A Member of the “Seditious Six” on Reviving the Democratic Party

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2:01I'm sure that was spontaneous too, right? I think it's just a miracle and a sign of statesmanship that they didn't play Phantom of the Opera on repeat or something. I mean, they could have gone full cats. I just want to know, when you cover it, do they give you a few leftovers? Have you been able to try the crispy beef or the duck sounded really intriguing. This will give you a sense of how much things have changed. So it won't shock you to hear that now the press corps is so big and we're kept so far from the action that like we have our own sad buffet while they're eating a big splendid royal buffet.

2:39But in the old days, guys, reporters used to get so close that during the Nixon visit in 1972, one of the reporters afterwards went up and grabbed a set of chopsticks from the head table as a souvenir. The question is, what, you know, does Donald Trump come home with on Air Force One? I bet he's, you know, sticking the ashtrays and the china in his bag as a souvenir. So is that a panda in your carry-on? He has a big case of Xi Jinping envy, it seems to me, Evan. You know, what's a great way to put it? How is it? What's the meter on that so far on this trip? Yeah, there's been the vibes this week, I will tell you, are very distinctly that Donald Trump really kind of wishes he had this gig, not the one in Washington.

3:28So, you know, he's scheduled to get on his plane this afternoon, but who knows? Maybe we'll have a presidential defection. We'd

3:40Welcome to The Political Scene from The New Yorker, a weekly discussion about the big questions in American politics. I'm Susan Glasser, and I'm joined by my colleagues Evan Osnos and Jane Mayer. Hi, Evan, from far-flung Beijing, where you're joining us today. Hi, good morning here, and I don't know what time it is there. It's not morning. Jane, hi. Hey, hey, how are you? Great to see you all.

4:05Let's just start by saying that Democrats are headed into the 2026 midterms with the belief, the well-founded belief, that Donald Trump and his Republican Party are politically vulnerable, to say the least. On the economy, on the war in Iran that seems like it's not ending, on the turbulence that has come to define Republican rule and Donald Trump's second term. You would think at such a moment that Democrats would have to commit something like political malpractice on an epic scale if they were somehow not to win the midterm elections. And yet they're also confronting a set of, let's call them, vulnerabilities of their own.

4:51Parties still searching for its message after the defeat of 2024, still divided over its identity. I'm excited in that context for our guest this week. You will know him as a member of the quote-unquote seditious six, the six Democratic members of Congress who made a video back in November urging U.S. military service members to remember they do not have to follow illegal orders. It infuriated Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth so much. They tried to have our guest and his five fellow members of Congress imprisoned as a result of it. Jason Crow, congressman from Colorado, he is an Army Ranger veteran.

5:34He saw real combat in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He has been a longtime member of both the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. I can't think of anyone better to talk to us not only about the politics of the moment, but also how to translate the growing anxiety over national security and the economy into a coherent winning message for Democrats. Jane, before Congressman Crowe comes in, what do you make of this, you know, national notoriety that's followed these members of Congress for frankly saying the blindingly obvious, which is that, you know, you shouldn't follow illegal orders?

6:12This was all before Trump's war. I mean, if anything, I think it's made them sort of seem heroic for having spoken up and said, you don't need to follow illegal orders. They're just showing, speaking out for what's obvious and what every soldier is trained on. And the fact that Trump and Hegseth went after them for saying that makes them look like they're the ones who are the, you know, violating norms, standards and laws. So it's raised their profiles, you know. And, of course, the charges, they could not get a grand jury to indict these people because grand juries could see through it, too, that it was just sort of vicious politics.

6:49Speaking of vicious politics, Evan, you are speaking to us very heroically from the pre-dawn hours, actually a day ahead of where Jane and I are in Beijing. right now you're reporting from China where President Trump is trying to escape domestic politics by meeting with Xi Jinping at this Beijing summit. From where you sit on the other side of the world, you know, what does it look like when our controversial, divisive president tries to engage in international diplomacy? There is a long tradition, as you know, of presidents occasionally trying to find refuge in foreign policy at moments when they're struggling at home.

7:28But this case seemed so strange, frankly, that even Chinese observers and analysts and government advisors were saying, is he really going to come? I mean, here he is. He's engaged in a war at home and he's going to go all the way over there and meet with us. They were surprised. And right up until the last minute, they weren't entirely sure this was going to happen. So I think there is, even beyond his critics in domestic politics, there are people who say it is a strange time for this president at a moment when Americans are really dealing with a lot to get up and go engage in what has been a summit that is high on pageantry and relatively modest in terms of what the substantive gains are.

8:12So you don't think that Donald Trump is going to come back from China having done anything in terms of deal making to relieve the economic anxiety for voters back home? Well, I think he's certainly going to come back with something. He's surrounded by at least a dozen CEOs. People like Elon Musk and Jensen Huang of NVIDIA and Goldman Sachs and Apple, you go down the line. So there's no question they're going to give him something like a big purchase of Boeing airplanes and soybeans and beef known as the three B's so far is one of the things that they're talking about. But look, that is easy to be dazzled by, particularly in Donald Trump's world where it comes down to this kind of transaction to the deal.

8:57But that does nothing to underline the structural questions which are both central to the U.S.-China relationship around trade and technology, the war in Iran. And I think they're actually the easiest thing to come home with. And there are a lot of people who are saying, well, hold on, you're just going to kind of take your goody bag. What about all of these really serious issues? Are we going to see some progress on those? Well, what a great teeing up the conversation with our guest, Congressman Jason Crow from Colorado. Congressman, how are you doing?

9:30Jason Crow:Hi, Susan. Good. So I wanted to start the conversation today talking about the connection from this Beijing summit that Evan is covering. and, you know, what's happening here in our elections this year, which is all about this question of economic anxiety. So I thought we would start by playing a clip of President Trump from earlier this week just to get your reaction as a politician. To what extent are American financial situations motivating you to make a deal? Not even a little bit. The only thing that matters when I'm talking about Iran, they can't have a nuclear weapon. I don't think about American's financial situation.

10:12I don't think about anybody. I think about one thing. We cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon. That's all. That's the only thing that motivates it. OK, Congressman Crowe, how many Democratic campaign ads this year are going to feature that line about, I don't think about American's financial situation?

10:33Jason Crow:Probably a lot. I mean, why wouldn't they, right? The guy's saying the quiet part out loud now. And this isn't the first time he said this. He said that economic anxieties of Americans are misplaced. They're wrong. He gives the economy an A++++. The man routinely discounts the suffering of the American people. And this isn't about politics. This is about who can actually lead the country and who can actually address the issues that are at the top of people's minds. And, you know, for him to say that, you know, Iran is most important issue is tone deaf at best, right? When we have millions of Americans, upwards of 20 million Americans who might be losing their health care, when we have people that are losing their homes and can't pay their rent and mortgage, for him to say something like that is pretty, pretty stunning.

11:21You're co-leading the recruitment effort, right, for Democratic candidates. Are you hearing people talking about the affordability issue and turning on Trump as someone who they thought could fix the economy and lead us out of this?

11:38Jason Crow:Absolutely. I mean, it's the number one issue. Americans are being squeezed from every angle, right? They can't afford groceries. They're cutting back on their annual vacation if they could even afford to take one in the first instance. The tariffs have devastated American farmers and ranchers. You know, I was just in Wisconsin, in Michigan, not too long ago campaigning in battleground districts. And the soybean farmers up there haven't had orders in months because of the trade war. You know, this president has let the people who voted for him and trusted in him down. But that's not enough, right?

12:13Jason Crow:Just Trump failing and Trump turning his back on the voters who gave him a chance is not going to get us there. We have to have a positive, proactive vision. That's what I'm working with these candidates on. You know, I spent the last year recruiting these next generation of servant leaders around the country. I'm now mentoring them, helping to build campaigns, and we're going to be relentlessly focused on local issues. Help me understand something, if you can, about the perception of the parties, Congressman. I mean, it's what you've just described and what we've talked about on the show is a real level of distress out there among voters, particularly among the working class.

12:52And yet we see in data that even though Donald Trump's handling of the economy is deteriorating as an ingredient of his image, that the Republicans are still in some ways known as now the party of the working class and Democrats are associated with a kind of wealthy elite. Despite the fact that Trump surrounds himself with CEOs and billionaires at every turn. Why is this? Help us understand how this came to be in your mind. And what do you think Democrats need to do to reach those voters?

13:21Jason Crow:Yeah, well, you know, I'm a working class guy. I was raised in a working class family. I started working when I was 15 in minimum wage jobs and fast food and then worked my way through college in construction as a construction laborer, then went into the army. Most of my life has been around working class folks. Most of my family actually are Trump supporters and Trump voters from the conservative upper Midwest. And, you know, first of all, I saw all this coming in 2016. I actually predicted Donald Trump winning because I saw the trend happening. I saw how Democrats were pulling back and losing rural Americans and working-class Americans.

13:56Jason Crow:And I'll be honest, I don't blame Donald Trump for getting elected twice, right? But I do put a lot of blame as a proud Democrat on the Democratic Party for allowing that to happen. You know, how have we lost 90 percent of American counties when we actually do have policies that will deliver for working class Americans. So here's where we're at. Number one, we need to be honest with people that we have fallen short. Unless we come out and very explicitly say, hey, we've fallen short. We stopped showing up in vast swaths of this country. We haven't delivered for you. We won't have legitimacy, right?

14:31Jason Crow:People need to hear us say that. And I've been saying that and I've been encouraging my candidates to say that. The second is we just can't come right out of the gate and ask people support again. We have to show some empathy and recognize that people are suffering. And a lot of folks voted for Donald Trump because they're frustrated, they're angry, they were suffering, and they wanted change. So coming out and saying, you know, I am sorry, this did not work out. I don't want you to suffer anymore. And this president is compounding that. What I want to do is figure out how we can move forward together.

15:04Jason Crow:And then the third is we got to go back to places we haven't made our case for a very long time. Democrats over-targeted in our elections and our campaigns. We stopped showing up in vast swaths of the country. And how can we expect people to know what we stand for if we literally haven't been making the case and talking to them for cycles? Right. So we have years of work to do now. And this is going to take longer than between now and November to reintroduce ourselves to a lot of Americans and to re-earn their trust. So tell us a little bit more about what the map looks like. We're still relatively early in the primary season.

15:36But, of course, if you read the national media, you'll get a sense that there's sort of a broad conflict taking place between the kind of, I think David Ignatius called you the angry middle of the party. And, you know, I'm not that angry. Exactly. The angrier left, perhaps. But, you know, Republicans, they know that Donald Trump is unpopular. They know that their policies are unpopular. Their plan is to run scorched earth against Democrats and say, you're all crazy leftist socialists. You know, it's Mom Donnie's party and you're all just living in it. So tell us, give us a little bit of a report on, you know, from the front line of that that Democratic fissure.

16:16You know, do you see leftist candidates winning in key primaries? How much are Republicans going to be able to succeed in defining you as a bunch of extremist left culture warriors?

16:26Jason Crow:Well, I flipped a seat in 2018. I'm actually the first Democrat to ever hold my seat in Congress. It had been since its inception, a Republican held seat. So and then I had been I held it as a frontliner in 2020. So I know something about flipping seats and keeping them. And what I can tell you is it's it's hyper local. Our Democrats, the people that we've recruited are incredible folks. Right. They have strong grounding in their communities. They largely don't have political backgrounds. They're people that have served in uniform, you know, retired law enforcement, retired military doctors, nurses, small business owners, people that are raising young families in their community.

17:04Jason Crow:They look like the communities they serve. They have done things in their communities outside of politics. And, you know, I tell these folks that you're basically running your campaign like you're running for mayor of your district. You know, ignore Fox News, ignore the cable news networks, ignore the algorithms. You can't control that anyhow. Right. So relentlessly focus on, you know, every every water project that's not being funded in your district. The fact that your ranchers now don't have disease monitoring anymore because we pulled out of the WHO, the fact that, you know, lead in the drinking water of your local schools isn't being remediated because the federal grants have been cut.

17:42Jason Crow:hyper-local, because you are going to win by focusing on that district. You're not going to win or lose because you're a Democrat or a Republican in this cycle. You have to be independent and you have to show that. So that's different, though. Running in midterms in a cycle like that is that very local, very independent strand of campaigning. That's different from the larger project that the Democratic Party has to embark on, and that is rebranding ourselves, making the reforms that we have to make at a national scale, which is going to be the task between now and 2028. But can you really escape the sort of nationalization of issues that are culture war issues that seem to be dividing people so sharply along partisan lines?

18:28I'm sort of looking out across the country and maybe I'm looking at the wrong things, but you see in places like Michigan that there are primaries where people are, there are three candidates running against each other in the primary that seem to be dividing along the sort of the left that's talking about Palestinians and Israel. And you've got the sort of the center of the party that's aligned with Schumer. And then you've got another candidate trying to find space in between. And it seems that national and international issues are playing into there. it's hard to talk locally, isn't it?

19:05Jason Crow:Yeah, Jane, it's never been harder. Political leadership, and certainly in my lifetime, has never been harder. And you paint this picture of all of those forces that are bearing on us. And I would add to that redistricting, which is polarizing even more and going to leave fewer and fewer areas of purple districts and kind of middle ground for people to come together. It is a very dire situation. I don't mean to, I'm not going to be Pollyannish about this at all, right? We are facing a deep structural threat to our democracy with the influence of technology and AI is going to supercharge that. You know, we as a democracy are not ready for the impact of AI and generative AI and our politics.

19:45Jason Crow:And you talk to young folks and they don't even know what the truth is anymore, right? Because they get inundated with things, you know, half of it is fake and made up. So it is a challenge. It's a unbelievable leadership challenge, but we have to figure that out. Giving up is not an option for me, right? I'm not going to just lay down and concede defeat and say, well, you know, the structural challenges are just too much to overcome because if we do that, we're lost, right? And there's no way forward. I don't believe that's true. I think there is a way forward and I think it's going to take really good leadership that knows how to build coalitions and knows how to connect with folks locally.

20:20Jason Crow:And if we can build confidence, again, by winning and having really good people running for office, and it's tough recruiting good people right now, let me tell you, right? Sitting in the living rooms and across bar stools from folks and telling them to quit their job and tap into their savings and spend half their time away from their family and be subjected to death threats and have people following you everywhere you go and yell and scream at you is a hard case to make. But I can tell you that people are stepping up. And that's what gives me hope. People are, despite all of that, are stepping up in droves at every local, every level of government, state, federal, local, to run.

21:00A question about leadership within the party. Jane mentioned Chuck Schumer. I'm curious, how durable is Senator Schumer as the party's leader in that body? Do you think the generational and the ideological pressures that have been building inside the party are becoming a real challenge for him.

21:20Jason Crow:Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt about that. And that's just not my opinion. I mean, just look around, right? There is a very real contest right now for the future of all parties, but the Democratic Party included. And I'm somebody that believes that we do need the next generation of leadership to stand up. I do think we need a refresh to some degree. And that's not ageist. I'm not being ageist, by the way, because there are incredible people, you know, who are in their 60s, 70s, who are still kicking ass, excuse my language, are doing great work, right? So it's about capacity and vigor and energy.

21:55Jason Crow:And people of all ages can have that. But I also know I'm under no delusion. Political power is never given away. It's rarely ever passed to you. You have to take it. And you take it by finding tough fighters, street fighters who are willing to weigh into tough races and run against the odds and earn it. So just to clarify, you guys are up against a street fighter in Donald Trump who's been underestimated at Democrats' peril again and again and again. You know, it seems like for these candidates you're recruiting, you're saying, you know, stick local, talk about how the evisceration of the federal government is playing out at your district level.

22:34That all makes sense to a certain extent, but where do you stand on Trump as an existential threat? Because how can that not figure in this year's midterm elections? Isn't that one of the main reasons that Democrats are going to want to come out and vote this fall for Democratic candidates?

22:51Jason Crow:Yeah, I mean, it's very clear to me that he is an existential threat. He is assaulting every element of our democracy. So yeah, the man poses a threat to almost every element of this country that I know and love. And we should be willing to tackle corruption. You're just have to do it the right way, right? Corruption isn't just about some abstract thing that's happening that's over there in D.C. Corruption, what it really is, is theft from my constituents. It's them stealing out of the pockets of Americans, right? So they can't afford health care. They can't afford their rent and mortgages. And the money that should be in their pockets to pay their mortgage and their rent and to buy their groceries is going to repaint the reflecting pool.