Ari Emanuel on Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and Mixing Business with Politics

0:25David Remnick. Early each week, we bring you a conversation from our episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The Art of the Deal is the title, of course, of a famous book by Donald Trump. But if you really want to know how deals are done, particularly in Hollywood, study the career of Ari Emanuel. Emanuel runs WME, one of the biggest talent agencies in the industry, and you may remember him, or the character based on him, in the HBO series Entourage, the abrasive, hot-tempered, profaned Hollywood operator called Ari Gold.

1:15Emanuel has overseen the careers of Oprah Winfrey, Taylor Swift, Meghan Markle, Martin Scorsese, and The Rock. His entertainment machine now includes World Wrestling Entertainment and UFC Fighting League, theaters on Broadway and in London, a ticketing company and much more. That global empire has put him very close to some of the most powerful people in the world, including Donald Trump and Elon Musk. In a new memoir, Ari Emanuel describes the rage that fuels him, and he claims to make 300 phone calls every single day. We spoke this past week. Let's talk about what an agent does. Nobody outside of your little world and maybe my little world knows they can name a single agent, until you maybe.

2:06And the first time they could name an agent was when they were watching the HBO show Entourage. And there was this guy, Ari Gold, who was filled with not just spielkes, I would say, which, you know, ants in his pants, but also an ongoing rage. You know what other class I took at Harvard? Business ethics. I don't steal other people's clients. But in your case, I'm going to make an exception. I'm going to take everyone, your B-level sitcom stars, your reality TV writers. When I'm done with you, you're going to be repping sideshow freaks. That was clearly based on you. And I want to know your relationship to Ari Gold.

2:49Well, first of all, at the time, I never watched the show. You say this in the book. It's very hard for me to believe. No, I think I watched the first episode, gave me complete anxiety. And then it came on on Sunday nights. The storylines at times were way too close because it's the business. And they got that down. I had not met Jeremy Piven. Who's playing Arigold. Who's playing Arigold. And he was, first of all, incredibly funny. Had the one-liners. I don't know how he did it. But he captured all my attributes at the time that were good and bad and ugly. How would you describe this? Fast talking, trying to get to some end, representing your clients, but also having a lot of conflicts.

3:46And not only with the client situation, but emotionally himself. and they're just funny. So you didn't go through a moment of, oh my God, I'm seeing myself portrayed on television. I did. I like myself. I don't like myself. Yeah, good, bad, and ugly. All right. So this book that you've written together with a ghostwriter, J.R. Moringer, who worked with Prince Harry and Andre Agassi, he's the best at this in the business. We'll talk about how you work together with a ghostwriter. But there's a lot of rage in this book. And at the beginning, you write this in conjunction with JR. Every story starts with rage.

4:26And every story, one way or another, ends up there. And you also write, rage is both catalyst and metric of desire. Now, Ari, most people talk about rage as a bad thing. You know, are you saying it's a good thing or it's a characteristic thing of your being? I don't know. First of all, JR. Or is it a weapon that you deploy professionally? JR is an incredible human being. Made the process. As a nurse, I was really easy. And I think one of the great human beings. My life has been a situation where I had the smart brother, Ezekiel Emanuel. I had the other smart brother. Who's in medicine. Right. My other brother who's in politics, Rahm Emanuel.

5:07And then I was the third. And I had dyslexia, ADHD. and thank God for my mother that she said, I don't care what all these people are saying. You're going, you're reading, you're going to college, you're going to be successful. And when you're in that situation and you're trying to find an identity amongst incredible brothers, incredible human beings, and people are thinking that you're not smart, and I didn't think I wasn't smart. I just, my brain functioned in a different way. Yeah. You have a chip on your shoulder. Was your father as forgiving as your mother? My father was, he was a tough man, a wonderful, beautiful man.

5:53And he was dyslexic. And, you know, he graduated number two in medical school and learned French through English that he learned when he went to Lausanne, Switzerland. He was an incredible human being. So when you're in that, and I had finally picked the craft that I wanted to do when that aha moment happened for me. Which is? Being an agent. No, but how did that happen? A friend of mine, Michael Mendelsohn at the time, was working in the mailroom at William Morris in New York. And I had moved back from Europe. My father let me go to Europe. And he said to me, I said, what are you doing? He goes, oh, I'm in the mailroom of William Morris.

6:29And I go, what the fuck is William Morris? The mythical mailroom is real. It's real. And, you know, being from the Midwest, not understanding how the business worked, he explained it to me. And I said, you know, I think I would like that. Right. Went to work for this guy, Robbie Lance, who had bought this company, the due agency that I was working at. Right. And I understood it. And then I went into the mailroom of CAA. And I didn't have a plan B. I had plan A. Make it. Give me an example of how your rage showed itself professionally. You want people to fear you. Well, we go through the beginning part of my business, and when things weren't going my way or I had a point of view, I didn't mind announcing that this is my point of view.

7:15Most people, I think, don't take agency, don't announce it. And when somebody – in my household, when you had a point of view, you had to defend. Right. Some people think that is very aggressive. I think that's normal. Right. You describe, and your brothers have described in interviews elsewhere, the kitchen table. Yeah. It sounds like the most argumentative kitchen table I've ever heard of. And also loving. Well, pretty Darwinian, though. Yeah. There's a tremendous amount of screaming and yelling in this book and phone calls. There are a lot of phone calls in this book because that's the lifeblood.

7:51That's how agents work. That's how it's done, and the occasional lunch. looking back on it because i think the portrayal here is here is what i used to be here is where my struggles and now i'm a much more contained guy i got the success that i was always looking for that's that's contained ish contained ish but when it was uncontained was rage something that was within you and you could control and you deploy no or it just came pouring out of you You know, when we started Endeavor, which was the agency after we left ICM, we couldn't compete financially because there was four big agencies, United Talent, ICM, William Morris, and CAA.

8:32So we couldn't compete on price. They didn't want a newcomer. We had to compete on ideas, aggressiveness, and hard work. And when somebody tried to bully us and say, no, I was okay. like okay I guess we're gonna tussle and I'm not just gonna give in just because you're the big guy and I'm supposed to give in to you and that happened a lot and I was one of the guys when you were going too far in these tussles what were you doing well there's you know screaming at Harvey Weinstein yeah but that's easy everybody's proud of having screamed at Harvey Weinstein but at the time, he was the man. I mean, this guy had more Oscars.

9:18He had, take everything that's happened. That guy had the greatest taste of all time and how to pick movies. I mean, there was other things very reprehensible, but in the movie business, he was - Did you know he was reprehensible at the time? No, no, but I didn't know. I had no idea. Did you know that that kind of behavior was rife in Hollywood? No, I was trying to make a company. So I was just moving forward, trying to stay in my own lane and figure out how to... So the idea that everybody in Hollywood knew what was going on at this place, at this hotel and that hotel is... We had nothing. We weren't big enough to know nothing.

9:58You know, we were just trying to make it. And so there's other people, which I state, definitely knew, in my opinion. Right? Who? The other agency. Mm-hmm. So all the agencies other than you? No, no, no. One other agency who represented him at the time. Who was that? CA. Yeah. You know, and they were, remember, Mike Ovis and Rahm Meyer had just left. They were representing him. And there was a couple lawsuits about it now from Julie Armand and other people. So we'll see what happens. How do you coexist? Ezekiel's one thing, but Rahm is another. Rahm is at the center of the Clinton administration, the Obama administration.

10:36He's running for president now, it seems. You're going to have to ask my brother. I did. He's certainly trying to sort it out. He hasn't announced that. How do you navigate that political figure in your family? And I have to say, his presence is pretty slight in this book, and there's not a lot of compliments thrown his way. That was my reading of it, Ari. Okay. Here's what I would say to you about my brother. First of all, I don't think you have to worry about the Emmanuel boys loving each other and defending each other. Will you get behind him if he decides ultimately to run for president? I'm a ride-or-die guy.

11:14And for sure, I'm a ride-or-die guy with my friends. And nobody has to question any Emmanuel brother that we will be side-by-side, and I will be doing everything I can because I think there's no question my brother has the best experience, toughest guy out there, to handle the challenges this country needs into the future. Are you a billionaire now? I don't think about that. I'm asking you. I've done very, very well for myself. So how do you feel about the billionaire tax, the wealth tax that's being proposed in California that's on the ballot? You for it or against it? It's stupid. Why? Because I don't think it achieves what you want to achieve.

11:52And I think it's driving economics out of the state. Would you move out of California if it passed? I don't think it's legal to have it, so I'm not worried about that. Would you move out of California if it passed? I haven't thought about that yet. Wait a minute. You haven't thought about whether you're a billionaire or not. I haven't moved yet. And I bought another house right next to my house. Do you approve of what Sergey Brin has done and any number of other people in California, which is move the hell out of the state? I have not moved out of the state. I love California. I love Los Angeles.

12:22I love the entertainment business. Okay. And I want it to be healthy. Now, you came out. And that's not the way to make California, Los Angeles economically viable. You wrote an op-ed saying that the antitrust suit involving Paramount was a bad thing. Right. We're sitting here right after that deal has gone through. That seems like a sealed deal. Is the Paramount merger good for Hollywood? No, it's not good. It's great. Why? When I started in the business, the network business, the cable business, was just starting and then it became great. And that was great. my thesis for Endeavor was there's going to be infinite distribution and that's good for, and, you know, creators.

13:09Now the business has evolved and it's about streaming. And in that ecosystem, not that the television business and the cable business is going away, it's going to diminish. And for that business, I think you need four over 200 million sub companies. Four big companies. Four big companies. Right, who have a scale. Which then creates competition, and my job is to get the best price for my talent. And so if you have only kind of two, you don't get that scale, you don't get that leverage that you need. And you have a gentleman in David Ellison who loves the movie and television business, committed to it, going to spend more than anybody, $30 billion to promote movies and television, et cetera.

13:59And I think that's a good thing because it gives competition to Netflix, which is an incredible company, gives competition to Amazon, incredible company, and gives competition to a growing Disney. And once you have four, we have a proper ecosystem that enables my creative clients and the rest to leverage it to get their project made. David's committed to 30 movies in the theater business. David Ellison, yeah. Yeah, and 170 series. And we've had six bad years in Hollywood. We had the COVID years, and then we had a strike with the Writers Guild. We're now, as we see at the box office, just coming out of it.

14:40And why would we restrict somebody who says, and all the surrounding people, the theater chains, the cable operators, this is a good thing, we want it. Part of the deal, though, involves CNN. It is about CNN. And it's not about any of the other stuff. Are you not worried about CNN and CBS News? No. Mark Thompson's an incredible executive. I think Barry West is a good steward. Here's what I'd say to you. I've watched the last two Sundays of 60 Minutes. Thought it was pretty good. You're okay with her. Yeah. And I think, as I have said in my op-eds, guess what? Put an editorial board there. I'm a Democrat.

15:17I'm okay with that check. And Mark Thompson is an incredible executive, very forceful, has, I think, the perfect middle ground and put the editorial board together. Right. And let's move on. We have a lot of issues in this country. AI, Iran, inflation, deficit. I mean, there's a lot going on. And rightfully, we're talking about free press, but there's a lot of other issues. And this paramount is not going to be an issue about the free press because there's going to be— I don't know if you're right. I hope you're right. I think I'm right. And we'll come back and discuss it. And I would just say to you, you have Jon Stewart.

15:59I don't know that—you think Jon Stewart will stay there? What I'm saying is Jon Stewart has been given the ability to have the conversation that he's having. As of last night, it was incredible. So David has not restricted that. So I think it's going to be fine.

16:18I'm speaking with the talent executive, Ari Emanuel, whose new book is called Roll the Calls. We'll continue in just a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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18:18This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I've been speaking with Ari Emanuel. He's one of the most powerful people in entertainment. Emanuel runs WME, which was formed from the merger of William Morris and his own talent agency, Endeavor. He also controls TKO Group and many other businesses operating globally. Emanuel has also been a prominent Democratic donor, and he's outspoken on a number of issues, including some pretty blunt criticism of Benjamin Netanyahu. But as a businessman, he maintains relationships across the political spectrum. We'll continue our conversation now.

18:58Your politics, as I've always understood them over a long period of time, were pretty centered Democrat, Clintonian, Obey me, and that kind of thing. But your job sometimes is going to put you in a spot. Right. I assume. As of the end of 2025, Hassan Piker, the now well-known streamer, was represented by, I think, WME. Are you troubled by him one way or another? it's like what i said to people that fight with me when i talk to the right the republicans and and have have relations with republicans and i get in these arguments about kids that are trying to stop lecturers that they don't agree with coming to schools i don't want to live in an echo chamber i don't want to live in a cult i want to live not in a cult but in a society and in a society you have to have conversations and they're not easy conversations and they're not always with people that you agree with.

20:00They're a lot of times with people you don't. So he can have his opinion. As long as we're having a conversation and not a screaming match, I'm okay with it. I don't agree with him on so many levels. What he said about 9-11 in the United States, what he said about Jews, I do not agree. I'm willing, like at my dinner table with my parents, to get into the scuffle. Well, would that extend to Robert Kraft? So Robert Kraft decided he could not countenance having Macklemore, the rapper, who had, in the midst of his performance, spoken out for Free Palestine. And he was kicked off Ed Sheeran's tour and put Ed Sheeran in a position you know the whole story.

20:46What do you think of Robert Kraft's actions there? If you're for that kind of free speech is what I'm hearing, did Robert Kraft behave improperly in your view? No. Here's what – Robert Kraft owns that stadium, right? And people like trying to piece it apart like – Nobody doubts his legal ability to do it. Do you think it was the right thing to do? He has every right to do what he wants to do. You can make any decision you want as it relates to your stadium. That's Bob Kraft's decision and I support Bob Kraft and I don't think that has anything to do with the First Amendment. That has to do with Bobcraft.

21:19Now, you were involved at one point in business with Mohammed bin Salman. Right. Right? The de facto leader of Saudi Arabia. And the Saudi investors took a pretty big stake in Endeavor at that time, something like$400 million. And after Jamal Khashoggi, the journalist, was murdered in 2018, he tried to return that money. How did that – I want to know how that went down. and also what do you think of the rush and not only Hollywood investors but investors all over the United States but a lot in Hollywood. Now MBS seems the place to go. The Emirates, MBS and so on. I think there's a lot of investment coming out of the region.

22:05Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia. At the time didn't want them on our cap table. We had been doing business with them is still at that time representing on rights. We have an incredible relationship with them now. We do things like with the WWATKO. You know, it's a global business. I think he's done incredible work on women's rights there, on not supporting extremists in the Muslim community. He has made a lot of progress. And there's a lot of gray. There's a lot of gray in the world. And I'm a global company. We have a lot of business. So what I'm asking is, if MBS was awful in 2018 after the murder of Khashoggi, at what point did it become okay?

22:52You know, I also have seen him change in what he's done. I have changed. Have you heard him be contrite about Khashoggi? I have not heard him be contrite, but I have seen what he's done as it relates to extreme. I mean, I'm not suggesting the world is pure. It's not. Not even remotely. Not even remotely. And he has made strides in areas that I think are important. So there's shades of gray and I'm willing to live in the shades of gray. I'm not willing. Right. And I have changed to not live in the shades of gray. How do you mean? I mean, before, sometimes it was black and white for me. And, you know, I'm older now and I think people change.

23:28But is that because money talks? No, no. I just told you why I thought things have changed. I was surprised that you befriended, and I don't know what your relationship is now, with Elon Musk, who at one point, and talk about people changing, this was a guy whose general image out in the world was of tremendous innovation. But I would also argue that what happened during the Doge period and his funding of Trump and now his funding of the midterm elections and most of all, the unbelievably heartless action about our global health program in which people estimate that as many as 700 ,000 people are going to die as the result of what happened to our global health program.

24:17And there's no backsies to that. That's going to happen. Are you sure that's going to happen? Do we have all the facts? We absolutely do. I haven't seen those. And the reporting reveals that. I have not seen that. What is it? Why do you? Tell me about your relationship with Elon Musk and why he's still kosher to you. Well, I think he's moved humanity forward in incredible ways. I think he's one of the greatest innovators of our time. I think what he has done cutting off the Russians and Starlink has been important for that war. There has been a ledger of pros and cons. I have not seen the facts that you talk about.

24:55You didn't think Doge did a tremendous amount of damage? I have not seen all the facts. Here's what I do think. Doge pointed to issues that I thought, as I said to you, there's a numerator and a denominator. You're talking about waste. Yeah, waste. Would I have gone about it with a chainsaw? I think when you talk to Elon and I have about that, he would admit that was not great. his politics is his politics. He and I discuss his politics. I disagree with him on a lot of his issues. As it relates to this specific issue, I don't have the facts. I just don't. Now, after this, I'll have a conversation with my brother, Zeke.

25:32I'll have a conversation with my brother, Ram, and say, hey, is this true or not true? I'm not sure it's true. I worry about your Elon relationship. I think it's fantastic. And I'm happy that he and I have a relationship. He and I argue. He and I agree on certain things. That's a healthy relationship. But he's not healthy. You're wrong. Tell me why. Because I think the man is an incredible human being. I think what he's done for society on a net positive basis. And I can disagree. Have you listened to him on Joe Rogan go on about conspiracy theories? It's frightening. An information technology weapon to propagate what is essentially a mind virus to the rest of Earth.

26:14and the outcome of that mind virus is very clear if you walk around the streets of downtown San Francisco. It is the end of civilization. I can argue with him because I disagree with a lot of conspiracy, but it's okay to disagree with people. Just don't be disagreeable. Yeah, okay, but that goes for when you're arguing over tax policy or something, the yawning gap. I disagree with you on the yawning gap. So you and I disagree that there's a yawning gap. And we're discussing it. Yeah. That's fine. And I don't think you should just put a... What's the breaking point? I promise you, if you sat down with him...

26:50Right. You would find him, one, intriguing, two, unbelievable, and you would have a decent and appropriate exchange of thoughts. And I think you would move him, and he would move you. You think that I would move him? I do. And I think he would move you, too. Have you ever moved him? Yeah. On what? It doesn't matter. It's a personal relationship, but I have moved him on things that he has said that I have disagreed with. And that's what you want. Do you want to live in a cult where you just say it's this way and not having the conversation? That's not a question of a cult. Of course it is. It's your statement like you can't move the man.