Inside Trump’s Artless Takeover of the Kennedy Center

0:28Hey, Katie. Michael Crawford, who defined the role of the Phantom of the Opera, just because something about the, like, openly sentimental, campy vibe that he brings to his performances, I think, like, that is aspirational for Trump in a way. I'm glad you mentioned Phantom of the Opera. I was able to, I'd, like, gone to it for the first time with my husband a few years ago. I think it was a birthday present to me because I, like, have always enjoyed Phantom of the Opera and had never seen it on Broadway. and like every time like the Phantom came on stage, people would like shout and kind of like jeer.

1:03And it was like the most vocal audience I've ever been a part of. That's wild. I have to confess, I've never actually seen the Phantom of the Opera and I was shocked when the tribute started and just like the rock drums came in. It's amazing. Was there a chandelier? There wasn't. Well, the Opera Hall has a chandelier and I was kind of like, is it gonna fall? I hope not.

1:28That's Katie Waldman, a staff writer at The New Yorker who covers culture, books, and more. This year's Kennedy Center Honors, the first under Trump's second term and the first under his chairmanship, looked very different from previous years. The ceremony was shaped by Trump's own tastes, from the event's production design to a lineup of honorees that included Kiss and Sylvester Stallone. And it came after a year of major upheaval at the center, with Trump firing much of the bipartisan leadership, installing close allies, and setting off a wave of cancellations from artists and donors. In addition to attending and writing about this year's ceremony, Katie has reported on how the institution has changed and what those changes tell us about Trump's approach to one of the country's most visible cultural platforms.

2:15So I wanted to talk with her about what stood out at this year's honors, what her reporting has uncovered inside the Kennedy Center, and how all of this fits into Trump's relationship to arts and culture. This is The Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggett, and I'm a senior editor at The New Yorker.

2:33So this past Sunday night was the 48th Kennedy Center Honors, which was the first under Trump's second presidency and also the first under Trump's chairmanship. He also assumed hosting duties, comparing himself favorably to Johnny Carson and saying that he would do a better job than Jimmy Kimmel would have. Do you agree with that? Just real quick. I do not. Okay, so we have a Kimmel stan in the house. I was actually reluctant to say that because I didn't want to be cast as a Kimmel stan. But like, I'll give it to you, Jimmy. You're either for Trump or you're for Kimmel. It's really just there's no in between.

3:06But for those listening who aren't familiar with the Kennedy Center Honors, what exactly is this ceremony and what has it historically represented? Sure. So the Kennedy Center Honors began in 1978. It is like the most prestigious lifetime achievement award for people in the performing arts in the country, or at least that's how it's billed. And every year there is a sort of glitzy, star-studded gala that is based at the Kennedy Center. And the night before, the president has all of the honorees over for dinner at the White House. And it's just sort of the highest wattage nights for DC. So this year's honorees were country singer George Strait, the glam rock band Kiss, Broadway actor Michael Crawford, disco singer Gloria Gaynor, and actor Sylvester Stallone.

3:57I'm happy to report that Tom Cruise declined an invitation to the honors. He cited scheduling conflicts. Of course. Which makes sense. He's probably like jumping off a cliff or something. In your piece, you seem to agree with Trump's assertion that we've had no group like it in reference to the people I just mentioned. What makes them unique in your mind? And are there any past honorees who you think it's helpful to contrast them with? Sure. I mean, just even thinking about last year, and I don't have the list in front of me, but I think it was Bonnie Raitt. There have been directors like Martin Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola, comedians like Steve Martin, Aretha Franklin, Carole King.

4:34just these real luminaries in their fields. And without taking anything away from this cohort of awardees, like Gloria Gaynor, I Will Survive, that's a great song. I mean, their name recognition is not quite at the level that one expects at this point from the Kennedy Center Honors. And I think really what defines this class of honorees is how closely they sort of adhere to one particular man's taste, that man being the president, Donald Trump, like Sylvester Stallone, the sort of violent boxer underdog figure, the sort of sturdy country type, the disco queen, the Broadway star. All of this felt like it was painting a composite portrait almost of like one sensibility, that sensibility being Trump's.

5:25Yeah, or it's like people Trump wishes he could be besides president. Yes. Yeah. Which is a weird element. Totally. When Trump took over the Kennedy Center, and we're going to talk more about that process and sort of the damage he's wrought on the center later, he characterized it as an attack on woke culture, which is something that we've heard a lot during Trump's second term that, you know, he's going after woke culture in academia and, you know, in the government. Do you think that this year's honors felt like a part of that attack? Or am I just focusing way too hard on the fact that, like, Sylvester Stallone was there and that's like a macho vibe?

5:59That's a really good point because one thing that you might notice looking back on the historical honorees is representation was a thing. Like in terms of artistic media, in terms of people's backgrounds, it was a diverse group. And here we have, you know, Gloria Gaynor is a woman of color and she's a woman. Everyone else is a white guy. And I don't think that was an accident at all. So you were actually at this ceremony. What was the vibe? Yeah. Well, it was very MAGA, honestly. And I hope I'm not just projecting what I expected to find, but I really think I came in there as someone who had grown up in D.C.

6:43and had a sort of set of expectations around the Kennedy Center. and I walked into the Grand Foyer and I thought, it did feel really different. The people there, it was this very sort of like clean cut, clean shaven, traditional gender roles, kind of homogenous crowd with some exceptions. But, you know, it felt like a young Republicans convention. The age range, there were some people from older generations, but it was a lot of young people. And there was a lot of excitement. I mean, people seem to be enjoying themselves. There was a lot of political talk, you know, for a festival of the arts.

7:21You didn't really hear a lot about music or dance. You heard people talking about what it was like living in D.C. during the Trump administration. You heard people talking about conservatives versus Democrats. So that was kind of my initial impression of the vibe. That's devastating just because I feel like one of the great things about kind of cultural celebrations like that is that it can sometimes be the only place where you don't have to talk about. politics. And it's like, I would hope that at like an Oscars after party, people aren't talking about whether, you know, we're still in a democracy, like feels like that would be like the one place where you can just talk about like how much you love to Nora.

7:57And so it's funny that at the Kennedy Center Honors that I guess partly because Trump has taken it over that like that has subsumed even just like the conversation of the people who are in the audience. Absolutely. Like it did not transcend the political situation at all. How was the menu? Oh, you know, I didn't actually get to try some of the snacks, but they did look pretty good. There was a steak salad served in a glass. And then there was a harvest bowl that had like microgreens and quinoa and some shrimp cocktail. Like no complaints about the menu. I did have some champagne. It was bubbly.

8:33That's great. Yeah. Vegetables, bubbles, those things aren't too woke for Trump. So we're going to take a quick break. And then when we come back, I want to talk about this year of upheaval. the Kennedy Center and what Trump's takeover has meant for the institution's finances, its staff, and its programming. This is the political scene from The New Yorker. We'll be right back.

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9:40So let's take a step back and talk about the year leading up to the honors, which you've described as one of the most chaotic periods in the Kennedy Center's history. I guess before we get into how the Kennedy Center has changed, I'm wondering if you can talk about its general kind of importance and relevance to American cultural life. And by that, I just mean like I'm very like New York pilled. So I think about like Lincoln Center. And I guess I'm just wondering like what kind of space in the culture the Kennedy Center has occupied up until this point. Like what kind of programming would you generally see there and how it sort of stacks up against other storied venues?

10:19Yeah, I mean, it's a great question in part because there are a lot of moving parts, and the image of the Kennedy Center is not exactly the reality of it. So, I mean, you have this kind of—its affiliates are the National Symphony Orchestra and the Washington National Opera. So there is this dimension of the Kennedy Center that is this high classical, very elegant programming, the kind of bipartisan thing that sort of your Republican grandmother and your liberal grandfather would both enjoy going to for an evening. And that part is the sort of cultural prestige, and it's something that D.C. is understandably very proud of, that you can get the Vienna Philharmonic and all of these international acts touring through the Kennedy Center because they know that it is like a valuable and sort of glittering place to descend for a night.

11:10And then you have the kind of, I wish I had a better word for this, but like the faintly derpy programming, like sheer madness that's been around since 1987 and, you know, will probably be around long after the United States falls into the sea. And sort of the crowd-pleasing fair where you take your children. And so there is that kind of populist arm, which Trump does seem interested in strengthening, although one could ask, like, is he not aware that it's already doing well? And, of course, part of that, too, is sort of popular programming in collaboration with the NSO. So they've been trying to partner with hip-hop artists and with, you know, John Williams score performances, things like that.

12:02Oh, so like one of those things where it's like we're showing Star Wars with a live score. Exactly. And you bring your kids. Yeah, yeah. I love when—I'm like such a sucker for that. No, same, same. And so there's this elegant part. There's this more crowd-pleasing part. And then the sort of under-the-radar but incredibly important to the Kennedy Center third arm is all of this kind of smaller programming. A lot of it was under the auspices of a now-sunsetted program called the Social Impact Team. And it would be supporting artists from marginalized communities. It would be sort of the smaller free programming at the Millennium Stage.

12:41It would be, you know, impressionistic dancing and acapella groups and local playwrights. I was talking to one person who told me that the Millennium stage was so popular that programmers would get a sudden message like, hey, can you make space for a Supreme Court justice who wants to discuss her book on your stage this week? You know, so it was an embarrassment of riches, a lot of it under the radar, but like very valuable to the Kennedy Center community. And so those three different aspects of programming all work together to create this sort of thriving ecosystem of the arts. And how involved or uninvolved has the U.S.

13:23government been in the Kennedy Center up until Trump took over? Like it's called the Kennedy Center. It's in D.C. I get that like, you know, Supreme Court justices would sometimes like do events there. But, like, is there, and I assume that some of the programs that are being put on are receiving, like, federal arts funding. But have we ever seen, like, the White House kind of be so interested in the Kennedy Center? Or should we see it as something that's, like, completely separate? Yeah. I mean, the answer is no. The Kennedy Center is a public-private partnership. And so it does get funding from the government.

13:55But that money is really only supposed to be used for physical repairs, not the performing arts part of it at all. And the president has this kind of ceremonial role. He puts his imprimatur on the honors every year, but is really supposed to or at least traditionally has taken a kind of backseat to the operations of the center. And so this is really, really different, the idea that the programming in the center is supposed to please or represent Trump, that the political agenda of the person in power should in any way shape what is on the stage at the Kennedy Center. And just to give an example of that, we've seen memorials for Charlie Kirk.

14:40We've seen town halls, I think, put on by News Nation. Oh, there was a conference about Christian persecution that was sponsored by CPAC. And those are the types of things that are at the center now that never used to be around. And how are the outgoing and remaining members of the Kennedy Center responding to these changes? I mean, like, what is it like for, has there been kind of like a mass exodus of employees? You know, I think it's a mix. I think at least 100 people have left. First of all, there have been many, many layoffs and many firings. It got, like, doged. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And then the people who could afford to quit, many of them did.

15:24I talked to one person who said, no one says, how are you anymore? They just say, you know, hope you're doing okay. Right? So even the small talk has changed. And I do think that people are trying to make it work. You know, curators are saying, oh, do you like country music? Do you like popular dance? Like, we can reach out to artists. We have these networks. We can try to cater to those tastes, and we know how to do it. But, I mean, one thing that Richard Grinnell, who is the president of the Kennedy Center, has said over and over is that no one is canceled. at the Kennedy Center, all artists are welcome.

16:05But the truth is that by firing the curatorial leads of many of the center's programs, he is putting his finger on the scale of who can appear there because the people who would book certain artists are no longer around to do so. I just want to go back really quickly to a name you mentioned, which is Richard Grinnell, who's in charge of the Kennedy Center. I feel like most people think of him as like the presidential envoy for Trump's like, you know, sort of like diplomacy in like North Korea and Venezuela. Do you have any intel to use a word that, you know, Grinnell probably deals with quite often on like why Grinnell?

16:49Like in sort of what it's meant for someone like him. Why Grinnell? This is the question on everyone's lips at the Kennedy Center. Even like Melania Trump or someone I would have understood like, oh, okay, he thinks like this is like a job for like a lady. Melania Trump like likes music. But like Grinnell just seems so random. Sure. Grinnell appears to have a kind of weakness for celebrity when he was coming up through the U.N. He brushed shoulders with Ryan Gosling and George Clooney. Afterwards, he started a PR firm and seemed to be interested in booking celebrities, although he was not so successful in doing that.

17:23And so it may be that he has this interest in showbiz that Trump has benevolently realized. But I think also this is a broader pattern of Trump installing people whose main qualification is loyalty. And you see this all the way down at the Kennedy Center that, you know, the new director of dance is not so much an arts administrator as someone who wrote a letter to Grinnell saying that ballet had gotten too woke. One of the new music programmers, Sammy Miller, basically came to Grinnell's attention because he wrote an editorial in the Wall Street Journal about how the left had politicized the arts.

18:01And many of the people in top administrative positions at the Kennedy Center now have personal relationships with either Grinnell or Carrie Lake or Trump himself. Wow. Wow. I've never had more follow-up questions during an interview. One thing that I want to talk about is just sort of the dueling narrative surrounding the organization's finances, which is something that you've reported on, because the current leadership cites record fundraising and corporate gifts and sponsorships and a sold-out opening night of the center's run of The Sound of Music. But then internal sales figures, and it seems like staffers you've spoken with have painted a different picture.

18:44So what is your sense of like how the Kennedy Center is doing financially? Like, is it in trouble? Is it thriving? Is it somewhere in between? Yeah, I mean, it's very hard to know because the boycotts are indisputable. People are not buying tickets. And some of the most readily available information that we have is that ticket sales are in the toilet. You know, they're moving popular shows like Spamalot or like Parade this summer from the Opera House or the Concert Hall into the Eisenhower Theater so that it looks like more people have attended and capacity is still quite low. They're not meeting their budgets.

19:22They're falling far short of their budgets, which is pretty unprecedented for the center. Normally, they do beat their budgets. And so we know that on the ticket side, they're really, really struggling. In terms of donations and contributions, that's a little bit trickier. I guess there's a world in which like people aren't buying tickets to go, but then more people are donating it because they support Trump's mission or because they feel like they need to make up for the lack of ticket sales. Like it could be like both narratives are true simultaneously. Yes, but it's also interesting that the people who seem to be donating, or I should say the corporations or the country, the countries that seem to be donating, don't seem to have an organic connection to the arts, which may also explain the patchy attendance at the shows.

20:06You know, maybe Cyberjet gives a couple million dollars, but no one at Cyberjet actually cares about the ballet. So, I mean, we do know that longtime individual donors have rescinded their bequests or are, you know, asking for refunds on their subscriptions. And so, you know, maybe they are getting a lot of money, but not in the way that nonprofit arts organizations are accustomed to doing so. One thing that you report on that's interesting is just like, you know, the idea that there are all these longtime staffers who have been pushed out. They've had their credit cards revoked, PTO changes, bans on pronouns and email signatures, and also new hires who don't understand like the basic vocabulary of arts administration, like what capacity means or what an usher is.

20:57Which to me, I mean, it seems like that's the kind of thing that you just can't have go on for that long before the thing just collapses. Like, you need people who understand what an usher is. Right, right. How is that affecting day-to-day operations? And did you see any of that when you were at the honors? Yeah, I mean, it's not sustainable. And what I've heard over and over is that it's not sustainable. At the particular honors ceremony, there were a few snafus. I would describe them as pretty mild. You know, the house lights came up a little bit early before, like, videos were over. at certain points, like, the striking crews didn't seem to know what they were doing, and there would be sort of, like, a mic-to-voice saying, okay, guys, move the piano.

21:39But I think in the day-to-day operations, that's where you really see that kind of doge thing of, like, a group of people coming in to demolish a very fragile ecosystem and then just, like, have some astroturf and a board of wood and a glue gun, and they're like, we're great.

22:04In a minute, we'll turn to Trump's broader relationship to art and culture. This is the political scene from The New Yorker.

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22:56so i really want to talk to you about how arts and culture figure into trump's public persona as well as his presidency because i feel like it's like one of the only things that kind of makes him seem human sometimes the fact that he genuinely seems to have this like kind of infatuation with Broadway and certain performers, like in a way that makes him just seem like it's like the most normal thing about him. I think a lot of people would probably agree with that. So as you were reporting on the Kennedy Center Honors and on Trump's takeover of the institution, did you feel like you learned anything new about his relationship to the arts or like anything that kind of complicated your previous understanding of it?

23:36Yeah. I mean, one thing, I love the way you put that, that it does make him seem human because in a way, many parts of Trump's aesthetic vision are about power and they are about asserting dominance. But there is this sort of sliver of it that really does feel more intimate and more private and personal. And I remember I was talking to someone who said, Trump is the only person who has a vision for the Kennedy Center. Everyone else is just trying to gut it, you know, extract as much profit or as much money or power as they can before moving on to the next thing. But Trump, he sort of has an idea of what he wants culture to reflect under his presidency.

24:19And, you know, you can say that idea is him. He wants culture to reflect him. But what does that mean? And something that has been sort of poignant in reporting this piece is I think there's sort of a tension between how Trump wants to be seen and what Trump likes. In that, just thinking about what the Kennedy Center represents for a lot of us, there is that high classical prestigious part. And he really wants some of that glamour, you know, like the sort of pearls and the woodwinds and the sopranos and whatever. But what he likes is the crowd-pleasing stuff. He likes cats. He likes the Phantom of the Opera.

24:58And I think that it's almost as if he wants to use the Kennedy Center to transmogrify his actual taste into sort of high culture. And if he can just import his stuff into the Kennedy Center, it will turn it into gold. And we will all agree that Trump is like the great cultural tastemaker of our time. I wonder if you can just like very quickly like remind everyone what his taste is or kind of adds up to. What are kind of like the main strains of it? Like there's like the – it seems like a lot of it is like crowd-pleasing entertainment that was popular in the 80s. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Like Edward Webber.

25:37The 80s is a very central piece of this. So thank you for bringing that up. Like he's frozen in a lot of ways in the 80s. I think politically as well. But it's sort of, you know, 80s hair bands. And Kiss is an example. 80s musicals the type of thing that like he thought people loved in the 80s so yeah he's talked about cats he's talked about Les Mis sort of these Broadway shows the village people was really big for him you know Lee Greenwood proud to be an American there's the sort of country side of it and I think then there's this you know feminine beauty I think so like the American beauty pageant side of things is like also somewhere in there.