In short
Gina Raimondo discusses AI’s political and economic impact on American workers, arguing the U.S. must pair AI advancement with job-transition policy, safeguards, and updated government incentives rather than moratoriums.
Guest backgrounds
Gina Raimondo is a former Rhode Island governor (first woman governor) and former U.S. Commerce Secretary. She previously had a business career; her father worked for decades in a Rhode Island watch factory (Bulova) before job loss during offshoring.
Key claims
AI anxiety is driven by uncertainty and rising costs (e.g., data-center electricity/water bills), not just abstract fear. The “China shock” showed job loss can come before job gains; retraining programs like Trade Adjustment Assistance were bureaucratic and required workers to prove jobs moved overseas. Raise Us (with Eric Holcomb) aims to coordinate company, government, and philanthropy levers for retraining/redeployment and unemployment/self-employment reforms.
Notable examples
keeping unemployment insurance while starting a business; retraining call-center workers; using a “Committee for Economic Development”-style plan after WWII; coalition includes Amazon, OpenAI, Anthropic, Microsoft (no governance roles).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOGina Raimondo: An Unconventional Voice
1:00 to 1:55
Exploration of Gina Raimondo's unique political perspective on AI and prosperity.
“Participating stores only while supplies last.”
Gina Raimondo: An Unconventional Voice
2:24 to 4:00
Exploration of Gina Raimondo's unique political perspective on AI and prosperity.
“Evan, why did you want to talk with Gina Raimondo?”
Understanding Public Perception of AI
4:00 to 6:26
Discussion on the disconnect between AI creators and the public's view on technology.
“Evan, tell us a little bit about how Gina's own story and her entry into politics has kind of turned her into a different kind of voice.”
Lessons from the China Shock
6:26 to 10:32
Gina discusses lessons learned from historical job losses and the importance of support during transitions.
“I think the people closest to the technology, you know, people in Silicon Valley inventing the technology, et cetera, just are blown away by how exciting it is.”
Capitalism and AI: A Delicate Balance
10:32 to 14:01
Exploring the relationship between capitalism, innovation, and the consequences of rapid technological change.
“And the fact of the matter is that didn't happen.”
The Pitfalls of Capitalism in Tech
14:01 to 16:41
Learn about the collective action problem in capitalism that led to America's semiconductor decline.
“Capitalism is still by far, in my judgment, the best system.”
Innovative Approaches to Workforce Challenges
16:41 to 19:06
Discover the three levers needed to adapt workforce policies in an AI-driven economy.
“Maybe there needs to be incentives for companies to redeploy instead of fire people.”
Company Incentives and AI Layoffs
19:06 to 23:03
Examine the current incentives for companies to lay off workers in the AI era and potential solutions.
“How do you begin to address those incentives where they see it differently?”
Public Anxiety Over AI
24:23 to 28:05
Understand the public's fears about AI and ways to address job security amid technological change.
“People feel as if AI is not coming out as a way of improving their prospects.”
Addressing AI Anxiety and Job Creation
28:05 to 36:36
Gina Raimondo discusses the urgent need for government and businesses to collaborate on job creation amidst AI-driven changes.
“Personally, I believe, and I don't work for any of these companies, obviously, I think it's a mistake by them to try to fight every stitch of regulation.”
Show all 13 chapters
The Political Message of Prosperity
37:52 to 42:08
Discussion on how the Democratic Party can reshape its message to focus on prosperity and the American Dream.
“One of the taglines for your organization, Raise Us, is, as you put it, to build an America where AI-driven progress fuels prosperity.”
The Impact of Money in Politics on Democracy
42:08 to 43:23
Explore how money influences political discourse and trust in government.
“How much at this point is money in politics making it harder for a rational, robust conversation about America's best interests to be heard?”
The Role of Companies in Preserving Democracy
43:23 to 44:08
Discuss the responsibility of successful companies in maintaining democratic values.
“a company in America that hasn't benefited from our democracy.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, Autobotulinum Toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.
0:31Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.
1:24and only at 7-Eleven. Ballad through 825-26. Participating stores only while supplies last. Visit store for full terms. This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Your job, your kids, where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify.
2:05Gina Raimondo:Welcome to The Political Scene from The New Yorker, a weekly discussion about the big questions in American politics. I'm Susan Glasser, and I'm joined, as always, by my colleagues Jane Mayer and Evan Osnos. Hey, Jane. Hey, Evan. Hey, Susan. Good morning, guys. So great to be with you. This week, in fact, we're back with our summer interview series. Last week, Jane sat down with former DOJ prosecutor Andrew Weissman to talk about the politicization of the Justice Department and how Democrats might just hold Donald Trump accountable, if that is, they take back Congress this fall. Today on the show, Evan is talking with former Commerce Secretary and Rhode Island Governor Gina Raimondo about the politics of AI, her ideas for how American workers can navigate this transition, and thinking big about the American economy and our politics.
3:01Evan, why did you want
3:03Gina Raimondo:to talk with Gina Raimondo? Well, you know, I think every American wakes up in the morning and thinks, I want to talk to the Commerce Secretary. No, that's not what they think. But actually, this happens to be a really interesting person who sits at the intersection of a bunch of different issues that we really do talk about all the time. Things like, what is the future of artificial intelligence? And what does AI mean for the future of the American worker? And, you know, she's had an interesting history. She was the first woman governor of Rhode Island. She then came along and at one point, 60 minutes said, she's come out of nowhere to become a rising star of the Democratic Party.
3:39And she is focused on this big question, which is, how do you make sure that the AI revolution does not leave American workers behind the way that moments like the China shock did a generation ago, in which all of a sudden all these jobs went overseas and were living in the politics that created?
4:00Gina Raimondo:Evan, tell us a little bit about how Gina's own story and her entry into politics has kind of turned her into a different kind of voice. I feel like all of our politics right now is all about the ideas of the progressive left. And what I find interesting about Raimondo, she comes from super deep blue Rhode Island, but it's a different kind of Democratic Party she's talking about, one where it's prosperity and not just affordability that kind of informs and shapes her. She, like all of us, was shaped in the Reagan era. What about Gina makes her different than the conversation? Yeah, well, I think you'll hear on a personal level, there's an interesting story there.
4:38Her father lost his job after a long time working in a factory. So then she came along, she went into business. Gina Raimondo actually had a business career and now finds herself in a Democratic Party in which that experience doesn't sit so cleanly in the moment of real suspicion with corporate power, with finance power. And so one of the things she's trying to figure out is how can the Democratic Party talk about not just making things more affordable, but also saying to people, look, we want you to prosper in this country. We want you, the average person, to make it. And that is a delicate kind of political task.
5:17Gina Raimondo:I mean, getting rich is obviously one of the things that Americans care about the most. So if the Democrats could figure out a way to say we can be fair, but we can also be rich, boy, they might hit the jackpot. But we'll have to see. I really look forward to hearing this conversation.
5:40Secretary Gina Raimondo, welcome to the show.
5:42Gina Raimondo:Thank you for having me. We're talking today about AI and the future of work and politics and how it fits into society. This is something that's consuming a lot of your attention these days. But I want to go back actually a few months. Let's go back 18 months ago. You finished your tenure as Commerce Secretary in the Biden administration. And since then, you've sort of been out talking to people. In effect, basically, people who are in the business of AI, but also talking to colleges, talking to economists, trying to get a feel for how this fits into people's lives and ordinary people. And what I want to understand is, where is the disconnect between what people are imagining this will be in our lives and how people are actually receiving AI right now?
6:26Yeah.
6:27Gina Raimondo:I think the people closest to the technology, you know, people in Silicon Valley inventing the technology, et cetera, just are blown away by how exciting it is. And they're in closest touch every single day with the possibility. And they're mostly only in touch with people who spend all day every day perfecting the technology, who are focused on the upside. Yeah. And not necessarily in touch with, I mean, literally in touch with, talking with, interacting with, being with, as you say, quote unquote, ordinary people or professors or whatever. And those folks have a, I'd say, a real mixture of excitement, but really leavened with a ton of nervousness and anxiety.
7:23Gina Raimondo:Here's a perfect example. So my co-chair, my new effort, Rezaas, is the former governor of Indiana, Eric Holcomb. So Eric, Governor Holcomb, and I were in Indiana a few months ago just talking to people. We spent two days. He convened, you know, former governor he knows everyone. He convened groups of people and small groups. And we'll come to this in more detail, but just so the people know, we're talking about a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization you guys have created to try to think about AI and the future of the workforce. Perfect. I couldn't have said it better myself. In any event, so we spent the day, I don't know, say we talked to a couple hundred people.
7:59Gina Raimondo:They would say things like, well, I don't want to miss out on the innovation that AI will bring. I just went to the doctor and scheduling was for the first time seamless. Yes, but. I don't want my kids to live in a world without AI, but I'm afraid. This data center is coming in. What's it going to do to my electricity? This is something you hear constantly. I'm going into debt to pay for my kids to go to college. What's their job going to be when they get out? So it's really a huge mix of anxiety with excitement. And when you talk to the people who are in the businesses of creating this technology and you say to them, hey, your message may not be coming across as clearly as you think it is, how do they respond to that?
8:45Gina Raimondo:It depends. Some of them react with frustration, like, well, why not? This is the greatest thing ever. Everyone just needs to start using it. Once they use it, they'll see it's the greatest thing ever. Other people say, you know, I get it. I hear that. You know, I was recently talking to someone who worked at one of the big AI companies, and she has two teenage kids. And she said, you know, it's weird for me because my kids are asking me, Mom, how can you be working to make AI, which is, you know, not good for the world? and she said, that's crazy to me because everyone I work with all day every day thinks it's amazing.
9:25Gina Raimondo:So it's really a mix, Evan. And what I think is, and this is my strongly held view, can't put the toothpaste back in the bottle. AI is out there. And by the way, we don't want to, right? We want to harness the good, but be intentional about having a plan and safeguards for the bad. So that question, the sort of the inevitability of it, is really at the core of this political moment. Because on the one hand, people say, well, we know it's coming. But then the question is, well, what is it? And at what parts of our lives do we want it to go and not go? I want to put this in another context for a second, which is the history of big shocks to the labor force.
10:06You know, you've talked about the fact that your father actually was working at a watch factory. I think it was at Bulova, the watch company in Rhode Island. He was there for decades. And then when U.S. companies started to ship production overseas, what we now call the China shock, he lost his job. You've said recently that you're afraid that the United States is making the same mistake that we made back then. What was the mistake that we made then?
10:33Gina Raimondo:The mistake was assuming the invisible hand would, in capitalism, take care of the disruption such that people who lost their jobs, like my dad and all of his friends and half of the community, the economy would, because that's what economies do, create new jobs for them so it would be okay. And the fact of the matter is that didn't happen. There were, of course, new jobs created. And this is very important to say. I mean, the U.S. became the global juggernaut in services and software. And our economy grew. And lots of people, probably including you and me, benefited from that. But... Yeah, before that, though.
11:21Gina Raimondo:My view, it is a matter of transition. And the job loss can come before the job gains. And it's also a matter of, quote-unquote, winners and losers. Like the winners were... Well compensated for what happened. Well, well, well compensated, right? I'm from Rhode Island, so I'll put it in that context. You know, Route 128 developed, lots of tech jobs. That was terrific. But all the manufacturing guys, my dad would always say, I needed a bridge to the next chapter of work. He was a very smart guy. He wasn't opposed necessarily to China manufacturing things. He was just like, what about me? What did he do at the company?
12:03What was his job?
12:04Gina Raimondo:I mean, he worked there for almost 30 years. He was a chemist. So he balanced the electroplating bath chemicals. I'm a humanities major. You lost me at chemicals and electro baths. But here's the thing that I find really interesting, which is in that moment, people would say, we're going to do retraining. We're going to take people who work in a watch factory. We're going to equip them for the new economy. And in practice, of course, very little of that worked out as people would have hoped. Have we taken a serious substantive lesson from that experience of retraining? And are we able to do it now?
12:41Do we know more about how to do it?
12:43Gina Raimondo:We're about to find out. You know, people can't see me. I'm smiling. We're about to find out. So I would say this. TAA, which is what you're referring to, is a big federal program called Trade Adjustment Assistance, which was designed to do exactly what you said. Take all the people in the Midwest and in Rhode Island and who lost the manufacturing jobs and help them transition. Very good idea. Horribly executed, horrifically executed, massively bureaucratic. The average person took about a year between when they filed a claim and when they got the money. It's a long time without a paycheck. Far too long.
13:23Gina Raimondo:And I think the biggest mistake was you had to prove that you were put out of work because of your job went to China. You, the worker, had to prove it. Yes. And that, I think, was actually the single most fatal flaw. So what I would say is, as they say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Having an important government initiative to help transition people I think will be absolutely necessary for AI. But let's not be dumb about it. Let's not say you must prove it was AI that caused you to lose your job, and let's take a year and a half for you to get another job. I also, I just have to say this.
14:00Gina Raimondo:Capitalism, I know you're a China expert and studied it, et cetera. Capitalism is still by far, in my judgment, the best system. Democracy, the freedom that allows people to have a new invention, raise risk capital, and go out on their own and maybe fail, but maybe succeed, is absolutely the way to go. However, in moments like these, when there's a massive gold mine and a gold rush, every individual company is going to put their blinders on and focus to get as fast as they can to the prize without regard to the consequences. By the way, I lived that painfully as a kid with my dad. I also lived it as the architect of the CHIPS Act.
14:47Gina Raimondo:Why is it that in just a couple of decades, America went from making, you know, 40 % of the world's semiconductors to making 0 % of leading edge chips? And that was because companies were doing what they thought was in their individual rational interest. Correct. And they were. It's a collective action problem, which is why I think there's a case. That's the point of it, yeah. It's a collective action problem, which is if any individual company didn't do that, it wouldn't have worked well. Today, however, and this is close to home because I worked on the bill, this country is spending hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer money to make up for those mistakes of 20 years ago when we let all the manufacturing go to China and Taiwan.
15:33Gina Raimondo:And today we rue the day that we let that happen because we're vulnerable as a national security matter because we buy all of our chips from Taiwan and China. So in that case...
16:11What's an example of the kind of thing that you're going to use these resources for that can begin to address the risks that people have in the workforce because of AI?
16:22Gina Raimondo:So the innovation, if you will, of what I'm trying to do is you have to do three things at once to make this stuff work. You have to get companies to change the way they hire and fire. You also need the government to change policies. Maybe there needs to be incentives for companies to redeploy instead of fire people. Maybe there needs to be new public social insurance. Maybe, you know, you have to pull that lever. And you also have to, we're using at-scale philanthropy to take some risk and try new things. When I was governor, when I was secretary, I did a huge amount of apprenticeship, job training, etc.
17:08Gina Raimondo:And there's also many, many, many small nonprofit efforts, really good, smart, earn while you learn or alternatives to college. But in my experience, it does not work unless the company, the industry has to be bought in, incentivized, change as a group at the same time. You might have nonprofits or philanthropy doing new innovative things at the same time as supported by government policy. So we're trying to pull all three levers at once at the state level to prove things can happen. For example, right now in this country, you lose your job. What's the first thing every American does when they lose their job?
17:50Get unemployment insurance.
17:52Gina Raimondo:Bingo. Fire for unemployment insurance. When you fire for unemployment insurance, there's really nothing that says, what are your skills now, Evan? You know, what job might you like to do? No assessment of your skills. And be a point guard. And be a point guard. And be a point guard. Number one, there's none of that. Number two, if, let's say you say, you know what I really want to do? I want to start my own company as a podcaster. The hell with the New Yorker. I'm going out on my own. If you start that company, you will be kicked off of unemployment insurance. So we are going to work with governors who will say, in our state, you can keep your unemployment insurance if you start a new business.
18:35Gina Raimondo:And also, there's another form of support called self-employment assistance, which has mostly been phased out. They're going to do that. we are going to start and fund a startup accelerator, really small business accelerator, in that state, and help the Evan Osnos of the world to use AI to start a company. To take a risk. Essentially creating a system in which somebody is not on the precipice where they have to stay in a fragile situation. Here's the key piece of the puzzle. As you mentioned a moment ago, the incentives for the companies right now are that if I announced that I was laying off 1 ,000 people in order to make my company better suited for AI, the markets are going to reward me for that, right?
19:25How do you begin to address those incentives where they see it differently?
19:29Gina Raimondo:So this is my great worry. And you're exactly right. You fire 1 ,000 people today. You claim it's because of AI. by the way. So far, I don't think anyone's been laid off because of AI, but it'll come one through three years down the road. Tomorrow, your stock price goes up. They're sort of using AI as a, call it AI washing, basically. A hundred percent agree. In any event, I think there has to be some government incentives. So we're talking to the governor of Utah right now. He's interested in potentially providing either a grant or a tax incentive or some kind of incentive to incentivize companies, maybe in an industry to say, retrain and redeploy.
20:06Gina Raimondo:Everyone you retrain and redeploy will help you out. At the end of the day, this has to be done at a federal level. And I am eyes wide open about that. You've spent enough time at the federal level to know what that sounds like. That being said, we can't wait four or five years. We have to get innovating right now. The other thing, Evan, that I'm trying to do, which maybe is a pipe dream, but I don't think so, So I'm putting together a large coalition of companies. So I already have 25 companies that have stepped up to be part of this. I will say, though, if some people look at the list and you have money from some AI companies, for instance, they have places like Anthropic that are supporting this.
20:47Does that create a conflict of interest? Do they say, well, do I, you know, are we using this to kind of brush away criticism of the actual risks we're introducing into the workforce?
20:57Gina Raimondo:You'd have to ask them why they're doing it. I don't think they're doing it for that reason. You know, one of the first guys that came to me about this issue was Andy Jassy, who's CEO of Amazon. He came to me and said, Gina, this is a national issue and I'd like to be part of something that solves it. So, you know, none of them is on the board. None of them has a governance right. I think they're doing it because honestly, they realize, look, Evan, Americans don't like AI right now. Yeah. Here's the deal. Trust breeds use, breeds diffusion. If you don't have trust, people won't use it. It won't diffuse.
Read the full transcript
21:37Gina Raimondo:We're screwed. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, anxiety over AI and the backlash that's been brewing. More with Gina Raimondo in just a moment. The political scene from The New Yorker. We'll be right back.
21:57If you've been enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and a review on the podcast platform of your choice. And while you're there, don't forget to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, on a botulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms.
22:31Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
23:01Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.
23:10Gina Raimondo:When you're 7-Eleven's hottest fire chicken sandwich, people think you're intense. Well, yeah, I'm hot! Oh, yeah, intense. Want to see if you can handle the heat? Then try me. With pickles or spicy mayo and jalapenos. Oh, and it's all just$4.99. That's a deal almost as hot as I am. Almost? Sweets? No. Spicy? See for yourself. $4.99 and only at 7-Eleven. Followed through 825-26. Participating stores only while supplies last. Visit store for full terms. This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Your job, your kids, where it's going.
23:52Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify.
24:16You were just talking about the fact that there is this very clear anxiety, and we see this in poll after poll now. People feel as if AI is not coming out as a way of improving their prospects. It feels like something that is coming at them. One of the ways we see this is in the debate around data centers. New York State, for instance, just passed the first moratorium on data centers. Do you get the sense that the opposition to data centers is about the buildings themselves, or is it about something deeper and more abstract?
24:48Gina Raimondo:In the case of data centers specifically, I think it's quite specific. People cannot afford for their electricity prices to go up or their water prices to go up. I think it's really that simple. You know, I mean, people are stretched. I don't have to tell you. And you say, oh my God, I can't pay a penny more for electricity and water. And all of a sudden the bills are going up. And all of a sudden the bills. So that's clear as day. Beyond that, I think there's a view by the average American like, why should I pay that bill? I'm struggling. These are big, successful companies. My own view is people also are just generally scared.
25:30Gina Raimondo:It's this anxiety of the unknown. As you say, this is happening to me. What does this really mean for me and my kids? This is being put upon me. And that's why I've started what I'm doing, because you have some people out there just scaring people. Not going to be any work for anybody in the AI economy. Well, that's not very helpful. Well, I should point out some of those people were the CEOs of the AI companies themselves. Creating the AI, right. So you have that going on. But you don't have a lot of people saying, these are some concrete ways that we can help you make sure that you will have a job and job security in the age of AI.
26:10Gina Raimondo:So we will, for example, work with companies to specifically retrain and redeploy call center workers, a group of people at risk. We are trying to figure out ways how can we get folks from an AI vulnerable job to a manufacturing job. My point is my desire is to hold up some very concrete examples and hoping to then turn down the temperature. Because I will say I don't think it's good for America. I don't think the moratoriums are good for America. I don't think slowing or stopping AI. I mean, the solution is to do two things at once. Advance the technology with safeguards. We haven't even talked about safety.
26:57Gina Raimondo:And like a serious solution for jobs. I mean, part of the moratorium impulse is because people are looking at what's happening And they're saying, hold on, there are three or four applications for new data centers coming in. Clearly, our political infrastructure is not able to keep up with the scale of the investment, with the ambitions of the industry. So there's this mismatch between the – call it the sovereignty of the AI industry, how powerful it is, and the fact that our social infrastructure, the – you know, our rather beleaguered democratic process is not able to do it. And so the solution has been to say, well, let's close the door on it.
27:37Gina Raimondo:Listen, by the way, I agree with that diagnosis. I have a different antidote, which is hurry up and get the system ready. So one is slow down and look in certain circumstances, certainly as it relates to safety and deployment of models that aren't ready. I understand that. But really, I think we should use this as an occasion to modernize our government systems, which is what I'm trying to do with Raise Us. Instead of saying, stop the AI, I'm saying, let's become much more urgent and intentional about making our government work and our incentives for companies work so people don't have to worry so much about their jobs.
28:20Gina Raimondo:Personally, I believe, and I don't work for any of these companies, obviously, I think it's a mistake by them to try to fight every stitch of regulation. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's why I don't work for these companies. But it's like, guys, people are anxious. So instead of trying to convince them they shouldn't be anxious or trying to stop every stitch of regulation, why don't you lean into the solutions? It's true. When you talk to leaders of some of these companies these days, one of the things I often hear is that the reason this opposition has cropped up is for some nefarious reason. They say it's because some political actors are gaining from it or because somebody is trying to influence public opinion.
29:06But there's not a real grappling with the source of the anxiety. I'm interested in the fact that you call back. When you talk about this collective action problem, you say, look, there's the experience of the China shock to the labor force. But then there's another point in our history, which is the end of World War II, right? We had this moment where you had a bunch of GIs coming back from service overseas. And the problem was what? And then ultimately, what was the solution they came to?
29:33Gina Raimondo:Yeah. So the war was ending. There were millions of GIs coming home and business leaders, not the government. Franklin Roosevelt was in office, not necessarily always hospitable to big business. Business leaders said we could have a recession or high unemployment because we have all these GIs coming home. They need jobs. There are more of them than there are jobs available. At the same time, manufacturing demand was declining because war demand was declining. So the CEOs of the then biggest companies, which was Studebaker, Dow Chemical, Goldman Sachs, they got together, business led, and they created something called the Committee for Economic Development.
30:16Gina Raimondo:And what they did was they made a plan, which is what I'm trying to do. Let's literally make a plan. We have these many available jobs in the U.S., in these industries, in these geographies. It was very locally focused. We have this many GIs coming back. What do we have to do to stimulate more job creation? And it was stunningly successful. And so that's why now, you know, I have to say, you asked me, are these AI companies just giving me money to, you know, make themselves feel, improve their reputation. I don't know. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. And what I'm suggesting to them, and so far, the ones who have stepped up, you know, Amazon, OpenAI, Anthropic, Microsoft, I've said to them, stop just fighting the regulation.
31:04Gina Raimondo:Be part of a solution similar to the Committee for Economic Development. Because I will tell you, agents don't buy things. Agents will not buy things. Human beings need money in their pocket. And I will also say, if we have the best chips and the best models and the biggest data centers and a 15 % unemployment rate in this country, we will not win this AI global competition. Everyone is, oh, we can't have regulation. We have to beat China. Let me tell you, you know who would be the happiest man? Who? You know the answer. Who's the happiest man in the world if we have double-digit unemployment rate?
31:41Yeah. Xi Jinping would love us to be eating ourselves a lot.
31:44Gina Raimondo:So let's not be so stupid. So, but here's the thing. I mean, the leaders that you were talking about of people coming out of World War II, people at companies like Studebaker who said, you know what, we're going to take on this role. We're going to try to formulate a solution. We're going to do it in cooperation with the government. Frankly, there was much higher confidence from the public back then in our corporate leadership and in our political leadership. You know, you've been in the business world. You've been in government. It is a moment when people are suspicious and they say, can we trust the solution that's coming out of it?
32:18Gina Raimondo:It's fair. It is fair. I've been in business. I've been an elected official. I've been in a cabinet secretary. There's a lot of reason for the skepticism. Okay? Let's be honest. Like, there is corruption. There is too much money in politics. There's a lot of reason, this epic income inequality, a lot of reason for skepticism. It's not a reason not to try. So when I walk around the little office of Raise Us, my motto is show, don't tell. Like, let's just put, we launched about a month ago. Hopefully, six months from now, we'll be showing examples. Well, one of the examples that I'm interested in is for people who are coming into the workforce, very young people.
33:04I mean, we hear it anecdotally. I'm sure you do as well as I do that you hear about your young nephews and cousins who are having trouble getting jobs. I live in Maryland. There is a program in the state of Maryland that is about trying to rekindle some of the spirit of national service. I mean, this is a program that has been ailing during the Trump administration. He did away with AmeriCorps, which had been the kind of leading edge of American national service. But in the state of Maryland, there is an effort to try to bring this back, to try to do more. Is there a place where AI and the desire for young people to be of service in some kind, which is a hunger you see reflected in surveys all the time, to be part of something bigger than themselves?
33:46Do these two ideas have an overlap?
33:49Gina Raimondo:Yes. And I can say we are partnering with the governor of Maryland to expand and improve that year of service. So I think there's a hunger. By the way, the numbers are pretty clear. Unemployment rate among people in their 20s is higher than it's been in a long time. The labor market for, I say kids because my daughter's 22, for young people looking for a job, it's really tough. And so number one, once again, we have to get companies to realize, listen, guys, listen, Mr. and Mrs. CEO, it might feel good for you today to cut in half the size of your analyst program. But I'm here to tell you, if every company in America does that, and we have 20 % unemployment rate among people in their 20s, that is not an American economy that you want to do business in.
34:44Gina Raimondo:So, like, resist the urge to do the short-term easy thing today and continue to have these analyst jobs. But your question is also, okay, service jobs. Why can't someone who's my son, he's 19, you know, when he gets out of college, for example, get a job in a year of service in a company? Right now, a lot of the Maryland jobs are in nonprofits, which is fine. but in a company that would lead him to get AI skills necessary for a job and maybe lead to a job. And I think we have to get into the business of those sorts of creative solutions.
35:27We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, the politics of AI. More with Gina Raimondo in just a moment. The political scene from The New Yorker. We'll be right back.
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36:42Gina Raimondo:When you're 7-Eleven's hottest fire chicken sandwich, people think you're intense. Well, yeah, I'm hot! So, yeah, intense. Want to see if you can handle the heat? Then try me. With pickles or spicy mayo and jalapenos. Oh, and it's all just$4.99. That's a deal almost as hot as I am. Almost? Sweet? No. Spicy? See for yourself. $4.99 and only at 7-11. Valid through 825-26. Participating stores only while supplies last. Visit the store for full terms. This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Your job, your kids, where it's going.
37:25Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify.
37:49Let's talk about politics for a second. A question about the Democratic Party's message to the public. One of the taglines for your organization, Raise Us, is, as you put it, to build an America where AI-driven progress fuels prosperity. That word jumped out at me, prosperity. That's not a word you hear a lot of from the Democratic Party these days. It's often about affordability. It's about inequality. But you don't hear the Democratic Party say what the Republican Party is essentially saying, which is, you know what? We're going to help you get rich. We're going to help you prosper. Is that an idea that is in some ways out of reach of Democrats today?
38:29Or is there a language that would say to people, because look, you know, I write about inequality in America. I'm conscious of the fact that the American mind is sort of of two views. One, it says I resent people who are very, very rich. And at the same time, I might want to join them. So is there a way for a political party, for the Democrats today to speak to both halves of that mind?
38:50Gina Raimondo:My own view is that Americans are fundamentally strivers and very work-obsessed. We find our meaning in our work more than many other countries. It's part of who we are. And as you say, even if you're not rich, most people want to be. Now, younger people are saying, but what's the point? I'll get some gig economy job. I'm never going to be able to get rich. I'm never going to be able to own a home. And so they're dropping out or opting out of that. They think the American dream is a fake thing. And my own view isn't to kind of pander to that, but it's to make the American dream real for them. I really think most Americans just want the same thing.
39:38Gina Raimondo:Like most people want a family, want to be able to take care of their kids, want their kids and family to be safe, want a decent job, want to be able to afford the rent, and want to know that if they work hard, they could do better in their career. This idea of work as more than just a paycheck is really a big fact. And in some ways, it was one of the, from my perspective, one of the core misunderstandings in Silicon Valley was people would say, you know, look, just accept the good news that when AI comes, you're not going to have to work. You're going to get your universal basic insurance or whatever it was.
40:14Where is that proposal now? Has that been – do you still find people saying that part of the solution or what?
40:21Gina Raimondo:Yes, precisely as you say. A lot of folks who I know in Silicon Valley say, oh, it's going to be so wonderful. There'll be so much. You can just stay home and get a check. Raise Us is open to all kinds of creative ideas, but we are not open to universal basic income. Because my strongly held view is that work is more than a paycheck. It is dignity. It is purpose. It matters. And so if a CEO says that to me, I would say that's a cop-out. Because here's the thing, Evan. How is it that we are so smart that we can create the best semiconductor chips in the world? I know a lot about chips. The chips that NVIDIA and AMD and Amazon's designed, this is hard to do.
41:09Gina Raimondo:And to make them. American companies curing cancer, what companies do every day. What's my point? My point is when we put our mind to it, man, we can do it. So what I'm saying to the people of America, to the policy leaders of America, to the CEOs of America, if we put our mind to getting through this transition, we will create new jobs, figure it out, figure out a solution to having entry-level jobs available and continue to be profitable. I think that prospect is attractive to people. But I can also tell you, I think just going around the country talking to people about their mood, their feeling at the moment is, do I have a hand in that?
41:52Do I have a voice in that? And frankly, when they look at that stage, that inauguration stage in 2025, where the president of the United States is accompanied by some of the most powerful technology leaders in the country, they say, can I really be heard when they have that much of a voice? How much at this point is money in politics making it harder for a rational, robust conversation about America's best interests to be heard?
42:23Gina Raimondo:It's the root of much evil. It's always been a problem. You know, 50, 60 years ago, people said the number one, two and three priority in politics is money. There's always been special interest. It's off the charts now. and it's seriously eroding people's trust in government, actually the ability of government to work. You wrote in your recent piece, which I loved. So you're the one who read it. I'm the one. I read every word, by the way. It was a long treadmill ride for me on that, just so you know. But in the end, you said something to the effect of the country that's going to win in the AI competition isn't the one that will insert AI into every aspect of life.
43:05Gina Raimondo:it's the country that will figure out how to make these decisions without being overly influenced by ideology, corruption, etc. That ought to be us. And if our democracy isn't yielding that result, we need to change the way we're doing this democracy to yield that result. There's not a company in America that hasn't benefited from our democracy. The reason these companies are big and successful and well capitalized is because we have a rule of law, we have an excellent court system, we have publicly funded research, we have an excellent immigration policy, we're like the magnet for the world's most brilliant people.
43:50Gina Raimondo:We are at risk right now of losing all of that. And that's just not right because every single company benefited from that, so they should have an incentive to want to preserve it. We are out of time today. We have more to talk about. I hope you'll come back to the show. Gina Raimondo, thanks so much for joining us. Yes, I love being with you. Thanks for having me. This has been The Political Scene from The New Yorker. I'm Evan Osnos. Next week, Susan Glasser sits down with General David Petraeus for the final installment of our summer interview series. You won't want to miss it.
44:28We had research assistance today from Alex D 'Elia. Our producer is Nora Ritchie. mixing by Mike Kutchman. Stephen Valentino is our executive producer. Our theme music is by Alison Leighton Brown. Thanks so much for listening.
From the publisher
The Washington Roundtable’s Evan Osnos interviews the former Commerce Secretary and Rhode Island governor Gina Raimondo about a problem she’s been working on since she left the Biden Administration: how to make sure that the A.I. revolution does not leave American workers behind. Drawing on her father’s experience of losing his factory job in the wake of outsourcing to China, Raimondo warns against repeating the mistakes of the past and argues that the U.S. needs a plan to help workers navigate the A.I. transition. “We can’t put the toothpaste back in the bottle. A.I. is out there,” Raimondo says. “We want to harness the good, but be intentional about having a plan and safeguards for the bad.” She also discusses why Democrats should focus not just on affordability but on the politics and promise of prosperity and the American Dream.
This week’s reading:
“A.I. Is Now a Major Election Issue,” by Benjamin Wallace-Wells
“If A.I. Takes the Jobs of Young People, How Will They React?,” by Jay Caspian Kang
“What Does the Humbling of Leopold Aschenbrenner Mean for the A.I. Bubble?,” by John Cassidy
“Is D.N.C. Chair the Worst Job in Washington?,” by Ruby Cramer
“The Delusions of John Roberts,” by Margaret Talbot
The Political Scene draws on the reporting and analysis found in The New Yorker for lively conversations about the big questions in American politics. Join the magazine’s writers and editors as they put into context the latest news—about elections, the economy, the White House, the Supreme Court, and much more. New episodes are available three times a week.
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