In short
Congress’s dysfunction and shrinking legislative power in an “imperial presidency” era, including why it stopped passing major legislation, how leadership centralized power, and whether reforms are possible.
Guests
Susan Glasser (host), Evan Osnos, Jane Mayer (New Yorker). Carl Hulse, Chief Washington Correspondent for The New York Times (covered Congress since 1990; “Dean of the Hill Press Corps”).
Guest backgrounds
Hulse is a long-time Capitol Hill reporter (previously at Roll Call; covered Congress through Reagan, Gingrich, and Trump eras). Mayer and Osnos are New Yorker political journalists; Mayer previously worked on press-freedom reporting.
Key claims
Congress has ceded constitutional powers (tariffs, war powers, “power of the purse”) to the executive; once power is surrendered, it rarely returns. Dysfunction is driven by gerrymandering, primary extremes, centralized leadership (post–Newt Gingrich), reduced committee writing, and fear of confronting Trump. Campaign finance and outside money further distort incentives.
Notable examples
13 appropriations bills met by Sept. 30 only as recently as fiscal year 1997; Senate “stops” and leaves early (“Senate Friday”); Gingrich’s 1994 “Contract with America” and C-SPAN strategy; reconciliation used to bypass filibuster; SAVE Act vs Senate filibuster rules.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Shrinking Legislative Power
0:05 to 0:37
Discussion on Congress's decline in functionality and legislative power.
“But no matter who wins, we'll still be living with a fracture down the middle of our country.”
The Shrinking Legislative Power
0:38 to 1:30
Discussion on Congress's decline in functionality and legislative power.
“and that means I want a wardrobe full of easy, comfortable pieces I can reach for over and over and look good doing it.”
The Shrinking Legislative Power
4:58 to 6:31
Discussion on Congress's decline in functionality and legislative power.
“I'm Susan Glasser, and I'm joined today by my colleagues, Evan Osnos and Jane Mayer.”
Historical Context of Congress's Functionality
6:31 to 9:38
Examining the historical changes in Congress's role and functionality.
“He governs as president as if there is no legislative branch.”
The Present State of Congress
9:38 to 14:01
Carl Hulse discusses the current challenges and changes facing Congress.
“The incredible disappearing legislative branch.”
The Evolution of Congressional Functionality
14:01 to 19:11
Explore how Congress has shifted from a functioning body to a focus on social media and celebrity.
“So, Carl, you know, I have questions about things like courage, political courage, but also there is a substantial chunk of Americans who have been born and raised in a period when Congress doesn't work.”
Gingrich's Impact on Congressional Dynamics
19:12 to 25:24
Discuss the changes brought by Newt Gingrich and how they reshape today's Congress.
“I mean, this, frankly, without putting too fine a point out, this gets to who is running for Congress.”
Gingrich's Impact on Congressional Dynamics
25:25 to 26:53
Discuss the changes brought by Newt Gingrich and how they reshape today's Congress.
“If you've been enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and a review on the podcast platform of your choice.”
Gingrich's Impact on Congressional Dynamics
27:00 to 28:31
Discuss the changes brought by Newt Gingrich and how they reshape today's Congress.
“This week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, a Democrat and a Republican in Congress on how the immigration crackdown is changing America.”
Gingrich's Impact on Congressional Dynamics
28:36 to 28:46
Discuss the changes brought by Newt Gingrich and how they reshape today's Congress.
Show all 18 chapters
Congress in the Age of Trump
28:46 to 32:27
An exploration of how Trump's influence shapes congressional power dynamics.
“Okay, so Carl, let's talk about Congress right now in the age of Trump.”
The Challenges Facing Congress
32:27 to 40:10
Discussing the issues Congress faces with power dynamics and public sentiment.
“is a form of taxation, as we know, despite what Trump says, and also on the war powers, which are the two main powers that they've got under the Constitution?”
Possible Reforms for Congress
40:10 to 42:08
Ideas and challenges regarding potential reforms in Congress to improve its function.
“I mean, crypto is a new emerging special interest in these congressional races.”
Public Sentiment and Financial Power in Congress
42:08 to 43:21
Discussion about public discontent regarding money in politics and its effects on Congress.
“I don't know why it couldn't again, but I'm not seeing it right now.”
Public Sentiment and Financial Power in Congress
43:23 to 44:03
Discussion about public discontent regarding money in politics and its effects on Congress.
“presidency to have a legislative branch?”
The Current State of Congress and Its Challenges
44:08 to 46:46
Analyzing the dysfunction in Congress and the influence of campaign finance on legislative effectiveness.
“On Wired's Uncanny Valley, we take that curiosity even further.”
Emotional Impulses in Politics
46:46 to 50:35
Exploring how fear and cynicism shape political behavior and perceptions about Congress.
“And look, there's a risk in always how the halcyon days you are.”
Impact of Trump's Presidency on Congress
50:35 to 52:31
Discussion on how Trump's presidency has altered the dynamics and expectations of Congress.
“There's a spiral effect, which is that the more that this aroma surrounds Congress, the fewer people really want to run for these jobs.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Support for this show comes from Making Peace Visible. Whether you lean left or right, you've probably heard that the upcoming midterms are the most consequential in American history. But no matter who wins, we'll still be living with a fracture down the middle of our country. Because we're so polarized, we have a system that fails to solve problems that affect everyone. But we're not going to stop disagreeing, so how can we make disagreement work for us? Beyond Polarization is a new podcast series from Making Peace Visible, focused on how to be more effective in a divided society. Look for Making Peace Visible on all platforms.
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2:45That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash newyorker. Use our link so they know we sent you. Well, I mean, it's worth saying the Washington media world, a small and shrinking drug, are hosting the president at a dinner celebrating the First Amendment the same week that the New York Times is in court having to quash subpoenas. Successfully quashed. Successfully. Well, here's the interesting thing, right? The judge not having any of it saying, if you don't withdraw these immediately, we will quash them. But they even went after, apparently because they are so careless, the mother of a journalist, the wife of a journalist demanding their phone records.
3:30You know, can you imagine your mom being subpoenaed, Jane? And then they served somebody while he was with his family watching sheep detectives. You know, this is how menacing these reporters really are. I mean, I thought the judge was fantastic in laying down what the law is. Yeah, I agree. And I have to say, I've been following it closely because I worked for 10 years on the regulations with the Justice Department on behalf of the Reporters Committee of the Freedom of the Press. So there are rules for prosecutors that require them to go to every other source of information before they would try to drag a reporter into court and make them reveal their sources.
4:11And they didn't do any of that. So I have a question. How are you guys feeling about the revamped White House Correspondents Dinner? You think that's an appropriate thing to do? It seems wrong to me to be celebrating a president who is trying to prosecute the press. So the first time was bad enough, doing it twice. I don't know. It's like somebody going back to a bad boyfriend. Here's the thing. You can't ask other people to defend rights for yourself that you yourself are not willing to expend anything on. You know, this is like set up for our show today on Congress. Speaking of which, actually, right, like if we're going to go after Congress, we might as well talk about the press tube.
4:57Welcome to the political scene from The New Yorker, a weekly discussion about the big questions in American politics. I'm Susan Glasser, and I'm joined today by my colleagues, Evan Osnos and Jane Mayer. Hey, Evan. Good morning, guys. Hey, Jane. So great to be with you. You too.
5:16This week, the incredible shrinking Congress. Both the House and the Senate are heading soon into their summer recess. The House began its break yesterday and won't be back for many, many weeks. The Senate leaves for home on August 7th. But they're heading out of town having done a lot of what Congress does right now, which is to say not much at all. In fact, the 119th Congress has passed fewer bills than many of its predecessors in decades. Just the other day, the Senate crashed through another stopgap measure to avoid a shutdown during the midterm election season. Things that used to be pretty standard in Congress, like passing a budget on time, approving annual appropriations bills through regular process, moving bills through the committee system, has basically broken down.
6:09In fact, I looked this up before we came together today. The last time that Congress passed all 13 appropriations bills by the September 30th annual deadline, that was, folks, in fiscal year 1997. Oh, wow. Meanwhile, Donald Trump has just kept going around Congress. He governs as president as if there is no legislative branch. See, for example, tariffs. See, for example, the war in Iran. Power that used to belong to the legislative branch, the power of the purse, the power to declare war, increasingly just doesn't get used or is surrendered whole cloth. So today, what happened to the United States Congress?
6:58Why has it abdicated so much responsibility? And can it ever reclaim the powers that have been surrendered over decades to the executive branch? Joining us today, I'm so glad to say, is Carl Hulse, Chief Washington Correspondent for The New York Times. He's been up on the Hill covering Congress since the Reagan administration. We call him the Dean of the Hill Press Corps. He's somebody I've known since the very beginning of my career, and I couldn't be more delighted to have him join us. I have to tell you, Susan, you know, I came to Washington in 2013. So by then, Congress had already slipped into this kind of non-functional dream state.
7:40But you actually, like, saw it when it worked. You covered it. Well, you know, working is always—Congress has always been a source of Americans, you know, great ire and discontent. You know, look at the things that people wrote about Congress in the 19th century, you know. When they were stabbing each other. Exactly. No, I came to Capitol Hill first as an intern somewhere after my first year in college. I started covering it full time a week after I graduated from college in 1990. This is at the very end of the long 40-year rule of Democrats over the House of Representatives. The Senate had changed hands a number of times during the Reagan era.
8:22And it was just before the admin of Newt Gingrich and his sort of takeover of Congress, which really changed the place. Exactly. We'll talk about that with Carl. But no, I spent eight great years covering Congress for roll call newspaper. And, you know, it was just a sort of crash course in how Washington worked at the time at the sort of the end of the Cold War. And the idea of not passing appropriations bills was unthinkable. If just one bill didn't get done by September 30th, it was a big emergency. It was a big story. The story back then was do we have permanent incumbency? That members of Congress were so entrenched, people wondered whether we'd ever have any turnover.
9:02Now, it's near constant turnover. People don't know the names of their members. We're changing district lines in the middle of the decade. So we have this system essentially of almost stasis and stability that's now turned into one of almost manufactured constant change. So today, Chief Washington Correspondent for The New York Times, Carl Hulse. Carl, thank you for joining us.
9:26Carl Hulse:Thank you. So we're calling you, for the purposes of this show, the dean of congressional reporters. And our theme today, how broken is Congress? How did it get that way? You know, can it ever come back? The incredible disappearing legislative branch. My question to start us off is really sort of where do you, you know, locate in time this kind of disappeared moment? And before the podcast, I went back and I read a very famous piece that you'll be familiar with that was published in 2012 in The Washington Post's sad, late, lamented outlook section by the congressional experts Tom Mann and Norm Ornstein.
10:08Basically, it was the first piece that really kind of said, hey, sound the alarm. Congress is dying here. Here's the key paragraph. The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme, scornful of compromise, unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence, and science, and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition. When one party moves this far from the mainstream, it makes it nearly impossible for the political system to deal constructively with a country's challenges. Now, that was back in 2012. Donald Trump was definitely not even a glimmer in anyone's eye except for his own when it came to running for president.
10:52You know, this dysfunction was already so embedded in Congress, right, that they're writing this in 2012. What's your rap on how Congress got this broken and when it really started?
11:04Carl Hulse:So I've been covering Congress in various incarnations since 1985. And unfortunately, I like to say I've spent four decades overseeing the demise of Congress. It's not your fault, Carl. I know, but I feel slightly responsible. And Norm and Tom did a great job on that. Their take was pretty partisan, right? They are very blaming the Republicans, who, of course, deserve some blame for sure. I think, you know, it's a bigger thing. Both parties have done a lot. As Susan, as you and I have talked about, one of the things that most sticks with me is when I got here, Congress considered itself the government.
11:46Carl Hulse:The administration was sort of the secondary player, right? The members of Congress who I first covered, a lot of them were World War II vets, combat vets. They'd been through it. And they were here to try and do something. And they didn't really care what the president said, but they're Article I. in the Constitution, right? They were the primary government. The president and the administration were transitory figures who were here to do their bidding, really. You know, they'd work in cooperation. But so much has changed, you know, and you can go through the whole thing, campaign fundraising, gerrymandering.
12:26Carl Hulse:Basically, the executive branch has sort of overcome the legislative branch. and, you know, members are really here. Many of them see themselves just doing the bidding of whatever party the presidency has. But during this Trump administration, it's really gotten grievous with the Republicans. That's not a partisan thought. We've documented this. They have just really chose to cede a lot of their authority to the president. Some of it hasn't been voluntary, right? The president, and through Russ Vogt, The OMB director has grabbed a lot of their spending power, which is really the power of Congress, right?
13:07Carl Hulse:The power of the purse. I know it's a cliche, but it's a true cliche, right? This is how the Congress is supposed to assert itself. And they've taken a lot of that away. But they've also taken away their power on tariffs, the power to declare war, you know, some of the big stuff that's right there in black and white in the Constitution. They've stood there while the administration has usurped them. So that's sort of my two-minute take on what's going on. But things have really accelerated in the loss of power to Congress. Last point I would make is, you know, once you give up power, you never get it back in Washington.
13:43Carl Hulse:I don't care who the next president is, a Democrat or Republican. They're not going to turn around and say, oh, goodness, boy, we shouldn't have done that to Congress. We need to get them going again. In fact, what really happens is the next people do it slightly more. It's always just a little more of a turn of the screw. So, Carl, you know, I have questions about things like courage, political courage, but also there is a substantial chunk of Americans who have been born and raised in a period when Congress doesn't work. And I think we need to kind of ground this in a bit of history. Not that there was a golden age where everything was, you know, comedy and goodwill everywhere.
14:20No. But what does a functioning Congress, what did a functioning Congress look and feel like? Are there moments that you think of as like, that's how it was supposed to work?
14:30Carl Hulse:I mean, I think more it's just like, you know, they used to make the laws and they would outline how the money is going to be spent and they would be doing it. I mean, the argument for Congress is that they're closer to the people, right? Certainly in the House, you know what your community needs. You know what your district needs. You'd come here. Almost when I got here, almost every person would come to Congress with one goal, right? They'd have some project that they're trying to do, something they're trying to accomplish. And now I don't see that other than maybe trying to be a big star on social media, right?
15:03Carl Hulse:That seems to be the goal of a lot of members of Congress. By the way, Carl, we mentioned last night the ultimate anecdata on proving your point there. Talking to a young intern on the Hill working for a member of Congress from Texas this summer whose legislative director left and isn't being replaced. All they have is a communication staff. Oh, that's it. That's the telling detail. It's the metaphor. Having a communications director without a legislative director is basically like having a mouth without a brain, right? So true. What do these people think their job actually is up there? I mean, do they go to committee meetings?
15:43Do they write legislation? Do they work in the back rooms and make deals with the other party? Or is it about being an influencer on social media and famous, getting on to the Sunday morning shows? I mean, what's the job?
15:58Carl Hulse:Yeah, I think, you know, there's certainly people who want to do the committee business. But, you know, the goal is to be, for many of them, is just to be a highly visible figure, right? It's like somebody who can tweet something out or X something out or whatever we call it now. And, you know, get some clicks. Now, this is a complicated subject. So we could talk about the loss of committee power, right? So this kind of, I hate to say it, but a lot of things do go back to Newt Gingrich. I mean, you know, it's sort of an easy, easy thing to say. But, you know, the vote parties have consolidated their power in the Speaker office rather than the committees where the chairman really used to be things.
16:42Carl Hulse:You know, back in the old days, in the 50s and 60s, even in the 70s, committees would meet for weeks and weeks on bills, right? And try and hash these bills out and write them right there in the committee room. But now the committees are basically, you know, age for television. Well, so who's writing the bills? Just for the uninitiated, the old bulls who used to run the committee chair were the power. What happened and who's the power now? They're still writing bills, but generally over the last few decades, really, the big bills have been written in the leadership suites, right? And even the appropriations bills.
17:22Carl Hulse:You know, you still have to have the appropriations staff really write the fine print. But, you know, they would get in a room in December, generally speaking, you know, when things, time is running out, and sort of throw these, you know, and be bipartisan because it's certainly in the Senate. You have to have 60 votes most of the time. And, you know, like, okay, here's the give and take and here's the bill and we're going to just throw it out there and subject it to the membership. And appropriations, as you guys all know, used to be the big power, right? You want to be on the appropriations committee.
17:57Carl Hulse:And a lot of those appropriators, cardinals, as they're known in the subcommittees, they're like, well, wait a minute, we're not even getting to write our own bills. And a lot of this is, well, we just don't have time to do it. Well, they don't have time to do it because they wasted a bunch of time in the preceding months and months, right? They're not here very often. The Senate famously comes in now at 530 on Monday nights and leaves at 145 on Thursdays, which is called Senate Friday.
18:32Even that's not honest, huh?
18:34Carl Hulse:And they race out the door. And I'm literally, if you're standing outside the Senate chamber at 145 on Thursday, you're going to get run over. I mean, they are out the door. And I mean, they do have other responsibilities and families. And every leader recently has come in and a Democrat, Republican, and said, you know what? We are going to make them stay and work. And this is going to be a thing. And we're going to have amendment votes. And, you know, the members just don't like it. You've hit on a couple of things that get to the strange change in the culture. The fact that when you started out, it was a lot of World War II vets.
19:11And now, as you say, a lot of folks are thinking about how can I make sure that I get a lot of social media clicks out of what I say. I mean, this, frankly, without putting too fine a point out, this gets to who is running for Congress. And I'm trying to figure out who is it. Does it feel to you like let's get into the psychological motives here, frankly? Like, why are people running for Congress?
19:34Carl Hulse:Why are people running for Congress? What is going on there? What's changed? And a lot of good people don't want to run for Congress anymore because it's just a terrible experience, right? It can be when you're just getting piled on all the time. So both parties now, because of gerrymandering and the way the districts are shaped, and by the way, Elbridge Gerry is buried on Capitol Hill in Congressional Cemetery, you know, who's sort of the father of gerrymandering. I often pay my respects to him when I go through the cemetery there. This is also sort of simplified, but you have the extremes in both parties are running in the primaries, right?
20:13Carl Hulse:So the most Democratic person and the most Republican person or MAGA person, you know, they win the primaries to a large extent and they get here and those people aren't going to work together. It's a big shrinking middle, you know, where the deals have been made in Congress in the past. You had to have the people in the middle who were willing to compromise. And there's just so many fewer of them. And also, you know, there's so few districts in play. So look at this election right now, right? By any measurement, the Democrats should be crushing the Republicans in the midterm, certainly in the House, given Trump's unpopularity, generally his shrinking popularity with independents.
20:57Carl Hulse:You know, but Democrats, you have to count up the races they could win. And even though they need four seats only, I mean, you know, it's not a sure thing yet because there's so few districts that are really in play. I looked at that the other day, and it's just 18 districts right now that the Cook Political Report assesses as actual toss-ups. You and I remember the days in the 50, 60, exactly 50 to 60 seats. You talked about Newt Gingrich and what happened. I think we should tell people a little bit about what happened exactly in the 1994 Gingrich Revolution, because they did change the structure of Congress in some ways that I think live on today, whether it was term limits for committee chairs.
21:44So that broke the back of the old bulls, as Jane referred to them. What else happened then that sort of set the template for where we are now?
21:52Carl Hulse:So consolidation certainly of power in the leadership office. So, you know, Gingrich was the result of 40 years of Democratic control of the House. It almost seemed like there would never be a Republican majority. But the Democrats brought it on themselves, too, because they had certainly entrenched, did a lot of things that were not very appropriate. And if you remember, then got caught in some really minimal corruption, but it was really bad. Yeah, they were writing bad checks. People who are listening to this, they don't even know what a physical check is. And there was literally an internal House bank, and they were basically writing checks that they knew their bank account couldn't cover.
22:37And the little newspaper that I worked for, Roll Call, this was their great scoop, is to get a list of all the members who had overdrafts. In the age of Donald Trump making literally billions of dollars off the presidency, it seems quaint. But it actually was a big scandal.
Read the full transcript
22:53Carl Hulse:Well, in 1992, a lot of those people got voted out or had to resign. It was terrible. So it set the stage for the takeover. So I think what Newt Gingrich represents is something that we've been talking about a little bit. sort of the televised aspect of politics, right? So Newt, of course, used C-SPAN to his advantage, was down on the House floor and giving these speeches late at night against the Democrats. Of course, no one was there, but it looked like he was giving a big speech to the full House every day. And this, I think, led to people making much more of the media in terms of what you get here.
23:33Carl Hulse:They have the contract with America. You know, here's our bullet points of the things we want to do. So all this sort of set the stage for later on, I think, what has just evolved and evolved over in Congress. Although, you know, Donald Trump, though, has taken it to an entirely new level. You mentioned among the things that deter people from running for Congress is fundraising. And I just wondered, how much of an issue is it in the lives of the people that you're covering? Yeah, I mean, it's still a big deal. But Jane, this is something I think you can really relate to. It's a little less than it used to be because of the super PACs, right?
24:11Carl Hulse:So now you have all this money that pours in from the outside. So the members, even Republican individual members, typically do not out-raise Democrats. But then they wait for this huge influx of money to come in on top of their money. So and now there's a new Supreme Court ruling, as you know, that there's even a lot more coordination between the parties and the candidates, which I actually also think is going to take some of the fundraising pressure off of the individual candidates. But they still spend a huge amount of time raising money. And, you know, that becomes one of their main things that they do during the day.
24:51Carl Hulse:When you have a few minutes, you slip over to a place off of Capitol Hill where you can legally make calls for fundraising. But the super PAC thing has been a huge, that's a whole giant discussion in itself. But it's really been a giant impact on the way congressional elections are run. All right, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Congress right now and what specifically works or doesn't work with the leadership we have up on Capitol Hill in the age of Trump. The political scene from The New Yorker will be back in just a moment.
25:34If you've been enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and a review on the podcast platform of your choice. and while you're there, don't forget to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. This is a big summer for my family. My daughter graduated middle school and will start high school in the fall. Over the course of a year, we went from having a kid to having a full-blown teenager and, ooh, big changes. And over the next four years, the changes are only going to get bigger, which can feel scary. But a little help from Policy Genius helps my family relax and savor these sweet summer moments without feeling anxious about the future.
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28:46Okay, so Carl, let's talk about Congress right now in the age of Trump. You know, you mentioned that Newt Gingrich and his Republican Party, one of the things they did was broke the back of the committee chairs and centralized power in the speakership. And yet Mike Johnson, in many ways, is one of the weakest speakers we've ever seen. He's a wholly dependent creature of Donald Trump.
29:10Carl Hulse:He's the co-speaker with Donald Trump, right? I mean, that's just the way it's working for him. He doesn't get much done without Trump's influence. Now, I have sympathy, maybe even pity for Mike Johnson for the job that he has, because with such a narrow margin and some really, really cantankerous members who are, you know, they're willing to make a big stake and blow things up for a while until Donald Trump calls them, which is what they want. You know, they want this call from Trump that makes him a power player. But yeah, I would say Mike Johnson would be in big trouble without Donald Trump.
29:48Carl Hulse:Now, John Thune in the Senate, I think, is right now a very interesting, interesting case of a relationship with Trump because Trump is mad at John Thune for not getting rid of the filibuster and doing certain other things that Trump is insisting. And Thune at this moment is sort of saying, you know what? I need to protect my institution and my membership and the people who are running. So he has shown some backbone to Trump. And I think in the next few months, we have to see where that actually leads to. It's a rare moment when the Senate has actually resisted something Trump wants. Trump gave a speech earlier this week in Georgia where he said that it's like the Senate is a place that you can send things when you want them to die.
30:35And meaning that now he's got this Save America Act. This is his effort to try to impose restrictions on voting. And of course, he doesn't have the votes. And Thune has said, look, if you if you want this to happen, then, you know, get on the phone and call and get the votes. Predictions are easy to make. But how do you see this playing out at this point? Yeah.
30:56Carl Hulse:The one thing I want, I don't want the Senate Republicans to look like a bastion of resistance. Yeah, I think that's so important. Every week, right, you know, people are like, this time, this is it. This is really the moment they're breaking with him. However, there has been some resistance, right? But so and the resistance is been to changing the filibuster. John Thune made this his legacy item, even though we've clashed a little bit about him chipping away at the filibuster. But he has made protecting the filibuster, which he inherited from Mitch McConnell, who also wanted to protect the filibuster.
31:31Carl Hulse:This is his mainstay, right? So he is not going to give up on that. The only way to pass this SAVE Act is to change the rules in some kind of procedural backstage doorway and do it. And I think he just doesn't want to do it. And so the question becomes, you know, where does that leave him with President Trump? And he seemed to be sort of coming to grips with it. You know, people will say, hey, in doing this, aren't you going to anger the president? You know, and he had a comment like, yeah, I think that's probably going to happen. But, you know, Chan Thun almost didn't run a few years ago, was kind of talked into running and then became the leader.
32:16Carl Hulse:And, you know, he's definitely the example of the person who got the job he wanted and probably wishes he hadn't because it is a really tricky situation for him. Okay, so maybe he's standing up for the filibuster, but what reason would Congress give for why they relinquish their important rights on issues such as tariffs, which is a form of taxation, as we know, despite what Trump says, and also on the war powers, which are the two main powers that they've got under the Constitution? Why are they not taking the power that they've got? I think fear is part of it, right? I do think that. I do think that there is a tendency in Congress to say, hey, if somebody else wants to make that decision, you know, why should I stop them from making what could ultimately be an unpopular decision?
33:11Carl Hulse:I think the Iran war is probably going to be a real good example of that. But I also have another thought about this. Our government has sort of been for 250 years now, easy to keep track of, run on good faith, right? The various branches of the government have always operated within their lanes with the expectation that the other lane person is going to do that too. Now, there's been some obvious disruptions in that. And, you know, Nixon and Watergate, even FDR, you know, trying to pack the court, things like that. And so now we're out of good faith because we have one branch of the government who's going far beyond what people would have typically expected in the past.
33:56Carl Hulse:And I think the other branch certainly is wrestling with how to deal with it, right? Because they don't have the weapons really to immediately do anything because what's your weapon? It's like, well, we're going to restrict spending. Well, are you? You know, how do you do that? How long is that going to take? So I do think there's resistance, but politically people don't want to make too big of a fight with Trump just because of the hassle that comes with that, right? I mean, there's a real fear and there is some actual fear, fear of, you know, things that can happen if you get too crosswise with Trump.
34:33You know, Carl, it's very interesting because it does seem that there's almost a detaching, though, from a certain set of political realities. You mentioned one reason for that, which is gerrymandering. Another reason obviously is a huge amount of money. But, you know, Donald Trump is by any measure a historically unpopular president, right? He is now sunk below, I think, in the nonpartisan Pew poll that just came out this week. Essentially, one-third support the president. Two-thirds of Americans think he's not doing a good job. They disapprove of his presidency. These are terrible numbers, and yet you haven't seen a corresponding collapse in what Republicans on Capitol Hill are willing to do.
35:15If anything, what I was really struck by and I wanted to ask you about is this effort to have a third reconciliation bill. And the reason I'm asking about that is because basically this trend, we've been talking about it, it's actually existed for the last several presidents. You know, essentially that it's so hard to get anything through Congress per Jane's question that each president gets one shot at it. Barack Obama in his first year, he got his shot. He did Obamacare. Joe Biden essentially had one shot at a big bill. And the Republicans, they had their one shot at the beginning of this Trump second term, the one big, beautiful bill.
35:55And yet, interestingly, they are now trying to come back with another big bite at that apple to say, OK, we can't pass these individual bills in regular order like we used to. So we're going to throw everything together in these big, omnibus budget reconciliation bills. And I thought, wow, if they were able to pass this third reconciliation bill, that actually would be a kind of a breakthrough in not necessarily a good way, which would indicate that the president's party had the power to defy majority sentiment, basically, and to use the levers of an empowered minority to pass big sweeping things without even the veneer of accountability that we've had in recent years.
36:38What's going on with that? And are they going to be able to make that kind of a breakthrough?
36:43Carl Hulse:Well, the House, you know, has pushed ahead with its budget that would allow this. The Senate is resisting. But you really, this is the filibuster, right? When I say the Republicans have been working their way around the filibuster, it's through reconciliation. So now they are taking the actual spending bills and the spending for unpopular things like ICE, but now maybe for defense because Democrats voted en masse against the annual Pentagon policy bill, which never happens. Everyone always votes for that. As you know, Susan, Bob Byrd would be very unhappy with what's going on with reconciliation because this was a process meant to reduce spending and cut the deficit, and now it's being used to raise spending and increase the deficit so and it's a real i just can say the word perversion of the process this was not what this process was meant to be and this is how they're finding their way around uh obstruction by the democrats in the senate so we'll see what happens there is some nervousness in the senate about doing it mainly because to get there you have to take voteramas.
37:56Carl Hulse:So you have these huge, really politically charged voting marathons that a lot of Republicans in the Senate certainly don't want to have to participate in 100 days before the election. As you know, there are a range of proposals about how you could, quote unquote, fix Congress. And, you know, some of these are structural. You know, you could expand staffing. You could make it more robust, try to restore some of the things that have been cut over the years. If you were - Term limits. Yeah, term limits. If you were king for a day and you could, and, you know, let's like, I think we owe it to people to actually try to say, okay, these are things that could help.
38:37What would be your wish list for the three things or whatever?
38:41Carl Hulse:I would say nonpartisan gerrymandering, which California sort of had. I do think that that is really to have actual sort of neutral district drawing in the states. But look what happened. California had that. Texas engaged in some pretty radical mid-decade redistricting. So California threw out its independence. So, you know, every time you try and do something, there's a reaction to trying and fixing it. I don't know that term limits would be particularly good. Now you hear a lot of, because people are supposed to impose the term limits, right? But you also hear a lot, I think, campaign finance restrictions, which, of course, are out the window, really would be helpful.
39:27Carl Hulse:I mean, you have some of the nation's super wealthiest people who are getting to decide a whole bunch of these races. And that's not a good thing. I also think one thing that I always say I hope we don't experience, but crisis generally motivates Congress to try and do something like we saw with COVID. But then we also saw COVID create a lot of problems, partisan problems. So my theory about crises being something that can move Congress in the right direction sort of went out the window. So I'm worried about the future of Congress. I'm just going to say it. I mean, it's not in a good spot right now.
40:07Carl Hulse:Power is diminished. There's a lot of outside influence on these campaigns that determine the outcome with a lot of really special interests. I mean, crypto is a new emerging special interest in these congressional races. You have big money. So let's hope for the best guys. No, but the things you mentioned a moment ago, like nonpartisan gerrymandering, campaign finance restrictions, I mean, obviously, these would be a heavy lift. But is there something that you can see? Is there a pathway to achieve any of the things that you think would help? I wish I could say that I have some magic bullet here.
40:48Carl Hulse:But I don't. I think it's going to take time and public reaction. The zeitgeist, essentially. It's like, I mean, well, this gets to our question. We often on this show about culture versus politics, like which has to change first for something to happen. We're not guys. I'm sorry. We're not going Carl's right. We're not we're not headed in the direction toward good government reforms that's going to bring. I don't think anybody thinks that. But I also think that if you don't even talk about what it is that would fix the thing. Well, then where are you headed? I mean, it's interesting to me, having sort of lived through watching Newt Gingrich have such an impact on the culture and process in Congress, that by writing his, you know, contract with America and running on it and having the whole slate of the party run on it, they came in with a mandate to really change it.
41:36I don't see that happening in the Democratic Party as a response right now. And I agree with Carl. I've got to say we have seen crises create change. So it wasn't just COVID but also the Watergate crisis created a ton of the reforms that you could say have had some unintended consequences but changed the culture of Congress. So, I mean, we have seen sort of major revolutionary changes take place in Congress, maybe not for the best, especially under the Gingrich Revolution. But it has happened. I don't know why it couldn't again, but I'm not seeing it right now.
42:15Carl Hulse:Well, it's just there's nothing immediate happening, so it's going to take a longer time. I don't know, maybe AI, maybe that's going to provoke some sort of public reaction. Meaning essentially galvanize people to do something. To do something. I don't know what that is, but I mean it's kind of something that's over the horizon right now. People are really fed up on the money front, I have to say. There's a tremendous, if you look at Paul's, tremendous amount of reaction bipartisan against this idea that a handful of the richest people are so ruling elections. But who's taking it on? Because the people who are running need the money.
42:50Carl Hulse:I mean I will say I was at the inaugural. I was in the rotunda and in the back, standing in the back, you know, it was moved inside. And looking up at that dais and seeing the money people, I just like it was—that was quite a moment. That's who's got the power in Washington today. Carl, thank you for joining us. Yeah, it's fun. We're going to have to have you back to get an update on what's happened to the incredible shrinking Congress. Meanwhile, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, a little chat about what does it mean in the time of the imperial presidency to have a legislative branch?
43:30The political scene from The New Yorker will be back in just a moment.
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44:46That was, I think, stimulating, if not uplifting. You know, Carl, as you pointed out, Evan, might be well positioned to write the obit for Congress as we know it. Jane, what was your takeaway from that? You know, I know Congress doesn't work in the eyes of most people, but it actually does work in the eyes of about the 1 % of the country that's incredibly rich and getting what it wants out of Congress. If you take a look at the tax cuts they've been getting and the lack of action on climate change that the fossil fuel industry has been getting, I think what we're looking at is not just a Congress that's bullied by Trump, but a Congress that's been corrupted by the campaign finance system.
45:31We didn't talk that much about it, but to me, the other thing that's happened since Carl and I first came to Congress in the 1980s is the wild swinging back and forth. So it's not actually interestingly enough that Congress has been captured by one party or another. But we've been in this age of turnover in control, which is something that was so dramatically different, of course, than having 40 years of one party rule. And so it's not that Congress has done nothing on climate change, for example, but Joe Biden and the Democrats come in and they control for a couple of years both houses of Congress as well as the presidency.
46:04And they pass this stimulus package that includes the largest amount of spending ever on climate change. And then boom, two years later, there's this sort of head spinning inconsistency in this superpower, right, where we have one party that is in control and we pass this legislation and then we're incentivizing electric car industry and all these things, solar industry. Then boom, two years later, never mind about the billions of dollars we've done for this. Now we're going to undo all this regulation. I think that's part of why we're like a superpower with schizophrenia. But what you're getting to is the net effect of all that is a kind of cynicism.
46:42It says, what's the point of doing anything if I know it's going to be undone? Which is a long running theme for all three of us here is sort of how to think about that kind of nihilistic approach to politics to basically say, what's the point of anything? One of the most interesting observations that Carl made is that fear is the single most dominant emotional impulse that defines it, which is so different than a group of people who, you know, let's say came out of World War II, came to Washington saying, all right, this is the next great challenge for us. And look, there's a risk in always how the halcyon days you are.
47:15I mean, the exclusion, the corruption, the backroom dealing and so on and so on. We know that. But it is astonishing to realize how much is now governed by sheer fear. And, you know, we mentioned Newt Gingrich. I don't think you can talk enough about Newt Gingrich when it comes to the culture of Congress. I mean, he is the one who established that idea. There's that famous moment back in the 70s. He gave a speech to college Republicans where he said, remember, politics is not about Boy Scout values. As he says, it's a war for power and a war for power is the world we live in now. And he tells them to get nasty.
47:52I don't know, Susan, just because because you're sort of saying, no, it's not captured. I just wanted to say that even when the Democrats did have control and I actually think that they often don't play hardball the same way that Newt Gingrich did. But when Biden came in and the Democrats had power, they tried to pass SB1, House Bill 1, Senate Bill 1, which was to try to really put through a bunch of campaign finance reforms, money reforms, and other reforms that had to do with making the process cleaner, more transparent, and controlling the money. And it dealt with a lot of democracy reforms.
48:34And even the Democrats' own couldn't pass it because there were a couple members who wouldn't go along with it. And, you know, if you looked carefully, in need of the kind of money that they didn't want to reform. I really do think when I look at Congress these days, I just look at it and think without changing the money system, the campaign finance system, it's very hard to change anything else. Right. I think we all agree on that, Jane. I think Neither party makes a huge priority of it. They don't believe they really ever have the votes to have meaningful structural reform of their own institution.
49:13And so over time, we've let the power ebb away in part because there's not the political will. and, you know, ask a political consultant in either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party how much political capital the public really wants to expend on things like campaign finance reform. And in the end, sure, you can get huge majority say they don't like the system. And what they really care about, understandably, is how much money it costs to buy food at the grocery store. What they really care about. And so, you know, politics is about hierarchy. You can get a lot of different issues that poll really well, and absolutely people are disgusted by the rule of the billionaires.
49:53But in the end, what they tend to prioritize are things like getting health care, getting money in their pockets. And that's why for Democrats, issues that have won them back the House as recently as 2018 are issues like health care for Republicans. It's tax cuts that tend to motivate their base. And so, you know, again, I think that's the cycle that we're in where people know that the system is broken, but there hasn't been the ability to either for one party either to get such a majority that they would have the ability to force through the reforms that they favor or conversely to expend the political capital when they have a more narrow majority.
50:35There's a spiral effect, which is that the more that this aroma surrounds Congress, the fewer people really want to run for these jobs. I mean, if you think of the three of us, how many people do we know who have been deterred from the idea because they said, do I really want it? Is this really the prize that's worth seeking? And it's it is a remarkable difference from where it was at a certain point when I was sitting with somebody the other day who grew up thinking being a United States center was going to be the greatest thing a person could possibly do. It was service. It was stature. It was the ultimate club.
51:06Nowadays, it's kind of sneered at. And this gets to the core of our show, frankly, which is like, what is the thing in the culture, whether it's psychological or in the structure of our media or in the structure of our financing? Or what is it that can actually turn the tide, that can feel different to people? Is there something you think that would make people just think differently about what's possible in Congress? Well, honestly, I mean, you know, Trump has really come in with a tremendous amount of force and changed a lot. I would say it's in the direction that Carl described as bad faith.
51:47And an awful lot was a gentleman's agreement over the years. And he's just simply not been a gentleman, as we've seen it. You know, I mean, he's basically broken all the rules and just come in like a blunderbuss. And he's got Russ Vogt helping him figure out how to sort of take back all the budget power. He's got a Supreme Court that's backed him up to some extent. So we have seen change. For the worse, I would, you know, I think many of us feel. But Trump is really rearranging the furniture. And Congress is not standing up for itself. They want to put the furniture in front of the door and make a barricade, but it turns out— Well, they did that, actually, in 2021 on January 6th.
52:31Yeah, exactly. Guys, I think we're going to have to leave it here. I definitely think we should have Carl back. What a great guest and what an important topic. So I want to thank you for a really provocative conversation.
52:44This has been The Political Scene from The New Yorker. I'm Susan Glasser. We have research assistance today from Alex D 'Elia. Our producer is Nora Ritchie. Mixing by Mike Kutchman. Stephen Valentino is our executive producer. Our theme music is by Alison Leighton-Brown. Thank you so much for listening.
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53:49Each week, journalists from Wired break down the biggest stories in tech while speaking directly with the people building, challenging, and reshaping the future. Is the AI boom sustainable? How do you protect your privacy in an age of constant surveillance? Uncanny Valley tackles the questions driving today's tech debates and lighting up your group chats. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.
From the publisher
The Washington Roundtable is joined by Carl Hulse, the New York Times’ chief Washington correspondent, to discuss Congress’s dwindling role in the American political system. Why are Congress members passing fewer bills than their predecessors? Why can the institution no longer complete basic tasks of governing, such as passing a budget on time? Are representatives more interested in being social-media stars than crafting legislation? The panel analyzes why Congress has increasingly surrendered its power to the President, in areas as diverse as tariffs and the war in Iran. “Once you give up power, you never get it back in Washington,” Hulse says.
This week’s reading:
“The White House Press Corps in the Second Trump Era,” by Katy Waldman
“The Complications of Graham Platner’s Veteran Identity,” by Jasper Craven
“Maine’s Mad Scramble to Replace Graham Platner,” by Jason Zengerle
“Trump’s War on Journalists,” by Ruth Marcus
The Political Scene draws on the reporting and analysis found in The New Yorker for lively conversations about the big questions in American politics. Join the magazine’s writers and editors as they put into context the latest news—about elections, the economy, the White House, the Supreme Court, and much more. New episodes are available three times a week.
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