#104: Erwin McManus: The 7 Hidden Frequencies That Run Your Life.

29:06If they outgrew me, that's awesome. Because my wife will say to me, people don't stay. People move on. People aren't loyal. And I go, yeah, but they're leaving better. And as long as we can say we invested more than we took, the relationship is healthy for us. And I think that's the goal in life because there is an aspect of it that people are seasonal for you, but also you will be seasonal for people. And you have to be comfortable with both of those. And then hopefully you'll have a few people in your life that you go, wow, we're going to get to do life together forever. it's like you're speaking exactly what's going on and so i'm keen to unpack this a little bit

29:55because perhaps this element of what i was explaining is that i never thought of it of this way of i'm being transactional and what you're explaining there and what i'm just thinking is when you make a relationship transactional you remove the person from the person yeah and you don't see them as a person like you should and this person is much more than just one dimensional and one thing yeah and perhaps when you make it transactional you're making this person one dimensional so you are obsessed with business type a really just want to succeed and excel in that you then go for a dinner with a bunch of friends and because they're not speaking about business you think they're lame and it's like and you're like oh they're not it yeah but it's like no yes in order to achieve greatness a lot of the time we need to be one-dimensional but that doesn't mean we don't relate to these people that we've been friends with for 20 years or five years or even six months it's like no when you're making it transactional you're a moving person from the person what's something that you can say to kind of help me because honestly it's been the biggest challenge in my whole life is keeping friends and uh but you're only 23 i'm only 23 and i and i think and i do cut myself slack in that aspect where i i feel like the life that i am living really it's it's changing so dramatically and and that's why you haven't been able to keep friends yes you have to realize most people are in a very slow trajectory of change.

31:29And the dominant number of humans will change very little in their lifetime. You are an anomaly. You are going to change a lot. And you've changed a lot up to 23, and you're going to change probably even more to 33. And so that means that people who relate to you at 23, if they don't keep growing, will not relate to you at 33. I have probably one person that's still a friend from my early 20s. And he moves so slow. And I feel like it's a tortoise and a hare kind of thing. But I had to resolve years and years ago, this guy really is my friend. He really loves me. He cares about me. I just have to stop putting expectations on him that I put on myself.

32:20And so I've learned over time to realize that very few people change at the rate that you change or the rate that I change. And even at 67, I'm still a high, high, high risk taker. I mean, I'm still starting new companies, doing endeavors, risking massive wealth. And most people can't handle that level of pressure on their life. And I don't want to judge people going, oh, they're happy. I remember one time, I maybe shouldn't share this, but my wife and I had this couple we liked, and they were brilliant. He went to Harvard, she went to Duke, you know, so they're, you know, elite. And we were friends for a season and then they just sort of stopped coming over or stopped seeing us.

33:07And Kim and I thought, you know, they're really great people, so we should ask them what we did wrong. And so we called them up, had another dinner and I said, Hey, did we do something like to offend you? We really like you guys. I think you're amazing. And they almost in concert said, No, but whenever we're around you, we feel like we should make our lives more. We feel the pressure to grow and to change and to achieve. And we just don't want that pressure in our life. And I remember saying, oh, I'm good with that. Like, I'm okay with that. I'm good with you choosing a slower paced life and my life being too intense for you.

33:55and but i still like you and and but i i accept that you want people who move in your rhythm and and and sometimes you have to accept the fact that the faster you move the fewer people are going to actually stay with you they feel not good enough when they hang around you probably no they felt great about themselves but when they hung around you they didn't because they're like oh and we need more yeah i need to do more and i'm like i'm not really expecting you to do more. I just thought you were interesting. And you have to realize that a lot of people, it's not even about intelligence. There are people whose IQs are off the scale and have gone to Oxford, but they're more professorial.

34:39And so they study, but they don't do. They learn, but they don't grow. And they're experts, but they don't change. And they like people like that. And so some of it is you need to be around high potential, high octane individuals who want to change the world and want to keep growing. And there's a greater possibility in 15 years, you guys are still going to be having conversations. Yeah. So some of the questions in the assessment were asking about those things around, like, do you think knowledge is power and all this stuff? Yeah. Just connecting the dots. If you were to tick all of those boxes, would you be more of a professor potentially?

35:24Or which communication frequency would you be leaning more towards if you were to be a big believer in just knowledge? The professor frequency is a knowledge frequency. Yeah. And you know a person using a professor frequency when they're always teaching what they learned. It's all about data. It's about facts. It's about information. and it's that theme of a mind is a terrible thing to waste. So I'm going to put what's inside of my brain inside of your brain and that's how we're going to relate together as a human being. Yeah, I was looking at these questions and all the questions around truth and like, I just don't like truth.

36:05It's your lowest frequency. Yeah. Yes. Because for me, I just truly don't believe there's a lot of facts. like we can count maybe a lot of them are all interpreted and interpretations in my head. And I look at these things, I see that most facts that people believe are actually just imaginary ceilings they're placing in their life. And this is my thought. There's a lot of truth to that, but there's also a lot of truth to the fact that I think it's your seventh frequency, if I remember correctly. And I just glanced at it right before we came on. And so that means there's a lot of facts that you might miss that are readily available to you.

36:45Yeah. And so you might be going to have people on your team to go, your job is to make sure I'm getting the information I might not look at. And I may discount it. It's not on you for me to accept it. It's just on you for you to put it in front of me. And by the way, I totally get where you're coming from. I was speaking at this event. It had an interesting name. It was called the 100 Million Mastermind. Everyone in the mastermind had to make minimally$100 million a year in their company, and they paid 100 grand just to be in the group. And so I was one of the regular speakers at the event and usually speak twice every few months.

37:27But one of the guys who was there, he told me and told us he had the highest IQ in the world. He's from Scotland. And they made a TV show called Scorpion around him. He broke into the NSA or something like that through his computer at 14 or something like that and got arrested. You know, crazy story, right? And he has a huge company. But so he has the highest IQ in the world. And I spoke and I guess they told him, hey, you and Erwin need to have a conversation. So I'm sitting at lunch and he sits next to me and he says, I'm told that a conversation between us is inevitable. And it felt really ominous.

38:05And I said, wow, I am inevitable. That's kind of awesome. And he said two things really interesting. He said, I listened to your talk and I disagreed with half of everything you said. I said, oh, well, thank you. And he said, yeah, the facts do not support you. and all I have to do is show you the facts and show you that you're wrong. And I said, this is great. You know, it's just, and I kept listening. And so I had to speak again. Imagine having to speak again right after that with him sitting right in front of you. So I got up there and I thought, I might as well just start here. So I said, Walter and I had lunch.

38:47And as you know, Walter has the highest IQ in the world. And so we both are holding up the two ends on the IQ spectrum. And I said, and Walter said he disagreed with half of everything I said, which means the smartest man in the world agreed with half of everything I said. So I'm making huge progress. But then I said, but Walter, you also said that the facts were against me. And I said, you're absolutely right. I said, the facts are always against me because the facts are always against the future and they're always for the past. So, Walter, the facts may be on your side, but the future is on mine.

39:30And I think that's a part of the dynamic of it is that there are facts I need to know, but the facts do not reveal the future. They can conceal it. That's profound. When you're operating in too much facts, you take away all the magic of life as well because there's no creation. There's this creation element that goes away when you're just too fact-driven. If you know all the facts, you know everything that can be known, not everything that will be known. Yeah. By the way, he called me at home. He got my number. It made me nervous because his company also eliminates people around the world. And he solves problems.

40:13That's what he told me. He goes, I solve problems. That's why he uses facts. Yeah. So he calls me at home and he's very upset. He goes, hey, I just heard your talk on seven frequencies of communication, because I did it the day before at the event. And he goes, I really disagree with you. And I said, okay, Walter, tell me what. He said, you said the professor frequency is only and all about data. Because I said, professor frequencies are data-driven. And I said, I did say that. He goes, and I thought he was going to disagree with me. He said, what else is there? I said, what are the other frequencies driven by?

40:52All the frequencies have to be driven by data. And I thought this was the perfect example of exactly what I was saying. This frequency isn't just the style. It is the neurological process through which you see reality. And that's why you communicate this way. And I said, well, you know, there are other frequencies, Walter, like, you know, and he goes, like, or other ways of knowing, I said. besides facts. He goes, like what? I said, like love? He goes, nah, love's just data. And later he came up with an entire construct on happiness and how to become happy through data-driven processes, which by the way is exactly what another of my friends did who teaches happiness at Harvard University, who's also a professor of frequency.

41:41And when someone, when I was doing a Q and a with him and someone asked, what do you do with human emotions? He said, you need to remember all emotions are simply data. Yeah. I, I, uh, uh, Elliot by the screen talks. He says things every now and then around, like, let's try and like come up with a formula to find our dream partner and all this stuff. And I just, I just go like, I just don't resonate with that approach a lot. I just think that there's this element of beauty in not knowing and not having this exact thing. That's your seer frequency. Yeah. Because if everything, imagine, if you came to the conclusion that everything that can be known has been known, I don't think you could wake up in the morning and have a reason to live.

42:37it's the uncertainty is the thing it's the wonder yeah yeah and that's why things that are more uncertain are typically more valuable when you achieve them because you didn't really know how or when or what that was going to look like right and by the way it's one of the reasons i find atheism to be very um mundane because when you're an atheist, you're saying that something cannot exist outside of your ability to know it. And that is one of the most limiting constructs that a human being could ever take on. That's fascinating.

43:19Yeah. Because do you think it's quite a closed-minded approach too because you're closing off any opportunity for anything else? Oh, no, absolutely. I mean, maybe I'm so open-minded that, you know, I need to have some closure. But when people ask me, you know, do I think this can exist? I go, I think anything can exist. Like, I don't think even my ability to perceive it or to conceptualize it or to contemplate it is a limitation. Like, just because I can't imagine doesn't mean it can't exist. and and so I I was at this event called renaissance it's uh it's like the TED conference I used to go to TED for like 20 years and this was more in Carmel it was all these intellectuals and researchers and scientists and but I was kind of happy to go with my wife because I thought no one would know me and I could have like this wonderful three days of just exploring information about reality and I the moment I get there I'm in line to get coffee and some guy identifies me and says hey, you're McManus and you believe in God, right?

44:28And I'm like, honestly, I didn't want to have that conversation. I was like, I'm just here to get coffee. I'm just here to learn about the universe and science and botany and, you know, have a great time. And I said, yeah. And he goes, so I'm going to, I got a question for you. Do you really believe that the sun stood still? And in the Bible, it has a story about the sun standing still. And the moment he said that all these other people go, wait, don't answer the question. We want to grab our coffee in here. So next thing I know, I got a little crowd of all these elitist intellectuals, you know, wanting to know if I am so dumb and, you know, and so dull that I believe that the sun sits still.

45:07And he goes, okay, now answer it. Do you really believe the sun sits still? And I said, well, I hope you know that the sun does stand still.

45:20It's actually the earth that's moving around the sun.

45:27And it was a great first moment. And they said, yeah, but yeah, but do you believe in these miracles in the Bible? And I remember saying to him, I said, I believe that what is outside of my realm of possibility can exist. I do not believe my intellectual capacity is the measure of all reality. So I actually think my posture should be your posture. What I don't know, I have to be open to. Yeah. And I guess if someone's sharing something, that means that that is their reality because that's what they feel, that's what they believe and so you shutting that down just literally by virtue of you shutting that down is a pretty ridiculous concept because if they're saying it they're feeling it and that's their reality one one thing that um you're talking about these frequencies and how it flows through everything in your life i believe i shared it the other day on a podcast but uh i did this like i went to this retreat and it was a uh it was called vision quests and finding out what your thing is And one of the exercises, we had to do this big 120-page booklet.

46:38And there was like meditation all day and all this different thing. One of them was like coming up with a purpose statement, but it was really refined. It was only five words. And it's I am a and then two words. And we had like all this process we had to go through. And the final one that I landed on was I am a curious educator. And I was like, I liked it, but I wasn't quite sold on it. So then what I did was I started like expanding on the words. So I started like writing the curious and the educator and then I put like a bubble on each and then I like expanded out what I'm curious about and then I expanded from there.

47:13And then in the educate pillar, I expanded like what I like to educate, what areas I do and all of this. And then we got to the end of the exercise and the main guy, Rick, told everyone to go around and share their purpose statement. And it comes to me and I hold up this page and I go, so I'm a curious educator. so this is what I'm really curious at and this is what I really love to educate in and then Rick goes do you realize what you just did he's like you were curious so you unpacked all of these things and then when it came to your turn you decided to educate what you learned about yourself to everyone in the room right now and I just went it's funny how we actually operate in this way and when we go through these certain processes like of unpacking these things like the way we unpack it is literally the answer we're going to get it's like the like bike unpacking that i'm a curious educator i was being curious and educating in the process and it's funny i wonder how many things in our life we're just like we're doing and then like moments like that happen where i go i'm actually operating in this frequency with everything that i'm doing like when i'm young and And I'm teaching my dad how to fish when I'm learning a new way of fishing from someone that's better than me.

48:32And I wonder how far back all of these things go. And I guess what you're explaining as well is you can notice when kids are just born and in their infancies that these things can happen. Yeah. And it's kind of, I think, a really beautiful thing because, one, whenever you have more of something in a culture, the more language you have to describe it. And so the Inuit Eskimos have over 30 different words for snow. But where I'm from in El Salvador, we didn't have, really had one word for snow, Nyevut. And the same word we use for ice cream because you could double up on cold things because we didn't have cold things.

49:12And I think in Indonesia, there are like 20, 30, 40 different ways to say green because it's so lush and green. So the more you have of something, the more language you have. When I was growing up, if a person was psychologically broken, you would just say they're crazy They're insane They're mad And I was pretty much it Now we use language of bipolar, schizophrenic, manic depressive, ADHD, ADD We have an endless language because we have more mental illness or mental awareness than we had then and ironically with communication, we've not treated communication as one of those central connecting points for humans.

50:00Because the reason I wrote the book wasn't so that you could communicate better, but so you could connect better. Because what humans long for is connection. But you cannot have deep human connection without communication. But what we assume, because we say, let's communicate, right? That means that you communicate exactly the same way I do. We use the exact same language. but those are all false assumptions. And maybe it's because I speak multiple languages. Spanish was my first language and I learned English later. And I've studied so many languages that I realize every language has nuances.

50:32It's not just that there are linguistic differences. Inside of those languages, there are different realities that exist. Like in English, you say, I broke this. But in Spanish, you say, se quebró, which means it broke. We take no personal responsibility. And so you can actually see in the culture, there's a lower likelihood that we'll take personal responsibility for something that goes wrong. But in English, you take high responsibility. It's hidden in the language. It's the same way with frequencies. My wife's number one frequency is commander. I've been married 42 years. And let me tell you, that would have been an easy crisis for us if I had not learned that my wife communicates from a frequency that's very different than mine.

51:18And so every night before I go to bed, I say, I love you, honey. And then Kim says, lock the doors and turn off the lights. She gives me two commands every night. And sometimes, you know, when I'm in a kind of a spicy mood, I'll say, oh, thank you so much. I was going to leave them unlocked and leave all the lights on. And this is like so insightful. Thank you. And it's just like no more of that. But most of the time I just go, yes, honey, I'll lock the doors and turn off the lights. And what she's actually communicating to me is I need you to keep me safe. And I need you to be responsible for our resources.

52:02And then sometimes when she asks me, I realize that she's saying, I just need to know you're here for me. But because her frequency is commander frequency, everything comes as a to-do. And, you know, I've tried to help my wife change. And one day she just said, I like the way I do this. I said, yeah, but it's very utilitarian. Every moment you're telling me what to do. She goes, it's very clear. But if I use commander with her, it wouldn't go well. And so I have to learn not only how she communicates, but how she hears. My son's primary frequency is also commander. So I have a wife and a son and I'm surrounded with commanders.

52:43But Aaron, he communicates with command, but he loves hearing from command. It drives him crazy that I'm so elusive and so obscure. And you go, dad, when you communicate, it's like a vapor. You've given us this brilliant idea and we have no idea what to do. We just want you to tell us what to do. And so he's a commander who likes a commander frequency. My wife's a commander who doesn't like a commander frequency. So you have to learn. And imagine if you're paying attention to your team and go, all right, I'm a challenger. That's my frequency. So I need to let my team know sometimes I'm not mad at them.

53:19I'm actually just challenging us because that's the way I challenge. That's the way I communicate. Sometimes I'm actually really happy with what you've done. And I'm really proud of you. But I think that's obvious. So I don't want to go back and reflect on that. I just want to bring the next thing. But also you might have someone on your team who's a healer. And so every time you command, they're wounded. or you might have someone on your team that is a motivator and like, I just wish she would just like tell me I'm awesome a few times. Right. And so you have to learn how to communicate with your team.

53:51Imagine if you, I don't know how big your team is, but you know, imagine if you knew the frequencies of all your team. And as a leader, you said, it's not just their job to hear me at my frequency it's my job to be able to speak to them in their frequency yeah so understanding them i mean in some sales training i did back in the day talking about communication styles of like the the the quadrant the dominant um uh influence but the other term having steadiness and compliance yeah yeah and uh and oh disc disc yeah yeah yeah i remember i remember going through those but this is kind of like the next step further of it's like it's like that on steroids you're the you're you're one i think i read in the book uh is it maven paving i'm a maven maven and there's something unique about that one specifically well i wish they were all proportional but they're not yeah there are more of one than there are of others and so there there are more uh challengers and motivators and healers, and there are commanders and seers.

55:00And so it has a diminishing effect in some ways because the more dominant ones impact more people. So as a challenger, you're going to impact a lot of people. When you're a motivator, you impact a lot of people. When you're a seer, you're very rare because a seer frequency is more rare than a motivator frequency. The Maven frequency is an interesting frequency because it's the most rare and probably has the least large impact. And I've always thought about it, and I'm a person of faith. I came into a relationship with Jesus in college, and I've always thought to myself, if I did not become a person of faith, I don't know if I would have engaged humanity.

55:43I think I would have engaged ideas. I was a philosopher, and I love the world of ideas. I love the world of invention. And I spent my life studying people like Leonardo da Vinci and trying to understand the complexities of what makes us human. And only really the shift in my life of connecting to God made me prioritize humanity as my focus of trying to serve the world. And so as a maven, I see the world very, very differently. And my frequency is very hard to understand. And I've had to work really, really hard to be understood. And sometimes, you know, my kids are great. You know, they still work with me.

56:25My son works with me in the business world. My daughter works with me in the church faith world. And they'll come to me and say, hey, dad, that talk was so extraordinary. No one knows what you said, you know. And I don't know. And that's the part that matters the most to me. The part that no one knows what I said, that's the part that means the most to me. and so I think this past week well I mean I've done talks on like fractals like usually you don't hear on Sunday someone explaining how fractals affect your own spiritual dynamic I've done talks on black holes and you know quantum mechanics and quantum physics and integrating all these sciences into our own humanity and spiritual journey and that's a part of being a maven is you know mavens see the world from outside of the box and they don't try to look at the world differently.

57:18They don't know how to see the world the same. And it was really challenging. And that's why I think by the time I was 10 years old, I was in a psychiatric chair and I was in and out of a hospital and my mom didn't know what to do with me. And a lot of it was because I felt like I didn't belong in this world. And I couldn't find anyone who understood me and I couldn't understand people very well. It took me a lot of work to connect myself to people at a deep level. And, you know, and I cannot tell you, it's funny. My wife, you know, she's a very like staunch, like Christian in the, in the, almost in the classic way.

57:55Right. You know, and I'll share ideas. I've shared ideas with her and she'll say, you're going to hell. She'll literally look at me and, and then say, you are, you're just going to hell. And I go, how is having an idea like a violation of eternity? Right. You know, and I'll tell her things and she'll go, please don't tell anyone. Please never share that thought with the world. And, and I usually hold it back and then I do share it with the world. So that's a part of it. And I've come to realize my greatest impact, which is why I do a lot of like, um, high level coaching. Like my primary role in life, I think is to affect the best thinkers, leaders, um, and performers in the world.

58:36I do better with them because they're in that top 1%. They're willing to make the hard choices to be great. I'm not as good with average. I'm just really bad with that. You know, because average just needs to be told what to do. Like you don't have to work that hard to be average. You just be average. All right. And everything that takes an elevation takes a different level of thinking. And so, but the downside of a maven is that they become a nihilist. So every movie that the world ends badly, that's probably a maven writing it that's in their shadow. It's like end of the world. We're eaten by a virus.

59:16We're eaten up by humans. It's like the Walking Dead kind of thing. The world, it's post-apocalyptic. It's Blade Runner. It's funny how no one ever imagines the future as better. Everyone imagines the future as coming to a bleak end. And that's a bunch of mavens writing out of their shadows saying there's no hope for the world. There's no hope for humanity. I feel like you're such a big optimist though. I am. So how does that combat with your maven frequency? Well, when I was in a psychiatric chair and in a hospital, I wasn't an optimist. I could not see a future. I couldn't find meaning in life.

1:00:01I would be in a fetal position at the age of nine.

1:00:08I was in angst over whether life was meaningless and whether our significance actually mattered and whether we're a speck of dust in the backdrop of the universe. And, you know, how do you deal with a nine-year-old that is in an existential crisis? And it got so bad that I would run away. It's either sleepwalk in El Salvador or run away. And I would go out to fields. And I convinced myself I was from another world. and that I was a social experiment, that they'd put me and maybe some other people on this planet to see if we could integrate with humans. And I would scream at night, this isn't working, please take me home.

1:00:53I don't want to be here anymore. And so I would say I was a pretty well-developed nihilist by the age of nine or 10. and I had to fight my way out of that despair. And it wasn't an easy thing. What were the feelings you were feeling back then? Do you have any vivid memories from 10 years old in that psychiatric chair? Is that what you're saying? Oh, yeah, yeah, quite a few. I mean, one, I was a straight D student, you know, and I started living in an internal world and would stop coming out. And so I remember being in school where I would become aware and all of a sudden the whole class was gone.

1:01:38The teacher just gave up trying to bring me back. And they would just leave and go to recess or wherever they went. And every year I would tell myself, this year I'm going to pay attention. Like this year I'm going to make A's. This year I'm going to be a good student. And within a few weeks, I wouldn't even remember where my classes are. I wouldn't even remember where I put my books. I was having a hard time rooting myself in reality because I lived in an imaginary world. And I don't really always talk that deeply about this, but I had created a complete internal world where I knew people in that world.

1:02:19And so when I would come back to this reality, I missed those people. And I felt like I belonged there, not here. And so I was probably as close to a psychotic break as a human being could be. And if anyone's maybe listening and they feel like they have those kind of internal struggles, I mean, I did two things that I think saved my life. One was before I had any awareness really of like God or anything like that. I told myself to look at beauty. and so probably around the age of 10 or 11 I started paying attention to beautiful things and I became an aesthetic uh and and probably turned me into an artist that's why I designed clothes and you know and um and loved creating art uh so I just started looking at beautiful things flowers trees grass buildings sunrises sunsets to the point where I became so much of an aesthetic my family would make fun of me once I got married and had kids one day we were doing a mountain climb.

1:03:23They were way ahead of me. And I turned the corner going up this ridge and I saw these rocks and I saw this one flower coming out of the ridge. I said, everyone, everyone come back. I want you to see something. And they all started laughing. They made a bet that I would see that flower and make them all come back and see it. And it's because I just developed this king awareness of beauty and wonder all around me. And then when my kids were little, I would just, you know, we'd pull the car over when we saw a field and we'd go and run through the fields and eat the flowers. And I just wanted to teach them that there was beauty and wonder all around them.

1:03:54And that, it saved me. And in a very real way, beauty saved my life. Because then I realized, oh my goodness, it was always there. Like the beautiful was always around me. It was resplendent. It was overwhelming. And so yeah, I'm an optimist now because it's like, I know that I just, beauty, wonder awe is everywhere to be seen if I just open my eyes. So yeah, I'm a ridiculously optimistic human being. And I don't even have to work at it now. It's weird. Optimism is just the essence of my being. And my wife will get really frustrated. She's more pessimistic. And I'll say, honey, could you just stop being pessimistic?

1:04:37And 40 years of marriage, she'll say, no, I like being a pessimist. You need to stop being so optimistic. It's driving me crazy. Do you think that the feeling you had at 10 is a nature or nurture thing that's led you to that position? I think it's both. We're all raised by imperfect humans. So you really can't blame it on the humans that came before us. It's like no one had perfect parents. But I did have some trauma. When my mom was pregnant with me, she was only 19 years old. She already had my brother. And my father, best I can understand, threw her down a flight of stairs trying to cause an abortion and broke her leg.

1:05:22And when my mom gave birth to me, she became a Pan Am stewardess and left my brother with our grandparents. So our first few years of our life, we never knew our father. And my mom was traveling in the States as a stewardess. So when she came back and brought us to the States, it was pretty traumatic. I still remember seeing this person that I only knew through a photograph in my mind. And my grandparents, to me, were my parents. So when they took me away from them, I was losing my parents. And then I don't have a real clear image or memory of my real father. So, yeah, so I had real trauma. That was a part of it.

1:06:04But I was just also different. One thing that really helped me is I gave my mom the seven frequencies. She's 88 years old. So it's kind of cool giving her the seven frequencies. And I gave it to my brother, Alex. And my mom and my brother had the exact same top three frequencies. And so I realized, oh, she didn't love him more. She just understood him better. And then when I saw their number seven frequency, they both had the number seven frequency of my number one frequency. And so here I am, this kid that's a maven. I see the world in an unorthodox, unusual way. And then my family is the opposite of the way I communicate, the way I see reality.

1:06:50And so it wasn't that they didn't love me, but they certainly didn't understand me. And it had an effect on so many different fields of my life. When I took geometry, I never went to class hardly. I skipped school all the time. It's like 50, 60 days. I just, and I took a geometry test and I didn't know that I aced it. I think I got a hundred on it, but I thought I failed it. Right. You know, that's what I expected. So when I came to class the next time, the professor in front of the whole class accused me of cheating. And I actually said, why would someone cheat to get an F? Like, you know, and he showed me my test.

1:07:30It was on proofs and I'd never studied proofs, but I realized he had broken the test down into quadrants. And there were like five problems in each quadrant. And so what I did is I looked at the problems in each quadrant and realized they're probably all similar. So I answered them as a whole and was able to get all the right answers. And they thought I cheated. So they put me in a portable by myself to take the tests. And so I looked back and I realized that I didn't just have like trauma in my family. I also had a hard time expressing that I was actually good at some things, but I didn't know how I was good at them.

1:08:07But I thought I was bad at everything because of the way people responded to me. So by the time I'm finishing high school, I think, one, I was told I was retarded. So I thought, okay, I'm mentally challenged and I'm not going to accomplish anything in my life. So I didn't go to college right away. I just lived a meaningless life. And probably my worst day was me sleeping in my car in the winter of North Carolina, wondering, is this what my life is going to be? Yeah. Do you feel like that gave you the drive to be this type A person? And do you feel like when you first embarked on this journey of betterment and self-improvement and hunger to achieve greatness, maybe it was fueled from some shadow?

1:08:53Everyone's fueled by shadow. I'm going to say that. Every entrepreneur I know has something that pushes them and something that pulls them. What pushes you is usually the brokenness. And what pulls you is hopefully a wholeness. But I said the first thing that changed me was beauty. But the second thing that really did change me was Jesus. And I think that's actually when I became ambitious. I didn't care about things like heaven. And that just felt so innocuous or just weird or fluff to me. I wanted to know if humans had a reason to exist. And so for me, having studied every philosophy I could find and reading everything from the Stoics and all the way through modern philosophy and coming to a conclusion that maybe there is just no truth and no reality and there is my nihilism.

1:09:45And I thought I'd discounted Christianity until I finally had this moment of epiphany where I realized every world religion tells you what you need to do to get to God. But Jesus was the only one who told you what God did to get to you. And so I thought, all right, this is not consistent to every religious narrative in the world. This is the one inconsistent narrative. So it might be the one that's true. and you know i wish i could say i did massive research but i didn't i just basically said god if you're real i want to know and jesus if you're god like i'm going to just trust you i'm going to give you my life and in that moment for me it was it was significant because if god saw me i mattered like if god created me my life had intention it was not accidental or arbitrary And so the moment I had that kind of epiphany, you know, and it's like I woke up the next day and I really was a different person.

1:10:48And people talk about like, you know, going from bad to good. That wasn't it for me. It was going from emptiness to meaning. Like it went from, I don't know why I'm here. You know, I'm just sort of here for the beer. It's like, you know, that kind of life. and then now going, oh, I'm created to actually make an impact on the world to make the world better. I can solve big problems. Someone could solve the problems of poverty or injustice or economic instability. Why not me? And so everything just shifted. It's almost like a turbine turned on inside of my soul and went, let's do something that matters and let's leave a mark in human history so that when you die, it mattered that you lived.

1:11:33And that was a turning point for me. Yeah. Also that feeling of like, as you're explaining that you're meant to be here, you were, and maybe you lacked that feeling when you were growing up as well. Oh yeah. Do you think the reason your relationship, you've been with your wife for 42 years, Do you think the reason that's been able to stay strong for so long, even though what you're explaining so much in this conversation is like you guys are so different? Oh, so different. Do you think the reason it's been able to be strong is because you've got Christ at the center? Or what would you say is some advice on keeping and maintaining an amazing relationship?

1:12:17Yeah. I mean, I do, I do think that, and I liked the way you said that we've stayed together because Christ is at the center because I don't think I would have made it. And I don't think she would have made it because I wasn't easy to live with. And, uh. And she wasn't easy to live with. I think she's easy. To me, she's easier to live with than I am. I'm going to say that because this is going, this is going public. Just make sure you lock the doors and turn the lights off every night. I think that she was, my wife was an orphan, left starving when she was eight years old in a government project, lived in a foster home from the age of eight to 18, was never told I love you one time, living on clothes from the Salvation Army, being rationed when she was allowed to use water.

1:13:09and was a child slave picking tobacco on a farm. She had the hardest life that a person probably in the United States could have. So I think that, yes, she has a lot of trauma and that made it hard. But it also made it easy for me because when I married Kim, I didn't marry Kim thinking, oh, she's going to meet all my needs. I can say if I've ever done anything that I'm really proud of I married Kim because I felt it would be a privilege to love someone who never knew love and so I never thought about leaving because she wasn't meeting my expectations because my whole purpose for marrying her was to try to be an expression of unconditional love and and it's the reason I'll be with her till we die.

1:14:05Because I think she deserves to be loved without condition. And with me, I was always such a ridiculous risk taker, and I probably jeopardized us so many times in our life that it took a lot for her to hold on and stay with me. But after decades, she's really come to trust me. So I think Christ being at the center was huge, but I also think there's two things. There's trust and there's forgiveness. You can't hold onto a marriage if you don't forgive. And so if you decide to get married, you have to decide that your bank of forgiveness can never expire because that person is going to need it the entire way through.

1:14:52Kim's had to forgive me a million times. I've had to forgive Kim a million times, and that's a part of it. And in the business space, this is the trust part. I had a company, was doing pretty well. In two years, it was fairly solvent and it was a fashion company and a film company and a tech company. And I had a partner who woke up one day and they stole everything. So I lost like six to$10 million in one day. And they wanted me to fly to New York to negotiate to fight for my company. They stole it to make me come and fight for it. And I said, I'm not going to fight you for it. You can have everything.

1:15:36And I flew home that next day and I sat down with my wife having coffee that I could no longer afford. And I said, honey, I lost everything. And her immediate response to me without blinking an eye, without hesitation, was I thought I was your everything. I thought, who says that? No one says that except in a movie. And I didn't have a great romantic response. I said, well, I lost my other everything that funds my everything. And then Kim looked at me and said, we've been poor before. We slept on the floor because we couldn't afford a bed years before. She said, we've been poor before and you've always found a way.

1:16:17We're poor now and you will find a boy, she never blinked an eye in trusting me that I would create a better future with her. And it's interesting, our kids were adults at that time. They're in their 20s. And they both came to me and said, dad, that was the wrong partner for you. God's just freeing you up to create something even better, which we did. And so I think those are the two things that have really helped us, forgiveness and trust. And that's helped us sustain. And of course, for us, obviously, Jesus being at the center of that. I feel like that's what every man really wants. Yeah. Trust.

1:16:56Yeah.

1:17:01Because that assurance of, you know, I'm here for you and we've got this and it's a team. and having that trust in, yeah, I believe that what you believe is going to work. And if you believe it, then I believe it. And that trust, and if it doesn't, then that's okay. We're still here. Yeah. I feel like whenever I hear that, I just go, that's all I really want. Yeah. And I know this may sound old school, but I generally think wives want to be adored. they want to know that you want her more than anyone and men want to be respected and he the guy wants to know that you believe in me and that you believe in my talents my ability and and so i i know we live in a world where everything's supposed to be the same but it's not the same you know and when when i look at kim and and she feels like she's the only one i want it's like everything just lines up and when she looks at me and goes i just believe in you i just respect the man you are it just all lines up for me and so i think it's a little different but it's a part of the chemistry of it i can't agree more yeah it's trying to blend us all into the same takes away the magic that we actually have yeah absolutely it yeah it's not the same and by doing that you're stripping away actually what makes it great yeah and perhaps perhaps that is a slight problem with the culture right now and with the messaging and the way that a lot of things are going down is it's steering away from that traditional thing because of progression and I often wonder is that actually helping um you know and you know whenever I speak to people that uh have faith at the core and they're religious you know they do lean more towards that traditional view and obviously like it makes sense because they're practicing what they preach but uh I see that there's this underlying level of connection that they have that's a bit more, they radiate a greater energy.

1:19:31And I often wonder, you know, like we spoke about this off air around the best way to communicate faith to increase the adoption of faith because there's so many ways of people communicating faith and it just makes me repel faith more. and uh i don't want to repel faith and i never i never do but it certainly doesn't get me closer towards it when i hear people say things in certain ways but when i see people like yourself even just from the moment you've walked in you've just got this like smiley happy nature about you it's like you just you're laughing at things like before we record you go okay you just don't know anything and it's so great the way she smiled and and and said it it's it's so good um you're a pastor and you you have a you have a chain of churches uh called mosaic yeah yeah called mosaic what's your message that you share um and and in more of a lens of of like someone that maybe is an atheist or someone that is and i'm not atheist i believe there's something there i'm not religious but this can't all be me you know i interviewed a uh a surfer led hamilton um uh the other week and and he's like people ask me all the time like how do you know god exists and he's like just look like look around like look at everything he's like he's like come on now and uh and i i resonate with more of like that approach and i hear that and i go like yeah that that makes sense but when someone comes over to me when I'm loving my life and they're like, you're going to go to hell.

1:21:23I don't resonate with that and I don't connect with it. And, um, and, and, you know, there's a common thing that I, I feel, and there's someone probably the most researched person that I've ever spoken to about religion. He's read the Bible hundreds of times and every religion, he just seems to know everything about everything. And, and he's like the biggest thing, correct me if I'm wrong here, but he's like the biggest thing Jesus hated was religion because it came to separate people. He was like, it's Christians and us, Jews and us, Muslims and us. And I just look at people that radiate this infectious energy and most of the time they have some sort of relationship to a God.

1:22:04So I don't want to dismiss that. But I know this is a long winded way to say this, but what's your message to people that maybe are a little bit on the fence of where they sit and what's your way of sharing the word? Yeah, I think most people think they've rejected God, but what they've actually rejected are people who believe in God, who handled it in a really offensive way. And so that's the first thing is don't let people get in the way of God. And because unfortunately, we humans are imperfect and we bring all of our trauma and all of our mess into our message. And I don't really ever try to, I don't feel any need to try to force anyone to do anything.

1:22:52I don't feel the need to even try to convince people. I just think what people long for is to be fully alive. And I think my number one responsibility in life is to be fully alive so that I can be proof of life so that someone else might go. How did you find that? And so I feel like my responsibility is to be proof that Jesus is real. Not through argument, not through even evidence, just through my essence and my personhood as a person. I started Mosaic because religion didn't fit me. And I wanted to create a space for people who are outliers, who are explorers and pioneers and entrepreneurs and inventors and creators, who did have a sense perhaps that something was still there that they couldn't understand.

1:23:41And so I think, you know, I really am not like a person that would sit here and try to argue with you that Jesus is real. But I am a person who would say that I have experienced the reality of Jesus. And if that's something that you want to explore, then I would say I love having conversations with people about that. because I can't even believe this. I wrote a book called The Genius of Jesus because I'm in my back house going, how is it possible that I believe in Jesus? I mean, literally having this conversation with myself going, I can't believe I actually believe in God. I can't believe I believe in Jesus.

1:24:16This is insane. On top of that, my whole life revolves around someone who lived 2000 years ago. I'm in my back house having this kind of moment with myself. And then I said, what if he isn't real? My whole life revolves around someone who wasn't real. And I go, yeah, but you can't deny that you've been changed by him. So that's real. I go, okay, so then if he isn't real and I've been changed by him, then I was changed by the idea of him, which then becomes the most powerful idea that has ever existed in human history. So I've either been changed by the reality of Jesus or the idea of Jesus. And that's how I end up writing this book going, all right, let's look at Jesus as an idea.

1:24:55Yeah. And so what was Jesus's idea? And if it changed human history for 2 ,000 years, that would qualify as genius. So why isn't Jesus seen as a genius? And I've seen Muhammad on the list of geniuses and Buddha on the list of geniuses, but I've never seen Jesus. And the reason is because what Jesus accomplished can't be limited to human genius. Even people who simply study genius as an anthropological study know that what Jesus has impacted in human history can't be described as genius. It goes beyond that. And so for me, I'm like, I actually think all of creation, everything around us is screaming at us, telling us you're created for more.

1:25:46You're created for love. You're created with intention. And the way I understand Jesus is God is the name I use when I'm looking for him, but Jesus is the name when I finally realized he's looking for me. And, you know, Chris, before I walked in, you were a name in my phone, but not someone I knew. But now there's texture to the name. And so now Chris means something different. I knew the name of Jesus, but it was like knowing the name of Chris. But then when I came into an encounter with Jesus, there's texture and reality to his name. And so I would just say there's really two clear options. Either nothing can be known and somehow we're just, we exist in this existential and meaningless moment.

1:26:35Or God created us for a relationship with him. And that all of this is this incredible story in which God is trying to reveal himself to us. And every religion tells you this is what you need to do to get to God. Even Buddhism, this is what you need to do to get to enlightenment. This, you know, Islam, this is what you need to get Allah's approval. Like even within Catholicism, these are the things you got to do to get forgiveness and get to heaven. But that's not what Jesus taught. What Jesus actually said is everything you're doing is religion and it's not going to get you there. It's a Tower of Babel.

1:27:11You're just never going to get to God. It's what God did to get to us. And that's the difference in the message of Jesus. that God stepped into human history on our behalf, that he took on flesh and blood because he wanted us to see him. He died on a cross so that through his death, we could have life. And he rose from the dead so he could know that not death, not suffering, that nothing can actually conquer love. And that's to me is like, it's the greatest love story that's ever been written that God has come for me. And so it's one of those things where I go, if this isn't true, it should be.

1:27:51And if it isn't real, then there is nothing that is real. And so I'm putting all the weight of my life in this truth, that Jesus has come for me, and that he's changed my life, and that he makes me fully human. And that's what he's inviting us into and that's what i would say it's the best i think it's this way of just showing up in that way yeah like if you were if you were just a person that was negative the whole time you walked in here and then you were rude and not polite then you were telling me everything that you just said like that's a sack of shit respectfully but you showed up in that way and i think the thing that draws people to it and you hit the nail on the head.

1:28:38It's never a moment of like, preach unless they ask. It's more of a, I'm just going to show up in the way that Jesus would want me to. And people are going to feel so gravitated towards me. They're going to be like, what is he doing differently? How is he showing up in this way? Do you feel like if we think about, you know, there's this spiritual approach of like everyone being connected to each other and there's this energy that radiates through everyone. Do you resonate with those sorts of views and do you feel like there's this element of us that we're all connected in some way, shape or form through frequency and whatever you might call it?

1:29:22Oh, absolutely. In fact, that would be one of the things that in some ways makes Mosaic different than a lot of established churches is that, I mean, I think last year or a couple of years ago, I was doing a talk on particles and quantum entanglement and how what you know scientifically is that when two particles interact and then separate, even if they go across the universe, those two particles are still interconnected. Which explains in many ways how is it someone could come into your life when you're five years old and then 23 years in the making, that person is still impacting your life. It's because there's a quantum entanglement.

1:30:01Your particles are still connected to that person. See, whether you like it or not, we're now in a quantum entanglement, you and I. I will never have an existence that isn't impacted by the particles of who you are, and you'll never have an existence, a part of the particles of who I am. And so the entire universe is interconnected. It communicates with itself. The universe has a consciousness. But this is what I think sometimes we misunderstand. understand when people talk about, you know, the universe has consciousness, the consciousness isn't out there. Humans are the consciousness of the universe.

1:30:37Only through humanity does the universe have a sense of self-awareness. Not even other species on this planet have a sense of self-awareness. We're the only ones. So we're like this optimal expression of creation, which is kind to call. So do you think if we're reacting negatively to a certain thing with someone, it's just telling us a bit about ourself? Because if we're all connected in the sense of like this, we're all connected here. If you're looking at someone in a negative way, perhaps there's something about you that you don't fully love and maybe it's coming out of you through them. that can very much be true.

1:31:21When you have a negative reaction to someone, it can be one of two things. There is a resonance to someone else that they remind you of. Their resonance matches someone else's resonance. And so you go a warning or there's a resonance to your darkness. And you go, oh, I know this is dark about me and I see it in them. And so sometimes we're not even aware what we're rejecting is the darkness in us, which is actually very, very true. So it can be one or the other, but whether we like it or not, we are definitely all interconnected. and when you think about even just some of the dynamics of quantum mechanics when you think about the fact that there are things happening in South America that are impacting things in Europe that we're completely unaware of that's also true on an interpersonal and human level which I think is one of the reasons why prayer it's funny when people mock saying things like thoughts and prayers and yet they're the same people who later talk about manifestation and manifesting your thoughts.

1:32:31Like thoughts actually have power and prayers actually have power because we're all interconnected. It's part of the communication system of it all. And I have experimented in these worlds and have some fun moments and stories. And I have hundreds of people have seen some of the experiences I've had where one time I was at this fair, there might've been 500 to 1 ,000 people around there. And I had one of those dunking booths and everyone was hitting that dunking booth target, but it wouldn't go down. And they were missing it. Even when they hit it, it wouldn't go down. It was stuck. And so I was walking across the park.

1:33:08They saw me and said, hey, come and try the dunking booth. And so I was pretty far away. I took the ball and I went to throw it as hard as I could. And the target pushed back and the guy went down. And then I threw the ball up in my hand. I'd never let go of it. And hundreds of people saw me do that. And because I didn't grow up in a traditional faith, in a traditional world, early on, I began really exploring the capacity of the human mind. I actually think humans are capable of far more than we could ever imagine. And so, you know, you're not looking at someone who has a very traditional view of human capacity.

1:33:48I think our capacity is much larger, more significant than we know. In the same way, I think that when someone speaks into your life, they're shaping the universe inside of you. And when you speak in someone's life, you're actually shaping the universe inside of them. And that's why when someone tells you when you're young, you'll never make it or you're nothing or you have no talent, they're actually creating like a black hole inside of that universe. And so I know that our words have creative power inside of the universe, inside of each other, which is why I study human communication, because I want to speak life into people and expand the universe inside of them, who they can become.

1:34:26And so when people say, oh, you know, we can manifest realities. I don't know if you can manifest the realities. I've tried that and it doesn't always work. But what I do know is I can manifest a reality inside of someone. Because when you bring hope into someone, it changes them. And just this past weekend, a mom came up to me that I did not know. She wanted to tell me a story. And at first, I didn't feel like I had time, but I just called her back and said, tell me your story. And she said, our son died. And when he died and we were pulling all those things together, we pulled up his computer and all he had been listening to were talks that you'd given.

1:35:03And we understood why our son had so much hope at the end of his life. And here I am, like one, I'm so grateful I took a moment to hear this, right? I'm speaking words that are going across the airwaves. It exists in an invisible reality. And I don't even know if some kid is struggling to die of some disease and he's listening to my words and it's giving him hope, even when others would call his life hopeless. I think we should never underestimate the power of our words, the power of your podcast, the power of your voice, which is why it's so important to help people who have a healthy inner world learn how to find their voice and to master their message and to understand the impact they can make on other people.

1:35:50I think that's coming to my mind and we don't need to go here, but perhaps that's a massive reason as to why so many of us got so affected with what happened with Charlie Kirk because of how powerful his words were and they spoke people's realities and you know like it can't just be people on this we've got to be connected when you can see what happened and you're moved physically emotionally and every way shape or form just by witnessing something and him specifically because of how powerful he was and how much he spoke to people. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about how much I was moved by what happened in a shocking negative way.

1:36:46And as you're explaining this, it's this feeling of his words had so much power. So much power that someone had to silence it. And that's when we come to a realization that our words have power. Our voices are our greatest weapon. But it wasn't just that Charlie could communicate. It was that he could think and that he put the work in to be able to articulate his message. And, you know, sometimes it could be acerbic or, you know, almost to use his words in a way that he knew he was creating a sense of controversy. but when you're fighting in the world of ideas, sometimes you have to push things to the extreme to help people see the conclusions of their thinking, which is kind of interesting because it's exactly what I did for 40 years.

1:37:43When people would argue with me, I would just go, let's take your idea and let's see how it plays out completely. And that's how you can know when idea is bad. It's even with careers. I'll have like CEOs tell me, I don't know why, but I feel log jammed. I have this opportunity to expand my company or to get a promotion or do this. I go, okay, imagine your life if you succeeded 100%. And they go, okay, do you want that life? And almost always they go, no. And I said, that's why you have a ceiling. you're actually stopping yourself from creating a life you don't want, but you're pretending it's this obstacle that's stopping you.

1:38:27It's the same way with the truth. Like when someone says to me, you know, and I don't want to be overly political, but when they, you know, I'm from El Salvador, so we have a very different perspective of the world. When someone says to me, I'm a socialist, I go, okay, let's play this out to see what it looks like. and every time you get to the final outcome, everyone's like, well, no, I don't want that. Or, you know, I'm a Muslim, like, and I'm going into the Middle East this week, you know, and play out what the world looks like if Sharia law is over all of the earth. Like, and, oh, no, I don't want that.

1:39:10Okay, let's take capitalism as messed up as it is or democracy or whatever you want to call it, meritocracy. Let's take those three concepts and play those out across the board. And so a lot of it is you have to be able to look at the 100 % success of an idea. It gives you the best view of what you're actually advocating for. And so a lot of times what Charlie would do that would upset people is that he would take a bad idea and push it to his extreme. And then people go, oh, you're a racist or you're this or that. What he was really doing was showing where that line of thinking would actually take you.

1:39:49I don't believe for a second Charlie Kirk would see a black man as a pilot on a plane and think, oh, no, I'm in trouble. I think what he was saying was, if you take the ideology of DEI and allow it to go to its full expression, you'd have to be worried. And so a lot of his arguments were using that particular approach. And that's why a lot of people will clip that and go, you see, he's this. And I go, no, no, what he was actually doing is saying, your ideology, left unchecked, would create this kind of world. And by the way, that's actually how I became a person of faith in many ways, going, if the teachings of Jesus could actually be 100 % successful, would I want that kind of world?

1:40:35And I go, oh, that world would be, oh, paradise or heaven. And so it compels me to follow Jesus because it's the best outcome when you look at the outcome at 100 % success.

1:40:50That's probably the best explanation I've heard of that. It's too short-sighted when people are hating on a certain view. They get offended by something the person didn't even really say. as well. Like the intention of what the person delivering the message isn't actually what they're perceiving it to be. That's because the person perceiving it is being quite maybe potentially short-sighted with the view and not actually unpacking it. And even just the way that you're saying, just pan that out, see how it goes. Like if everyone adopted that, what would life look like? And is that a life that you want?

1:41:28And perhaps a lot of the opinions and views that a lot of people have, they're not actually seeing that out. And there's definitely views in my life I probably have that I'm not seeing out. And it's definitely things that I don't agree with that maybe I have seen out and gone, no, that's not something that works. But applying everything through that filter is a pretty profound thing.

1:41:53I appreciate you coming on the show. Oh, it's been so much fun. It's so good to be here with you. Thank you so much. And I'll leave all of your details in the show notes description below. Is there anything you want to say before we wrap up? But, you know, one, I'm just, conversations are the best way to move life forward. And so that's why I'm so happy to be here with you. And if people want to know more, they can go to my website, erwinmcmanus.com and pick up the seven frequencies. And if you're into art and style and culture, check out Ghost Artifacts and join us there. I actually think that a huge part of what drives me, because you say you're a curious educator, is that I think I'm an explorer.

1:42:39And I love exploring all the questions of the human experience. And then behind that, I think I'm a creator. I love creating because when you create, you inspire someone else to create. And imagine what would happen if all of us were convinced we'd create. because you know we had someone break into our house a couple of guys just a couple of weeks ago and i always say look we steal because we do not believe we can create if we could actually create a movement where all of us began creating and using our gifts and talents and potential to do all the good we can we would never steal again because we'd never need to and so ironically we can create a better world by pulling the best out of every person we're gonna sign out there thank you so much erin hey thank you very much appreciate it still waiting in line again that's time you'll never get back save time and money with stamps.com over four million businesses have skipped the line with stamps.com join them to save up to 90 percent off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now print postage for certified mail registered mail, and packages in seconds.

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