective benefits, along with metformin, GLP1, agonists, and other drugs that can improve one's metabolic health.

1:18From there, we shift our discussion to look very specifically at the relationship between perhaps the most prescribed class of drugs out there, statins, and their relation to insulin resistance. This is a topic we get a lot of questions on. In fact, so many that we decided that it was worth half an AMA. So we cover all of the issues here and all of the data around statins and not just the relationship to type two diabetes, which is generally recognized as a small issue with certain statins, but much more broadly around on the relationship between statins and metabolic health. And of course, we put this in the broader context of net benefit versus net harm.

1:56So if you're a subscriber and you wanna watch the full video of this podcast, you can find it on the show notes page. If you're not a subscriber, you can watch a sneak peak of the video on our YouTube page. So without further delay, I hope you enjoy AMA number 53.

2:15Peter. Welcome to another AMA. How you doing? Doing very well. How's that toothpick treating you? Very well. Loved me some toothpicks. Do you ever tell the story about how you ended up with so many? I think I have to share that story. In fact, I know I've shared that story because when I meet strangers sometimes, they've asked me if they can have some of those toothpicks. Are they still to the state the best toothpicks you've ever had? No, I would actually say my toothpick game has evolved a little bit and I have started to like other types of toothpicks. Those toothpicks are still remarkable, but I don't think I could call them the single best toothpick in the history of dentition.

2:53Well, maybe a future AMF there's enough demand we can break out the different types of toothpicks and pros and cons of each. But not today. So today we are gonna talk kind of in follow up for the first part, two AMA 51, which was on metabolic disease. And metabolic disease is one of your four horsemen that you talk about in the book and talk about on podcasts, the other three being cardiovascular disease, neurogenitive disease, cancer. In that AMA, we talked about how metabolic disease feeds those other types of diseases. We went into insane detail and how to measure and know where you're at and how your metabolic health is, and then we talked about some lifestyle factors that you can do to improve your metabolic health.

3:39The one thing that was missing from that AMA, which we get a lot of questions on, is what about the pharmacological options for people to improve their metabolic health? So the first part of this AMA, we'll talk about that. That will include SGLT2 inhibitors, metformin, GLP1, and a few others. and on some of those drugs, such as SGLT2 inhibitors, will also cover if there's potentially a geroprotective benefit to those, because we also see questions from people who may be in good metabolic health, but based on some study results are curious on that. Part two, we're gonna cover something we get asked about an insane amount, and that is the relationship between stentons and insulin resistance.

4:24And we see a lot of questions come through, and so we pulled all of them for that. we'll get to those here. All that said before we get started, anything you want to add. No, I think that's a great synopsis of our very ambitious goals today. We'll see what we can do. The first one, SGLT2 inhibitors. This is something that you and Rich Miller talked about on the podcast where Rich dove into the ITP. We're going to have Rich Miller back on again, but we receive a lot of questions on SGLT2 inhibitors. And it would be helpful, I just think to just cover the basics of what are they and how are they initially developed?

5:00I guess we could sort of demystify the acronym a little bit. So, SGLT2 is kind of a crappy way to abbreviate sodium glucose -co -transporter protein -2. I know it's someone's thinking, which is, but where's the L and where's the P? Don't ask. That's just the way it works in biology. We come up with really, really bad acronyms. sodium glucose, co -transport, or protein 2 is SGLT2. And honestly, this is a great example of where a picture is gonna be more valuable than just me rambling. So for those of you that are just listening to us, I'm gonna do my best to try to explain this, but anyone who can watch this on video, be it on YouTube or on our channel, please do that.

5:45Okay, so Nick, please pull up said figure of a Neffron. Got it? Okay. Okay, so the Nephron is the functional cellular unit of the kidney. And in the proximal tubule, so I don't want to overwhelm us with renal physiology here, but the kidney is kind of a unique organ in that it's really a tiny organ, but it is overrun with blood. So there's lots of plasma that's passing through the renal arteries. And the reason for that is, of course, the importance of filtration. So in a nutshell, this is the way the kidney works. And this was explained by one of my professors in medical school. I never forgot this and I found it to be a very valuable way to think about it.

6:26You know if you were a kid and your mom said, I want you to go into your room and clean your dresser out where you have your socks, you run to wear your t -shirts, your shorts, and all that stuff, it's tempting to sort of go in there and while everything is in the dresser, try to organize it and pull things out that you don't need and keep what you do need. The kidney doesn't work that way. The kidney has one way of filtering, which is it goes to the dresser and takes every single thing out, and then it simply pulls back in what it wants to keep. That's very different than the kidney saying, I'm going to go and identify things that we don't need or we don't want to pull them out.

7:00Why? Because in the case of the latter, it assumes evolutionarily that the kidney will forever be able to recognize bad things. But in the former, it assumes evolutionarily that the only thing the kidney needs to understand is what is good. And obviously that's a much better strategy, because that's a finite set of things as opposed to an infinite set of things. So the way this works at the cellular level is as plasma rolls through the kidney, it pulls everything out. It just completely dumps everything out. Glucose, sodium, potassium, magnesium, chloride, you name it. As the filtrate runs through the Kidney, it selectively pulls back into the circulation the things that it knows we need.

7:49And that's why the kidney is the most important organ in the body for regulating our electrolytes. So there's an interesting opportunity here because one of those things that happens to get filtered is glucose. And even though the kidney's job is not really managing glucose concentration, there's an interesting opportunity to prevent the kidney from reabsorbing all of the glucose that it immediately shunted out when the plasma came through the kidney in the first place. So in other words, even though the kidney's goal is not interfering with glucose concentration, the way it is doing deliberately with sodium, potassium, chloride, etc.

8:26There's an opportunity. So if you look at this figure now, you'll see on the left hand side of it, a little purple box, and that's called SGLT1 and 2. There are two of them, but obviously we're talking about the sodium cotransporter 2 here. And you can see that it pulls sodium and glucose into the cell together. By the way, as an aside, people who may remember the podcast we did on hydration might recall that we talked about how mixtures of glucose and sodium are the best ways to hydrate cells. If you're really optimizing for water movement, this kind of is a bit of a reminder why sodium and glucose move together very efficiently.

9:05But let's put that aside for a moment. As you can see, look at this diagram. If you had a way to block that purple thing, you would be able to keep more glucose in the urine. On this graph, this figure, rather, the right -hand side is where things are returning to the plasma going back to the body. The left -hand side is things that will be excreted in the urine. So when you block SGLT2, you prevent sodium and glucose from being reabsorbed by the cell to then be put back into the plasma. And therefore, you will pee out more sodium and glucose. And therefore, this has become a very attractive solution for people whose blood glucose is too high, taking a very big step back, how do we manage the problem of type two diabetes?

9:54That's really what we're talking about today. You can manage it by reducing glucose. You can manage it by increasing insulin sensitivity. You can manage it by increasing insulin itself. This is a strategy that says here's how we're going to lower glucose. Metformin, which we'll talk about as well, is also a glucose lowering strategy, whereas GLP1 tends to be probably more of an insulin sensitizing strategy coupled with, to some extent, a glucose lowering strategy by the fact that you simply eat less. So with that said, any other questions on SGLT two inhibitors? That is to say, the class of drugs that block this protein?

10:31No, I think that's a good overview of what they do. I think some other people reached out and a good follow -up to that is, how are they developed initially in the first place to solve this problem? Yes, so it's not an uncommon story in pharmacotherapy where there is a naturally occurring substance that sort of does this and then a drug company will come in or the scientist will come in and figure out a way to make a better version of the molecule that occurs in nature. By the way, metformin is a naturally occurring molecule. Statins are naturally occurring molecules. So the naturally occurring molecules have pros and cons, but that's an impetus for further development.

11:13And the same is true here. So there's a chemical called floresine, primarily found in apples. I think it's found in the skin of a few other fruits in relatively small quantities. And it was originally isolated, if I'm not mistaken, in the 17th century. And it was part of the botanical solutions to people with various infectious diseases, malaria, things of that nature. To be completely honest with you, I don't actually know how efficacious it was. However, it started to become clear, and this is the important point, of course, is that when people were given flora -zene, they developed glucose urea.

11:48They developed glucose in their urine. And this became a very important early diagnostic step in the treatment of type two diabetes. In other words, a Sir William Osler who's the father of modern medicine in this country, and Canada for that matter, Osler was a Canadian. He used to actually taste his patients urine to determine if they had type two diabetes. So here you took patients who didn't have diabetes and you could induce this idea that we saw in people with diabetes, where they're peeing out glucose. So people put two and two together and said, well, wait a minute. If we're giving this drug to people and they're peeing out glucose and they're not diabetic to begin with, then this drug is doing something that is impacting that pathway.

12:29And that's effectively what led to the development of these drugs. In fact, if you pull up a photo, and I think we have a picture of Floresine next to a modern day SGLT2 inhibitor, you can see this similarity. Just pull that up. So there you go. Fluorazine naturally occurring on the left and an SGLT2 inhibitor on the right. And you don't have to be a biochemist to recognize that there are some similarities here. Now, there are far fewer similarities between these two molecules than there are between the existing batch of SGLT2 inhibitors. And there are currently four of them out there. And they all have really, really unpleasant names that are not necessarily that important, but they all end in flows in, not surprisingly.

13:17Their names will come up as we go along and we'll probably talk maybe a little bit more about Kanagaflose in a minute because it ties into the ITP study. But the point here is all of these GIF flowsons, if you will, are GIF flowsons have kind of a similar structure, which is this glucose ring with an aromatic group and then they differ basically around that. And these differences obviously allow you to have drug companies to make different versions of drugs from an IP perspective but they also tend to be dosed differently and that reflects a very different potency of the drugs as well. Although we're not talking about it today, you mentioned statins in that form in which we'll cover are naturally occurring.

13:58Rapamycin's also naturally occurring, correct? That's right. Yeah, and Rapamycin interestingly is given basically in the format in which it was discovered whereas as SGLT2 inhibitors are not, they're now basically derivatives of what exists in nature. Metformin is actually pretty close to the original molecule that was discovered in the lilac lilies. The very, very weakest of all statins, which is preva -call or preva -statin, is closer to the most naturally occurring statins that are found in red yeast rice. So it is really interesting that nature's given pharmacologists a head start on drug development in many cases.

14:37The other follow -up is, push came to shove. Would you be tasting your patients urine to help diagnose anything? Yeah, I mean, push comes to shove. The world has run out of glucose dipsticks, and we have all of the exact same technology we have today, except we somehow have lost the ability to determine if there's glucose in urine. So we can still split atoms and do all those other things, but we just can't do that one thing, is that what you're saying? Yes, yeah, just really trying to understand if your patients are listening how dedicated are you to their health? I'm gonna go with a yes on that and I'm not gonna do it alone.

15:16I'm gonna win list the help of my entire clinical team. That's right. I'm sure they're very happy to hear that as well. So the follow -up which hints at what you talked about there is the next question we get a ton of is what are the different SGLT2 inhibitors and what do we know about the differences between them? I think anyone who's thinking about potentially taking these or is taking these will be interested in that. And so maybe we can just run through that quick as it sets the stage going forward. I think I already alluded to one of them, Kanaga Flowson, and I think it's probably the one for which we have the most data.

15:46It was approved exactly 10 years ago, so in 2013. And it was looked at both in isolation and in combination with Metformin, which was obviously the standard of care for initiation therapy in many ways still is. So two things were observed. So the first was that in a dose dependent manner, meaning more drug, more response from not mistaken, Kanagha Flosen is doast. I want to say between 100 and 300 milligrams daily. But as the dose went up, you saw a greater increase in hemoglobin A1c reduction. And the results were reasonable. So somewhere between a 0 .7 and 1 % reduction in hemoglobin A1c. And by the way, what I mean when I say 0 .7 to 1%.

16:30I mean absolute reduction in A1c, not relative. So if your hemoglobin A1c was 6 .1, you would expect it to go down to as much as 5 .1. That's a very big reduction in hemoglobin A1c. And interestingly, when a second trial was done that looked at metformin plus canagophlosin, it found an average reduction in the hemoglobin A1c of 1 .8%. That's really significant. So somebody shows up at 7 .8 % hemoglobin A1C, so they're clearly and well into the territory of type 2 diabetes where the threshold is 6 .5%. And that person's going to come down to 6 .0%. So they're going to go from being in a state of raging type 2 diabetes to being pre -diabetic.

17:14Metformin is typically first line. I suspect part of that has to do with cost, but I also believe it has to do with efficacy. I mean, metformin monotherapy is pretty robust. It depends on the study, but it's up to 1 .3 % reduction in hemoglobin A1C after about six months. So, sizable benefits. Again, we've talked about metformin a lot on this podcast. You know, and I forgot to look for this earlier, and I should have. I don't believe that we see the same amount of weight loss with canagophlose and that we see with metformin. So, metformin is, if I had to guess, someone will check me on this, I'm sure.

17:47If I had to guess, I would say monotherapy metformin would be associated with slightly more weight loss than monotherapy s -jl -t2 inhibitor. But again, that's something we're understanding. Now, we're going to talk about this in more detail, but the other important question here is, are there other benefits associated with be it Kinega Flosen or other s -jl -t2 inhibitors that go beyond the glycemic control? And again, in addition to weight loss, we're also seeing a greater reduction in blood pressure. I've always wondered with the blood pressure improvement if it's because of, if you go back to what we talked about earlier, remember when you block SGLT2, you're preventing the kidney from reabsorbing not just glucose, but sodium.

18:28So as a patient is excreting more glucose and sodium in their urine, you would think they have obviously less sodium within their plasma that may explain the benefits we see on the blood pressure front as well. I guess maybe just to round this out, Nick, there are, as I said, four of these drugs that are approved, the three others, and you'll have to bear with me for whatever reason. and I just have a complete brain thing that does not work when it comes to pronouncing the syllables in proximity of these things. But you have Dapa, Dapa, Dapa, Dapa, Clifflosen, Impagaflosen, and Ertugethlosen as the other three.

19:08And they were approved anywhere from 2013, 2014, actually, up until the most recent one in 2017 if I'm not mistaken. Why is it that drugs have such confusing names like that? Why do they purposely try and make it where any human can't pronounce it? Yeah, it's actually a great point and it's a very deliberate point. The reason that if you're a drug company and you're developing a drug, you really like it when it has an awful, awful name is that the generic name, the molecule name, is free for anybody to use. So when the drug goes off patent, anybody can sell that drug. But it's the trade name. So for example, for empagaflosen, it's Giardians.

19:57That's way easier to remember. So if you're the company that's making that, you want everybody to forever remember Giardians. You want people to remember Crestor, not Rizuvistatin. You want them to remember Lippitor, not a torvistatin. So it's just classic pharma -shakainery, which is let's make sure that doctors and patients alike are associating the brand name with it. And presumably there's some belief that that translates to a longer tail of sales. Anyway, I could be speculating on all of that, but that's sort of my two cents. The next follow -up here is something you hinted at earlier, which is, What do we know about other effects for SGLT2's outside of just the glycemic control?

20:43Yeah, I think this is where things do get a little bit interesting. Because we've talked about metformin, I think people are already familiar with the idea that, okay, metformin is kind of like bread and butter, early intervention type two diabetes. But that's not really the reason people are excited about it. People are excited about metformin and people talk about it and people ask me about it because because the belief is that it's doing something beyond regulating blood sugar. And I think to a lesser extent in the public's eye, but probably to a greater extent in the scientific eye, the excitement is the same for SGLT2 inhibitors.

21:17That's interesting, isn't it, right? The public is way more interested about metformin. I think the scientific community sees much more promise than SGLT2 inhibitors, at least on average. And that's based on my very unofficial survey of this. Why is that? One of the things is that the ITP, the intervention's testing program, has found a clear difference between them. We'll talk about that in a second, I'm sure. But the other one is just looking at the really clear differences in human clinical trials for the advantages associated with SGLT2 inhibitors in terms of major adverse cardiac events, what are called mace.

21:52So, if you look at people with or without, is the big point, without T2D, SGLT2 inhibitors have been shown to decrease the risk of hospitalization and death for heart failure patients with reduced ejection fraction and improve basically all cardiovascular outcomes and patients with heart failure who have preserved EF. So you take people who have reduced ejection fraction, so what does that mean? So the heart pumps and we can measure with an ultrasound how much blood comes out of the heart with each pump. So if you're at rest, that number might be 40%, 50%, and if you're under great stressor when you're exercising, one of the tools that the body has to increase cardiac output is not just to beat faster, but also to beat with greater contractility and get more ejection of blood volume.

22:37Well, heart failure is basically a condition in which ejection fraction goes down. And when ejection fraction gets low enough, 20%, 15%, you're in a lot of difficulty. And what's been demonstrated, and this has been demonstrated repeatedly, is that when patients have heart failure with or without reduction in EF, outcomes are better if they're taking SGLT2 inhibitor, even if they are not patients with type 2 diabetes. Again, I think there are lots of potential reasons why we might see that. I think it probably has to do with the reduction in blood pressure, but it may have to do with other things as well, which we could explore.

23:12You also hinted at where we're going next there, which is a lot of people but when they talk about SGLT2s and a lot of questions we get, it's much like Metformin. It's not Diabetics, kind of wondering about Metformin. It's people who are interested in the GELPRTECTIVE side of it. And it's the same with SGLT2s. And so I think now would be a good time to just say, what do we know about SGLT2s as a potential GELPRTECTIVE molecule? Thank you for listening to today's sneak peak AMA episode of The Drive. If you're interested in hearing the complete version of this AMA, you'll want to become a premium member.

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