#137: Alfie Robertson: The collapse of ambition in Australia

27:49And it was those stories and missions that for me, it's like, that's the most gratifying thing you can do is like, if you have a skill of how to market yourself, why not give that to the people that have the best stories to market? And the job with role is to try and reduce the barrier to entry as low as possible so that anyone who has ideas, anyone who has stories can pick up their phone and reach millions of people around the world. Can you talk to me a bit about the progression of your career over the last couple of years and how it led you to roll? Can you explain a bit more about the steps on the journey and that great Steve Jobs quote about connecting the dots, looking backwards, not forwards, and being able to understand them.

28:32If you look at all of the key dots in that journey from when we were first living together in Bondi and you started posting content, being in fitness, can you share how it progressed all the way to where it is today to give you the confidence of knowing how to build this app that helps so many people and that works so well? Yeah. So I think everything's got to start from acquiring a skill. And for me, the actual first skill I acquired, which was over a decade of refining that skill was getting in shape. And then it was moving to teach other people one-on-one. So that was around the time that I was creating content and seeing people resonate with the message, which I think Instagram's visual platform, I think the decade of training had probably paid off at that point and moving into that one-on-one coaching, both with fitness and then moving and productizing that into a system with Pure Body.

29:25Now, the same thing was happening with content creation sort of unbeknownst me at the time, the vehicle at which I was sharing the acquired skill was now developing a new skill, which was content creation, how to build and monetize a brand, which I did back from September, 2023, when we were living together and grew really, really quickly, like a hundred K and a hundred days and realized that there was a skill there. And I remember when we created on the daily, that first sort of online community with yourself, with Tom, Prime, and Jake. And even then, I wanted to share that skill. That was my contribution to the On The Daily community resources, was like a content creation guide.

30:08And after On The Daily wasn't super successful again, we learned what we maybe didn't want to do or wasn't going to work at the time. It sort of led me down this path of refining that skill a lot further over the whole year and monetizing through Pure Body, through the coaching, and then building what was the next stage, which was the one-on-one coaching. And then eventually Amplify, which was like the systematized version of that, where I could bring on coaches and remove myself a little bit from the business. And the final tier of this productization of selling information around what you do around this one skill was really always going to be software.

30:44That was funny because back in December of 2024, when I was considering building Amplify and what it would be like bringing on some one-on-one clients, I was looking through my posts and seeing a huge number of saves on content that wasn't value-based content. So it wasn't like, oh, save this meal plan or it was completely unrelated, like lifestyle mindset content. And I was sort of wondering why these posts had 30, 40 ,000 saves on them. And I realized other creators were doing exactly what I do. Scroll Instagram, look for inspiration, save a post so they can come back to it and recreate it. So back then I decided to connect the dots and I created these CapCut templates, which was CapCut and Notion sort of smashed together in a very bootstrapped MVP where I took 20 of my top performing posts, five training, five nutrition, five mindset, and five lifestyle.

31:36And I basically presented them in a way where someone could just buy them and they could just have the CapCut templates. Now we had over 6 ,000 users of these templates, which have validated the MVP of, okay, people clearly want this they want done for you ideation and some component of done for you editing so that's what led me down the path of finding calum who's my technical co-founder for role i'm really building this project over 12 months and software is such a pain to build it's not just filming alone video or strapping some things together with existing programs you're really building this from the ground up and you have to paint your vision when you're non-technical like myself, incredibly clear to someone who is technical.

32:17Because often there's this gap between the way that you see the product evolving and the way that they see building it. And you're trying to reduce that gap at every turn as much as humanly possible. So it became this 12-month journey of just going back and forth. And he was in Austin at the time, Kiwi, just met through mutual friends. He was a Kiwi living in Austin, working at startups. And I sort of told him this idea and he'd work on it over the weekends. And eventually I convinced him to come and join full time flew him out to sydney met in person he worked out the office and for about the last four months he's worked pretty much full time on it and now about a month ago we launched about to hit a thousand users today which is awesome so a thousand paid users and what's funny is like we launched on test flight and again like you've known me for a while i am the biggest proponent of like fuck it ship it as like my motto and like some people are gonna hate you for that not hate you but some people will be like oh you should like wait until the product's perfect it's like just get it out there get it out there and get feedback on it so we launched on test flight which basically means apple's developer program which is essentially just meant to be used for test users and we payward using another platform we use vo using another platform and we have test flight so it's like the most frictionful onboarding process you can ever imagine but from trial to paid on a seven-day trial, we're getting a 44 % trial to paid conversion, which by app standards, anything above 40 is like elite.

33:47So sometimes you just have to press go and you've just got to accept that. Yeah. There's some people are like, Oh, it's on what's this test flight. This is annoying, but it's a tiny percentage. And the people that are using it are loving it. And we've had incredible feedback. So we're published now. We'll just go back and forth, probably by the time this airs, we'll be on the App Store officially, which is super exciting. So once it's like properly on the App Store, that's like technically when we've launched launch, but we're heading in the right direction already. Yeah, it's so cool. And for context on people listening, when we started posting all this lifestyle content, we would film our days and then lie on the floor of our apartment and piece together scroll on CapCut, scroll through our camera roll and find all of the things and spend hours every day creating the content and we'd film it and create it.

34:43And, um, and it was, it was a process was a process. And so now what you're doing with roll is it's actually scouring through all of your content in your camera roll and then grabbing the most viral content online and making it for you all done for you, basically. And so it's like roll to reel, right? Like camera roll to reel in minutes or seconds. And I think when you think about the gap it's filling, it just, it touches so home because everyone that's trying to create content, that's the biggest friction point. Even me, I found myself just filming so much stuff. I'm going to do a day in the life.

35:27And then the content just sits there because I don't make it because the friction point of lying on the floor and making all the content was one that I just didn't want to do. And so if anyone's listening to this and they want to try out Roll, I think it's rolltoreal.com forward slash Chris, and you can get a free month on the platform and try it out for yourself. I'll leave it in the description below so you guys can check it out. I just have seen Alfie's journey from start to finish and played a role in it. And it just makes so much sense. If you want to post content, if you want to put your stuff out there and you really want to create something and be more public with what you're filming and what you're documenting in your life, Roll's going to be the number one app for you to try that.

36:09It's going to replace all of your other editing softwares and it'll be a game changer. So go to link in the description and you'll get a free month on the platform so you can try it for yourself. I like it. Thank you for the plug. I would love to, uh, go back to something you said just before. So, uh, you mentioned something happened at the start of the year where your dad got really sick. Um, and he had to go into surgery, open heart surgery. I remember that happening because what a lot of people won't see online is, is you're quite a giving guy and you give to a lot of people around you and you had a New Year's planned with Bree, with family, and you spent all this money on this experience for your family to have, and something happened with your dad, and you pulled the plug on all of it, still said that they could all go without you, and then you flew to New Zealand by yourself.

37:01I remember Bree explaining this to me. Flew to New Zealand by yourself to spend some time with your dad. Talk to me about that moment then and going back into that time and what was going on in your mind back then that made you, A, decide to do all of that. And yeah, just talk to me about your experience and what that taught you and what realizations you had back then. Yeah, I'm incredibly fortunate because my mom's a doctor. So I think whenever you have a doctor in the family, if anyone does have a doctor in the family, they'll know this. There's a level of just like safety and security that comes with that.

37:38Cause I think they bear the brunt of most of the like trauma that comes with the experience of someone close to them getting sick or being unwell or, or, you know, in danger. Um, because everyone just looks to them because they become this like translator between, you know, an actual, you know, doctor who's seeing, you know, the patient being your, your loved one and the doctor who's in your family who becomes the translator of the news. and I think that's incredibly hard for the person so unfortunate mom's also like an incredibly strong woman and for us I think it does add this layer of like security in a way because I just know he's in such capable hands both from the New Zealand medical team but also from like mom as well so I was never like super super worried in a way I think also dad's like a very like positive of upbeat person so even if he wasn't feeling great or if he was anxious or nervous i don't think he'd ever like really show it uh at least to us so yeah it's just i i just felt really lucky because as an example my brother's like an incredibly successful smartest guy i know like incredibly successful software engineer at a very like top-end trading firm and it's like you know making awesome money all of those things but it's like he has to ask for leave and he's like chewed up pretty much all of his leave this year just going back and forth from new zealand to a point now where he can't really do too much travel and it's just that realization that being your own boss although there's you know all the things that come with entrepreneurship you are in such a fortunate position where you can just up and leave and go i'm going to go to new zealand for a week and I'm going to book a one-way and it doesn't really matter when I book a flight coming back.

39:24So I was actually just really fortunate to be like, I'm so happy I'm in this position where I can go and do that. Uh, but yeah, lessons that life short, man, like you don't get long. Um, like dad's like 65 now, I think 65, 66. And it's like crazy to think that he's like, yeah, at like retirement age. Um, you know, my parents are both very young at heart people. You know, they went to Coachella like a couple of years ago. They're, they're fun people, but it is a reminder. It's so short and like you blink and you miss it. And I even feel like that now at 26. And I'm just like, I want to squeeze as much as I possibly can out of life.

40:07And I think everyone should and it's a shame for people not to have that attitude because you will just blink and miss it and like yeah it's awesome and I think that's why like we'll always have a great friendship and get on because I think we have that similar outlook of just like why wouldn't we want it all why wouldn't we want to go and try that why wouldn't we put ourselves in a position to win and I think sharing yeah a little bit of a blink of time with people who see that same perspective is really important. How have you gone on that friendship piece? Like hopping into businesses with friends, bringing your partner, Brie, into business, changing business, being the leader where you're doing what genuinely feels right for you in that moment.

40:56And it just makes sense. But, you know, at least from my experience, what I've found is no matter how much you share it, they're not going to fully understand what you're actually meaning and why you're doing what you're doing and how have you found navigating friendships, team members and, and being a leader and, and, and trying to like maintain all of the friendships and relationships whilst, you know, growing so much and evolving so much. I think you just need to have like a super glass half full outlook on life and outlook on people as well. I think if you always take like a positive view, which is hard to do in the moment, hard to do in the heat of the moment to believe someone has like really good intentions.

41:40Like from their perspective, from their eyes, they truly believe that they're doing the right thing because people don't act out of like malice or evil very often, if not ever. I think as long as you adopt that worldview, that the world is a good place, people do have good intent. It allows you to see things in a light where, yeah, you're just super positive the whole time. And I think if more people could do that, it would be so much easier for people to cooperate at scale. I think we're pretty good as humans to cooperate at scale, but that's probably been the biggest thing. It's just like understanding what drives people, understanding why they do things, what their intent is.

42:17And as long as you come at it with an assuming positive view, normally it ends out pretty well. Yeah. I think it's so important. but I mean what I'm just what my where my mind was going when you were explaining that I've been deep diving into religion over the last like six months just really trying to like learn more and just just see where it goes because especially when you're over here like Christianity is so massive in in America it's crazy it's massive right like the first time I ever spoke about Christianity in a video it got millions of views first I've ever spoken about right But I think probably the reason why it went so well as well is just because I'd spent six months or five months going through it, being so frustrated reading stuff and going like, no, that's so ridiculous.

43:11Having a girlfriend that was so religious, but then seeing how much she lit up and was smiling and happy all the time and how positive she was. And so I just went, there's something in that. So I keep going, keep going. but one of the pieces about religion that I've never been able to resonate with and I struggle with, at least from my understanding of it, is they talk about how the world is evil and we're all sinners. The world's evil. It's a broken world. Maybe they don't use evil, but they always say it's a broken world. But then they're so positive all the time. But then when I'm the most positive, it's when I have the most positive outlook on the world.

43:48and so I've never understood it and this isn't even like a question for you I'm literally just exploring what came to my mind but I've never understood how and maybe if someone's listening to this that is religious can drop a comment down below and like share their thoughts but I've never understood how that's a powerful liberating feeling reading like we're in a broken world everyone's broken like how does that make you a better person and it's always been a fascinating thing to me to like unpack because being over here you see how powerful and how much of an influence and impact like christianity jesus has on the whole well i mean the whole of america um but then there's pieces of it where you just go like how does that add up and it kind of gets a bit frustrating but i do believe that there's this positive nature that if you can adopt the nature of like no one's trying to do you wrong for the most part like people are really making the decisions based on the information they have.

44:44And they are trying to do the right thing for the most part. It is quite a freeing feeling because you don't have that, like, I don't know if the word's cynicism or you don't just have that negative default that you can have if you just think everyone's messed up and evil. Yeah, just like the paranoia. I would say back to your point on religion, I think it's about seeing light in the darkness. And I think the whole concept of religion, at least for Christianity, is around this idea that Jesus died for our sins. So the sins are inevitable because we are human and of fault and Jesus being pure and sinless.

45:21That is the idea that it's like you, he died as the sacrifice, as the forgiveness for our sins. And I think the important part is like the part of the religious text that I like is the idea of like, don't, don't throw stones from a glass house. like the concept of we are all sinners and we judge other people's sins because they are different from our own and because of that we believe they're worse sins or different sins but it's at the end of the day we're all sinners and i think it's taking that and saying despite all of that you have full forgiveness because jesus died for your sins so i think there's some like beauty and solace in that and it's a way to navigate life of being like you're not going to live it perfectly.

46:05And there's going to be trials and tribulation and times where you make mistakes and you do sin. And as long as you repent for those sins and are truly sorry for those sins, there is always room in the heavenly gates for you. And I think that's the most important part. Again, it's not saying someone's going to live the most perfect life, but it's saying at the end of it, as long as they can look back, repent for anything they did wrong and be proud of what they did do then they'll be led in yeah and then making sure that your ego doesn't get in the way there because then when you have your ego playing a role in that decision then that's when you can put yourself on that moral high horse of oh you're sinning i'm perfect or like i know what's best in this ego driven lens and then you can kind of get caught looking down on people when realizing like we're all just, we all just are really trying to navigate it as well.

47:02Yeah. Yeah. Religion's an interesting, like, I don't know. For me, in my chapter of life where I am now, I think it's yet to be opened. I'm sure one day the book will be opened. I'm like very open, but yeah, I think for now there's things that like fill my cup outside of that. I would agree as well. And I guess the piece that keeps drawing me back as well, I've seen you talk about a lot of the Stoic approaches and stuff as well, and I resonate with them a bit. But I look at it and I go, Stoic nature of go through more shit, things get easier. If you go through hard, it's probably more light at the other end because it's a path less walked, all that stuff.

47:50Religion is that too when you're not brought up in it because it's so hard. So I think the thing that's actually drawing me back to it as well is how challenging it is, like how frustrating some stuff is when you deep dive in it, when you're not grown up in it as well. It's just like one of those things where I just go like, there's got to be something there. So I just keep like, I keep looking into it. It's definitely a journey where everyone's on. And the thing is that I also remind myself as well, it's like, I meet so many super successful people that I would consider a role model that I look up to that believe in Jesus and And then others that don't right.

48:23That use it as their moral compass and others that don't. And it does make me. If it's great because it doesn't give me this like narrow approach of like, this is the only way. Cause yeah, I guess, um, Grayson Hart had, I had him on the show and he was talking about how there's only two emotions, love and fear. And he's like, one is true and one is illusion. And he was explaining how like love is true and fear is illusion. And, um, And I think there's a piece around the scripture in the Bible and stuff that's so rooted in love and all that stuff I think is great. But then there's also the pieces that are kind of rooted in fear as well.

49:05And that's the stuff that probably someone looking from the outside in that hasn't been so influenced by it growing up would push them further away. The stuff that like adds power, fear, division, all of that stuff does potentially push someone further away that hasn't like got that relationship already. Yeah. I think it's like a push and pull relationship. I try not to transcend into marketing speak when I speak about religion, but it is like a push and pull of like ways to live your life. And I think there needs to be a pull component, which is the love and the opportunity of what's to come.

49:40And then there's a push component, which is the fear of, you know, if you don't do it, what happens? I think that's hard. It's a hard thing to balance. Yeah. What, if we go back to this nature of Australia and the country you mentioned, it's the place where you see yourself. I can't think of a better place to raise my kids. Do you think it does come down to like seasons of life and what you're trying to achieve and then optimizing for that and the different places around the world serve in different ways? A hundred percent. Yeah. I've sort of split different places. I've been to like pleasure, power, money, and fame.

50:15And like, all can be good, all can be bad. Like, you know, there's places of pleasure. Uh, you could say Malibu could be a place of pleasure. You could say Bali, Ibiza, you know, there's pleasure that can transcend into drugs, alcohol, all the vices. And there's pleasure that can just be genuinely really enjoying your time there. There's like money, fame, power, you know, in every city that you go to and some more dominant than others. And I think Australia has got that beautiful balance of available lifestyle. That's like incredibly clean, uh, incredibly beautiful, but then it's also got at least enough ambition, enough drive that there is still a monetary incentive to, you know, perform and be successful, compared to a place like Brazil with coastline or somewhere like that or Spain where somewhere along the way they got too comfortable on the beach and the lifestyle crept in and then the work sort of balance starts to get too prioritized to the lifestyle.

51:17And I think you need that balance. I've always said Sydney's the most amazing city to live in if you're working like in a full-time job because you've got financial capital like Southern Hemisphere, bar Singapore, but for Australasia, at least in like Australia and New Zealand. And then you also have the beach and you can be, you know, at a beautiful, like world-class beach in five minutes. And I think that's super unique, but if you can access the entire world, then suddenly places like Cape Town, like LA, like Austin, like New York, you know, like Marbella, Bali, like all of these other places that aren't accessible to someone who's working, you know, nine to five suddenly become quite attractive because it's like, oh, I can actually go and live here.

52:02And it doesn't matter that I'm not near like some thriving financial hub. Do you think the people around you are the most important thing that, that you're no matter where you are? Cause I've found whenever I'm traveling, who I'm with as well makes the experience so much more enjoyable. Like you can be with your best mates really wherever. It's true. And it becomes great. I would say though, the world's changing to a point where the people you surround yourself could also include the people that, you know, if you FaceTime someone for an hour every single day, are they not sort of with you influencing your thoughts, the way you speak, the way you see the world?

52:38So your surrounding, I feel now is transcending between just physically with people and also digitally who you surround yourself with. So I think that's a nice like reminder that although you may not always be in the same city as those people that really inspire you, if you catch up with them enough and share enough thought with them, I think they can still heavily influence the way that you're shaped. For high achievers and people that are forward-thinking, really trying to strive and grow and have thought-provoking conversations and level up in their career and business potentially or spiritually, whatever it might be, do you think that certain places will attract certain people and so it's more advantageous to be in certain places uh like alejandro for example he would talk about uh oh this place is so great it's a high barrier to entry and you like reference like the higher barrier to entry will attract a certain place certain people like i spent three weeks in bali a month, two months ago, whatever.

53:41Right. And I, uh, I love Bali. Like Bali's so great. Like I genuinely do. But at the same time, it's still a rich place for broke people. Like it's still a place where you, you, you can't drink the tap water. Like it's still a third world country. There's still aspects of it that result in me going like not too long of a stint there, you know? Um, whereas places that have a bit more of a higher barrier to entry, allow me to meet more people that stimulate my brain, meet more people that, you know, inspire me, that open my mind, that make me feel a bit more inspired, not drained. Um, and then also, I guess the key piece there is community.

54:25And a thing I realized as well about community is something so special about seeing familiar faces when you're not planning it. so like the same barista at your coffee shop or the same person on your afternoon walk like all of those aspects that i would say is powerful about community is familiar familiar faces without planning like not scheduling a meeting but seeing people regularly is pretty cool and that's another thing about bali is it's so transient that people are like coming and going and so you're meeting so many new faces and rather you're not really connecting with the same ones at all all the points.

55:00Um, yeah. Do you, do you feel like what, where do you live in that lens when it comes to travel and settling down in certain places? Yeah. I think the places you pick are really important. I would say, yeah, it's the, it depends what you're after. Again, if your lens is, I'm only inspired by people who've made 50 million, Bali's probably not the place for you. Um, but if that lens shifts, you know, if you wanted to go and meet like the most in touch, like yogi practitioners. I don't know, maybe you've got to go to India instead of Bali. But the example being that you could still go to a developing country and find that set of people, I think it just depends what your prerequisite for finding those people is.

55:42For Alejandro, it makes sense. For context, Alejandro is Barefoot Closer, who was the first technical employee, contractor at Amplify, been closing for me for last year. But I think, again, he comes from Spain. So he probably is looking for places that do have a higher barrier to entry because he's seen what happens when, yeah, do you descend into this like lifestyle dominant nature? And he's seen, you know, he speaks about all the time. He's like, yeah, everyone's just like knocks off work. And, you know, he literally said to me, he said, if you told, yeah, if you, what did he say? Oh yeah. That's what he said.

56:21He's like, if you said you'll get paid a thousand dollars an hour, the Spanish person will work one hour and go surfing for the rest of the day. That's the way you could describe it. Which is fair enough. And Alejandro is like, I'll work 19 hours. You'll like work all 24 hours. Every person I hire below me is going to leave and say to me that I cannot work under you ever. You know, what's interesting though, I think the thing that I'm piecing together here is the financial freedom unlocks ability to travel all around the world and pick your places. So for example, like Stephen Bartlett, he's just got engaged with his partner who is a yoga instructor and I think she has a studio in Bali.

57:03And so he actually spends a bit of time in Bali, writing books, hanging out, like probably like tapping into that spiritual lens, but he's got the biggest podcast in the world and he's main he's got headquarters all around the world massive offices in london and new york and in in la but but he can just go there and not have to worry about staying there too long or not have to worry about how cheap bali is or anything he's just being able to go there for its beauty and what it is and really soak in the culture there as well. And so I guess that the answer is not about rather a certain place to lock down.

57:41It's like if you can create the financial freedom to just do it, and then when you've had enough of it, get up and leave and go to the place that you love and build roots in certain places that you really love, then it's not even a matter of a discussion of where you need to settle down and where you need to live. Because if you're living in Bali and you're only motivated to make enough money to live in Bali, you're never going to leave Bali because you're going to experience a luxury lifestyle there and anywhere else you go based on the resources that you have is going to feel like shit. And so going to Bali with abundance allows you to enjoy it and not get swept up in it.

58:20Yeah, you're not reliant. And I think that's one of the biggest and hardest transitions. Not so much for me because I'm used to it now, but honestly for Brie, because she still lives in this mindset of like, oh, we've got to get a house here or we've got to do this or, oh, we got to like plan where we're going to live. I'm like, no, we don't. Like we genuinely do not have to plan anything. Like, I don't know. And I know that's like lifestyle dependent. Like for me, honestly, I would live on the road for the rest of my life, at least for this portion of my life. I'm like in this mindset of put me, I'm so chill living out my suitcase.

58:52And it's not like, I don't know. Yeah, it's funny. But Brie is very much like, oh, we got to like do this, do this. I'm just like. See where the wind takes us. Well, perhaps what Brie wants is maybe a family. No, I think down the line, for sure. I don't think she wants that yet, but in time, in time. But it's more like that. I feel like she draws comfort from, you know, like home and, yeah, I guess being in one place and all those things, which I think are great. Like community is a big part. Like when I'm in Bondi, the awesome part is I go to the depot. I see the same people every single morning.

59:27They're so lovely. I got to Virtus, got Rawson, got Hamish, got Cal, got like the whole crew there and everyone's so lovely and awesome. And it's like, what a warm, fuzzy feeling to know that you can just step into that, but it's almost in the same vein. I know that will be there when I come back. And I know that, you know, I've been away for whatever it is, two weeks, I'll come back and it'll be the same. And that's the beauty of it as well, that you can step back into these worlds, go experience so much, come back inspired come back with a fresh perspective and then jump straight back where you left off i think i like that about bondi too because if i think about bondi i've left i've been gone for years now and but every time i go back it's this warm fuzzy feeling of how good is this place uh and so it doesn't actually get old i mean look like admittedly when you go on for a certain period of time the staff change at the place you know you're less of a familiar face so you don't get as loud as a hello and a slap up with a handshake of a guy.

1:00:28Like you don't get as much of it, but you still get to like tap in. It's kind of like if you experience enough time in a certain place, it'll always have that special part in your heart that when you go back there, it kind of lights a little spark in you. Yeah. There's like the, yeah, nostalgia. That's the word. Yeah. Yeah. So for you then, you've got, after here, you've got a bit of travel. What's the focus going into this year? Obviously, you've got the app that you're building and that's your main focus from a business standpoint, but you're going to be on the road, you're going to be in suitcases.

1:01:07I hate the idea of suitcase life, to be honest. I like doing little sprints, but last year, it was a bit too much for me where I just went, and maybe look, when I've settled down for a bit too long i want to go again maybe that'll be a case um i think you've got added baggage of uh podcast equipment to lug around and there's more complexity uh but yeah focus will be role and i also think building role like so differently to what i've done in the past it's so funny it's like everything i've built like personal brand like build a personal brand and that's you know there's the a thousand users is so tied to the success of the personal brand and just translating that into, um, into the product.

1:01:48Cause you can build so much trust when you put your brand in front of it, but I'm building this in a way that will scale far beyond me. Like our goal is like, if you're a role user, you don't have to know who I am. And that's like really important for me with this vehicle, particularly building this in a way that one day I'll exit. And I think to exit anything, you have to have the separation from the founder. So my role in this is still doing all of the marketing and product building and still like heavily, heavily involved, but eventually you'll see less of my face as the face of role, which I look forward to as well.

1:02:22And it's this nice transition, which I've always said that by the time I'm 30, I won't have social media. 26 now. So I've got four years, just, I have no intention to raise my kids on social media or be like a super public face on social media. I think it's an awesome, powerful, powerful tool but being in the spotlight never really my intention like long long term so for this and having role it's a way for me to create a vehicle uh that will impact as many lives as i want to will create a lot of wealth for the people for myself and the people around me and also remove myself from being so front and center i have no intention to be famous to stand on stages to yeah really do anything the amount of fame i've had been great and incredibly beneficial but yeah it's about like impact and i believe through role i can impact as many lives as i want to why do you feel like you want to remove yourself from the app outside of the exit and what makes you not want to be public on social media i think it's just again like once you're in the spotlight for a while you want that like anonymity back again you see that with like much more much more famous people than me you know celebrities have got them following around you know there's pros and cons that come with it it's still incredibly gratifying you know when someone comes up to you you know you're having a coffee or whatever it is and they say oh you inspired me to do this or that and they tell you their story and they said when they first saw the content that is awesome you're a hero in one person story, but you're also a villain in someone else's.

1:03:58And I think inevitably just by percentages, the larger you get, the more, yeah, there's a small percentage that disagree with what you do or don't like what you do. And I think it's just an unnecessary privacy risk, I guess, particularly as I have children. If I think of what's my number one priority, it's probably the safety of my children. And not that I feel like I'm not safe or in danger or like not that I feel like I'm in danger, but I think it's just if I was to prioritize my family, me being on social media probably wouldn't be that prioritization. And it's also time consuming. What's that quote?

1:04:37I wish I could reference it around how the thing around like people want, what is it around like the money and being rich and famous? I don't know if you know the quote around like people are, people are people that are people that are extremely wealthy want to become famous and the people that are famous or people strive i'm gonna fully fully butcher don't even know what the reference but there's something around like people that are striving for fame only really want the financial freedom um and but then they they get it and then they kind of wish they didn't have the fame in a sense. It's kind of like, like sometimes you want to walk down to the beach in your underwear because you didn't have a thing.

1:05:22And you're like, it's like, like just like a nature and you don't want someone to take a photo of you or whatever, but there's like aspects of the fame that are so great. But I wonder if the people that are striving towards it actually want the fame, if that's the thing that they want, or is it like the money that you unlock potentially, if you can do it right. And then the question then becomes, if we remove money from the equation, is the fame a net positive for you in your life? And if it isn't, then maybe is there a way to create the wealth without the fame or is the fame going to just help slingshot you so you can actually remove yourself from having to work and be in a rat race for a longer period of time or something?

1:06:05I don't know, just exploring that idea. Yeah. Yeah. I think anyone who like straight up goes like, I want to be really famous. I'm like, that's a huge red flag in my book. Like anyone who's really craving fame. I'm like, you were deprived of something as a child. Yeah. Um, yeah. Just for me personally, it's like never been about that. Like I've never intended to be like, Oh, I just want, I just want to be known by everyone. It's like, uh, nope. I want to be known by like select few people that will buy and love the stuff that I create. And that's good. Yeah. I think when I think about my life, the piece that excites me about building the quote unquote fame is to be able to have more leverage when I do the things I truly want to do.

1:06:49And so like the things that really light me up is like spending hours writing a poem, for example. And it's so funny. Like when we first met, you were like, oh, I saw you as this like poet guy. You used to do it in your car. That was all I saw. Yeah, yeah. Digital identity. But it's funny how it comes back because that's the thing that just lights me up the most. Like if I write something and then I deliver it in a – because I think a lot of part of the poetry is the delivery as well. Like that excites me so much. And so this idea of being able to like write a book filled with poems and then like tour the world and like deliver them in cool ways and speak them on stages and stuff, it's like super exciting for me.

1:07:28Like that, like at this point in my life lights me up so much. And then having fascinating conversations with my show, of course. Uh, but like that ties me to this process a lot more than like building the fame. I think like, like being able to like. But I think there's an element of you that wants to be heard. Yeah. Which I think is tied to fame in a way because fame requires an audience and so does being heard. Because if I said, would you have the same passion to write the poems in the book? If you couldn't share it. I couldn't share it. Yeah. And it probably wouldn't be the case. And so then that then becomes like, and this has been a battle that I've been trying to work on for years around external validation, right?

1:08:07Of like,

1:08:11what is making me overextend or strive for something that I only want because of what other people are going to think of the thing. Yeah. It's like, do you want it or do you want other people to know that you have it? Yeah. Huh. See, it's so fascinating because like, I share so much less of what I'm doing now, but like, is there a reason behind that as well? So that then like, it's so interesting, like the rabbit holes you go down and understanding like why you're doing them because yeah, if I didn't share them to the world, would I do them? Maybe not. and so that's like another whole spiritual journey in itself just to like go and unpack that and figure it out it's just a balance i think it's a balance of impact i think you can get super deep into this stuff and like start questioning everything i think as long as you act in like accordance to the impact you want to make in this world i think everything is sacrificed like dude like galileo said the world was round and like got like completely ostracized by the like church and they said it was like the devil and threw them out, you know, like any great, anyone who's made meaningful impact in this world at the time has been like heavily criticized or if not, at some point in time has been heavily criticized.

1:09:37And I think that's just a consequence or the by-product of standing for something. And whether it's for external validation, whether it's not I think I always draw back to this point of like do you genuinely believe that the thing that you're pushing makes the world a better place like do you genuinely believe based on what your understanding of the world is do you think that the thing that you're pushing leaves the world a better place by you being there and then and then like having that helps give you passion and purpose, I feel. Like having something that's greater beyond you to serve. That's why religion is so popular.

1:10:25Yeah. You need, and also probably really popular among very successful people because I believe as you start to climb the rungs of life from a monetary perspective, you start to answer to less and less people. and at some point you're sort of looking down at this you know top of the hill and going like i don't really answer to anyone and i think that's a really lonely spot for a lot of people because if you don't answer to anyone you have to completely be a hundred percent responsible for all of your actions and for all of your direction and for all of your thoughts and it's a lot harder i think to navigate in a space where there's less of a trodden path uh so i believe like once you sort of start heading to that point and again it's almost maslow's hierarchy once the food water shelter that's been taken out he starts stepping up you get to a point where you're just like okay well what what is the point sort of run out of things and i think some people exhausted in different ways but yeah there is a point in time where it's like got all the cars done all the things done all the experience like what is really left i think at that point, people have to really look inward and that's when they start, you know, finding those callings.

1:11:48Yeah. I think I wrote in my little book, uh, a couple of months ago, I think I was in a bud in a tree house. Um, I was like, I've been on a goose chase just to find out what was already here. I was like, it's like, it's like we go on this massive goose chase and then end up in the spot that we were in before, but obviously like we've exhausted the desires. We've learned a lot more about ourself. We've found out more about what we don't like, what we don't want to do. So then we actually fill our days with things that we truly want to do with the people we truly want to be around. And then hopefully that becomes a more fulfilling life.

1:12:25But I think the key part around that is like, uh, when you chase externally, it's fun, but fleeting it like it's good but then it gets old really quick like i think um i was just with uh thomas who's the founder of the hype house um that was back in the day when all like the the influences and stuff like booming and we're just at his house and he has every he has like three porsche a lamborghini a ferrari like his whole and they're all wrapped in blue and he's got this whole massive house up in California, in LA. And, um, and it's funny. He was like, he's like, dude, I'll be honest. We're eating gelato at night after eating some steaks and we're sitting and we're just chatting and we're looking at some of his cars after at the gelato place.

1:13:14And, and he just goes, he's like, dude, I want to tell you a story. When I got my first, when I got my second Lamborghini at 21 years old, he's like, I picked it up and I drove it home. And I'm not even kidding you. the moment I got out of the car, it got old. He's like, he's like, he's like, and I sat, I was 21 years old making millions of dollars and like best friends, like really good friends with Jake Paul when he was booming up 2017, like all this stuff. He's like, he's like, and I, and I looked at it and literally looked at it and was like, this is already old. And he watched it came around in circles where when he actually looks back at that point in his life, he was, he was with people that sapped the life out of him, that sapped his energy, that really drained him.

1:14:10And he said that now that he's got a great life, a great partner, and he's passionate about things he's doing, he can actually enjoy those things a lot more. But, but during that rat race of like being on the goose chase where it never ends, um, you can't even enjoy the things. And And so it's like all goose chases end in the same spot if they ever end. And the greatest gift like someone that's achieving great things can ever achieve is the feeling of like enough is enough. Because I wonder if when you're constantly striving, if you can ever actually even enjoy what you have. Yeah, but it's also a reminder that those things are actually really fun and cool and enjoyable.

1:14:48But it's just if you put all of your eggs in the basket of that's going to be my validation and that's going to be my everything, there's going to be fleeting. but like, they're still great. Exactly. Yeah. They can still be enjoyed. Like jumping, I don't know, Ferrari or Porsche, whatever car it is, like put the foot down, like that'll feel awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So it's actually just removing your worth from the thing and your identity from the thing. And you'll actually be able to see it for what it is as a toy and as a meek measure of success, but rather a thing that just can make your life. Just a bit of fun.

1:15:23Bit of fun. Yeah. Put a smile on your face a bit more. and then you can actually put more smiles on your face and not feel like you have this pressure tied to you by achieving the things that is supposed to be success. Yeah. I appreciate you coming on the show, dude. What's this, round four? Yeah, I know. We're racking them up. You'd be the most returned. Well, when we started the show, you're actually going to be a part of it and do one a month. And so we're on track. We're always. That's cool. It's been a pleasure, bro. I think each time we do these, It's in a different set, in a different space.

1:15:57I'm glad we got to do this when I wasn't up all night trying to build a set and carry power. And I think it was fascinating just as we wrap this up, like this shit that it took to get that one built was like so chaos. And then we were rushing against time. No ND filters. No ND filters, nothing. I don't even know if you knew what an ND filter was at that point. No, I didn't. Because I literally asked you. I was like, do you have a man, D. And you're like, nope. I didn't. I didn't. And I guess like there's another piece in that, right, of like I didn't know anything. And I'm still figuring it out.

1:16:36But like when I started the show, I had no idea what I was doing. And I just think, as you say, like just get it out there and try and you'll figure out things along the way. And I just look at that. And if I constantly was waiting for the perfect moment, none of this would ever happen. We would not be sitting here in Malibu. We would not be even having this conversation. None of this would have happened. And there's just this thing, and even from helping other podcasters grow, the biggest thing is people just get in their own way. The biggest thing is they're the problem. They get in their own way.

1:17:10They overanalyze everything. Everything has to be perfect. They don't want people to perceive them in the wrong way. They get stage fright. Like anyone that wants to be a podcaster probably likes to talk because they want to be a podcaster. So like you can do it, but then all the stuff comes up, you get in your own way. It's a whole thing, right? And it's just like taking that imperfect action eventually results in a way where you're actually quite confident with what you're doing. And all of a sudden a byproduct is by continuing at that, you start to achieve the things that you actually want.

1:17:39And most of the time it's far greater than what you actually intended and set out to achieve. Amen. man. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you guys for tuning in. Leave us a five-star review on Spotify and I'll leave all of Alfie's deets in the show notes, but, and go check out Roll and yeah, rolltoreal.com forward slash Chris, and you can get a free month to try it out for yourself. It's a game changer. If you wanted to get into content or streamline a lot of your systems or fire your edit up. Boom. Signing out. See you guys. Bye-bye. Athletic Brewing Company crafts award-winning non-alcoholic beers for those who want to be part of every round.

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