#112: Chris Petkas: Why The Most Dangerous Men Are The Most Calm

34:04I think it was natural. It was mostly natural. You do have to structure it sometimes, right? Like there are times where you'll just be, you know, 96 hours and it's like, hey, I'm going to be gone for a few days. I will be out of touch. I'll let you know whenever I'm back. and you realize like very quickly, like, hey, I've been back for a few hours. I probably have the opportunity to say something to her. Like, even though I'm super tired and I haven't slept in two or three days, like keep the main thing, the main thing, right? So I think like being proactive about it is extremely helpful. I mean, and that's, you know, frankly, with any relationship, like it's very easy to be proactive about communication.

34:42Like, I mean, in essence, like that's a major part of communication in and of itself. um and so i mean if you're not like the unconscious like yeah it'd be nice it was young love still right we were like getting to know each other again but i think it's it's a very important thing to even structure it how important was that during that process for you like how much did that mean to you having that support there um even though you knew that you were gave her an out and you gave her a reason to leave uh it meant everything everything uh i it enabled me to like focus on like the men i was with i was deployed with like the mission that we're kind of whatever we were doing like it it really gave me this like amazing thing to remember like i had someone who i care about who i want to build a life with just you know waiting for me at home why so like why why specifically was it did it mean everything like why did it kind of keep you going and what was the drive?

35:56We talk about risk and the biggest risk you'll ever make is the person that you decide to spend the rest of your life with. And I was pretty certain, I was absolutely certain that she was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. So we talk about risk and it was like, this is the biggest risk I'm taking so I'm gonna make it epic in one way or the other right yeah I feel uh I feel like support is really really what most men want right like just having someone to believe in them belief is a very very powerful tool it's a powerful drug as well right I mean you talked to alluded to the loneliness of entrepreneurship sometimes right like frankly like i've never i've never experienced that uh you know it's been she and i the entire time like and i feel for the guys that might not have it and and women who don't but like it's out there like and a harsh thing to say sometimes is like be someone worth loving be someone worth supporting it's not a one-way street yeah i think it's cool do you feel like i don't know i look at this this power couple nature of like doing business together and there's so many different polarizing views of like no don't go into business with your partner like keep them separate and what are your views on that and and how do you feel about doing all of your business together as as a pair yeah um you know it's funny like we usually like laugh at like the or like you know kind of like almost like just like uh what do we do um we either like laugh or like kind of just like you know there's like a cringe factor to us when we hear like the the term power couple sometimes because like oh like because we're two people who are like interestingly involved in one thing that we both want to succeed well at it's like sure fine it's like like why don't we just call it like like i call it what it is right at the end of the day and um it's uh i i hope i never I hope I work with my wife for the rest of my life.

38:05And, you know, it's like, the people who are like naysayers about it, it's like, oh no, because now we're going to be focused on the same thing. And when like one person's like really feeling it, the other one can step in and like we can substitute for one another when the time is right. And we can think about this in ways that like are not only creative, but like we're both willing to like share the risk as well. Like we don't have to reintroduce ourselves to each other every day because we're doing the same thing. Like we spend 22 hours a day together and it's awesome. Like literally, I wouldn't have it any other way.

38:40And we have such different complementary skills. Like we have such different strengths. We have such different weaknesses. And like we leave it there. We leave it at the office. Like we don't bring it home. But like we can focus on it however long, whenever we want. And it's a beautiful thing that we're both in this like journey together. Yeah. even just framing it in that way, you think, why wouldn't you?

39:09Perhaps, perhaps if the mission that you're on is something that's so aligned with what you're trying to achieve, it's also fueling and serving your soul as well. It's not just for external validation. It's not just for anything external. Like deep down, it's something that you really want to do. and probably if you guys are together maybe you're aligned on on on those things as well and so why would you want to do everything else it's like it's like maybe if you have a normal job and you're looking forward to the weekend maybe that would get messy because you actually don't really like the day-to-day life that you live yeah but maybe because the pursuit of the business that you guys are running is something that you both love it makes it easier but would that be something absolutely we're very mission oriented around it that's very helpful right like at the end of the day it's not how it's not like the question is you know how much money would somebody pay you to do this it's like no how much money would somebody have to pay me to not do it right there's like there's not a price like sure send whatever you want out like not accepting and like that's i think the factor that really draws me into it um

40:26I don't know well enough like titans of industry historically. Like I haven't read enough biographies, but the women are talked about often, right? And that was just like how society was. It was a male-driven society, right? And now we have women in the workforce and now we have women who are becoming titans of industry kind of in their own right. And so frankly, I don't think it's anything new, right? I mean, do you think kings and queens work together? Like, yes, they did the same thing, right? I would imagine if you were to look back on some titans of industry, that the silent role that their wives held was much bigger than any of them got credit for.

41:07Yeah, what's that quote around like, behind every great man is a great woman? Yeah, exactly, right? And yeah, I mean, you know, maybe it's the other way around now. Behind every great woman, there's like an okay dude with a mustache like me. But who knows, man? yeah well well i mean i uh the reason i'm fascinated by these topics is because i think the phase of life i'm in uh it's around that time of like like finding the right person to be with and i'm always fascinated by how how uh how you know a and and b like how you do those things that you mentioned we leave the things at the office and we go home we don't bring it home like how you just like you brushed over that but at the same time like i'm always fascinated to know like all of these pillars because i know that there's probably going to be a thing in my life where it's going to be somewhat similar and i'm going to need to navigate like what that actually looks like to make sure that i can maybe have as little hiccups as possible or maybe the hiccups are just all part of it and you need to accept that absolutely dude it's the scar tissue right like do you know how to drive yourself crazy in a relationship expect the person to change and you know how you do that is you hold them to their weaknesses.

42:22Like, no, I hold somebody to their strengths. Like, you're not good at it. You don't want to do it. Why on earth would I ever give you the opportunity to lose? Like, that's just great. We'll figure it out. I'll do it or we'll find a different way to accomplish it. But no, you can't hold somebody to their losses. You can't hold somebody to their weaknesses. Like, you have to hold somebody to their strengths. That's the way you get out alive. I wonder why we default to the negative and actually hone in on those weaknesses. Yeah, it's interesting, right? You hear a lot about it in society right now.

42:53Like a person has to have these minimums in order for me to be interested. It's like, okay, well, like, gosh, like those don't sound like strengths. Those sounds like ultimatums, right? Like you don't hear like, oh, I want a guy who's like, you know, like very seldom do I hear listing a resume of like abilities and character traits, right? more of the time it's like physical and societal traits right it's height it's job it's salary or net worth right cool like if those are the things that will if that will fulfill you in life then awesome good on you and i hope you get everything that you want but i think deep down we have to look at like the second and third order effects right like i want somebody who like i can see myself having kids with, right?

43:45I want somebody who will break me out of a third world prison, right? I want somebody that no matter how wrong I am in public, she's totally going to be my ride or die. Like, yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. He's totally right. And then in private, like, you know, you were like really just wrong. You're so off on that. It's like, wait, what? Really? I mean, that's what I want. And not everybody has to have the same, but it's the same portion of like, you know you're you're a super interesting guy and you hang out with super interesting people and and that's why like be interesting right be interested to be interesting you know like be worthy of love to be loved it it's it's not that hard yeah i wonder the the progression towards that is like do you start being interested in just whatever and then and then i guess you sharpen the sword, you figure out, okay, well, I don't really know what I'm interested in and I'm struggling to get along with these people because I'm not really that interested in what they're talking about.

44:49And maybe it's a matter of like sharpening that sword. Okay, we onboard all of this information. This stuff's interesting. This stuff's not. This stuff serves me. This doesn't. Let's get rid of all the stuff that maybe isn't and free up some space to invite some more. And you kind of just keep embarking on this path till you get clear on maybe what you like and what you you don't like you mentioned that you you haven't experienced the loneliness as much in business because you guys have been doing it together do you feel like there was a level of loneliness in the military though was that was that or did you feel like all of the team and everything made you feel less alone yeah i never felt alone in the team either i always had people with me i always had i was fortunate to like serve with some of my best friends that i went through college with uh some that i grew up with um and you know those who like remain some of my best friends today it's like i was very fortunate and it's another thing where it's just like i know i'm even if i am alone like doing something else that requires me to be alone for an extended period of time like i don't feel alone like i know that i have people in my life who love me that i love back I know that I believe in a higher power that's like that doesn't leave me you know what I mean and I think people have to like get that around their head where it's like oh I'm so alone when you say you're so alone does that mean you don't have somebody you can relate to does that mean you have somebody who doesn't share your views does that mean you have somebody you can't talk to like because if you're not in the center of Antarctica or like the Amazon jungle or some other far-off desolate place, you're not alone.

46:31And to the point of people not being alone and finding that somebody, like, I don't know, if you're on the apps, you're kind of like, you're scrolling through data fields, right? Ton of data, not a lot of information. But it's very easy to pick a certain interest sector and then find where there's overlap. Like, do you know how many people are like, We're getting married now. We met at run clubs, dude. Like, it's insane, but it's perfect. It's like, I'm into fitness. You're into fitness. Let's see what else, like, matriculates, like, what else we can discover about each other here. Similarly, like, you know, people go to church or gyms or, like, cooking classes, whatever.

47:10Like, people are just trying to get better in certain ways or are interested. You're going to find overlap with somebody else. Yeah. So then it comes to that point of loneliness isn't the absence of people. it's the absence of connection and so you're feeling lonely it's not because you don't have people around you it's just because you don't connect with the people so then go and find the groups of people that you do connect with maybe it's fitness run clubs x y and z maybe there's a level of of pride that gets in the way by saying that you're lonely as well maybe there's like an ego piece of yeah i'm so alone and like and like they actually like the gratification that it gives them by saying like yeah i'm doing the solo like i'm alone yeah absolutely i think people have it and like some people just want to be tortured right and you know this like some people are just like negativity vortexes and like they're not one in the same all the time right but the reason that people might not understand you is because you don't express enough to them and so that's what i could just implore people to think about like sure if like loneliness is like a badge of honor for you, like good for you, man.

48:20But I think we need human connection in this life. Yeah. That's the reason for it. I like the way that you frame things, how instead of telling people what to do, you say, go for it, but like good for you, because it kind of makes you, surely I would hope that that makes people look within and go, okay, is this actually what I want? Or is it just something external that's resulting in me feeling like I need to do this thing, Even though deep down it doesn't like fuel me. I feel like even this piece of like connection and feeling together, there's an element of the military, right? Where there is a brotherhood there.

48:56There's a camaraderie that you have and you're probably aligned on a similar mission, right? You guys are trying to do the same thing. So tying together a group of people that are all striving towards the same thing. And then, like, you form a bond through that because there is an aligned focus and interest there. I also think that that's another part where maybe countries like Australia lack where they're very, like, not many people are proud to be Australian. There's a lack of patriotism in Australia where, like, you will not see an Australian flag at a house. Right. Whereas every corner there's an American flag here.

49:39what are your thoughts on, on, on this? And I'm fascinated by the whole concept of patriotism and people actually being proud to be where they're from. Do you feel like the military taught you a lot of that? And is there something that you, you know, about, about this topic and why Americans are typically a lot more proud? Yeah. So, I mean, I think when we look at, at patriotism, um, I think for us, I like to think of it more as a sign of like national gratitude, attitude, right? Like not to get like too Austin on you, but at the end of the day, you know, we live in a society that, uh, hasn't like, it's created an environment where pretty much, you can pretty much do everything, like anything you want, right.

50:18Within reason. Um, and a lot of other cultures, like still to this day, like you don't have that, right. We're still young. Like Joe Rogan jokes, we're three people old, like, right. I mean, the average age of We're about to be our 250th anniversary as a country. And so like, I still think we have like this really feisty kind of like, we have to make something of ourselves idea. And I think that is involved in patriotism, right? Like America loves to celebrate the winners. Where like in Australia, and correct me if I'm wrong, you guys like to celebrate the underdogs, right? It's like you're always championing like the underdog, right?

50:55Where for us, it's like, let's get on the bandwagon. Those who win will continue to win, right? Right. Yeah. I think the problem is we're not even championing the underdog. Like we don't want anyone trying. I'll break the mold. No, no, no. Don't do that. Don't do that. And then like achieve some level of success, then you can get respected. But then as soon as you try and break that again, don't do that. Don't do that. Yeah. So and also something interesting that I've heard from my Australian friends and correct me if I'm wrong here is the fact in the U.S. you can do anything. We tell kids from a young age like you can be anybody.

51:30You can be the president. You can be an astronaut. It doesn't matter what your background. But in Australia. Right. Like people have a little bit different of a fixed frame. Right. Almost like a caste system where it's like, hey, this is my background. This is my upbringing. And I'm probably going to stay within within this. I'm not going to be like one or two standard deviations above or below it. Yeah, well, I guess it's that fear of because everyone is judging you for trying to do something new, by doing something new, you're not going to be supported. And so you just want to make your parents proud and you don't want to, you know, feel left out at school.

52:05And you, you know, like, like when I when I made a pivot in my life, because in school, you're taught you can go to university or you can get a trade and that's it that's it like that that's it so when i publicly said that i wasn't going to go to university people are like oh what are you going to do become a tradie like are you going to become an electrician yeah and so like that's the options and i think i've spoke to people in america in small towns as well they feel that way as well but i think the problem with that is is at least in america if you try and do something new I feel a lot of places they will support it of course whereas you're like frowned upon like when I stopped going to school as much and I started learning business I would rock up to school and I'd get called Mr.

52:49Businessman and no one would answer my calls and I had no friends I couldn't hang out with anyone no one would hang out with me nowhere and um and it was quite extreme and this is literally why I've embarked on this whole thing to like I got a year out of school and we We had like valued this company at$800 ,000. We had like done all this stuff. And all the kids that were my friends that went to university, like there was only one left. The rest had dropped out of college and they were asking me like for some advice and stuff. And I was like, the last year has been like absurdly isolating, like alone.

53:24Like I went from being the cool kid to no one. And I'm like, there's something wrong here. There's something wrong here. And I think the thing that I'm interested in with America, which is why the land of opportunity, is because people are more supportive of your dreams, even though they don't know anything about it. Whereas I think they've got to see it to believe it in Australia at all levels. Yeah. I mean, look at the business and I'm in venture capital, right? At the end of the day, we're funding innovation. And at the end of the day, sometimes that's an idea. Sometimes that's a company with traction, with a real product, with revenue.

54:01Most of the time, it's somewhere in between, you know, the former two, right? When you're investing on the early stage side of the house, right? We invest hundreds of billions, if not trillions a year into companies like that, right? So I really think that we espouse this land of opportunity. And I think that's why we have such like patriotism and we have such like respect for, you know, the culture and society that's been created that kind of enables people to rise, right? Right. But fun fact, the average salary is higher in Australia than it is in the United States of America. So we still have like this semblance of patriotism of like, you can still do it.

54:39Even though like you might not win, you might not be the winner. You might not win at all. You might win some, you might lose a ton. Right. Do you think that's because of capitalism and it's more prominent here? because I mean like the salaries are more high in Australia and supported because like everyone's equal and it's more of that view whereas maybe it's a bit more cutthroat here I'm not sure yeah I mean you know by virtue I think you know we we are a transactional we're a little bit more of a transactional society I think that you would see right um but that's only in certain parts I think that might be a generalization because when you look at the stark contrast of specific cultures with the United States of America.

55:21I mean, I know you were just in Nashville, Tennessee, right? Like, have you been to any of like the really backwoods town of 200, 300 people, you know, of like these little spotty towns in Nashville? You think about this, but even though we're in the United States of America, like I have more in common with somebody in London or somebody in Paris or somebody in Melbourne, right? Or somebody in South Africa than I do with somebody in Southeast Louisiana. And I think when you think about that from a cultural perspective, we have very different, divergent, polar opposite cultures that exist within one border, which I think is pretty interesting.

56:05I was speaking about it earlier about, our default seems to be a negative. And in an ideal world, I wish that our default could be positive, but it is quite hard. I think we're just negative, we're just wired in a way where we're like fear driven. That's like, okay, well, let's like, like, let's, uh, let's hone in on the, uh, worst case scenario, not the, what could happen. And, um, I don't know, I don't know why that is, but I think it's quite a blocking view and frame because if you, like, if you're constantly worried about the worst case scenario, I feel like you're just constantly in a state of fear.

56:47Like you're living in this state where you will never have courage and you'll never be able to like progress closer towards the life you want to live because you're constantly just driven by fear. And for me, what I found is that there's this element and like I love, I'm going back there next month. I'm so excited to go back. I think it's the most, it's like the safest place. It's like doesn't smell. It is beautiful. The beaches are the best in the world. I love Australia. I would love to raise my family in Australia. But I do just think it's very, very hard to achieve stuff there. And naturally, right, there's 27 million people there and there's 327 million here, whatever the number is, right?

57:32And so I think that there's a small amount of people and we're very influenced. and so I'm just fascinated. Do you feel like the military aspect of you is naturally going to mean that you're going to be more proud because you've represented your country as well? Like, do you feel like there's an element of you where you're quite proud to be American, especially because of the service that you've done? I don't think necessarily it was the service that I'd done. It was the parts of the world that I had seen. Right. Instead, that was like... Perspective. Oh, very much so, right? It's like you could come back, again, with a negative or positive mindset to say, I can't believe we allow people to live in that type of, like in that type of environment.

58:14It's like, well, interesting you say that. These people have been around thousands of years longer than we have, right? In terms of like a, of a society, you know, like in Iraq or Beal, the capital of Kurdistan, the Kurdish autonomous region, Beal is the oldest continuously populated city on the planet earth, right? And so you think about that, you're like, who am I to say or judge how these people live when they've been doing it for centuries? Right. And so I have a huge, huge, huge appreciation for like having running water and sanitation and air conditioning and freedoms and, you know, businesses being able to freely operate without fear of, you know, like crazy government overreach or intervention.

59:11Yeah. it's it's democracy is an experiment there's if we tie back into this comparison piece where it gives you perspective it it it does make you think when you're traveling and when you're away it gives you perspective on maybe what you once took for granted because you're like oh wow well this is actually quite amazing like all of these things that we have is so great equally though when you look at people in third world countries and stuff and they still have a massive ear to ear smile, they lack perspective, which is in their favor because of how unfortunate they are comparatively to the world.

59:49So like, it's actually a blessing that they lack perspective because they can still have peace, joy, fulfillment, and enjoy their lives, even though someone from a Western culture that maybe has grown up very privileged would go there and feel like they're in hell. Absolutely. I mean, comparison really is the thief of all joy. I mean, you look at people and they are incredibly happy. They provide for their families. They're a close-knit unit. They have no worry or needs or wants in the world, right? They have everything that they want. And Americans and just people in the Western world, we lose sight of that very quickly.

1:00:27Yeah, and so the thief of all joy, but then perhaps it's even like the gift of all joy. Because when you experience comparisons that are lower, it actually makes the ones that you're in right now higher and makes you have more joy, potentially. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, yeah, I guess you just can't be absolutist about it one way or the other, right? It's like, sure, like, you know, these guys don't have FSD Teslas, right? But you look at it the other side, it's like, but like they live in this beautiful place by the river. They have everything they could need. They have a happy, healthy family, like in a father who's home every night.

1:01:03It's like, that's awesome, right? It's no, oh, sorry, I got to go to New York for three days for work, right? It's like, no, dad's home every night, whole time, taking care of you, doing everything. So with that in mind and having those experiences, what's the main driver to be striving towards so much success, running all of these businesses, having a big company where you're working with all these brands and it's like brands, companies, it's like go, go, go. And that's the nature. um what's the drive in terms of like the reason you guys are in pursuit of like such such greatness i look at this i look at these um these pillars of life where there's so much um i know there's people that don't really have anything and they have so much joy and then we're in a culture where maybe we're like sprinting towards something and everyone has their own version of what that something is.

1:01:57And is there something for you that is the reason that makes you keep pushing and keep striving for more? Yeah, absolutely. I've been so blessed to be impacted so positively from being a US citizen, living in America. So, so much, I think, of what we're focused on is what does the future of that look like and how can we impact it in a positive way? How can we enable people to make changes, serve in their communities, serve in their businesses, serve their fellow people by, you know, participating. I mean, at the end of the day is what it really is, man. And so for us, like, that's what we want to be part of.

1:02:43We want to be part of, like, we don't want to be part of, like, a driving change. We just want to be part of the future, right? Like, I think working, there's nothing wrong with working towards the future in a society that you want to live in and be in. Like impact shows itself in many different ways. And for us, like this is the way that we make impact. Yeah, it's great. Do you think there's something specific that you see? Obviously, you're speaking with a bunch of founders and being in VC, you're probably talking with so many different people doing so many different things. Is there a common thing that you guys are looking for when it comes to investing into people and the ideas that they have behind them?

1:03:19Yeah, absolutely. When we really look to understand ideas, to understand companies, we're really looking for like, what is the problem this solution is based on, right? At the end of the day, what are you solving for? I think that's lost culturally a lot, especially in business, right? You hear about, you know, the rise of AI and so many people are on such a mad dash to adopt so many tools. At the end of the day, you're asking like, what problem are you solving for? is it just like you feel that you're lagging and you know keeping up with you know the technological innovation and progress that's happening or do you have like inefficiency you're trying to solve for right do you have a friction point that you're trying to solve for um we really dig in onto like what is the problem here and like how valuable is this problem meaning like is it worth solving in such a way that will impact a lot of people.

1:04:14Yeah. And I guess like it's, it's interesting. And I'm looping this back into the fact that you guys have been doing this together. When you started out on, on, on, on this, there would have been, I'm imagining like a level of, okay, like if we're doing this together, I'm going to do this because this is my strength. I'm going to do this because this is my strength. And then you would work as a team on that. Was it clearly defined when you started out, like what you'd be doing, what Cody would be doing, or did you kind of have to figure it out on the way? Or did you have a clear understanding on your strengths and where you were going to focus?

1:04:48Yeah. No, you have to just triage everything all at once. Right. And I mean, like you, like early days in a company and in a business, like you don't have the luxury to decide like, oh, who gets to do what? It's just like, this has to happen. And so one of us has to do it. And it's, yeah, now like we're at the point where we can categorize based on where our strengths lie. I mean, you know, for the most part, I focus way more, I focus solely on the investing side of the house. And Cody's just like this. has this ridiculous energy and know-how where she can kind of sit across like the entirety of the businesses uh and so for us it's just like hey where am i strategically needed like where can i help out and like what forms can i be most impactful yeah where was the decision to have cody be the the face and the the um the the figure behind the brand the the public figure and the facing one, was that by accident or was that a strategic decision where you were like, like Cody's going to build the personal brand?

1:05:57Yeah. So, I mean, it really started, Cody started building the personal brand on her own. You know, she was in kind of a traditional finance role in private equity when she started writing a newsletter about what she was seeing happening and like kind of her experiences about, you know, investing. And then all of a sudden it just kind of blew up overnight. And then that kind of led on to, okay, like, what does this look like from a formidable business and that started to kind of mature and progress into what it is today i didn't join full-time um until about two years ago um like to to really focus on the investing side of the house um before that i was like i was operating companies in the defense tech world um and then you know a little bit of work with the department of defense um on the ai side of the house as well it's it's this weird uh not weird um but like a fizzle out of of the military it doesn't really like happen like that you kind of do you like make a decision of okay i'm not gonna be going on i'm not gonna be going on deployment again but maybe how else can i be involved is that the progression and how it works like okay we're we're going on deployment this is my focus, do you like approach it and go, okay, we're going to maybe change what the focus is.

1:07:14And it's like still aspects of the military, still working with it. And then you end up like progressing out of actually being on the field. Is that how it works or? Kind of, kind of. Yeah. Especially as like an officer, you know, when you, when you go into the armed services, a lot of the times, you know, you're like operational until you hit like a certain level, a certain threshold. It's about 10 years for an officer. After that, like you are at a desk, right? You are much more of the strategy, operations and planning. I hit my tenure mark and I realized, you know, very quickly, like, hey, I've kind of hit my limit on what I'm interested in doing here and I've served my time and I'm interested to explore what else life has to offer.

1:07:53With all of that said, how do you feel like Cody has supported you on your mission? And And what do you think have been the keys that has been really helpful for you in transitions and in just going through this journey, especially being married over the last six years? Yeah. Military transitions is super hard, right? You'll hear a lot of guys. One of my great friends operates an amazing company in the defense tech space. He's been out longer than I have. And people ask him, like, how was your transition out of the military? And, you know, which was eight years ago. And he'll tell them, like, I don't know.

1:08:30I'll let you know when I'm done. right like it it takes a while just to kind of like shake that part of your life off um and to have somebody there with you and he had his wife was there with him the whole time and she was such a rock form and again like that was a cheat code for me as well i had cody and her ability to help me just navigate kind of everything you know like what does this all mean because it's a completely different culture. I mean, your paradigm is shifted like 180 when you get out, right? A lot of the criteria that you based success off of in the military does not immediately translate to your success on the outside.

1:09:17And those things that we hold dear in terms of our expectations of others and expectations of an organization are very different as well. And so like coming to terms with flipping this entire thing on its head is something that takes a little while. And it's, you know, it's the cave allegory. Like I have not, I have no idea of the darkness until I've seen the light. And it's not dark in like this stark, like depressing way. It's just, it's just different. it. What aspect of it is, is the hard part of transitioning? Is there like an identity piece, maybe? Or is there a certain thing that makes a transition out of military specifically so hard?

1:10:02Absolutely. I mean, I'm still identified by what I did, you know, when people introduce me. Oftentimes, it's like, one of the first things they say about me to somebody else. And I'm like, cool that was five years ago like but thank you um and so like it's it is it's part of your character and you know it'll never go away and i hope it doesn't right it's just like i i get to live a different life now um good and bad right um it was the best like you live your dream job as like a young guy in your 20s you're with your best friends it's awesome like being in like far off places that look like the star wars cantina you know um and you just relegate to the fact that like that was what it was and it was awesome while it was there and like it's very hard to see where you're going if you keep looking backward yeah i feel i feel like even just you explaining the missions that you were on just then without the extreme training that they put you through you wouldn't have had as good of an experience on the missions and you probably wouldn't have been talking about them as highly without all of the extreme training that it took to prepare you for the mission.

1:11:18I, uh, I just, I just feel like there's something in that where you, you, like you're go through so much stuff. That's not actually the main dance. It's all of the training. It's all of the work. It's all of the, I mean, I played a high level sports back in Australia, at australian football and and like my coach would talk about the man in the stand so like the the work you're doing when no one's watching like pretending that there's a man in the stand and you look at all of the training and all of the preparation is the very thing that makes you enjoy the actual dance itself yeah yeah and and and like that's you you you sharing the memories you have on mission like those are positive because of all of the behind the scenes work I'd probably suggest.

1:12:05Yeah. I mean, I was, I was a college athlete and it was very helpful. Like I was instilled in a very, actually like before that in like high school and middle school, a very young age where, you know, you, what is it called? The, uh, the adage is, uh, uh, sweat in battle or sweat in training. So you don't bleed in battle. Right. And it's, it's the same thing. It's like practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect right and like your willingness to continue to like get incrementally better day by day by day is so incredible dude it is so incredibly underrated like i can't tell you the number of people that i see in the gym who like won't put the two and a half plates on like you know to like a squat rack of like 405 it's like dude that's one percent better like that's one percent more like do not overlook those opportunities and it's and it's true and they're always dude they are always they are always sitting in front of you every time so find them they're staring at you dude they're staring at they're calling out to you sometimes too man yeah it's there it's and it doesn't it's and the thing is man most of the time it doesn't cost you time or money it just costs you a little bit of discipline that's it and probably courage as well i feel because sometimes you might know it's there but it's quite scary and so yeah yeah good feel something for once like what's the point like i think we have to be very careful of uh just like continuing to um i don't want to say whitewash but like um I'm trying to think of a simpler word and not like a$5 word, right?

1:14:01Like anesthetize. But at the end of the day, it's like, or innocuate. But I mean, at the end of the day, it's like, we've just like, we numb ourselves. I think to a lot of these opportunities and abilities. And it's just like, you know, no, tomorrow, no, later. It's like, dude, you're going to be way better tomorrow for it. I'm like, why don't you think about that instead? said perhaps the the biggest drug that contributes to that is comfort oh dude yes yes it is the most dangerous drug hands down i mean you know i think that's why you hear drug addicts you know usually talk about this you know an opiates and certain drugs of choice like a warm hug right i mean at the end of the day they're they're explaining comfort right like escapism and those two are heavily intertwined comfort and escapism like escaping what scares you escaping what you're afraid of escaping what just like gnaws at you i mean it's incredible it's it's it paralyzes some people do you think that's what one of the things the military told you because there is no escape yeah like if i always like what i learned was if everything's going wrong and it's a completely chaotic situation do you have options if you have options you're in a great place if you have the option if you have optionality right but the most difficult like terrible scenarios are those like you don't have to you don't have an option and you just have to do this.

1:15:43Like, really, like you act like you actually only have one option, right? It's like swim or drown, right? Or it's like, you know, run or fall behind, right? But like, those are still like options. Great. Fall behind, quit. You'll be comfortable in five minutes. You'll be comfortable in one minute. And then, you know, what sinks in after that is the regret and the shame. and so like optionality everything i do in life it's like dude make sure make damn sure that the worst thing that you have is an option i think we wrap it up there yeah i think that's fucking cool awesome i feel like there's a um there's a i try and because i speak with so many different people like today we've had you know a we've had like a you know someone in bjj that you know has had a pretty wild story and like the homeless stuff and all of that and then we've had a guy that was had like a billion dollar real estate company and now we like helps people with their traumas and then we have like another person that's got like a tech startup and then you and and like they're all different conversations um but but the the one thing that i i do like about um tying it into what we said before we press record around around militant men is you you don't dwell on the the negative very much at all and so like you're not looking for a sop story you're not looking for a woe is me you're kind of like yeah good fine yeah it's all good i will say that is something you have to and train yourself in.

1:17:26Because in the military, you're always taught to plan around the things that can go wrong. So you're taught to plan like, okay, great. Here's the plan that we want to have happen. Here's how we want to execute it. Here are the 30 things that can go wrong, right? Like literally, and you just plan those out and you have contingencies for those things. Like, okay, if then statements surrounding how you want to carry out a plan, right? And so that is a gigantic frame shift that is probably the most difficult for most people getting out of the military is because you similarly like to what you said earlier like australians like you are looking for the negative you're looking how like it's easy to naysay like there's a lot of this drama online with like a bunch of bro vets all over instagram and twitter that just like hate on each other and it's embarrassing because frankly it's like dude you are like put aside your ego and like remember you have some dignity and oftentimes it's very difficult and that is where like my wife helped me out a ton was like no no no you have to think about the possibility of things that can happen not the possibility of bad like possibility of good dude like that is a major thing that people have to overcome yeah so but the thing you said that helped you overcome that was having cody there which then tells me the environment that you're in so important like if you if you're so used to that it took going back out of that and being with someone that is the opposite to remind you of okay this is actually quite great living in this way maybe i should try and unlearn this thing that i've been that's been so ingrained in the culture that i've been a part of yeah it's like you know military stuff like it's life or death of a human right or and or several right in here life or death of your ego like we talked about earlier like that's what it really is and you know she like was great at reminding me like okay what if everything goes wrong what if it all goes wrong and it just comes crashing down who dies who gets hurt nobody one okay so let's like let's be real about it then like you tell me to be real about it when things you know like the uh you know i'd always be like oh it's not that big of a deal like it's cool like we don't know it's gonna hurt no one's gonna die and she's just like it's great she just threw it right back at me she's like really is anybody no okay take it seriously and do your best at it but remember what's actually at stake yeah that frame has helped me a lot no one's gonna die like like like it actually helps so much because i just think we get debilitated by these thoughts that we just make up in our head Like we seem to think that the worst case scenario is actually a whole lot worse than it is.

1:20:14And it can stop us from even embarking on the journey. Yeah. Like the amount of people, if you look at the charts of now, it used to be the joke, right? It was like public speaking. People feared public speaking more than death. Now it's like death. No joke is like number seven or number eight on the list. Like there's all of these other worries that people have above that. And you're like, dude, what? Like. okay like the hardest thing and you said it earlier the hardest thing that's ever happened to you is the hardest thing that's ever happened to you that's never to be deminimized no matter what it is right we shouldn't like trauma shame people right or like you know or like uh you know trauma compare right but you have to really think about like what's what's what is gonna die here not who yeah i love it dude awesome thank you so much is there anything you want to say before we wrap up uh i appreciate you having me i think it's fucking amazing what you're doing don't stop no one pays your bills for you you know what i mean like the audience what like

1:21:32the man the man uh what's called the man in the stands yeah dude he doesn't pay your bills you know what i mean like don't second guess the impact of another's thought on your progress like it doesn't fucking matter just know who you have to impress at one time in life at what time in life because it'll change but like what i always go back to is like something to do someone to love and something to look forward to you have those three like you're fucking great dude. Something to do someone to love and something to look forward to. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, massive kind of has one is, someone to, someone to look up to someone to look forward to and something to chase.

1:22:19I think he has. Yeah. And his one is, someone to look up to someone to look forward to someone to chase. And he goes, uh, the one to look up to is God. I know that I can, I can look up to him. The one to look forward to is Camillo and his kids. and then the one to chase is me in 10 years yeah that's a good one i heard that man god i love that he's like he's like it's me me in 10 years because when i i got asked when i was 15 who my hero was and i didn't really know and he's like we'll go back go away and think about it i think about it and they met up the week later and he's like you think about it and matthew's like yeah it's it's me at 25 and then uh be in 10 years and then he's like they meet up 10 years later like did you did you meet your hero he's like oh no it's me it's me in 10 more years he's like i never want to i don't want to achieve that i don't want to reach my hero because it always gives me something to chase yeah dude yeah chase your hero i love that dude yeah and it may at the end of the day like you're doing and you said or like dude risk take it like you can take it in small steps you can make it in big steps but like just get comfortable taking it i appreciate you dude thank you so much and um and yeah this has been fun this is awesome appreciate you thanks chris for signing out and appreciate you guys for making it to the end we'll see you guys very soon bye