How Much More Can Federal Workers Take?

0:06Hey, Tammy. Hi, Tyler. It's good to see you. Yeah, it's good to see you too. So yeah, we're here today to talk about the shutdown, which I think it's already been a very, very hard time for federal workers. And I guess I'm wondering, you know, in your view, how much worse it's gotten. Like if you're a federal employee in the midst of this shutdown and you've been furloughed or maybe you've been laid off completely or you're working without pay, is this worse and more chaotic than what things were like earlier in the Trump administration when the first version of Doge was kind of wreaking havoc on the federal workforce?

0:42Or is this – would you say this is almost like par for the course at this point? It's very 2025 is the vibe. And I have to say some of the federal workers I'm in touch with are signal texting me emojis of shrug emoji, you know, which is sort of indicative of the sense of, yeah, how much worse can it be? You know, how much more can they do to me? And, you know, so I think in a way there's a little bit of a recapitulation of the start of the year of this uncertainty of like what's going to happen? Are there going to be more reductions in force, mass firings, all this stuff, the things that people were waiting for in February and March?

1:16And then in other quarters, it's a little bit of like, all right, this is another week in the course of this year. It's not so different from the way that OMB, the Office of Management and Budget, has been treating me this whole time. I know that you're talking to all sorts of people across the government, but I'm wondering if you could almost separate into categories like the kind of worker who was left at this point. Like, you know, like are these people who basically are, are they just the ones who are like kind of the most committed to public service? And they're sort of like, I know that this is a, you know, a tough administration to be a part of, but my life is public service.

1:51And so I'm not going to try to get a job using my skills at McKinsey. Are these people who have such specialized skills that they kind of can't go anywhere else? Are they young? Are they old? Like, what is like the profile of the kind of worker who you speak to most often? Yeah. Right now, if I were to be very sort of general about it, I might say there are like three buckets. One is, yes, the extremely committed, the people who, you know, on the one hand are saying, I am a federal worker for life. I want to do civil service. This is what I'm meant to be. And might also, on the other hand, have a little bit of mischief in them.

2:23Like, I'm not going to go. They're going to have to drag me out of here. I'm not going to let President Trump and Russell vote, you know, drag me out of my job. A second category might be people who really need the money and aren't sure where else to go, Especially if you're in an area where there are a lot of federal workers, the job market is incredibly tight. In a piece we worked on a few months ago, we talked to a worker who I think had applied for 75 jobs. She had done a very specialized task inside an agency on the contracting front and now was applying for like Costco, Trader Joe's, this sort of thing.

2:58So, yeah, I think that's a second bucket. And the third bucket I would say is, yes, older workers who are, you know, getting close to retirement. They want to make that 20 or 25-year mark so they can get their payout. So, yeah, I would say it's kind of along all dimensions. But it's exhausting, stressful. People are getting sick. It's been a hell of a year.

3:24That's E. Tammy Kim, a staff writer at The New Yorker who covers politics and labor. The government shutdown is poised to continue for its third week, with no clear end in sight. Thousands of federal workers have been furloughed or are working without pay. And the Trump administration is also seizing on this moment to weaken the federal workforce permanently by carrying out large-scale reductions in force, or layoffs that would last long after the shutdown is over. I wanted to talk with Tammy about how the shutdown is affecting federal workers day to day, how it fits into the Trump administration's broader attempt to downsize the government, and what this moment might mean for the future of public service.

4:03This is The Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggett, and I'm a senior editor at The New Yorker.

4:13So before we talk about what this all means for the workforce, I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about the shutdown itself and how we got here and why for the first time since 2019 the government has actually shut down. Like what were the conflicts that led to the situation that we are in now? Now it almost feels not that interesting in a way. We're so used to these shutdowns. But yes, it has been six years, so that is significant. So the basic impasse is that Democrats are saying that an extension of health care subsidies under the Affordable Care Act, so this is basically allowing poor and sort of middle class people to buy health insurance off of the exchange, that those subsidies are going to expire at the end of 2025, and that Democrats, with the help of Republicans, need to extend that so that more people are insured.

5:01And they're not going to budge from that position. And so that's what's causing the shutdown. It's been interesting because you would think, I think that people might feel resentment towards the Democrats. All right, like, you know, don't hold out on this because it's affecting the entire federal government and all of these services. But I think the Democrats in their, especially in their conversations with federal workers, have felt supported in this strategy of holding out. But that appears to still be the sticking point. I think in contrast to previous shutdowns, there's been very little dialogue between the parties and between minority congressional leaders and the White House.

5:37So I would say that's what distinguishes this period from previous shutdowns. That's interesting that people within the Democratic Party have felt supported by the federal workers who are, you know, kind of seeing their jobs be put on hold or who are being furloughed because of the shutdown. just given that I feel like a lot of the talk before the shutdown happened, you know, and we were all kind of waiting to see whether there would be a shutdown or not, the way that this happens, you know, every year basically. And then luckily a shutdown is typically averted. I just feel like all those conversations were sort of about how if there were to be a shutdown, the Trump administration would just use this to continue its firing of federal workers, which is exactly what we've seen.

6:15And we'll talk more about that later. But, I mean, do you think that that's true, that that was kind of everyone sort of knew that if the Democrats were going to stand firm on health care, that it would probably lead to layoffs? Yeah, it's interesting because technically, and I think the federal worker unions have made this point in court now, you're not really supposed to use a shutdown to be able to go through with formal reductions in force, the formal firing procedure for the federal government. The reduction in force has this whole really bureaucratic process with all these requirements, and it can't just be because, hey, the government isn't funded right now.

6:51And so that's being litigated in court. And so I think in a way because that seems on its face illegal, a lot of federal workers thought, are they really going to go through with these firings during the shutdown? And then maybe this kind of goes back to the point of like federal workers being in hell or in a Job-like situation already. They thought, well, all right, maybe they will do the reductions enforced during the shutdown, but they were probably going to do that anyway. They had it out for certain of these agency. So I think that maybe causal connection, you know, how strong that is, is part of the reason that maybe federal workers aren't feeling as angry about this.

7:26I think also, you know, generally, I would say federal workers obviously are kind of mostly Democratic and because of all the stuff that has happened this year are probably much more willing even than before to support the Democratic agenda. So yeah, before we talk more about the reductions in force, I'm wondering if we can talk about the kinds of sort of like categories of like ways in which federal workers are either seeing their jobs be put on hold or like I know that there's you have like the essential federal workers and then you have the ones who have been furloughed and then there's fee funded and federal reserve funded.

8:00But like I guess what is kind of the status of various federal workers at this point? Like you have the ones who are who the administration is like actively trying to just like fire forever. And then what about the other ones who are in more of a like a purgatory situation? So federal workers are sort of split between those who are considered essential and are therefore still on the job but not getting paid and those who are furloughed, meaning they're able to stay home and do whatever, also not getting paid. The essential worker category is interesting. I mean, it's sort of people— Is that like air traffic controllers?

8:31Exactly. It's like people who you would think, yeah, emergency workers, right? Like air traffic controllers, TSA, the National Guard, interestingly, who are being deployed across the country, military, all of those guys are considered essential workers. Are they always considered essential workers or is that like a definition that the administration gets to? Like, was the National Guard always essential or is that the kind of thing where Trump is like, they're essential because I'm using them in various places? So those categories, I think, have always been essential because they're sort of, you know, kind of law enforcement or safety type categories.

9:01But what's interesting is, for example, immigration court judges. Like in 2019, the immigration court judges were split between certain ones were essential because they were handling people who were in detention and you kind of don't want to keep people imprisoned longer than you have to versus, you know, normal immigration court judges who weren't essential. Now all of them are considered essential because deportation and detention are obviously priorities of this administration. So there is some flux in that category. And that's been interesting actually to see because I think you can see that, you know, throughout the Department of Justice and Department of Homeland Security, people who are working on that kind of immigration enforcement are definitely going to be considered essential right now.

9:38And then, yeah, the furloughed workers and then you mentioned fee funded and treasury. It's kind of complicated, but basically there are certain agencies that don't get their money through congressional appropriations. appropriations. So, for example, people who are paid out through the Federal Reserve money, like they can still go to work because that's coming from a different pot. Or going back to immigration, the part of immigration that does benefits, United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, that's fee funded through like paying for a naturalization application fee. So those people are still at work, although it seems like some of them are getting fired.

10:11So how many workers would you say have been furloughed? I think it's about 600 ,000, although that number is evolving. And of course, the firings will affect that. That is now, by my count, the majority of the federal workforce because of so many terminations and resignations since the start of the year. So it's significant. And when does this start to kind of inconvenience or affect the lives of, you know, like average people like you and me. I mean, obviously, we pay very close attention to something like this because it's part of what we cover as journalists. But like, let's I don't know, like my family in Arizona, like when are they most likely going to remember that there's a government shutdown happening?

10:54Is it like when they try to fly somewhere and their flights delayed because there aren't enough air traffic controllers? Or I mean, it seems like even in that case, it's the air traffic controllers are still working. But I think basically this question just comes from a place of like, we talk about the shutdown a lot. It's obviously a massive deal for the people who are experiencing the effects of the shutdown directly. You know, they're not getting paid. They're not able to work. But if you were just kind of like an average American who doesn't work for the government, when are you going to be confronting the consequences of the shutdown like most directly?

11:26Yeah. I think the air traffic controllers actually is an interesting example because they are considered essential, but a lot of them have been calling in sick because people don't want to work for free and they've already felt really badgered. So, yes, I think at airports we're starting to see some signs of trouble. I think the FAA has been trying to find enough workers to cover shifts. There have been reported shortages at a number of airports. National parks are closed in many places or their services are massively reduced. That's also true for the Smithsonian and other tourist sites in Washington.

11:59Then there are things that if you are poor or disabled, you might be seeing already. For example, the Social Security field offices, they are open, but the things they are allowed to do for you are very reduced. So depending on the kind of service you're seeking at a place like that, you might be in trouble. Over the weekend, Trump announced that he was directing the Defense Department to pay members of the military this week. And this comes after both Republicans and Democrats voiced concerns about active duty military not receiving paychecks on the 15th. Where is this money coming from? I know it's an interesting example.

12:33I mean, again, we can see where the administration's priorities are. And, of course, there's always a lot of concern around service members. So now it seems like for the military and also for ancillary agencies like the Coast Guard, they are going to be paid and that the money is going to be taken out of a sort of vague category of research funds. I don't know if that's research, you know, on particular weaponry and things like that or, you know, different aspects of scientific research that are housed within the military. But that seems to be now the pot that they're going to be drawing on. But even that, I think, is showing a lot of strain.

13:07They're trying to sort of cover themselves. Yeah. And then you mentioned the National Guard earlier. And of course, Trump is continuing to explore deploying them in various U.S. cities, most recently using the Insurrection Act as justification. And, you know, if he continues to do this while the shutdown is going on, will those guard units be paid? Will they be doing this for free? It seems like they're not going to be paid so far. I don't think that he's considering them under the active duty military category. And so we shall see. I mean, like most of the essential workers, they are just going to be praying that they'll get the back pay that they've been promised.

13:46But in the case of the reservist National Guard, I mean, this is a very sort of precarious category because in a lot of times they are being pulled out of regular employment to do this. You were talking earlier about being in touch with federal workers who have seen their jobs be affected by the shutdown. And, you know, I'm wondering what they're doing to get by. Like, are some of them looking for, you know, service jobs to do in the meantime while they are unable to work? If you're a federal worker, do you kind of try to have as much in savings as possible just for situations like this one? Like, I kind of wonder what, you know, how they, you know, anticipate these sorts of things and whether they're prepping for it all year, essentially, or whether it is kind of like a mad scramble for income.

14:28Yeah, there's definitely a range just because the federal pay scale is so fast from top to bottom. You know, there is a stereotype that federal workers, obviously, I mean, that's what Trump is kind of going on, that they are overpaid and lazy bureaucrats and that, you know, they just are sort of sitting on slush funds. But, you know, at the bottom of the pay scale, these are fairly, you know, modest incomes. And so for people who have families and tuition and all this stuff rent, it's very, very tight. Just I am in touch with a lot of federal workers from my reporting over Signal and Chad. And people have been talking about going to soup kitchens.

15:04And people are, some of the essential workers I'm in touch with are requesting kind of emergency work from home situations so they don't have to expend money on gas and parking. You know, it's getting tighter and tighter. We're already at, what, day 16? So I'm anticipating now to be a lot of, there's to be a lot of sort of hardship requests in different agencies for essential workers. And then for furloughed workers, yeah, to be relying on public services. They could, I suppose, in certain cases, apply for certain kinds of jobs. I mean, there are sort of like ethics constraints around what they can do.

15:36But, you know, that's difficult to do given that you don't know when you're going to be called back. Yeah, I mean, and also how long it takes to get a job. It's like by the time you, you know, get a job at the grocery store, it's like maybe the shutdown will be over since no one really knows. I mean, what you said about employees trying to work remotely just made me think about how we're really kind of seeing this terrible combination of a series of Trump policies. Like, you know, it's like you already lay off all these people. And so the workers remaining have more work to do than they did before.

16:08And then they also have to come into the office. And then you have this shutdown, which is maybe making it so that they have to do this work now with no pay. I guess, like, what are the other ways in which it's just become harder to be a federal employee? Like, even if your job isn't actively under threat, but just, like, the various things that Trump has sort of inflicted on them, you know, these past few months. Yeah. There's been so many changes to working conditions. I mean, one thing that's kind of overarching is kind of a surveillance culture where people being afraid to just sort of do normal things.

16:39So, for example, on Friday, there were a bunch of firings of people in the education department. I was in touch with a number of education workers who thought they were probably fired because they had read reporting that those units had been eliminated, but they actually couldn't confirm whether they were individually fired because they had been prohibited from accessing their computers or checking their email during the pendency of the shutdown. And so, you know, another thing where they want to check, but they're afraid because then their digital fingerprint would be on the device that they had checked.

17:11Just sort of strange kind of like Kafka-esque situations that federal workers find themselves in. I think a lot of also federal workers, they have lost their union rights. Their unions have been decertified over this time, over a million workers. And so, you know, sort of like who to call and what kind of rights they have, whether there are particular contractual provisions that would protect them even during the shutdown periods like this, that is all sort of a question mark. I know that's like an entirely, you know, that could be its own episode, the losing of the union rights. I didn't even really know that.

17:43But yeah, how did that happen? I mean, is that something that can Trump just decide, like, yeah, we're going to decertify your unions? Or did it happen because the reductions in force up until this point were so large that, like, do they have to be a certain size to have a union? Like, what's going on there? They've primarily been through executive order. And the way that Trump has done that is to say that because he's always using his sort of, like, wartime or emergency powers, right, to do various things. And so under that same logic, he has said, for example, we cannot do collective bargaining with X agency's workers because it would be a threat to national security.

18:19It would somehow, you know, undermine my ability to be the commander in chief. So that has been the logic in a lot of these cases for decertifying the unions by fiat. You know, all of this, of course, is being litigated. I can't even keep up with the number of lawsuits in the federal sector. But yeah, that's been a huge hit because, you know, different rights are obviously just like enumerated. You don't really even have to be a very active union member or a supporter of your union to have just relied for years on the kind of like bureaucratic structure that it imposes on your workplace. Now, nothing is there.

18:51Wow. Well, let's take a quick break. And then when we come back, I want to talk more about how the Trump administration is using the shutdown to shrink the federal government in a more long-term way. This is the political scene from The New Yorker.

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20:35So beyond the immediate effects on the lives of federal workers between the start and eventual end of the shutdown, we're also seeing further developments with a much larger restructuring of the federal government. So, you know, we were talking earlier about the way in which Russell Vogt, who leads the Office of Management and Budget, announced mass layoffs within the federal government. He announced this in a variety of places, but notably one of them was on Twitter or X, I should say, with vote tweeting out the RIFs have begun. So as of right now, the number being thrown around is 4 ,200 federal workers.

21:09We're speaking on Tuesday afternoon. So who knows by tomorrow? It could be much more than that. But, you know, you mentioned earlier that it's unclear whether Trump and the OMB even have the authority to do this. Can you speak a little bit more about the kind of legal question here? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll try to make this not boring, but RIF, reduction in force, is the sort of legal bureaucratic process by which federal workers, a federal workforce can be reduced. And it requires all kinds of different things by statute and regulation that, for example, like the Department of Education, if they're saying they only need, you know, whatever, two workers instead of 2 ,000 workers, they have to explain why.

21:46They need to make a detailed plan. They need to say, like, how they're going to fulfill their statutory obligations with that many workers, where those workers are going to be located, et cetera, et cetera. And it has to be for certain kinds of reasons. And when Trump and Russ Vogt started threatening, hey, Democrats, if you shut down the government, you know, if you don't cooperate with us, we're going to start firing people, the federal unions that remain immediately filed a lawsuit in California. And so it's because of that lawsuit and their contention that this actually is not the proper way to do a reduction in force that we know that 4200 number because then the government was made to tell the judge how many people they were laying off and why.

22:31Some federal workers have gotten notices now that say something like, due to the shutdown, you are being fired, which, again, that seems not quite legal. That's also never happened before, right? That's never happened before. Isn't that completely unprecedented to fire people forever? I thought that the whole thing was like we're, you know, we're laying you off temporarily so that we can save money during this time where we don't have a budget. Exactly. Right. So the furlough, that's normal. You know, a reduction in force, a firing for permanently, that is not normal. And so that is now sort of this question.