#133: Mark Rolton: Smart People Win In Moments Like This

31:02And that's very important for you and I as men. we must remain pliable, flexible. We must be adaptive, right? Because the growth can't ever stop. It can never stop. Think about relationships. That's the one part that you will continually have to reinvigorate who you are, show up differently in that space of love, or it's just not going to work. I think there's a key here that's a bit of an unlock. So it's not about these shiny things, but if we focus on the pain, which is the thing that develops the character that we want, that wouldn't be a very motivating thing. If you told someone just go through shit for the rest of your life, they're not going to want to do it.

31:51No one's going to sign up for that, Chris. But if you say, go after that shiny watch and the boat, they'll be like, yeah, I want that. But a byproduct of it is they're going through the shit because it's hard to get the thing. So the goal is actually going through shit, but the motivation isn't going through shit. Yes. The motivation is tying yourself to the desire. Yes. And then a byproduct of getting that thing that you desire and the reason you desire it is because it's hard to get. That's right. Is that you go through all the shit and you build up the character. 100%. So then if anything, if someone's asking for advice that's really early on and they have these big desires, maybe they're external, maybe they're things.

32:32Yes. Don't make them shy away from it because they're going to figure it out. They're going to learn. They're going to go through that journey of going through the shit and having to be alone and get back up and build the character that you build when you go through those hardships, whether it's business or whatever it is. Yes. I think the only thing is that's different about being driven in business as opposed to being a street sweeper is the outcome is a more desirable outcome for a lot of people. So you can tie yourself to business and go, okay, but that's going to actually set up financial freedom.

33:10I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to be able to provide. I'm going to be able to buy the nice things. I'm going to be able to live wherever I want. And so perhaps that's a greater desire than maybe the life that street sweeping could unlock. So whether you're trying to be the best at either, the desire would be greater for that one. And then the upside and the reward would be greater for that one. What I'd love to know is if you encourage your son to not go down this route, do you think it's important to have at the front of his mind about the outcomes that he's going to be able to get from the route that he's doing?

33:44or do you think you just want him to be the best? Like what would be your view? Because obviously, I mean, I don't know what your son's doing, but it's a pretty black and white business. It's like a black and white thing. You do the thing, you transact. The commodity you're transacting with is money. You make the money. It unlocks the freedoms to be able to do the things. But if you're not doing that route, then perhaps the financial barrier could be a thing. Is that something that you're aware of when encouraging your son to not go down that route? Great question. Look, what you and I have set out to achieve in the world of commerce and enterprise, think of it like the matrix.

34:25All of this is just nothing but an illusion. What really defines us is who we become. And that's the beautiful part of life. That's where you and I get to sit as men and say, well, I'm vastly different today than when I started out. And I see that in my own. I think of where I began and how just insane the pace was and how it all had to be now, not tomorrow, now. Just working six days a week tirelessly, never taking my eye off the goal, to where I sit now is vastly different. But if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying, how does that translate to your son? It's a good question. Look, what I am very clear in my discussions with him is that you want it to be hard.

35:16Don't look for the easy route. That's not what men do. Now, you can say, oh, well, why does it have to be difficult? If I manifest it being simple, it should be. Perhaps. Maybe that's the case. You know, I want a route that suits him. He's well aware as a young man, it's going to be hard. It's going to be tough. And not many people will walk that route. now in those struggles in that mental anguish in those testing moments in those failures you will be forced to reassemble the parts and go again start all over and failure I think is important for young men we can't banish this idea that you've got to nail it put it through the goalpost every single time it's just not going to happen that way but you want it to be rigorous You want it to be futile at times.

36:09You want it to be fucking hard because that's what makes us shine. And that's where men rise. Yeah. I truly think my life changed when I started feeling happy in the suffering. Yes. Feeling peace when I'm in a low. That's good. And I think if people don't feel that, it just means that they haven't been through enough lows. That's good. Because you get familiar with it and it's okay to be that. It won't be forever. Yeah. And being familiar with it, I think there's a piece in that, but then also there's more of a willingness to take risks because you don't fear the outcome of it going bad. Yeah.

36:55True. There's probably a nature in that that's quite positive, and then there's also one that when you have people that depend on you and stuff, then that's potentially not the greatest trait. But at those moments, they should rally around, shouldn't they? Yeah. Right? If they really loved. If they really see the value in you, they know your worth and who you are, they're going to rally around in those times. And if the people that you're providing for typically in most instances would be maybe your wife and kids, I don't know about you, but I want my wife to be my biggest cheerleader. Indeed.

37:32And my biggest supporter. And I want her to have trust that what I'm doing, I know what I'm doing and I believe in it. And I want her to believe in it because I believe in it. And so I guess if that's a trait that I really want in my partner to have massive belief in me, then if I'm making a decision that is quote unquote a risk. Does that include failure, Chris? What do you mean? If something was to completely self-destruct and you were at zero, would you expect her to start?

38:05yeah definitely because if i went to zero i don't fear being stuck there i'll make it out in no time would she be a good match if she had fear around that no i think that you don't want a man doesn't want to be questioned all the time that's a bit arrogant is it yeah but but i think with your partner i think when you come together and i'm saying this as a single 24-year-old, but I feel when you come together, there should be a level of unity that goes, if you think this is right, then I trust you. And I feel that there's probably an element of a woman's intuition that's quite valuable to listen to as well.

38:50It's not just a man, it's both of us working together. But going down to zero, it's like, well, we've been there before. So, like, am I okay now? Chris, we have a mortgage and three kids. Zero is different today than what it was when you were 24. Yeah. I mean. How do you respond to that? Okay. Well, let's go to Bali. Suggesting a holiday. Like, it's like, I don't know. I guess the thing is, you said earlier in this around, if you give a man a mission, he will work. Indeed. the biggest thing that I've found with people that are really high achievers is they say I wish I had kids sooner and I've also had other ones say if you want to make real money have kids you'll never work harder in your life and is it a common theme you observe I've heard it yeah I've heard it multiple times from super high level people I wish I had kids sooner and when you have kids you'll work harder and I think when I think about it just in my in in my nature and what I feel, if I need to do something, I don't feel tired.

40:01I don't need to sleep. I'm on. If there's something that has a deadline and it's extremely important to me, you make it work. And I think when you pursue the path of commerce and business enough, I feel there's an understanding of how to create wealth, create money. and I think there's a level of confidence that comes in that realm for me. So I guess I don't really have that fear of going down, but maybe it's different when there's dependencies and there's children and there's a wife and there's life and a mortgage, but it's not something that I could probably contribute on because I don't know that state, haven't been there.

40:44What do you think? Oh, well, I think, you know, the idea of unity is very important, that I think that's those ideals are being eroded today. Why so? Oh, I think the advent of social media and the idea that a relationship is not forever. Without sounding a little cynical, I don't know that it's for every woman to stick around when you hit zero. I don't feel that's, for some of them, that's not upon them. It's like, I'm out of here. I deserve more. I'm the boss babe or you know I know my value is tabled around quite often you know and I think that in zero it's great because it's kind of it eliminates by its own doesn't it you know if a woman doesn't want to be decide you at zero great she wasn't going to be there forever right you know damn so if anything you want to go to zero as soon as can to test it well there's not a bad idea is it has been done before and i just think if we tie this back into the desire and pain concept around like don't tell someone just to go through pain tell them to shoot really big and try and be the best and a byproduct is you'll go through pain if we tie it back into this the the goal is okay i'm in this relationship i think she's my forever person let's not just try go to zero but let's try and now that she's here and you feel like she's this rock and it's one plus one equals three.

42:16Let's go and take over the moon and see if she stays around. Okay. But maybe there's an element of, and I'm just exploring this idea for the first time, but let's go there. Maybe there's an element of like, if you're getting a high value woman that, I mean, define high value in a sense, but say you get some gorgeous woman that probably she's choosing you, but she's got a lineup of men waiting for her. Maybe if you get down to zero. Is that a high-value woman? Well, if there's a lineup of people, that probably would mean that there's a high-value thing. Just like when - You made an inference there.

42:52What do you mean? She's an attractive woman. She'll have a long queue of money. Yeah. Is that a high-value woman? Well, I would say that if there's any long line of people, then there's probably a higher value to that person, if I'm just breaking it down. But I mean, I would say that that's one - You'd be talking by societal measures? Yeah. Yeah, well, I'd be taught, yeah, yeah. So I guess there's a piece here around, but then there's the whole thing is why is that woman being in a position where she's got a lineup of men that even want her as well? That's another whole concept. But maybe what I'm just more so thinking is like when I'm looking at, and I've recently just got out of a relationship, but when I'm looking at like what I wanted a woman, like, I do think that the looks piece is quite important, but it's, it goes far beyond, it goes far beyond that with all of the things like, like for me, I found, which was so great, um, which I hadn't had in, in last relationships is how positive and how bubbly and how light they are, because it makes me feel like all the volume just turns down like, yes, passion, like that's so great.

44:08right and so that's why actually another reason why I wanted to dive deep into more Christianity and understanding more of that because I looked at her and she was a Christian and she solved all of her petty problems with her prayer journal before coming to me and I didn't have to it was like there was never we got pretty close and there was never main challenges we didn't have kids or anything like this right and so there's a whole new set of challenges that come in but I noticed that like this trait of being easygoing but still respects herself and hold and not just like follows you around, but then also being so light and bubbly and great.

44:50That to me is high value. I see that as high value because I actually see that as hard to come by. But I think if you were to tie that and it's an energy thing where you feel it straight away, you just know when they're in that state with looks where they're drop-dead gorgeous, you want to rip their clothes off, and then you have this nature of support and believes in you and trusts in you. If you pile that in, she could go out on the street and find a man that would take her up in a heartbeat because I think they're hard to come by. And so maybe the one piece I'm missing here is another piece in high value is choosing you and being okay with you and wanting to give you everything, not wanting to be up in the air and maybe maybe commitment is a key piece as well right you said on the last show that you take your daughter out of school you make her wag school and skip class to hang out with dad yeah why do you think that's important i get this question a lot actually oh look we have flown to projects in the helicopter we have walked over developments.

46:04It's cool. I think it's one of those freedoms that becomes more accessible when you've got money and time. And I mean, honestly, think about school. Where have you used geography? Where have you used geology? Where have you used history in your everyday working life? Algebra. Algebra. Everyday working life. So the battle of academia is always rife in my mind. So we spend time on the road, you know. The other day we were racing go-karts on a school day. It was fantastic. No one there. And the whole track. It was unreal. This guy turns up, he's got the big Pantac, you know, you pay your money, it's arrive and drive.

46:47All the carts are sitting there. My son, me and my daughter just ripping around. It was so fun. I mean, I get in the car and I'm still grinning driving home, right? So I think it's just important, you know, like if you're, look, everyone's got a different policy around parenting, Chris. Mine is to build wholesome young people in this world that know what it's like to contribute. Why contribute? Because the world's full of tokens. Giving is a done craft. It's people don't give anymore. I also think it brings you more joy than most things. They think it's transactional. If I can take, I get more.

47:31So to be wholesome, well-rounded individuals that know what it's like to contribute. Do you think the quality time with their dad is another key aspect as well? Imperative. Imperative. Why so? What are the role models that they have?

47:53Onlyfans? Internet? Really? So it's imperative that you are saddled and sown into your children always. Yeah. And you know what's crazy that I realized a few months ago, which I don't know how I didn't realize sooner, is you spend eight hours a day as a kid being influenced by other children's parents, teachers you spend more hours in your day as a kid with other adults developing you as opposed to you then you send them to daycares and childcare and all the rest of it and as when they're young and they've got other parents uh other parents parenting them and everything and it just made it just made me think around like okay if you're bringing someone into the world you know surely you want to teach them the lessons that you've learned and and help encourage them into a way that you think is going to make them a better person.

48:56But then we go and send them to be parented by other people. And so I guess that quality time thing is imperative. There's a few things here. There's a few markers that you rose there for me. And they're all red flags. Why is it that you and I have a child and we tear off to a job and drop them off at daycare, kindy at 6, 8, 12, 15 months? Why is it so necessary for mum to drive a Range Rover and live in the right postcode? I mean, what the fuck is that? You're paying someone to raise your child. It's the only thing that matters in your existence, at least in my opinion. That's the trophy of life, is your kids.

49:36And you pay someone else to raise them. Where's the duty of care in that? While you drive a Rolls Royce or... And you drop them off at grade one and before you know it's grade seven, they go into high school and you still haven't really spent much time with them. But you're paying again for someone to raise your kids. And boarding school, don't get me started on boarding school. That makes no fucking sense at all. I don't want to be with my child, so therefore I just package them up and see them at holidays. How do you expect that kid to turn out? Single sex schools. Really? Talk about pack mentality.

50:15Ten boys roaming the streets. All they know is each other. They don't know what it's like to interact with the other sex. That's very unskilled. That's unwise. Girls the same. All they know is the same sex. They don't know how to interact with boys. They end up giving themselves so early in the hope that someone will care. They just don't know what it's like to have that equal interaction, that loose interaction, to be around the presence of someone else, the opposite sex. I think that's just completely screwed up. Yeah, and then I guess there's no boundaries if you're not religious or anything, so it's all just give it up.

50:52It just, yeah, it'll make sense. And then you've got to go to uni and repeat what your parents did. Just dive into the system and find your way into the corporate, and hopefully one day you'll arrive with a house and a divorce, half a house. It doesn't make a lot of sense. You know, the other piece around this, which is crazy, is boarding schools. The only people that can send their kids to boarding schools are the wealthy ones. Correct. Financially wealthy ones. Yes. So isn't the goal to work hard to create financial freedom so you have control of your time so that then when you build a family, you can actually be with them?

51:33Yeah. So you build up all this financial wealth so that you can then send your kids away, which is the opposite of the thing that you should be working so hard to achieve. Well, so you can work harder, Chris, don't you know? You can just do longer days at the office and bill more time. Doesn't that make any sense to you? Look, there's a very small cohort. It's certainly a minority of parents that have decided to make their wealth early and then reject the system and then raise their kids in that way. That's a cool collective of people to hang around. Really cool. Like I've got some friends in mine where they literally the kids bounce from house to house five days a week.

52:15And it's a paid teacher just in different environments. But the curriculum is just loose. We'll go for a surf, we'll do some English, and then we'll go play basketball. That to me is a great environment. And that's money working for you. They're different choices. And that definitely, the undertones of that for me is raising a very different type of child, a very different human. How is that money working for you? We've got the choice to do that. You know, sharing the cost of a teacher among five families is quite expensive, right? It's different. It's expensive. It's not easy. But what a better way to raise a child.

52:53if you want any academia and the basically the cornerstones of let's call it knowledge academia it's a good way to learn i've had friends of mine that had troubled kids and they've just started classes on the beach it's not working the system's not it's not working my child is not fitting in they're not integrated they've never been invited to a birthday party in six years the system's broken so therefore i'm going to take the time i've got money i'm going to take the time and we'll learn maths on the beach. You finish these equations, we go for a surf. Great place for a young man to learn. What do you think gets in the way of parents wanting to do that?

53:35What do you think? I don't know. The Matrix. All this. You feel we need it. We're validated by this. It forces us into that mould. so you have all this what makes you not be in that choice what do you mean choice i have it but i don't have to be in it it's my choice to sit outside of that right and so i guess this ties into that concept at the very start around after 400 million what else is there and so you've just you've realized that there's a there's just a nature where you just go, the cost outweighs the prize. I want to spend time with my kids. Yes. And if it means that I need to maybe work a little bit less or maybe work smarter in a way or value your time more so you're more efficient, whatever it might be.

54:39Yes. You're just going to do that. But maybe it's an identity piece. Your identity gets tied to the work. So in your head, the way success looks like for you is the amount of hours that you spent doing the thing as opposed to being efficient. Like the amount of people that would have to go and sit in their office and do nothing just because they're in their office would be crazy to me as well. Like the idea of success is so ingrained in the amount in which they are working. It's like it's ingrained in identity. Well, it's white collar, isn't it? You're referring to all those people that have to show up because they've got it built on.

55:20That's a very hard thing. The concept that you've just discovered, I think, there is very, very hard. It's very difficult, particularly for men more so than women, I feel, to decouple from that identity. Very hard. Because you get recognized, you get praise, you get accolades for what you've done. That's a very addictive cycle. The money brings more. acknowledgement the money brings, the fame brings more understanding, you get more validation. It's a vicious cycle. And to decouple from that, yeah, it's not easy. To choose differently. I don't want to be that. I don't want to be enslaved by that ideal.

56:04I'm choosing to live in a very different way, in a different manner. That's hard. Do you think the key to realize that is actually to turn your focus from outward to inward? Yes. And sit in silence and ponder? Great observation. Because without that, you're going to be looking for answers externally, but the whole external is just this 3D world that's all materialistic and everything. And so if you're searching for that and wondering why you can't find deep fulfillment, there's probably something in that. You're slowly digging a grave for the soul. I've become buried by the matrix, buried by the material items, buried by more is better.

56:47And that's not the answer. There is a point of inflection. I will grant that. There's enough time and enough freedom. The bills are paid and everything's done for that I can actually sensibly choose how I play the rest of the next 15, 25, 40 years. That's the point of inflection. That's where I think most people want to get to. to be cognizant of that decision? Am I going to apply my skills and go deeper at this, push beyond 400 mil? Is that what I'm here for? Is that my objective? Is that how I'll be recognized more, play out the ego in a different version, in a far more enhanced way? Or will I reconcile with myself and decide this is how I want to be?

57:36where does nature play into this you live on the beach and i was running past you and on christmas day actually i was doing a run and i saw you and we had a good chat and you're talking about the power of living on the beach hearing the waves and yeah you're just talking about the power of of being close to that and the energy that comes with that what is it about the ocean and nature that makes you feel like it's a great place to be around? I think we've all got to find our place of solace. Some will say it's the bush. Some will say it's on their farm. Some will say it's in their boat. Some will say it's camping.

58:18For me, it's just a beach, you know? I find a lot of peace there, particularly at night. At night? Light night? No one's there.

58:30It's peaceful. So night walks on the beach? I'm just observing the beach by night. I'll often sit here with a cigar just looking over the beach. Moonlit nights, beautiful. I would love to unpack this a bit more because before we pressed record, I said, what have you been pondering on recently? And you're like, I spend most of my days pondering. Yes. And one of people's biggest challenges is actually sitting in silence, I was pondering. And I definitely had challenges with that early in business. I remember when I had this failing software company and we were losing all the investors' money. Right.

59:11And I would walk around this golf course in Rose Bay in Sydney. Mm-hmm. And it was a tough phase of my life where we were two 18-year-olds. We'd raised all this money and we were running this software company that just was failing. And... And I remember just walking around the golf course and I couldn't even, I couldn't even be in my own thoughts. Yes. So I would FaceTime people and I couldn't not. And so I'd just go down my contacts list and just go, go, go, go, just FaceTime. Yeah. Or a podcast, but then I'd play the podcast for five minutes and I'd change to music and I would noise. But now like the greatest joy I have is solitude and peace and quiet.

59:57And what developed that for me was during COVID when I was living alone and actually was just forced to be alone. And it started allowing me to develop an intimate relationship with myself. But what is it about the quiet and spending so many of your hours just alone and pondering that you enjoy? It's a good question. I mean, there are some differences here between the sexes. We know that women need to fill up their emotional, far more emotional creatures than we are. And I think that they find their peace in the group. They find that connection. They find that importance of being able to connect and be able to converse.

1:00:44And they almost discuss their problems in order to solve. Does that make sense? Where instead of filling up, men are quite different. We need to let go and release. and I think in that quiet time it's very easy to find that release. Now, it's not an easy task as you pointed out. It's very, very difficult to be with your own thoughts for extended periods of time but it's invaluable. You and I really get to hone who we are. We process things. It allows us to deepen some of those qualities that we admire. And even in the highs though, it's the main thing I want to do as well. Yes. You know, when you go through the challenge, you want to solve it yourself and you kind of want to sit in it and you want to see what comes up.

1:01:37But then the highs as well, it's like a common theme of no matter what phase you're in, when you can be gifted the ability to be comfortable alone and sitting in your thoughts, it becomes this thing that you want to do so much of. and um i wonder sometimes i ponder and i think just wanting to be alone is it a form of like escape or is it actually just a form of not feeling like you need anyone and genuinely feeling that because there's days where i just spend them all by myself with with ease um and then i might go and hang out with one friend and we're all bubbly and alive and having such a great time and then I'll go back alone.

1:02:22Yeah. And then my head will hit the pillow, I'm alone. And I'm so fine with it. Yeah. And I often wonder whether it's like either an escape because I used to be so bubbly and out there and want to be center of attention and want to have all these people around me. And now it's quite the opposite. I just wonder if it's a natural progression or if it's some form of escape away from something. It's very valid. I would say it's progression. I would say it's maturity. It's all well and good to be social and very influential. We've all been through those phases of our personality. But I think particularly as men, as we evolve, I think that time alone is priceless.

1:03:07It just gives us time to think. We just don't need the noise. There's enough of that going on in our lives. Between business, home, family, intimate relationships, there's a lot of moving parts for a man. And I think that peace is something that we find a lot of solitude and strength in. Does that make sense? Yeah. I wouldn't see it as a, as a, um, in a regularity. I'd actually see it as a bit of blessing. I see it as that, but I guess I'm in the state where I'm trying to be so open-minded and not speak indefinites. And so I'm going, oh, I think this is good. I don't know it's good. Sure. It's serving me at the moment.

1:03:45And if I feel a different way, I feel called to do something else, I'm going to do that. But, but I don't know if it's positive. Like I think it is right now. Right. Oh, but I guess it's just this open-ended nature of exploring my thoughts to see if they're actually valid. You know, um, we just released a podcast. We filmed this big production in Sedona. We hiked all this production equipment and a generator up to the top of a summit and built the set. It was ridiculous. Cool. Um, and it was just two guys in their young twenties trying to talk about why you should not believe your limitations.

1:04:22And anyway, but the thing that I… Did that help you carry the generator? Sorry? Did that help you carry the generator? Yeah. I was like, you're not sore, man. Keep going up these steps. Limits while limits. Let's go. Yeah. Let's do it. It's like, until it's possible, like, yeah, it's only impossible until you do it. So let's just do it. And, um, but, but the, the piece here is just, um, so many of us have these paper walls in our life. We sit, we, we box ourself in and think that that's all there is. And then as soon as something breaks it, it opens your mind to what else is out there and you go, oh no, I can do that.

1:04:59The four minute mile, like the electricity was made with like self-driving cars, everything, right? We don't believe something is possible until it happens. So then the thing that I try and ponder on is like with my thoughts and why I'm saying, I don't know if this is a good thing or not, because the less I speak in definites, the more I find I unlock all these other things that are actually, they're not actually real. Yeah, that's good. And I try and expand it. And perhaps even just that solitude time allows you to think that because you start unpacking all this stuff and you go, I really don't know anything.

1:05:35Like I need to, I need to keep, like, I actually don't know. So true. And it's powerful. I want to dive into, we've spoken about the lessons that you're trying to instill into your kids. Your dad was a coal miner. Yeah. Was there any key lessons you learned from him growing up that helped shape you as a man? Definitely. My father demonstrated the utmost tenacity. you know he would be a coal miner 12 hours of the day underground like just shocking conditions dust and like it was just it was the 80s and then he'd come home from night shift and he'd work this little business as a furniture removalist through the day like he'd do 16 19 hour days 20 hour days regularly.

1:06:26I just thought, this kind of stops. And not knowing, but a lot of my friends' parents didn't work like that. They just didn't. We all make choices. But he was very good at working hard. Yeah. That was one of the lessons he instilled. And certainly integrity. He would always do things with a degree of honesty. Always. Didn't matter what it was. If he got ripped off, stitched up, didn't work out that's fine he'd always use a saying i get to lie straight in bed

1:06:58sometimes the simplest sayings are the most powerful hey yes i was uh i was in the jungle in bali and this random guy was eardropping listening to my whole facetime chat with my uh with my best friend i just had my phone turned off for two days and i was just in a tree house by myself. And, um, first person I call when I turn my phone back on was my best mate. And we were chatting at this coffee shop for like an hour. And the guy next to me was listening to the whole chat and then he like chimed in and anything. Next minute I'm chatting to this guy for two hours. And when I sat down next to him, I moved over to Ches.

1:07:35He had a full meal next to him. And, uh, an hour later he hasn't touched the meal. And it was this full breakfast meal. And I was like, is that your meal? He's like, yeah, it all comes out brown. It doesn't matter if it's hot or cold. I just felt like, it's such a stupid comment, but at the same time, it's fair. It's food. It's food. He's prioritizing the connection, having a chat, and it's still going to nourish his body the same way it will, and it's still going to come out the same way. And I think any of these frames that we can use that give us this nature of like, like it's all going to be okay yeah like i get to lie flat yeah i got a nice pillow today it's familiar yeah i think those are those are really cool would you say that the work ethic of your dad then helped you early days in that in that nature of okay i'm going into business in my young like in my early 20s and i'm um i'm gonna i'm gonna work i'm gonna work my ass off and and and really build something do you think that was a big influence for you yeah sure yeah it was the catalyst that put things together fairly quickly in those early days.

1:08:47Would you say that you still are in a state where you're working really, really hard or would you say that it's dropped off quite a fair bit? Oh, no, no. I mean, when you say work hard, I haven't done that for quite a while, but I am very much engaged when I say that. I don't work hard, I just work deliberately. So it's in a very measured fashion. So I have the benefit of being able to think about staff, ponder, you know, what matters, what's a priority, where are things at, what are projects doing, where are we, you know, in terms of investment, you know, are we working our assets hard, all those types of things.

1:09:27And then I have the fortuitous ability to be able to delegate, you know, among a good team. How do you think that rubs off on your son seeing you? Because if the thing that drove you to work hard was seeing your dad work hard, I mean, I guess the difference point is your son gets to see how much success and everything you've created for yourself. And so maybe there's a nature there where it's inspiring in the same way. But do you ever think about that? Yeah, it's a very good question, actually. You know, if they see dad sitting around the couch all day and, you know, on the boat every other day, they're not really getting a real view, a real understanding of what hard work looks like.

1:10:09But back in the early days, when my kids were younger, they would certainly be on the tools, renovating houses when I was buying and selling and what have you back in those days. My younger daughter, my youngest daughter, is probably a little different. She's certainly got the life of a princess. She's very fortunate. But with that, there will come a time where her and I buy a whatever and renovate it. And then she'll be on the barra. She'll be on the paintbrush. She'll be doing it all. And then to start to get an appreciation for what that feels like. Why do you think that's important for your daughter to have that?

1:10:44Well, everyone needs to understand hard work. If you don't value that, you don't value the resultant. Do you? So how do you find the difference, the discernment of timeframes from treating her like a princess and then making her understand hard work? Yeah, look, we have these conversations. That's probably what makes it easier. And she's under no illusion of what it took to be here. No illusion. I'm very quick to tell her when she was born. I was on the road 260 days, 270 days a year in an airport somewhere looking at projects, doing this, doing deals. So she's aware of those, but that time will come.

1:11:26And it's not very far away. She's 11 now. I reckon 15, 16. she's going to be saving a deposit for a house and then we'll buy something and then she can repay me. But then she'll be the property manager and she'll have to let the individual bedrooms in the house and her and I will renovate it. I don't care how long it takes, six months, a year, year and a half. We're doing it. That's how it's going to be. See, I really like this lens of how you're tying to the outcome of what we're actually getting from this. It's not about the, you're taking the lessons that you've learned from, it's not about the money, it's about who you became earning the money.

1:11:59You're taking those lessons when parenting with your kids and going, it's actually not about the finished house. It's not about the big business. It's about having her understand how much work went into building it and having her understand how much work it is to maintain being a property manager. And the skillset that she's learning from that is the actual value in it. The value is in, strangely, the value is in suffering, is learning what it feels like to be in pain. And suffering's okay. In the modern day, we've got every pharmaceutical available to us to avoid pain. Pain is a natural state of love.

1:12:41We get to appreciate the goodness of what it's like to not be in pain only by knowing the opposite. True or false? True. So the struggle and the pain and the sacrifice of working hard and putting in a good day's effort and being focused and having blisters on your hand are all necessary parts to valuing what it's like to have freedom. True. Yeah. So for men and women? Absolutely. If we want equality, Chris, they should be on the barra too, right? It should be shoveling concrete also, right? It's a quality, isn't it? Yeah, I just wonder if that's actually what they want. I guess - Quality is what they want.

1:13:28That's what a quality translates to. Yeah, I just wonder, I don't want a woman that's doing all of that stuff all the time. Um, so is the goal to get in there and then for her to understand it. So she appreciates hard work and then get her out because like, I guess like she's going to not be really in a feminine, getting her hands dirty in the, in the concrete. You have a very, very traditional type value set, don't you? I would, I would say so, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm exploring it, but I, and I'm trying to be very open-minded with it, but I try and, um, I'm just solely going based on what my desire and what I feel.

1:14:13It's all a personal preference. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So do you think that she should now shoulder up with your journey or are you the kind of person that will build the empire and then she gets to live in it? What do you mean shoulder up? Well, if she's going to share in the idea of you guys doing something together, is she coming along for the journey? Is she working with you, beside you? Is she working hard in her own cause or is she going to be a stay-at-home person? Yeah, I guess the thing for me is the things we spoke about earlier around support, belief, a calmness, making the house a home, that nature, and then the decisions, encouraging the decisions to be made on passion and desire for her.

1:14:57So whether that is not survival and feeling like she needs this stuff, right? And so I guess that was the piece for me is whether it's on the same mission, whether it's doing her own thing, whatever it is. I guess the thing that I just draw back to is when the girl that I was just with had this massive ear to ear smile and was so passionate and bubbly and excited, not stressed. Like, oh, I don't want that. And so whatever can allow her to thrive in herself, I want to encourage that. So I don't think it's a black and white approach of roles or anything. It's more about like the feeling and the time we spend together and what that's like is probably the thing.

1:15:37And I guess the piece, if I want to be able to have her be able to do that and live in that lens, I need to be able to be in a position to give her the freedom to do that, whether it is not do anything or do everything. Right. And so that's probably where my lens is. Would you say that that's unrealistic? It's not shared by the masses, is it? I think most men today in the age of equality are giving women the ability to work. Go contribute. You can pay half the mortgage. Your values or your ideas or your morals around that are quite different, quite unique. You're basically saying that I'll go produce, provide, and then with those resources, you get to choose whether you do a lot or a little or nothing.

1:16:27Yeah. Do you think if people spend enough time alone as men and ponder and look within, they'll remove a lot of the societal norms and things and actually get down to decisions that they actually want and things that are actually going to bring them more fulfillment, more joy and more peace in their life? Because for me, I'm just saying it because it feels so common sense to me. Like it just feels so, and it's not even, it's removing agendas and just thinking, spending so much time in thought and alone and feeling and pondering that I just feel like it's the only thing that makes sense for me.

1:17:04And I don't judge people that don't have that, but for me, I struggle to relate. That's all. I guess the thing for me, and I get the piece on this is I'm just trying to remove everything that I see online, anything, the things I relate to, the things I don't, and not take anything as gospel and take it into my consciousness, assess it, and then go, does that serve me or does it serve the greater good or not? And if it does, then great. If it doesn't, then just disregard it. That's just how I'm trying to navigate. I don't really know what's right or wrong. I'm just trying to go off what feels right and feels like it's serving the greater good and what I think is a great message for the world.

1:17:56Tell me about business and the season that you're in. The podcast that we did last time, you said you're in the season of altruism, and I love that. What would you say is your season and would it still be in that realm? And what's been your focus business-wise at the moment? I guess the theme that I adopt now is just how can we do more with less? So less input of my time and less input of my energies. I want to see people around me flourish. I want to see them grow. I want to see them step into that place. So leverage. Just because I can doesn't mean that you can't, right? I mean, there's a lot of very intelligent people around me and mostly women.

1:18:41in that organization that I think have an enormous amount of potential and capacity. And they're proving that they're able and very willing to do a better job than they. So what's the phase? What do you term it? Look, I want to be able to do more with less. So yeah, use your leverage, I guess, in a sense. Be able to... I mean, leverage is a little bit brash, but it's not like I'm dancing off into the afraid of disappearing you know i'm still engaged i'm still involved but it's you know today it's more about the acute decisions that need to be made not much else yeah well i guess from my perspective the the amount of time isn't as powerful and important as the quality of time oh yes even just with parenting it's like okay you get eight hours to spend with your kid after work but you're just watching Netflix the whole time oh okay you get an hour in their lunch break but it's like you're fully there which one's better I mean one's a lot more one's a lot less but perhaps the kid's going to remember the the one hour at lunch when you took her out of school not the eight hours of you watching Netflix and like half listening to what she's saying um and so if if we apply that to every area of life it may be like when I talk about increasing leverage, it's realizing, okay, well, I know that per minute I'm more powerful than I used to be in this realm and I can make more of an impact with less.

1:20:13So they don't feel like they're getting less of me. They're still getting the same. It's just maybe less hours. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And I would also say too, that coupled with the idea of probably just using more power in the commercial space rather than force. I don't need to do every deal now. Does that make sense? So we're very selective. We're very deliberate in how we attack things today. There's much more of a battle plan in place than there used to be. So what do you mean, let's break the difference between power and force? Yeah, great question. I mean, I've watched over the last few years how we have been very busy as an organization, as a group.

1:20:58And we've accomplished much financially, certainly. However, to me, there's a changing of the guard. That starts with you and I, the person, the CEO, the decision maker, essentially. But what's happened is that I don't want to be busy anymore. I just want to be effective. I don't want to have 15 projects going at one time. I want to have five or six that are very fruitful, incredibly profitable. And as a group, just drill deep into those. And that's been now our game plan for the last year, 15 months. And it's been very different, very different. And you enjoying it? Upmost. Yeah. It has been such a shift in thinking.

1:21:48It's been nice, actually. It's been very refreshing because, you know, rather than just being looking at every deal It's just sort of almost like an orchestrated chaos. It's just very, very unique to sort of go, that's a deal. It's going to work. Let's press into that and just follow it through. So, yeah, it's been rather different. Does any of the global economy and things happening globally, wars, politics, does any of that dictate decisions you make in business? Yes, it does. Of course it does, yes. They're all, to me, they're all ailments that point in a particular direction. So sentiment drives markets, not government policy, not monetary policy, not the fiscal policy, not the RBA, not Albanese.

1:22:40It's sentiment. So if you can read sentiment, and if you know things are going to be bad, then you produce opportunity to capture the bad. Does that make sense? So, see, this is interesting. So, when you see bad, you see opportunity. I see opportunity in bad or good. It's just more prevalent in bad because people freak out. Hmm. Sentiment. Sentiment shifts. People get a bit scared, a bit wobbly, and irrational. Right. So, if you can stay calm in that state, the upside for growth is far greater. Fivefold. see okay this is this is interesting piece so the there's probably a common denominator in people that succeed is they succeed a lot more in the in the in the turmoil yes because that's where most people will crumble yes of course so reframing the bad time as an opportunity as opposed to a place to retreat and protect is the difference point of when they succeed and and not i guess you need to know where to drill the hole though, right?

1:23:50Like you need to know where to capitalize in the low times, I guess. Yes. How do you know? If you're in business and you're in commerce of some degree, and if you're good as you are at a particular skill, you're going to know where to apply that. But just pick the trough rather than the peak. In a peak time, I don't make a lot of investment decisions. How do you know when it's a peak? Well, you have a look at the frothy numbers being thrown around. Sentiment. If everyone's buying a caravan and renovating a house and putting a pool in their backyard, that's a clue.

1:24:29That's great. We've been doing that for five years since COVID, six years since COVID. That's madness. That's absolute madness. So I don't do much in those times, but now it's starting to shift down. It's shifting down quickly. What's changing at the moment? I've told you twice. What do you think? Cinnamon? Cinnamon. Are people more confident now or scared? Scared. There's your shit. All right. And so then - They're pulling back now. They're reluctant to spend. Cost of living, it's everywhere. Interest rates, fuel prices. Perfect. I hope fuel goes to$10 a fucking letter. Less traffic.

1:25:15it's fair to say there'll be much more opportunity i don't make the rules i just play and this is going to be significant make no mistake there'll be 14s man yeah this next 24 months is going to be quite dark what makes you think that Well, you only have to look very, you have to look at Trump's agenda. There's no ceasefire. He wants chaos. That's what we've got. Because amidst chaos is where money's went.

1:25:59He's doubled the price of oil, hasn't he? It's a triple. That's a good business. All his domestic production supplies domestic needs. What do you make from that sentiment? I think there's an undertone. At the moment, we're seeing a lot of negativity, but really it's opportunity. People are scared, fearful, and you watch, assets will devalue. It's what they do when they become irrational. Interest rates are rising. People are becoming more worried, more fearsome. for the people that are feared and worried, they could be listening to this and they could now recognize that. Okay, I'm catching myself in a pretty immense amount of fear, uncertainty, stress, a bit more on edge.

1:27:00What do you think is a key to be able to help them get out of that? Great question. Because not everyone wants fuel prices to go to$10. Become more educated. Just invest in you. There's a lot of fake news, you know that. But ask yourself, what's going to happen when things go bad? Look for that. Look for the answers to that. Study history. Look at the GFC. Look at COVID. What happened? Quiet time. Solo time. Sit down. No noise. No Instagram reels. Just take some time and think. if I was to position myself in a place of opportunity, what would I do now? And there's plenty of answers. There's plenty going on right now.

1:27:46I mean, I think of so many businesses now the last couple of months since Trump basically picked a war. You can think that are exploding in terms of growth, right? COVID was the same. GFC was the same. Ride that wave.

1:28:06It's pretty profound. On the note of Trump, we walked into your office today and saw a photo of you and him on the shelf over there. You've mentioned before that he's been quite a big influence for you in your real estate journey and helping you succeed. What are some of the key things you've learned from Trump back then when building and what are some of the things you're observing now with how he's acting? Yeah, that's good insight. I would say, look, years ago, it was about the creativity of the deal. To do real estate at scale, you've got to have a different point of view. You can't just see it as transactional.

1:28:46And what he was able to do within many instances, when you really start to digest his material, he's nothing short of genius. For whatever he is with the quiff and all the bad press he gets and what have you, the guy has got an acumen that is unmatched. To have that level of brazenness to sit with a government and tell them this is how they should develop a billion-dollar project, give me tax incentives to do it, and I'll go and do it. I mean, no one thinks that way. It was unique at the time and still is. What has he taught me today? Decisiveness. We won't make this conversation political, but you'd have to agree that he's been decisive in what he's done to date.

1:29:43And no one previous to him under any leadership in the last 70 years of office has had that level of ability to execute. He's seen a problem in the Middle East. They're being a bit naughty. They're definitely developing a nuclear program. Let's go sort it out. No one does that. Very different. Decisiveness. this. You see, I've found, obviously I post a lot of content and sometimes I'll reference people that maybe aren't loved at times. And I don't reference them because they're not loved or because I love them. I just reference them because something that left their mouth was quite profound or the way that they're acting is quite profound.

1:30:34I think it's productive. That's a good filter. Right. But when I post something, they see the name, they write it off straight away. I cannot believe that you were talking about a sex offender. They'll just say something, and I'm just like, he was in the Epstein files. I can't believe you're talking about him. Whatever they want to throw on it, right? I just go, get out of your own way. You're missing the opportunity to see the lesson in what they're saying. You may not like them. They may not be a net positive in your mind. In your mind is the key. But you can't disregard that sometimes when someone says something that is quite credible, it's quite profound.

1:31:20And you could probably take that lesson, onboard it and make your life better. And by making your life better, you can show up in a better way and make everyone else's life better. So by you shutting down this person's thought because you just don't like him or her, you're stripping away not only your opportunity to grow, but everyone else's that can grow from when you on board and grow yourself. And I think what you said there is powerful. Okay. Trump, he's decisive. He knows what he wants. He identifies things and he goes for it. Some merit in that. How can you apply that in your life? It's not something that you're on the fence with.

1:31:58And for those that are throwing criticism at you for the statement you just revealed, they remain uneducated. They remain stuck there with I don't like him, I don't like her. And all of a sudden, everything else is jaded. You're right. Yeah. Yeah, you've said before around the key to escape poverty is education. Yes, it is. Yeah. I'm not talking academia when I say education. What are you referencing? The street smarts, becoming wiser, learning how the system works. Yeah. It's not about academia. It's not going to school per se. I think to remove yourself from poverty is becoming intelligent around the conversation of money.

1:32:44That's not taught in academia, right? So it's a different direction altogether. Yeah. So if we're tying it into matrix or whatever you want to call it, the system, I guess the whole goal of education is to break free from that, meaning being aware of what is going on, not just being a part of it or a victim to what they're trying to achieve. It's just assessing what's happening and going, is that actually real? You'll learn a lot about things when you ask that question. Is that actually real? Is the fear I have going to make me die? No. Why am I scared? Are all these things that I'm instilled into me real or are they all these paper walls, these made-up boundaries.

1:33:35Yeah. Maybe that, is that what you're saying is referencing education as well, becoming more aware of what's happening? Look, I think education can be summed up very simply, Chris. It's being around those people that have already done it. If there's one shortcut version that I learned very quickly at a young age, was get around those that have already accomplished what I was setting out to do. I want to sit with them. I want to learn from them. I want to be able to understand how they think. I want to walk like them. I want to get to know how they make decisions. That's what I did. As a project manager, I want to be around the good PMs, the guys that could build the Woolworths in 29 weeks.

1:34:16Who's that? Oh, let's go work with Michael. He's great. When it came into property, it was no different. There were some absolute guns at the time that were really doing well. You know, how do I splice that knowledge into my world? How do I do that? How do I do that at a high level? So it takes too long to learn things, I feel. It's very, very easy to copy.

1:34:45True. Yeah. There's nothing new here. There's nothing new here. It's about taking what is and trying to magnify or make it better. That's all. Yeah, and so that would be more in the context of thriving in the material world and in the external world because you can see people doing well, copy them and probably achieve something or a version of that. Andy Elliott was saying, he says underdogs crush goliaths. And what he was referencing is you need to find the cracks in the castles and then make them better into yourself. It's like you copy them, but you find what they're not doing well and they're way too big to even identify what they're not doing well.

1:35:29That's good. Get that. Go. That's really good. But I think the key piece here is and what we've been tying in for this whole conversation around leveling up as a person and knowing who you are and building up all those traits, right? Copying definitely doesn't unlock a lot of fulfillment, I find. You can achieve the things, but the deep knowing of what's actually aligned with you, I don't think you should be looking outwardly for that. I feel that there's a, and this is just from my personal experience, I feel that there's a nature of going like, let's see what people are doing. And if we want what they have, we should probably copy what they've done because it's proven it works.

1:36:13but at the same time if we can tie in a way that aligns with our uniqueness who we are not only will we be able to achieve that we'll be at a slingshot way further because it's aligned with us that's probably how they got to where they are and then equally on top of that we're going to feel a lot better doing so as well trying to find this balance maybe it's an unrealistic view but i think if you're trying to tick a box materially or externally then probably copying is a is a great way to to get it but um if you're forever in that state i wonder if uh it results in a life that you actually want i appreciate you coming on i uh yeah as i said when when we last spoke i i just get a lot from you and um i'm very grateful to have come across your stuff and being gifted time with you as well.

1:37:06It's been really awesome just to learn from you and see how you operate, see how your mind works. And it's really inspiring. There's a lot of aspects of your life that I inspire to have as well. And I appreciate you sitting down again for the second time. You're so welcome, man. Thank you. Kudos. Most of us are one good deal away from finally replacing that worn out rug, fixing up the backyard or getting the bedroom we actually want. Good news. That deal's almost here. Wayfair's Black Friday in July sale. Get up to 80 % off area rugs and up to 60 % off outdoor and bedroom furniture. Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space.

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