Family Estrangement Is on the Rise. Are Politics to Blame?

0:06Hi, Anna. Hi. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. So Thanksgiving is around the corner, and this is obviously a time where a lot of people are kind of anticipating having difficult political conversations with their family or just difficult conversations in general. And then there's also the more extreme version of this, where people aren't going home at all. And you've written about the concept at its most extreme, which is this idea of family estrangement or going no contact. Is this the concept that you think is on the rise? Yes. When I started reporting on estrangement, I was shocked to discover that by some estimates, 27 % of Americans are estranged from at least one relative.

0:50And that is a number that some psychologists think is rising. The kind of research on estrangement is in its infancy, but there's a lot of evidence to show that it is growing and some of it is politically motivated.

1:11That's Anna Russell, a contributing writer at The New Yorker. Last year, Anna wrote a piece about the rise of family estrangement, why more people are choosing to go no contact. I wanted to talk with Anna about how politics figures into decisions to cut off contact with family members, what's driving the broader increase in family estrangement, and whether reconciliation is possible, both within individual relationships and perhaps across our civic life. This is the political scene. I'm Tyler Foggett, and I'm a senior editor at The New Yorker.

1:45So let's talk more about what estrangement actually means. Like, your piece is a lot about this idea of going no contact. So what exactly does that entail? Like, is it just exactly what it sounds like, just kind of making a decision, I am not going to speak to this person or text them ever again, even if they are my mom? Or is it a little bit more subtle than that, where it's like, maybe I'll kind of have this distant relationship with her, and I won't go home for Thanksgiving, But like, I don't know, maybe I'll send her a birthday card every now and then. Yeah, so I think there's a wide range of types of estrangement.

2:15And no contact is what it sounds like, like no contact. You're not contacting your family. You're not accepting contact from them. You've asked them to stop contacting you, maybe except in case of certain emergencies. But there's also a very low contact and low contact, which are just sort of more distanced relationships that you might have. like you might occasionally send a birthday card or go over to somebody's house for Thanksgiving, for instance. But yeah, no contact is what it sounds like. No contact. And do you think like, I feel like back in the day, the idea of, you know, like if I were to say like, I just don't speak to this person in my life, that would almost be taboo.

2:55I feel like I see on social media, like a lot of people not necessarily bragging, but being very open about the fact that they have gone no contact. And so I wonder if it's almost something that you could characterize almost as like a trend. I mean, I feel like they're like influencers. Their whole thing is they're no contact influencers. I would say there's a community of people who have decided to go no contact. And you see that online on TikTok and you see it on Reddit forums. There's a really engaged Reddit forum for estranged adult children, meaning children who have grown up and then cut off contact with their parents.

3:31And on these forums, you see different forms of lingo, like no contact, low contact. And you see a lot of people posting about difficulties they've had in their families and then asking for responses from other people in the community. And I think that can lead to a sense of belonging. And so I do see that as a growing thing. So you wrote this piece back in August of 2024, although it's something that kind of periodically goes viral. Like, I feel like I saw a lot of people talking about this piece, you know, even just like a few months ago online. And so I'm curious, like, what made you want to examine this phenomenon last year?

4:08Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, it was first brought to my attention by an editor. And then when I started looking into it, I learned just how common it is. And that was really shocking to me. And then secondly, I was expecting a baby at the time that I started working on the story. And so I was thinking a lot about family dynamics, what kind of relationship I would have to my child and vice versa. I think that stuff is always interesting, like how families work or don't work. Yeah. No, it's funny. I assume you weren't thinking at the time about the idea of like your own kid going no contact with you.

4:47I mean, they were very like full on contact at that time. But, you know, it's it's a really hard it's a hard subject because basically, yeah, I started I started reporting it when I was expecting. And then I took a break after I gave birth. And then I I took quite a long time on maternity leave. And when I came back to it, I was a parent. So I sort of had like two separate perspectives of sort of not having had that parenting experience and then having had it when I came back to finish the story. So it became quite personal in some ways and difficult. And I really felt for both sides, the parents who had been cut off and the kids who had made their own path.

5:34So I want to talk to you about how you arrived at the decision to focus on a woman named Amy, who sort of provides our way into this topic of family estrangement. Well, I thought Amy's story was really interesting because it existed in kind of this area that was more about worldview and political differences than, you know, there are some forms of estrangement that are clearly a good thing for the adult child, like physical abuse, sexual abuse, and you can really understand that. But I wanted to look at a case where it might be more difficult for some people to understand. And it might be kind of this worldview difference where a younger generation is thinking about things in a different way than an older generation.

6:23And also it's political. Like Amy had very serious political differences with her family. And also Amy was very articulate and very kind to share her side of the story with me. Yeah, I want to talk more about the kind of like more abstract causes of family estrangement. Because like, as you mentioned, there are these really concrete reasons like abuse. And then there are these other concepts like the idea of going no contact because you have a parent who is narcissistic or toxic, which is interesting because some of that stuff is just so subjective. So I guess I'm curious, like, if you you think that that kind of latter category of like you were separating yourself from this person because they're toxic or because you don't agree with their political beliefs, like if that just kind of leads to a thornier kind of estrangement.

7:14Like, I mean, I think it's definitely thornier in the way that like the, you know, the public might view it or just like the way that you explain it to your friends. Like they might be more likely to disagree with you in a way where like, you know, if someone is like, I'm not talking to my dad because he sexually abused me, it'd be hard to find someone who doesn't agree with that decision. But I guess like, do you think that it weighs on them more when their decision for the estrangement is one that could so easily be, you know, picked apart by someone with a different worldview? Yeah, and I think it's really hard for people who are making that decision, for adult children who are trying to go no contact from their parents to explain to other people that it's because of politics or it's because of a worldview difference.

7:55there is a strong bias in our culture towards keeping families together, right? Like everyone wants a happy family. At the same time, there is this movement among younger people to go to therapy and sort of like talk about their family relations and maybe see their parents more as individuals rather than parents as part of a family unit. And if you see your parents more as individuals, you can find their flaws and you can sort of distance yourself from them in an easier way. So I think that is something that a lot of the experts I spoke to spoke about the younger generation as seeing the family unit in a different way, less dutiful and more like a romantic relationship.

8:42Like you should get something that you want from it and both sides should be happy. Yeah, like the idea that it's like a relationship, the relationship with your family is not one that is kind of like involuntary. Like you can kind of choose whether to opt in or not, which is like a funny way to think about like, you know, your parents. But yeah, I mean, you can't really choose who you know, the family you're born into. But as you get older, you in our culture can make a decision to cut off contact to have a family with friends instead. So I wanted to look at a case that was that was that kind of estrangement.

9:18So let's take a break, and then when we get back, I want to talk more about the role that politics might play in deciding to go no contact with the family. This is the political scene from The New Yorker.

9:35Hi, I'm David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker. At this year's Academy Awards, Timothee Chalamet and Tiana Taylor aren't the only major nominees. The New Yorker will be there too, with two nominated short films, which you can watch at newyorker.com slash video. Two People Exchanging Saliva was executive produced by Julianne Moore and Isabelle Huppert, and it's set in a dystopian Paris where kissing is illegal. Our animated short film Retirement Plan follows a man as he dreams about all the things he's going to do when he's working. You can enjoy both of those films and our full library of acclaimed short films at newyorker.com slash video.

10:29So Anna, I want to talk about how politics in particular figures into the research you did for this piece and the conversations you had with people who experienced family estrangement over politics. To what extent does this start and end with Donald Trump? Like when you spoke to people who had broken with their family over politics, was it usually a Trump thing or did you have, you know, like in New York, there are a lot of, I did this piece about political anxiety in the lead up to the mayoral election and spoke to a lot of therapists who spend like a lot of time kind of dealing with patients who are struggling to kind of connect with their children or their parents over politics.

11:08And one thing that often came up was this idea of like, you know, you have a mom who supports Andrew Cuomo and is really worried about Mom Donnie ruining the city. And then you have a kid who was like energized politically for the first time in years because of Mom Donnie. And so there's almost like a inter-party conflict. And so I guess I'm just curious how much of the conversations that you were having with people who had gone no contact with their family was basically just like about Trump versus more sideways issues that have to do with politics. Yeah, I think Trump was in there for sure. But I think when I was reporting it, a lot of people were dealing with issues related to the pandemic.

11:50And, you know, the pandemic brought up lots of questions about vaccination, social distancing, lifestyle. In the case of Amy, she was really like pro-vaccine and social distancing, whereas her family was not. And that created a lot of struggles for them to see eye to eye on that. So when it comes to Amy, it seems like the rupture between her and her family sort of stemmed from the fact that she was getting married and she wanted her parents to get vaccinated before she had her wedding so that they could attend. And they refused to. And that is what led to the family unit sort of dissolving, which makes me wonder, you know, when we talk about politics leading to family estrangement.

12:34Do you think that it more often happens because of like some kind of specific incident like that? Like it seems to me from reading your piece that it is unlikely that someone is going to have like a really bad conversation at the dinner table, like a bad political argument that then leads to going no contact. It seems like there has to be some kind of like, you know, climactic event that then sort of leads to someone making that decision. I think it ends up being a lot of small things and then one big thing, usually like the straw that breaks camel's back or whatever. In the stories that I heard, at least the way the people that I spoke to were telling them, it was like they would trace a long history of disagreements that led to one final fight and then they cut off contact after that.

13:18I mean, some people had a sort of slow removal, like less and less contact and not even declaring that they're fully, fully leaving the relationship, just sort of backing away slowly. But others sent like Amy sent a specific note saying, do not contact me again. One of the experts you quoted in your piece is someone named Joshua Coleman, who says that one of the reasons why estrangement is becoming more common is that we're seeing these changing notions of what constitutes harmful, abusive, traumatizing, or neglectful behavior. I wonder if you can speak a little bit more about that idea, like kind of your sense of something that may not have been seen as harmful or traumatizing several years ago that now is kind of considered to be that.

14:05And then if you think that there's a world in which that framing can apply to politics, too, like our notions of what constitutes unacceptable behavior or beliefs has has changed. Yeah, so I think what Josh Coleman was saying was that, you know, our understanding of what is a traumatic event has changed over time. And like a couple generations ago, you know, it was more common for parents to be very strict to discipline their children physically in some cases. And now we might find some of those things unacceptable. He also pointed out that there's been a rise of people attending therapy and that has kind of opened up this whole sort of understanding of family dynamics that is different than our parents or their parents might have had.

14:56And Josh Coleman said something really interesting, which was that, you know, therapists sort of unconsciously reflect the biases of their own time. And our time is one that really values independence. So you might have a therapist advising independence and encouraging severing ties. Yeah, I wanted to ask about that. Like, to what extent did the sources you spoke with basically say, I'm doing this in part because my therapist recommended it versus like they had a conversation with their therapist that made them realize that this dynamic they were describing was really abusive and harmful. And then that kind of empowered them to make the decision to walk away from their family completely.

15:37I'd say most people said that they were thinking about it already and they sort of talked about their decision with their therapist and worked out how to do it in a way that seemed safe and feasible. Or they started seeing their therapist after they had broken with their family to sort of process that. One thing that I noticed across the board was that it was not easy for anyone even after they had severed ties. Like it was something that they were processing with their therapist or with others for a long time, no matter what their decision was to stay in a relationship or to cut it off.

16:19So in a minute, I want to talk about what it looks like when people try to reconcile and resume contact with their family. This is the political scene from The New Yorker.

16:37Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening, alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown-Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Charlemagne Tha God, and so many more. That's all on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

17:14At one point in your piece, you bring up the idea of reconciliation. And I want to talk about that, both on a micro and macro level. Based on your research and conversations, how common is it for someone to come back from estrangement and recultivate a relationship, be it a close relationship or just a civil one? And what does that process look like? Yeah, so I got pretty different answers on this depending on who I spoke with. There was one psychologist in California, Sherry Campbell, and she usually sees people who have already cut ties and are kind of processing that decision. And she said she does not see a lot of reconciliations.

17:55But then when I spoke to Joshua Coleman, he said that if the parent is able, this is between parent and children, there are lots of different types of exchange, but specifically between parents and children, if the parent is able to get the child to attend family therapy with them, and if the parent is also able to respect the child's boundaries regarding like when and how often to talk to them, then the chance of reconciliation is quite high. That's what he sees. I gather there's also like a good portion of people in the forums and online groups who don't think that reconciliation is a good idea, right?

18:33I guess I'm wondering how this kind of connects with just this idea that our culture has given up on the idea that people can change or that the burden should be placed on like the child to get their parents to change. I think a lot of people in the estranged adult child kind of community are not looking to reconcile right, you know, when I sort of was looking at this issue. Like, I think it might change over time, but there is a strong thread of people who just think it's better to let it lie, and that is not a goal of theirs. But then there's a bunch of people who are sort of ambivalent who maybe would like it to work but don't know how to approach it beyond just severing completely.

19:21So I think there's a broad range. I mean, you mentioned earlier that you sort of had conflicted feelings about this topic as you were reporting in part because like you kind of it seems like you kind of went from the experience of thinking about it in terms of like what it would mean for you to cut off contact with people in your life to like then having a child and thinking about what it would mean for a child to make a decision like this, whether it's cutting off contact with you or other people in the family. And so I guess I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit more about like where you landed with all of this.

19:56Like, do you think that I know it's kind of it's tough because we try to be neutral in our pieces. But like, do you think that the fact that family estrangement is on the rise? Like, is it a sign of a healthy culture, a an unhealthy one, maybe a mix? Yeah, I mean, it's really hard. It's a hard subject. I think like in a lot of cases, the people I spoke to who had cut ties seemed like a weight had been lifted from their shoulders and they were able to kind of get on with their normal life. But then I did speak to some parents and, you know, the grief that a parent feels when a child cuts them off is a lot.

20:37And it's a really difficult kind of, a complex kind of grief because it's not like their child is dead. It's just that they won't speak to them, you know, so they can't really mourn their child. They're just in this kind of, you know, extended grief that doesn't have a lot of closure. And then, yeah, I mean, from the parent perspective, when you raise a child, you obviously put in so much time, so many years and late nights and, you know, colds and everything. And then to lose that relationship when you're older, I think there's a sense of identity loss that comes with that. So I think that is really difficult.

21:17What I landed on is, you know, if there's, I generally think that cutting off contact completely, I didn't see a ton of positives to that after reporting this piece. Um, there were some, like, some people I spoke with seemed relieved, but they also still felt a lot of sadness and, um, a sense of loss. And I generally think that if there is any way to have a small amount of contact, it would be better than no contact at all. But obviously, it's a very personal decision. Do you see this as something that is probably going to get worse over time? I mean, we were talking earlier just about like the kind of like political fights that are happening now and the fact that it seems like things have reached like a fever pitch.

22:04And so I guess I wonder whether you think we're going to be continuing to see this sort of conflict and people deciding to go no contact, like if it's just inevitable that this is going to become a more ubiquitous topic or if there's any way for our family bonds to become more sacrosanct in the way that they used to be. I mean, the short answer is, I don't know, but it doesn't seem like it's helping to have so much acrimonious public debate constantly that will always bring up issues between people. I think something that Josh Coleman said that has stuck with me was that he always advises parents who are trying to make amends to write a letter of apology that is very, very specific to the child and kind of trying to really get in their headspace and recognize what the grievances might be.

22:56So I think that would be a good place to start. But yeah, I don't know in terms of where we're heading. It's, yeah, it's a difficult time. That's interesting that Coleman recommends for parents who want to kind of rekindle bonds with their kids to confront the subject head on. I would have thought that like, like just thinking about my own experiences, kind of dealing with friends and family members with different kind of like warring political beliefs. It's almost like the things that keep us together most are, you know, like our mutual love of things that have nothing to do with politics. It's like, you know, we both really care a lot about basketball or like you can almost imagine a strategy, too, that's just like, OK, we're just not going to talk about, you know, the vaccine stuff at all.

23:41And maybe we won't see each other in person because you're worried that I'm unvaccinated and I might give you COVID. But like, let's talk on the phone about, you know, Madonna. If we both really love Madonna. Yeah, I mean, that would be one approach that could work. Just stick to Madonna, nothing else. Yeah, maybe a lot of dinner conversations for Thanksgiving about Madonna. That could be the way to do it. Yeah, stick to the weather and your health. So I'm wondering if you could talk about your own experiences navigating conflict with your family or close loved ones. It sounds like you haven't had the experience of going no contact, but I feel like everyone has had some experience of dealing with a family member who has a different worldview than them.

24:29And, you know, even just thinking about the fact that, you know, you were recently pregnant and there are a lot of boundaries that people often set during pregnancy in terms of like, you know, I can only see this person if they're vaccinated or if they can commit to, you know, stopping smoking. So I'm just curious if this is something that you've had to navigate yourself. Yeah, I mean, I think that's true that when you have a baby, there are all sorts of rules that suddenly become very important to you that other people might not necessarily respect. We had a difficult birth and a long hospital stay.

25:03And when we came out, we had to be very, very careful and isolated for a couple months. And it was really hard to tell friends that they couldn't come over into our actual house to meet the baby. most of them were very respectful of that and having to ask relatives to get vaccinated. But I can imagine that that would be really difficult if they refused flat out because I wouldn't allow them to come if they said no. Have you had any experiences navigating those kinds of conversations? Totally. I mean, I think during the pandemic, there were a lot, even just like with, like, I didn't have anyone in my family who like refused to get vaccinated, But I do think that there were different standards in terms of like, did you get this vaccination versus this other shot?

25:50And, yeah, I mean, just politically, there's a lot, too. I think listeners of the podcast know that my family's pretty hardcore when it comes to Trump and MAGA stuff. And it's interesting because, like, I mean, I'll just be honest. I find the concept of I think that when someone goes no contact because, you know, they've experienced like physical abuse or emotional abuse, like just something really terrible like that. It totally makes sense to me. But I do feel like there has been this creep of, you know, people making these pretty massive decisions based on what seemed to me to be almost like simple political disagreements.

26:30And I feel like I'm also surprised by like how often someone and I might not have the same political worldview, but like there actually is like a decent amount of overlap. And so I always find the conversations I have with people who, you know, people in my family who don't agree with me to be really useful. It just like helps me understand, you know, how people are feeling about things like actual people. I will say that their their distaste for the New Yorker, though, can can grind my gears a bit. So my dad and I will sometimes fight about how, you know, like I shouldn't work here and I should instead work at Fox News or the National Review.