#135: Let's talk about ego...

0:00I'm going to ask you a question to start this off. Do you think that ego is bad and that we should play our part in trying to eliminate it from our life entirely? You see, I used to believe this for quite a long time. In fact, I even made a podcast titled Delete Your Ego. But then I realized that the pursuit of deleting your ego is an ego-driven pursuit. oh look how egoless I am fueled by ego I've been playing around with this concept a lot because I've been trying to get to the bottom of ego and I don't think that it's about eliminating it in fact I don't think we can escape it the important thing we need to recognize is we need to make it not be in the driver's seat we need to allow ourselves to not let ego decide the decisions that we make and steer the ship that we're driving through this thing called life.

1:05And I've dove deep on this and I've spent many early mornings thinking about ego because I question myself. I question myself, am I saying things from the lens of being in a moral high horse? Am I elevating myself above everyone else because I'm not fueled by ego because I used to be and then I've grown and overcome that and now I'm not fueled by ego? Or is that an ego pursuit as well?

1:34And yeah, I don't have the answers for this. And so this podcast is exploring this. There's a couple of cool things that I'm going to draw on today. Things that I can read you, quotes from people that I love. And hopefully we can come up with some cool stuff during this conversation. But one of the things I want to read first is a quote from Ryan Holiday. The ego is an unhealthy belief in our own importance. The ego is an unhealthy belief in our own importance. We think we're important. And that's the problem. You know, I talk about this a bit, but when you're flying over a city and you look down and see all of the lights and then you realize that each one of those lights is powering at least one person, sometimes a family, you realize that, wow, I am so insignificant.

2:27Not a single person there is thinking about me right now. And the more of these moments that I can put myself in that remind me that I am not shit, the less my ego is in the driving seat. But the ego lurks around and it plays a role at you. As a man, we seek for recognition and respect. And a lot of the times when we feel like we're lacking, we need our ego to overcompensate, to stand at the forefront so that we can be reminded of how great we are so that we can believe it. And it's twisted. It's not powerful. It doesn't serve us. The ego is here screaming, overextending so that people can validate us because we're not feeling validated by ourself.

3:14I don't think that serves us and so for me when I'm going in this quest of trying to understand ego I really try and strip it back and I try and think about the things in my life the moments in my life the way people are feeling around me the way people are you know uh wanting to hang out the way people are talking about me to others like all of these things are a good indicator of how they're feeling from the interaction they've had with me. And a lot of the time, if I'm fueled by ego, they're not going to feel very good about hanging out with me. So while I might get immediate gratification because, you know, I'm being able to pump my own tires up or they're being able to see an inflated version of me, it's still going to be a hollow pursuit because you know that they're not going to be liking you for you.

4:06And I'm going to read you a piece on ego that I think is honestly quite powerful. We mistake this for ourselves. There's a voice inside most of us that we've mistaken for ourselves. It speaks in the first person. It uses our name. It tells us what to defend, who to impress, when to retreat, and when to attack. We've listened to it for so long that we've stopped questioning whether it's actually on our side. We call it me, but it isn't. It's the ego. And for most of our lives, it's been quietly running the show. Ego is the part of us that needs to be right, that needs the world to confirm a story we've decided to tell about ourselves.

4:50And the moment that story is threatened, it goes to war. For men, ego becomes armor. We're taught to derive our worth from what we achieve and what we conquer. The problem is the armor that protected the boy ends up suffocating the man. You can't be intimate while wearing it. You can't be coached. Male ego would rather be respected than understood, would rather win the argument than keep the relationship. For women, ego often wears a different costume. Where male ego attaches to being important, female ego attaches to being good. Good enough? Liked enough? Capable enough? It shows up as perfectionism, as the quiet exhaustion of carrying everyone.

5:30Different costume, same prison. You can't eliminate ego. The work is to demote it, to move it out of the driver's seat. It still has opinions, you just stop letting it choose the destination. So here's the question. Where in my life is ego pretending to be principle? That's where the work is. That's always where the work is. Where in my life is ego being principle? Where is the ego running the show? And what I love about this is because everyone listening to this is probably into self-help. They want to better themselves. They want to strive for better lives. But oftentimes we look externally to improve our internal and that never works.

6:21You see, the biggest change in my whole life this year has been switching my focus from external to internal. Instead of trying to gain external validation, I've tried to wake up early in the morning and sit in silence. Instead of trying to gain vanity metrics, I've tried to understand more about myself. You know, we strive so much externally in this material world. And while that can be great, it's not the thing that actually matters. It's never been the thing that actually matters. We've just been tricked into thinking that it does. The ego, as Grace and Heart said, the ego is the king of the material world.

7:07And God is the king of the internal world. Love. And sometimes the ego can be great when we use it to our advantage. But when it's steering the ship, I don't think it becomes a smooth sail. I don't think that when our ego is the main thing making the decisions, it results to anything that we actually want in longevity. You see, we can get from zero to one quite quickly. We can use our ego and fuel it in a toxic way to help slingshot us forward, but it won't keep us going. And when you see these people live their lives in a way that they have all of the things that you're striving for and they're still operating in a state of ego, it's clear to me that something is wrong.

8:03Because while they're validating their life from the external things, but they have all of the external things and still feel like they need more, surely i mean at least for me that's saying that what they have is not already enough so if they're showing up in a way that everything that they have is what everyone's trying to achieve and then in their mind it's still not enough so they need to strive for more and more i wonder if that's the ego getting in the way. The ego telling us that what we have right now is not enough. The ego that's telling us who we are right now is not enough. So we need to overextend, be extra loud so that people can validate us and the external world and the external things can validate us of our worth because we don't feel it within us.

9:01You know, at the end of that line, And it says, so here's the question. Where in my life is ego pretending to be principle? Pretending to be principle is the key. Because it's not. That's where the work is. That's always where the work is. The work ultimately, this self-help quest that we all seem to be on to better our lives. Ultimately, it is internal. It's the ultimate key. The only thing we need to recognize and be aware of is the fact that when we experience and are exposed to so many external things, we start to develop desires. And a lot of the time, we can't just dissolve those desires until we embark on the journey.

9:47It's not about not having the nice things. It's not about not achieving the desires. But it's about doing it in a way that's aligned with you, that's making... a better impact on the world, or at least your perception of it is a better impact of the world. And you're doing it in a way that makes you feel like you don't need those things, but you want those things. Because when you're coming from a state of need, it'd be fascinating to see how much you overextend from an ego standpoint so that you can get the thing that you feel like you need. And then on top of that, I wonder if the energy that you give off by needing something and overextending because you need that thing, I wonder if the energy that you give off is even an abundant energy.

10:35The abundant energy that starts to invite everything else in. All of the things that you ever wanted starts flowing in when you have an abundant energy because in the ebbs and flows, things just come and go. And so maybe if we feel like we need something, we start overextending to chase and by doing that we give off an energy that makes us feel like we need it which is scarce which then as a byproduct of that it makes it harder to achieve all the external things in the first place so then i wonder where ego plays a positive role that's interesting

11:16aside from the things that are around having you know those short sprints of uh like you did me wrong and i'm gonna prove you wrong or aside from all of the kind of things that get you from zero to one or the negative fuels that can help slingshot you and propel you into your life I wonder where ego plays a positive role.

11:41Maybe it doesn't, but maybe we can't escape it. And I'm just exploring this with you guys. To be completely frank, I actually don't know. I'm exploring this. But maybe it doesn't serve us at all, but we can't escape it. And so recognizing it is the power. Just like a bad vice. Just like a negative thing that happens in our life, but no matter how much we try and dissolve it, it just keeps on popping up. The temptation's real, lust is real. Maybe ego is another version of that. And so maybe it's not actually about using it for better. It's about making sure that you're aware of it and when it's starting to creep in.

12:22I'll give you an example. Just before recording this, I've been sitting or lying with my leg elevated on an ice pack on my hamstring. I torn my hamstring yesterday playing AFL in America. I never would have thought I would have been playing AFL in California, but I was. And anyway, here's a lesson around ego. I have not picked up one of those Sharons in years. And for all you Americans listening, a Sharon is an Australian football. And for all of you guys that don't even know what AFL is. It's like an Australian football league. It's a massive field. It's 18 a team. It's pretty extreme. If you watch it, you'll be blown away.

13:08There's lots of tackling. It's very rough. It's very physically, you need to be very fit and healthy. You'll run like 15 kilometers in a game while you're sprinting, tackling, all of the thing. And I used to play it at a really high level. I actually wanted to get drafted playing AFL when I was the captain of the Gold Coast Suns Academy, which is a talent academy back in Australia. And I have not played. I hung up the boots when I was 18 years old. I'm now 24. So I've not played a game since then, but I've gone to a couple of training sessions among the years, but I've probably not picked up a Sharon for like three years.

13:43And a Sharon is the type of football that we use. Now, I decided after spending a week up in the mountains with Hunter doing altitude training, that I was going to come back and I was going to play at the local football club here and just roll straight into a game. Now, knowing that, what I should have done is I should have probably gone to the gym an hour before rocking up to the field. And I should have done mobility on my legs. I should have done lots of like strength work, Nordics and all these things on my hamstrings to get warm. Because I know that my hamstrings are prone to injuries when I'm going at fast pace.

14:22This is like 110 % speed. You're going all out. You're sprinting. You're darting around. It's quite an intense pursuit. Even if I'm fit being able to run up a mountain, trying to run on one of these football fields is another whole ball game. And anyway, I did my warm-up, everything. I got there on time. I didn't end up going to the gym. I didn't do any of this stuff. I went there and then just did a few extra leg swings, a few extra hamstring strengthening things, and then I rolled into the game. Four minutes into the game, ping, I feel my hamstring go. I dart into the field, and I run in, and I catch this mark that was, it was getting kicked down the line, and anyway, it like missed the kick, and I darted in, caught the mark, and as I caught it, I landed.

15:09And when I felt my leg land, I just felt it go. instantly I was like oh no not this again right this is why I don't play football because I don't want to get injured but because I'd only been four minutes out I was it was fun it was exciting I went off for a second felt it around did a couple of little like jumps to make sure it was okay I knew it was off but I couldn't bear myself to sit out after that the ego got in the way So I went back out again and started trying to play. I was limping around the field trying to play. What am I thinking, right? And then I keep doing it and I keep doing it.

15:51And it gets worse and worse and worse. And like 10, 15 minutes after getting back on the field, I'm off again but can barely walk. Why did I do that, Chris? Why? Was it because that I was a relatively one of the best players on the team because in America and I was an Australian guy and so I could play quite well and I wanted to show them up? That's ego driven. Was it because I was so excited? Yeah, was it fun? Yeah, probably a combination of all these things. But really, if no one was watching and I was having that much fun, I probably would have just stopped. I would have been like, that's enough for today.

16:38And I'm just being frank. I probably would have. But because there was all these people there, I wanted to put on a show, I wanted to play well, I kept pushing it. And now I can barely walk. I've been putting ice on my leg every single hour since this happened 24 hours ago. And it got me thinking around ego because I just start to ask the question. I start to go, how do we not let it steer the ship? It's clear as day that that was steering the ship in that moment. What else was? Why would I keep going out into a football field when there's no reason to do so? I'm not winning a premiership. I'm not even playing.

17:20It was a practice match. Why would I go back out there and injure myself even more? What's the point? Now I can't run up hills and I can't do all the training and all the things that I love. my whole life feels compromised because I'm getting a burning, stinging sensation down my whole left leg. Why did I do it? Well, the ego was steering the ship. So next time it happens, or if I go back on that field, yeah, I can prepare more and everything. But when it happens, how do I act? I think this is a really good compass. When it happened and I went off the field and I'm sitting there in pain, pondering whether I go back out.

18:05Chris, going out would be letting your ego steer the ship and that never works out well. You've come way too far to be letting your ego steer the ship. So I don't think it's about eliminating ego. I don't think we should be using these terms of delete your ego. Maybe just kick him out of the front seat. Chuck him in the trunk, as you Americans might say. We would call it the boot. Chuck it in the boot and let him be there, be aware he's there, but don't let him grab the wheel. Because the moment he's grabbing the wheel, I honestly don't know if it serves us. I don't think it allows us to be a better person.

18:45And this is interesting. Maybe we could go back to this piece in this essay around the difference between men and women and the ego and how it plays a different role. I'm going to read it again and then let's explore. And obviously I can only really touch on the men because I don't know what it's like to be a woman. But with the women listening to this, leave a comment down below if you relate to how ego shows up in your life with being a woman. And maybe we can pull up some other stuff to see if we can elaborate on this. But yeah, I'm keen to explore what the differences might be. and if you guys can contribute as women, if you relate to any of this stuff, please let me know.

19:31The different challenges men and women face with ego. For men, ego becomes armor. We're taught to derive our worth from what we achieve and what we conquer. The problem is the armor that protected the boy ends up suffocating the man. You can't be intimate while wearing it. You can't be coached. Male ego would rather be respected than understood, would rather win the argument than keep the relationship. For women, ego often wears a different costume. Where male ego attaches to being important, female ego attaches to being good. Good enough, liked enough, capable enough. It shows up as perfectionism, as the quiet exhaustion of carrying everyone.

20:16Different costume, same prison. hmm you see for men ego becomes armor deriving our worth from what we achieve and what we conquer see now this part is interesting the problem is the armor that protected the boy ends up suffocating the man the armor that ended up protecting the boy ends up suffocating the man I wonder what that means. Protecting the boy ends up suffocating the man.

21:04Maybe I look this up.

21:12i'm filming a podcast on the challenges that men face with ego and one of the things that an essay said was the armor that protected the boy ends up suffocating the man what do you think they mean by that. I think that's a really powerful metaphor. It sounds like they're talking about how when we're younger, we develop this kind of ego as a defense mechanism. It's like an armor that keeps us safe from criticism or fear. But if we don't let it evolve or shed it, it can become this kind of suffocating shell that prevents us from being vulnerable, from growing or from connecting authentically with others.

21:51So it's like what once protected you now keeps you from fully living.

21:58right why do us as little men as little boys sorry uh feel like we need to develop a defense mechanism what is the thing that's not keeping us safe as little boys yeah that's a great question i think a lot of it comes from the way society socializes boys from a young age we're often taught to suppress emotions to be tough to not show signs of vulnerability so in a way that survival instinct kicks in and the ego builds up as a shield. It's a way of keeping us from being too exposed to rejection, failure, or emotional risk when we're small and don't have language yet. Right. So the key piece here is we develop all these things because we actually don't have the language to be able to handle all of the things.

22:41So we develop up this tough nature so that we don't even have to hit it face on or else we'll just be a suppy mess our whole upbringing. Exactly. Yeah. It's like this early survival tactic, right? Without the words or the emotional vocabulary, the ego steps in to do the heavy lifting. And the tricky part is, if we don't unpack that, we can get stuck in this kind of rigid, performative version of ourselves, never really getting to the softer, more open parts. But when we do, that's often where the real growth happens. Hmm. Interesting. Now, for women, this has been interesting because in the essay it was talking about how women uh their ego is tied up in perfectionism and they want to be good enough and they want to be uh good and and well let me pull up what it says and then i'll i'll i'll read it to you um good enough liked enough capable enough

23:48cool so for women the essay was explaining that they want to be good enough liked enough capable enough and ego can be tied up for women in perfectionism can you explain a bit more about how the ego plays a role for women in their life? Yeah, absolutely. I think for a lot of women, the ego can be tied up in this constant drive to prove worse, especially because of societal expectations. So the ego might push them to be flawless, always striving, always being liked or accepted. And perfectionism becomes this kind of armor too, except it's often about external validation. So the ego keeps them striving for a standard they think will make them enough, but it can really trap them in this cycle of never feeling like they measure up.

24:36Why does it make them feel trapped in that cycle? I think it's because perfectionism is kind of a moving target, right? No matter how much they achieve, the bar keeps shifting. So even when they succeed, that sense of enoughness keeps receding. And it's exhausting because they're never fully at rest, always chasing this perceived ideal. And the ego feeds on them, keeping them in a loop of striving and never really feeling fulfilled. Hmm. Right. So if you were to recap and summarize the difference between the ego and how it plays a role in men and the ego and how it plays a role in women, what would you say?

25:15Yeah, absolutely. So for men, a lot of times the ego forms as a kind of armor to protect against vulnerability, keeping them guarded, tough and sometimes disconnected. For women, on the other hand, the ego often ties into perfectionism, this relentless drive to be liked, good enough and capable. So for men, it's often about keeping others out. And for women, it's about measuring up to external standards. But in both cases, the ego, if left unchecked, can keep people from really being seen or growing authentic. See, that's fascinating. I'm going to stop that there.

25:48See, this piece around the ego for women being an external validation piece. so for men it's often about keeping others out and for women it's about measuring up to external standards see that's interesting because there was also a piece that i read around how a man's battle is external it's the ability to provide conquer all of this and a woman's battle is internal it's this ability to be able to not conform to society's norms so that they can actually be themselves. You know, Mark Rolton spoke about this on the podcast, but he's talking about how when a little boy is born, as he's growing up, he's told to go make something of yourself, which there implies that he doesn't already have anything like his sister does, right?

26:44But women are born with intrinsic value. They have the portal of life. They're a woman. You know, what he also said was when the sink ships, they take care of children, they take care of women and men, they're just sacrificial lamb. So if we just look at that lens, and I kind of do resonate with that lens a little bit, if I'm being honest, as a man, we are pressured to perform. And as a woman, we're pressured to conform. because the man we need to perform to make something of ourself and then the women feel pressured to conform because they're getting told all of these societal pressures and all that they need to do they need to be a mom they need to create a business they need to be financially free they need to be independent they need to have time for their kids they need to have time for their husband they need to do all of the dishes like women have all of this societal pressures of all these things that they need to do.

27:45Whereas men, it's like, you just need to make something of yourself and perform. And so there's a confusion because even when I'm reading this, they're saying that the women have an external battle. But I'll even think about the women, I feel like, and please women chime in and contribute in the comments, but I feel like women have an internal battle of being able to listen to themselves and truly do what they want to do as opposed to conforming to all these societal norms and all these ways of how they should be living their life and the timelines that society's placing in their life. But for men, I feel like we have an external pressure.

28:29But maybe if I'm thinking about it, is all of this just ego? It's just stacking up to everyone else. Men have an external pressure of what? Providing? Where? Because if you're providing for a family in a third world country, it's far different to providing for a family in Malibu, California, right? So then the actual external metrics, it's like success is defined on a global scale, but they're different for each town. You can walk down LA and one street has Rolls Royces and the other one has homeless people lighting crack pipes. Do you think their version of success is completely different? Yeah.