How Donald Trump’s War on Iran Helps Vladimir Putin’s War on Ukraine

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0:47You're listening to The Political Scene. I'm David Remnick. Early each week, we bring you a conversation from our episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Ukraine has been fighting off the Russian army and the brutal calculations of Vladimir Putin for more than four years now, longer than the United States fought in the Second World War. Donald Trump has been reluctant at best about defending Ukraine since the start, and he's said that he'll withdraw American support unless Ukraine makes enormous concessions of territory.

1:33And over the last month, America's war in Iran has only strengthened Putin's hand. The oil crisis in the Middle East has raised the value of Russian oil exports. Again and again, Donald Trump threatens to pull the United States out of NATO, which also must really please Vladimir Putin, even if Trump can't actually do it on his own. Russia is now sending drones to Iran and has provided intelligence to be used against American forces. All of this was reported recently in the Kiev Independent, an English-language news site. The editor is Olga Rudenka, who founded The Independent with fellow journalists in Ukraine.

2:16I met Rudenka with some of her colleagues in New York late last year, and we spoke again recently. She was in her office in Kiev. Olga, it's very good to see you. How has life been for you? Well, it's gotten pretty tough in January. So January and February were the toughest winter that we've had ever. Tough because it's the most bombing you've seen in Kiev since the beginning of the war. It is by far the most bombing. And it's been, I mean, it's been this way since early 2025. Like, since early 2025, things changed dramatically for people in Kiev. But it's since, you know, a few months ago when Russians really succeeded in targeting the energy.

3:04facilities and we were facing blackouts and for many weeks we were on maybe like one, two hours of electricity supply a day, which is suboptimal, especially when combined with what was, I think, like the coldest winter in 16 years, something like that. Do you feel forgotten by the West, particularly now that the war in Iran has taken up all the headlines? I wouldn't say forgotten because, you know, we've been through this, obviously, with the October 7 attack, because that was the first time when we've experienced this attention shift. So I wouldn't say forgotten. I think everything that's been happening since Donald Trump took office and started his sort of peace talk process has been quite surreal for us.

4:04Yeah, forgotten is not a word, but sometimes I do see, I wouldn't say that necessarily I feel like that, but Ukrainians increasingly feel betrayed by the West, particularly by the US. Why more so now than before? Well, because, I mean, I want to be very, very frank. I think that a lot of things that the current U.S. administration is doing is effectively siding with Russia. And I think in the beginning of 2025, maybe spring 2025, in the Kiev Independent, we wrote an editorial saying that the U.S. has switched sides in this war. effectively. Because when you read what's happening lately, and especially, I think yesterday was the first time, even though we kind of, you know, had wind of this for a while, but yesterday was the first time when President Zelensky said publicly that the U.S.

5:08is only ready to provide security guarantees to Ukraine if Ukraine surrenders more ground to Russia. Even more ground than it has. Yes, yes. It is such an insane thing because it means surrendering to Russia the most fortified part of Ukraine. This part of Ukraine that Russia wants, that it hasn't been able to take in 12 years, this is now our security guarantee. This fortified belt of the Donbas of eastern Ukraine that is standing in between where the fighting is now and the rest of the country. And this is what Russia demands to get in order to sign any sort of peace agreement. And to hear now that the U.S., our ally, supposedly our ally, is making this a condition, it is insane if you think about it, because it is so not in the interests of the U.S.

6:10as well. When I would talk to Ukrainians two years ago, three years ago, they would insist that the only way this war ends, in their view, is with the return of all land that has been taken and an ability to join the EU and security guarantees from the West. There was still talk of NATO or some path toward NATO. And even when I speak to the most ardent Ukrainians now, the spirit of the conversation is very different. There's at least some sense of resignation. Disillusionment. Well, but disillusion, but also some sense that whatever resolution happens, there will be land that Russia will hold on to.

7:03at the very minimum Crimea, but probably parts of the east. And NATO probably is not in the conversation, although the EU may well be in security guarantees. How have you changed in your assessment of the way the war will end and what Ukraine will look like at that point? I think we have come a long way since 2022, when the idea of victory was associated very firmly with the return to the 1991 borders. This is how it would usually be called, which means the return of all the territories of Ukraine, including those that Russia took in 2014, which is some parts of western Ukraine and Crimea. now you will often hear although not from usually not from somebody like president zelensky but you would often hear some voices saying that the most important thing is to preserve ukraine's sovereignty and to preserve ukraine as a country that can rebuild itself but at the same time nobody is comfortable with the idea nobody's ready to be comfortable with the idea of Russia holding on to the Ukraine land indefinitely.

8:28I think the thinking is that we need to stop this now, but eventually those lands need to be returned to Ukraine, including Crimea. When you talk about the future of Ukraine the way you do, do you see it in a kind of timeline that's analogous to a place like South Korea, where South Korea is under the protection, in a sense, of the West, there's always a yearning for reunification, but it's obvious that the timeline for this has nothing to do with next week or next year. I think I learned in this four years that any comparisons are very imperfect. And although we tend to instinctively reach out for comparisons like this to South Korea, North Korea situation in comparison to other wars as well.

9:26It's a very treacherous thing. I don't think of it in those terms, no, not really. I know what the outcome has to be, but I'm not sure how we're going to get there. Like I do firmly believe that there will be a point when, for example, those lands will again be part of Ukraine. But I don't know when or how we'll get there but i have this instinctive sense and it's not me as a traumatized ukrainian you know it's not me just uh just not wanting to deal with injustice or something like this but it just as somebody who grew up at this intersection of russian ukrainian culture and who knows a bit of history and who knows uh ukraine and russia so well i have this instinctive feeling that we're going to arrive at the point where Russia is not going to be a threat that it is now.

10:20It's not going to be a power that it is now. And that injustice of 2014 and 2022 will be fixed. And I may sound very naive speaking about this, but I do have a pretty strong feeling that we'll arrive there. I just hope I will live to see that. When you were in my office last December with your colleagues, I just, as a matter of fellow feeling, asked how everybody was and how were your family and friends. And there was a really long pause. And it was very clear that people didn't want to go into very much detail. What affects you? For a very long time, I just couldn't make my peace with the fact that we have curfew.

11:11we have curfew now for four years and means that you can't be outside from midnight till i think it's 5 a.m now they have shortened it maybe it's four but you have this midnight as a cut of time by midnight you have to get home and you you plan accordingly if you're you know if i'm in the office i'm working late i i know that the latest time when i can call a taxi is like 11 15 or i can be detained if i'm outside and it's it used to it used to really another i'm not somebody who goes out at night uh i think i've been to a nightclub once on assignment and but turns out that you want to have this opportunity you want to be able to go on a on a nighttime walk around the city or you want to be able to uh stay late at work and to you know Take a 2 a.m.

12:04taxi home. And it used to really, really, I used to really feel the constraint of this on my freedom. And then I guess I got used to it. The war with Iran benefits more than anybody I can think of. Russia. Oil prices have gone way back up. the restrictions have been lifted. Russia is alleged to, and I think even in your paper, the Kiev Independent, there have been reports that Russia has provided intelligence to Iran. The United States is struggling. Iran itself, of course, is struggling. But Russia seems to be, ironically, at least for the moment, a winner in this. Yes, absolutely. And Russia is providing more than just intelligence.

13:02There were reports in the past couple of days that Russia is actually sending drones to Iran, which is, you know, Iran has played such a huge role in enabling Russia's war against Ukraine because it is a country that initially has provided this drone technology to Russia. Russia was first buying these drones from Iran and then they set out production in Russia. and now it is sending those same drones to Iran to help them out. And yes, Russia is a winner at the moment in this. I don't know how long this win will last, but they are. And, you know, what is also ironic in a dark way, in the dark sense of the word, is that this solution for Russia arrived just when everything indicated that Russia's economy was really beginning to feel the strain of the war.

14:03So we were looking forward to seeing what's going to happen further on in 2026 with, you know, will Russia economy finally be under enough strain for, you know, not, of course, not for the people to rise, because I don't think that's ever going to happen, but to, you know, at least maybe to feel some consequences and maybe this insane pressure that it is putting on Ukraine would subside. And then this, you know, this solution arrives with the oil prices and with the sanctions on Russian oil being lifted. So it couldn't have been better for them. Tell us a little bit more about the military connection between those two countries, Russia and Iran, and what the Kiev Independent has been able to find out?

14:54Well, Iran played a huge role in enabling Russia's work as Ukraine ever since 2022. So in October 2022, I think, was the first time when Iranian drones were used against Ukraine. And in the beginning, those drones were something that Russia was buying from Iran. But very quickly, they just set up production in Russia using the Iranian technology. And that allowed Russia to scale up the production so much that in 2025 alone, Russia sent 55 ,000 drones like that at Ukrainian cities. And we're talking cities. We're not talking frontline fighting. We're talking cities often far from the frontline where those drones were targeting everything.

15:42mostly civilian infrastructure, 55 ,000 in 2025. And those are drones that are made with Iranian technology, but in Russia. So now, when Iran is under attack, Russia is sending not just intelligence, as was reported, but reportedly it's also sending drones to Iran, because now it has this very large-scale production of those drones. So it is this exchange that now enables Iranian defense. And we actually interviewed, a couple of weeks ago, we interviewed Iranian envoy in Kiev. And it was an interesting interview because he was claiming that Iran is kaputin neutral in the war, that it is not a military ally of Russia, that it has not contributed to the war at all.

16:33So the whole interview is just his answer and then like a big chunk of text from us, just fact-checking why it's a lie. But yeah, it is a military alliance, and Iran has done a lot to enable Russia in its war against Ukraine. Russia would not be able to terrorize Ukrainian cities as it has been without Iranian help. Has the sense of Ukrainian abandonment by the U.S. increased with the war in Iran? In other words, there are reports that the Pentagon is considering diverting military aid intended for Ukraine and diverting it to the Middle East. From day one of this, we have been very conscious that this is a major risk for us because we are dependent on Western air defense systems.

17:29Ukraine shoots down most of the drones that are targeting Ukraine on its own, but it needs air defense aid from the West to take down Russian missiles that do a lot of damage. This is from what we understand, from what we know from our reporting, part of this bargaining that is happening now with President Zelensky offering Ukrainian drone technology to Middle East and to the U.S., actually, offering Ukrainian technology in intercepting drones that Ukraine has developed from scratch in these four years in exchange for getting air defense systems that can help Ukraine deal with Russia. ballistic missiles, which sounds like a reasonable deal.

18:16But unfortunately, as you probably know, President Trump snapped at this offer a couple of times publicly and saying that we definitely don't need help from Ukraine and we definitely don't need help from Zelensky. Is Ukraine in essence waiting for another U.S. president or does it feel that it's stuck with Donald Trump and that it has to find a way to accommodate his very particular character and ego because we all remember that session in the Oval Office where Trump and Vance exploded at Zelensky in a way that I've never seen and I've been doing this longer than you have I've never seen anything like it to say thank you except that there are disagreements and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong.

19:12We know that you're wrong. But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful. You don't have the cards. You're buried there. Your people are dying. You're running low on soldiers. Listen, you're running low on soldiers. Ever since, Zelensky, when he comes to Washington or he meets with Trump or there's some phone call, he bends over backwards in an almost embarrassing way to accommodate the possibility of another explosion or to avoid that. That must be talked about quite a lot in Ukraine, how to deal with Donald Trump.

19:58Indeed, it's every time when they meet again after that insane Oval Office meeting, every time they meet, you're watching, like, you know, is it going to happen again? Is it going to happen again? I can't imagine what it might be like for him and for the Ukrainian team to be coming to Washington for any meetings with Trump after that. But I think Ukraine has been trying to be accommodating and trying to be very sensible and trying to play to, you know, to use rational arguments, but also play to Trump's ego and emotions a bit. But the thing is, even though an explosion like that has never happened again yet, thankfully, I think the sentiment that caused it is still very much there.

20:50Here's something that always amazes me that I think a lot of people in the US administration don't understand. That it's not Zelensky who is an obstacle to signing an unfavorable peace deal for Ukraine. It's not Zelensky being stubborn and saying, I won't sign this, I won't sign this, I won't go for this. No, he does not have a choice. If he signs a peace deal that gives the bus to Russia, he will probably be out of office the next day. Because people are not going to accept it. Even with how exhausted everybody is, and everybody is so exhausted with the war, the majority of Ukrainians still don't want a peace deal at any cost.

21:34still don't want an unfair piece, too. So Zelensky doesn't have a choice that Trump, I think, thinks that he has.

21:45I'm speaking with Olga Rudyenko, the editor-in-chief of the Kiev Independent. We'll continue in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

22:08Politics is confusing. Governing is messy. But talking to each other about all this stuff, it should be easier. And that's where we come in. I'm David Green, the host of Left, Right & Center, where we gather each week to talk about what's happening in politics from every angle. Listen to Left, Right & Center from KCRW every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.

22:42This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I've been speaking with Ukrainian journalist Olga Rudenko, editor-in-chief of the Kiev Independent. We spoke earlier about what it's like to report on Russia's war on their country while living through it themselves. Now, that's an experience that most American journalists have never had. And yet other aspects of her story are very familiar. The journalism business is under political and financial threat in this country and many others. The Kiev Independent is called independent because there's no media baron and no oligarch controlling it.

23:19It was founded by Olga Rudenko and a group of her young colleagues who broke away from another paper, the Kiev Post. You were at a newspaper in Kiev and decided around 2021 that you needed more independence. Tell us that story, how the Kiev Independent came to be and breaking with the Kiev Post. Well, so by the end of 2021, I had been working in this newspaper in Kiev called Kiev Post for 10 years at the time. And I was at the time deputy chief editor. And it was a place that was pretty different from many other Ukrainian media outlets in the sense that it had enjoyed editorial independence kind of against the odds because it was not profitable.

24:17It was getting some money from its owner every month. But at the same time, the chief editor at the time managed to maintain the editorial independence of the newsroom. And that's not something that you take for granted when you work in Ukrainian media. Because if you are in a paper that is being subsidized by the owner, then usually it means that the owner dictates what to write. And by dictates, I mean pretty directly. and it was not the case with the Kiev Post and we were really enjoying this privileged position of being independent and then at the end of 2021 near the end of 2021 that started changing Why did it change?

24:58What happened? Well because a few years before that the paper changed owners and the new owner went along with the rules for a few years and maintained the independence of the newspaper and then I think his patients ran out because he kept getting phone calls from people very high up and the calls would be about the critical coverage on the paper. And I don't think he was in his core a big fan of independent journalism. I don't think he bought into it because he believed in independent press. and his patients ran out and he started putting pressure on the newsroom to tone down the critical coverage and to make some changes that the newsroom was opposed to.

25:51Not just the chief editor who was the main defender of the internal independence, but actually the whole newsroom was opposed to it. And then the owner, I think his patients ran out completely and on one day in November 2028, he just fired everybody, the entire paper, 50 people were fired effective immediately. And he initially planned to shut it down, but then he restarted it with a more loyal staff and is still active now. How does Zelensky, Volodymyr Zelensky, feel about a free press? We think of him in absolute contradiction to Vladimir Putin in so many ways, and that's true. But when it comes to the press, is he an advocate of and a supporter of a free press?

26:36That is a very interesting question. And of course, if you compare Ukraine to Russia and Zelensky to Putin, with that unfettering backdrop, Zelensky can seem like supportive independent press. But so first of all, all the things that I'm describing, the pressure that was being put on the newspaper, that happened under Zelensky, that happened under his administration. and so what you need to understand about about Zelensky is that he first and foremost he does not love criticism well nobody does but he comes from a background where he is used to hearing applause not criticism as a comedian he's used to hearing applause as a comedian as an actor yes he's used to that and one one sympathizes with that but as a president as a politician you don't get opposed very often.

27:30You get criticism, you get sharp questions and it is part of the job to be able to answer that. Even before the war, you could see at press conferences and his reactions to questions that were asked of him that he, to put it very simply, he had a very thin skin for that. Would you say that he's more or less comfortable with the free press than Donald Trump? I think there's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of similarities there. Yes. Well, Donald Trump calls the press enemy of the people. He uses that Stalin era phrase. He insults people directly and personally. He issues lawsuits against all kinds of press outlets.

28:21He manipulates ownership situations with CBS and other outlets. It's a fairly grim situation where press freedom is concerned on a comparative level in the United States. And I wonder, when we think of Zelensky, we think of him very often in heroic terms, certainly in comparison to Vladimir Putin. What's his attitude toward you? Well, I think, David, if you ask President Zelensky what he thinks about independent press, whether he believes that it deserves to be a central part of a democracy, I think he would say yes. And I think he wouldn't be lying. I think he actually believes that. But when it comes to executing that, I think for him, it's more like, I believe in free press in theory, but I don't want it to touch me.

29:19I should be untouchable for that. to actually be untouchable to independent press because I'm doing an important job here. And you guys are running around asking you questions and interfering with me. It's been nasty a few times. And that was even before the war. So then when you add to it, everything that happened after 2022 and the heroic, as you said, treatment that he has been getting from the whole world for him being the leader of the resilient Ukraine, When you add that component, it makes a person naturally even less welcoming of any criticism. So if you would have to guess how many interviews Zelensky has given to independent press in Ukraine since 2022, it's zero.

30:14Zero interviews to independent Ukrainian journalists since the start of the war. Four years. And there has been a handful of press conferences where journalists were allowed to ask questions. But some independent outlets were banned from press conferences or from briefings with his administration.

30:38And with us, well, there were situations when, for example, our journalist a couple of years ago asked him a question at a press conference. a question that was very important at the time about the quality of fortifications that were being built near the front lines. Fortifications on the front lines, the defenses. Yes, the defenses, yes, yes. In the areas where Russia was expected to advance next, there were very costly and highly advertised defensive structures being built, and there were allegations of they're not being very effective and there's maybe like some money is being stolen somewhere, you know, as it goes.

31:24So our journalists asked him a question about the quality of fortifications in this certain area and he got angry. He asked something back. He talked back. He, in the end, didn't give a very good answer. And he was clearly just so annoyed at the question. You can say that it's similar to how President Trump reacts, But he didn't go as far as calling out the journalists and calling him something. President Trump has threatened to cut off licenses for television stations through the FCC. Well, actually, so it's not, you know, it's not something that I think Zanetsky would order himself. but Ukrainian authorities have been known to revoke accreditations from journalists for, like, as punishment for their coverage.

32:18So essentially to work as a journalist in Ukraine now during the Marshall, you need a specific accreditation that is issued by defense ministry. And even we have seen cases with a couple of our journalists before where those accreditations were revoked or threatened to be revoked directly in response for critical coverage. And we were able to fight it back. Is anybody ever prosecuted or put in jail? No, I don't think so, no. There were other things, though. Law enforcement has been going after journalists sometimes, and some cases are, you know, provoked pretty loud scandals with, you know, surveillance, with things like drafting somebody for the military, if it's a male journalist, or just forcibly drafting them for the military as punishment for their reporting.