Introducing: “The Journey,” from In the Dark

24:19Ava Kofman:And so I checked my email and here my attorney had sent us a TikTok. And I'm like, oh, well, why is my attorney sending me TikTok videos? She's like, look at this. She's all, can you imagine? I go, what do you mean, can I imagine? That's the lady we had the baby for. I was like, yeah, that's the name of my contract. That's the father in my contract. So already at that point, I'm like, oh my God. Okay, we're linked. And that's what really stopped me in my tracks. I started crying. I was like, what the heck did I just get myself into?

25:00That spring and summer, the surrogates for Sylvia and Guojun began to find one another. Under different circumstances, they might have had little in common. They lived in Virginia, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Florida, California. They were white, Hispanic, black, Asian, lesbians, aspiring trad wives, military spouses, single moms. Some opposed abortion. One had worked in an abortion clinic. But thrust into the same unnerving situation, they quickly bonded as they tried to figure out what was going on. Some of the surrogates created group chats on Facebook. They started swapping photographs of the same jade bracelets, same envelopes filled with cash, and same intended mother, smiling at their bedsides hours after they'd given birth.

25:52These were pictures, like, of Sylvia in the same exact outfit, the same leather jacket, like, the same outfit to the tee. I mean, you just can't say, like, oh, no, that's not me. Like, it is you, you know what I mean? and it's like indisputable evidence. For the surrogates, even sharing these details could be risky. Most surrogacy contracts require confidentiality. If the marked surrogates revealed personal information about the intended parents, they could be forced to repay the money they'd earned or even be sued. But the risk seemed worth taking. The surrogates worried about the children they'd carried and why the couple had wanted so many of them.

26:33They wondered whether they'd been unwitting participants in some kind of dystopian mass breeding scheme, or if they'd carried babies for human traffickers. They started sending tips to the FBI. An FBI agent responded and asked the women questions about their journeys, though the agent wouldn't tell them much in return. Kayla was desperate to find out if the newborn she'd carried was okay. For days, she texted and called Sylvia. She was hoping Sylvia might be able to reassure her. Finally, Sylvia called her back. And immediately, Sylvia told Kayla something that made Kayla even more alarmed. She and Guojun had just spent four days in jail.

27:18When Kayla heard this, she started recording the call. They put my husband and me all in the jail. Oh my goodness. Sylvia didn't explain exactly why she'd been arrested.

27:40Oh my gosh. But she alluded to a police investigation regarding child trafficking.

27:53Sylvia said, I'm not selling the baby. The babies were all living with her and Guojun. Yeah.

28:04We spent a lot of money, Sylvia told Kayla. We want to be the family here. No, I believe you. I understand what you're saying. I was trying to figure out why all these other girls were saying these horrible things. The conversation was bizarre. Sylvia spent the first few minutes lamenting that the police had taken away her phone.

28:31of a phone to call. Kayla remained sympathetic and kept trying to steer the conversation back to the baby she'd carried. Was she safe? No, I understand. I believe you. I just, like I said, I was really concerned. And then, of course, you know, I understand that, you know, she isn't my baby, but still having, you know, giving birth to her and meeting you and caring about you, it's just, I mean. It wasn't entirely clear whether Sylvia even knew which of her surrogates she was talking to. At one point, she mentioned what sounded like a different baby, carried by someone else. Yeah, I found an attorney to contact with your stage to get the baby back.

29:13Okay, wait, I think you're confused as to who you're talking to, because I think, this is Kayla. Yeah, Kayla was helping me to have the baby, right? Yes, yeah, I had the baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. After a lot of unsatisfying back and forth, Kayla got one clue about the baby. She wasn't with Sylvia. She was with DCFS, the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services. So Kayla dialed the DCFS hotline, hoping someone official could finally tell her what was going on. I called and spoke to a lady, I guess at the main line, whoever you call. And she basically, I kind of had to haggle with her for a minute because she didn't want to tell me anything.

30:02And I said, look, look, I'm a surrogate. I am the child's birth mom. I gave birth to this baby. And she was like, OK. She said, well, she said, I can't give, you know, any, you know, too much information. Child welfare cases in California are confidential. Since Kayla wasn't actually related to the baby, she didn't have the legal right to know anything about her. But by emphasizing her unusual connection to the child, she managed to get herself transferred to two caseworkers. And I'm just like pacing back and forth through the house, like absolutely just shocked at what I was hearing. This is when Kayla learned the true number of children that the couple had.

30:42The man, I never got his name, but he said that, yeah, there was like 21 children. 21 children, most under the age of three. And he was saying that it was just the wildest thing ever, that like all these children looked like related but not related. Like hair colors were semi-different and eye colors and some looked more mixed than others. And it was just a really crazy, like they said they'd never seen anything like that. It turned out that Sylvia and Guojun had been jailed on suspicion of child endangerment. The couple had been released without charges, but the police investigation was ongoing.

31:21Meanwhile, the children had been taken into temporary foster care. A juvenile dependency court in L.A. would be looking into the situation to decide whether or not Sylvia and Guo Jun could get them back.

31:39This was an overwhelming set of facts for Kayla and the other surrogates to take in. And there wasn't much they could do. Surrogacy in the United States is largely unregulated, a multi-billion dollar industry underwritten by good intentions. It's harder to open a hair salon than it is to open a surrogacy agency. And if something goes wrong at an agency, there's no licensing department to appeal to, no regulatory body to report to, no federal laws govern the intimate act of bringing strangers together to create a new life. There is, however, that one universal rule for surrogates. Don't get attached.

32:24The Mark surrogates had known this from the start of their journeys. You tell yourself, like, this isn't your child. I mean, those are things that you should know before even, like, applying to be a surrogate. Like, this is not your baby. Like, you don't get attached. But now they began to question whether that rule still applied. The intended parents had been in jail and were under investigation by police and the FBI. And their children had been placed in foster care. Kayla said if she'd known that this was going to happen to the baby she'd given birth to, she would have never handed her over to Sylvia.

32:59She liked to say that she would have fled with her over the border to Mexico. For Kayla, this was just a soothing fantasy. The baby she'd carried was already in the foster system. But that wasn't true for everyone. Because at that very moment, several women were still caring for Sylvia and Guojun. In fact, in May 2025, at the time of the parents' arrest, six more babies were still on the way.

33:42Record your message at the tone. When you are finished, hang up or press pound for more options.

33:49Ava Kofman:Yes, Detective. Hi, my name is Stacey King. I am currently pregnant in the state of Virginia with a couple's baby. and I'm just trying to see what I can come up with paperwork-wise to protect the baby that will be coming in the next little while. If you could please give me a call back, I would appreciate it. Thank you. Stacey King lives in Chesapeake, Virginia and works at a shop that installs audio accessories. Yeah, we do boats, we do cars, we do houses. they even do the little golf carts. I met up with her in the shop one afternoon with our producer, Natalie Jablonski, and Stacey led us to her office in the back.

34:41Ava Kofman:So I can't guarantee it's going to be quiet. Oh, it's okay. Understood. You might hear bass occasionally. Oh, that's great. Stacey is the shop's bookkeeper. She's exceptionally organized. And like Kayla, she was so excited about her surrogacy journey that she documented nearly every step along the way. She and her husband got matching t-shirts. His read, it's not mine. Hers, it's not mine either. She was nearly four months away from giving birth to a baby girl for Sylvia and Guojun when she first heard about the other women. She'd come across a warning posted on Facebook by a surrogate who'd seen Kayla's TikTok.

35:20Ava Kofman:I freaked out. I was at home. My husband was in the shower. I was trying to read through it. And I can feel, like, my heart rate speeding up and time slowing down. It was as if she'd taken a fast-acting drug. And it's already, like, it was already starting to take effect at that point of figuring out, holy crap, this is real.

35:52Ava Kofman:and my daughter coming up to me, Mommy, Mommy, and I'm trying to pay attention to her but read this at the same time. She wasn't sure what to do, so she contacted the lawyer who'd reviewed her surrogacy contract. Yeah, I emailed him. He emailed me that evening. What does your email first say? Scared spitless. What do I do? It read, Scared spitless, what do I do? The lawyer didn't seem too concerned. Basically, he said, as long as she was still getting paid and as long as the pregnancy was going smoothly, she should keep calm and carry on. She eventually talked to other lawyers who told her the same thing.

36:36She should follow the terms of her contract, which meant staying in touch with the intended parents and handing over the baby as soon as she was born. What are the thoughts going through your head in terms of what's going to happen to baby girl?

36:51Ava Kofman:This was a lot. It was a whole lot. I just wanted her, I wanted to be safe. I wanted her to be safe. My next thought was just trying to make sure she came out healthy. Stacey panicked, and then she felt guilty for panicking. She didn't want to cause any stress to the baby. There were days where I couldn't come to work. Like, I had to call in and say, like, look, this is what I've hit. I can't come in today. She had so many questions. Would Sylvia and Guojun still be allowed to come to Virginia to pick up the baby if they were under investigation? And even if Stacey could hand the baby over to them, would it be the right thing to do?

37:34Stacey joined one of the group chats made up of surrogates who'd carried for the couple. One of them had delivered a baby girl the same weekend that Sylvia and Guojun had spent in jail. That surrogate was still recovering from a C-section when her county's child welfare agency took the newborn away.

37:54Stacey wanted to find out whether there was anything she could do to intervene before it was too late. Record your message at the tone. When you are finished, hang up or press... She started calling around to all the authorities she could think of.

38:09Ava Kofman:Yes, Detective. Hi, my name is Stacey King. Yes, hi. My name is Stacey King. I'm almost 38 weeks pregnant, and I'm just trying to see what I can do. I need some advice, and she referred me to you. Press 9 to continue. Good morning, Stacey. I'm a victim specialist with FBILA. If you would give me a call. Hi, Ms. King. This is Anthony, Los Angeles County DCFS social worker. Could you please give me a call back as soon as possible? Thank you.

38:48Just going through these and just thinking about the number of agencies, too, you're dealing with. It's so many different entities from the law firm, from the L.A. Social Services, Virginia Social Services, FBI, local police.

39:00Ava Kofman:I even tried calling and talking to people in the foster care system, trying to figure out how to become a foster parent to her. Daisy wasn't even sure if that would be legal. In states like California, the courts are explicit that gestational surrogates don't have any claim to the children they're carrying. If a surrogate could change her mind at any point in the process, then the contract she'd signed would be meaningless. It's not difficult to see how introducing ambiguity into these kinds of transactions could lead the surrogacy industry to collapse. None of the couple's surrogates had gone into this line of work because they'd wanted another kid of their own.

39:41If anything, the opposite was true. Kayla had had her tubes tied. Stacey had that It's Not Mine t-shirt. But now, many of the surrogates were raising questions about their contracts. They were wondering about their custody rights. And in doing so, they were unintentionally putting the industry to an unprecedented test.

40:06Ava Kofman:We ended up calling children and youth and explaining it to them really early on back in June or July. Alexa Fossold was a long-distance bus driver in central Pennsylvania. She was due around the same time as Stacey in October 2025. and she had a lot of the same questions. And everybody kept telling us the answer of, there's no baby yet, so we can't help you. And so I was like, oh, okay. Like, so what does that mean? Like, you're going to wait till the day I give birth to step in and help us? Like, what does that mean for us? Like, am I going to have to take the baby home and then call children and youth afterwards?

40:48Making things even trickier was the fact that it's difficult to report concerns to a child welfare agency about a child that doesn't yet exist. Alexa told me she kept being asked for the child's date of birth, which was obviously impossible to provide.

41:03Ava Kofman:They didn't know what to tell us because there was no baby yet. They're like, well, are you reporting yourself? It was really confusing to them. Stacey, Alexa, and the other pregnant surrogates made dozens of calls like this, trying to figure out what to do. Mostly what they'd learned was that, at least for now, they were completely on their own. All they had was one another. They woke up messaging the group chat and went to sleep the same way. They traded notes on their doctor's appointments, sent each other ultrasound photos. They still weren't sure what would happen when they gave birth, if they'd even be allowed to bring the babies home.

41:45But tentatively, the women started to get ready. They texted about baby fever and how their inner mama bears were coming out in, quote, full effing force. Joked about buying land for a commune where they could collectively babysit. They traded advice on breast pumps, knit baby blankets, collected baby clothes. Even as they made these backup plans in secret, they stayed in touch with the intended parents, as required by their contracts. They shared screenshots of their ongoing communications with Sylvia. It was now a little funny when Sylvia mixed up their names or mailed them identical tins of mooncakes or sent them the same texts at the same time.

42:27You're doing an amazing job, one of the messages said. I am reaching out in the hope that I might have the opportunity to visit you, said another. As part of this charm offensive, Sylvia also called some of the pregnant surrogates. Stacey was two months away from delivering and decided to record their conversation. So I don't need a cell baby to keep it alive, you know. Sylvia sounded calm, even as she defended herself against some of the rumors Stacey might have heard. They just want to—I'm not sure why they say I'm a human trafficking. I told all my story to my attorney. Several attorneys, they say there's nothing looks like you have a criminal case here.

43:15So they are going to contact with a detective to find out what's going on.

43:22Ava Kofman:Okay. It's been a lot. Sylvia offered to fly to Stacey's house to explain herself in person. Even I think I should fly to your place to tell you the stories. I'm not a bad person. And we are working super hard to keep our life. And we just want to be a family. I'm not a bad person, she said. We just want to have a family. I know you guys work, so I've tried not to bother you too much. But honestly, it's scary for us, or for me too. too, because when they said you guys had more than one child, that kind of caught me off guard, because I only thought you had one child. Sylvia said she never tried to cheat anyone.

44:21And it sounds like Stacey is longing to believe her.

44:24Ava Kofman:We're praying. It's like, maybe it's just a misunderstanding. We've got to let the law and the courts do what they're supposed to. You can hear Stacey trying to imagine what a mother separated from her children must be going through. It's heartbreaking to even think about losing, you know, losing your kids, let alone someone coming in and taking them. So my heart comes to you. I know you're not doing well. Sylvia told her the arrest in May was a big mix-up. She insisted she was a good mother. She'd done a good job raising her children. Someday, maybe I can invite you to my house. I can buy the ticket for you.

45:09You can see my child. They are really healthy. They are friendly. They're helping each other. They are independent. They're helping each other. They're independent, she said. They know to put the trash to the trash can. They know how to take the shoes out, clothes out. Some of the children know how to put the clothes to the washer. Then they're eating well, sleeping well. I'm following the doctor's appointment. I think I'm doing pretty good for the child. On a weekend, sometimes I bring them to go out to play. The household Sylvia was describing sounded a bit austere. Little kids who knew how to throw away trash, put their clothes in the washing machine, and who sometimes were taken outside to play.

46:09Still, Stacey hoped for a connection, and she and Sylvia went on for a few minutes, trading notes about being mothers, about homeschooling and juggling work. Throughout the conversation, Sylvia seemed like she was confiding in Stacey. I never talk with anyone. You are the only person I talk with. The story, trust me. Yeah. I don't want you to tell anybody the story.

46:37Ava Kofman:Yeah, I might share it with my husband if that's okay. That's okay, Sylvia said. Just don't talk to reporters. I don't want a news reporter to know the process. I don't want anybody to report anything. I don't want anybody to report anything. But in early August, not long after that phone call, there was more reporting. New in 5, disturbing details in police records. Local news outlets obtained a copy of the police affidavit from the parents' arrest. suddenly Stacy and the surrogates had a clearer picture of why Sylvia and Guojun had ended up in jail and why all their kids had been taken away we do have to warn you the details and images in these documents are graphic according to the police this had all started one morning three months earlier when officers showed up at Sylvia and Guojun's house they had just gotten a call from a nearby hospital One of the couple's babies, who was two months old, had been admitted to the intensive care unit with severe head injuries, and doctors were concerned that he might have been abused.

47:52So detectives went to check out the baby's home address, a 10 ,000-square-foot mansion in the city of Arcadia. Inside, the police wondered if they'd entered some sort of unlicensed daycare. There were rooms filled with cribs, and at least a dozen toddlers and infants seated at desks and highchairs. inside makeshift classrooms. It was impossible to tell the girls and boys apart, since all the children had their heads shaved. Police also noticed CCTV cameras everywhere, recording audio and video. On one tape, a nanny named Junmay Lee appeared to hit the two-month-old child who'd ended up in the hospital.

48:35Arcadia police say security cameras inside this home show Lee placing him down out of camera sight while he can be heard crying. The baby cries for a few seconds until a thud or a hit is heard and crying suddenly stops. This wasn't the only child who'd allegedly been abused. The footage also showed nannies forcing other children into squats, hitting them in the face, and spanking them on a table at the front of the classroom. There were so many hours of video, police were still going through it. Police say while Sylvia Zing and Guangdong Chen were arrested and released, their investigation into them and what went on inside this home continues.

49:21When we reached out to Sylvia and Guojun for comment on the series, one of their legal representatives told us he'd instructed the couple not to respond. But the couple has previously denied abusing any of their children or trafficking them. And one of their lawyers has told me the couple had done everything they could to protect their family.

49:45After seeing the images from inside the house, Stacey made a decision.

49:51Ava Kofman:So, yeah, there is a switch. and it was around the, I want to say, the August time frame, the switch did definitely flip. Like, you know what? Let's start preparing to possibly bring her home. It was a decision that months ago would have seemed unthinkable, even irrational. It would mean taking a huge legal risk. And it would mean getting attached.

50:26Ava Kofman:no, we're not biologically related, but okay, even at that point, everything I eat, my blood, everything else of me goes into her to help her be better. So she is a part of me at that point. And then Mama Bear comes out. And no, she's not mine. But you want to protect a child, an innocent being that you are carrying. Stacey's two children embraced the idea of adding a new sibling to their home. They would listen to me put the monitor on my stomach and they could hear her heartbeat. And they would get so excited that they could hear her heartbeat and they would talk to her. Her son raced cars on her stomach.

51:12Her daughter sang to the baby.

51:14Ava Kofman:So, like, there was a point there where we were calling her sissy. because we were, you know, considering further on into the pregnancy of keeping her. Stacey was due in less than two months. Like, every bone in our bodies was to protect this child. And if we could keep her, we would.

51:43Coming up on The Journey. Everybody always goes back to the same thing. Mija, how is it that the agency didn't know? Everybody always asked me that. Me and my co-worker, we named her the surrogate pimp. She wanted to have a lot of surrogates at one time. We're here because we love families. We want families to grow. And then he pulled out a gun, and I mean, there was kind of like a standoff. the sheriffs came. It's patently false that my client incited any sort of abuse of the child. He doesn't believe in abusing children. He actually believes in enriching them and giving them the best opportunities to succeed.

52:26I was curious what you make of that decision, just given the fact pattern so far. That's insane. That is fucking insane. I mean, we're at insane already. I keep going, but I mean, we're at insane. I don't know what the next word will be. I'll have to go check my theosaurus or something.

53:01The Journey is written and produced by me, Ava Kaufman, senior producer, Natalie Jablonski, and producer, Raymond Tungakar. Samara Fremark is the managing producer for the series. It's edited by Allison McAdam Additional editing by Willing Davidson and Madeline Barron Theme and original music by Alex Weston Additional music by Chris Julin and Allison Leighton-Brown This episode was mixed by Corey Shreppel Our art is by Vartika Sharma Art direction by Aviva Miklov and Ben Kothi Fact-checking by Inwa Shi and Aman Hussain Our summer research assistant is Ethan Kahn Legal review by Fabio Bertoni and Ben Murray Our managing editor is Julia Rothschild With additional support from Kiara Ortiz Thanks also to Parker Jesko The editor of The New Yorker is David Remnick If you have comments or story tips Please send them to the team At inthedark at newyorker.com and make sure to follow In the Dark wherever you get your podcasts.

54:21Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, follow In the Dark to hear the rest of the series wherever you get your podcasts.

54:51The GQ Universe

54:58to OutKastAndre3000. And now I'll be doing it weekly. I'm going to sit down with some of the most interesting people in the world and figure out what makes them, well, them. New episodes of One More Question will be available each week wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube if seeing people in chairs is more your thing.

55:21One day last year, police entered a mansion in L.A. County and discovered the couple that lived there had almost two dozen children, nearly every one of them born through surrogates. But those surrogates had been deceived. I started crying. I was like, what the heck did I just get myself into? I'm Ava Kaufman. The Journey is a new series from In the Dark and The New Yorker. Find it now in the In the Dark podcast feed.

55:53Are you ready to push your baking skills? This month at Bon Appetit Bake Club, we are making glazed apple pie fritters. I'm Shilpoz Kokovic. And I'm Jessi Sepchak. And we're senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appetit and the hosts of BA's Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers. Every month, we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll go bake and send us any questions you have. And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. And if you want to master deep frying, this is your chance.

56:27Head to BA.com or our sub stack and come and bake along with us. Join us the first Tuesday of every month as we debrief about our latest bake. Find BA Bake Club wherever you get your podcasts. Happy baking!