Is Zohran Mamdani’s “Sewer Socialism” Resonating?

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1:58Hi, Molly. Hi, Tyler. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Since January, you have been writing this column for The New Yorker about Zoran Mamdani's mayorship. And last week, you actually spoke with Mom Donnie, which I think was just before he officially hit 100 days in office. Day 99, right under the wire. Perfect time to do an interview. I'm wondering what surprised you or stood out to you from meeting him. Like, after spending so much time writing and talking about him from, like, a little bit of a distance, what was it like actually chatting with him? The man is profoundly on message.

2:29I mean, I was saying earlier, you know, if you remember the first time he met with Trump in the Oval Office, he somehow took a question about how you how he got to D.C., like whether he took the plane or the train or what and managed to bring that back to the affordability agenda. I think that is interesting because you see he has all these videos that are obviously very on message. And then you kind of wonder how much of that is sort of scripted or programmed or part of it like a larger team. But it actually just seems like those are the things that he's interested in. He's like very media savvy and kind of knows how to keep the conversation on the things that he actually cares about as opposed to his personal life or the other things that his critics like to focus on.

3:07I don't know. People will sometimes talk about, well, people will talk about many arenas of life as being quote unquote like high school. And people will certainly say that about politics. And what I found myself thinking about and writing about in the last installment of this column was the way in which the first 100 days of his Merrill T. have really felt like evocative of a high school experience. It's not in that they are about, you know, cliques or social dynamics or any of the ways people typically use that language, but rather that they are about this kind of artificial, brief, high stress, high pressure, like a series of hurdles and tests and achievements that you have to clear in order to get where you are going.

3:49I mean, I think that the idea of looking at a mayor's first hundred days is kind of acknowledged by all parties to be a little goofy and artificial. And at the same time, it is real and you have to deliver something in those days. You have to be able to position yourself as a persuasive and legitimate leader of the city in that time frame, which is, you know, a tall, tall order. And so watching him respond to my questions, respond to other journalists' questions, engage with the media, do his thing. Like, I was reminded of a few things so much as a, like, very adept, high-achieving high school student, like someone who is just aware that they are being watched and aware that they are being assessed and is very capable of kind of being on best behavior under those circumstances.

4:32That's Molly Fisher, who just wrote the final installment of her column on Zoran Mamdani's first 100 days as mayor of New York. Mamdani's rise from a little-known state assembly member to the mayor-elect of the country's largest city was one of the most striking political stories in recent years. But as he took office in January, an open question remained. Could he translate that electoral momentum into action and actually deliver on his sweeping campaign promises around affordability? I wanted to talk with Molly about whether Mamdani the mayor looks different from Mamdani the candidate, his approach to governing, the status of some of his biggest initiatives, and how he's navigating relationships with key political groups and figures, from his progressive base to Governor Kathy Hochul to President Donald Trump.

5:17This is The Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggett, and I'm a senior editor at The New Yorker. So just thinking about this idea of, like, what Momdani was trying to prove in his first 100 days, which I feel like we can focus on that premise, because it's not just like an artificial thing created by the media, but it's actually something that he himself seemed to kind of— Oh, absolutely. Yeah, believe in that he needed to actually do something within that time. I mean, what would you say were like the main things he was trying to show? Was it that he is actually a competent leader and is more than just like an Instagram guy?

5:51Is it that he could take the energy from the campaign and roll that into being mayor? Is it that he's not like a crazy socialist who's going to, you know, push all of the business owners out of the city? Like, what do you think was actually like his main kind of goals? I mean, all of the above. I think all those things are kind of inextricable from each other because I think, you know, part of the way he had to prove that he wasn't a quote-unquote crazy socialist was by showing that, you know, he could lead the city and the wheels would not come off, like that things would continue to function.

6:19You know, snowstorms would not derail the functioning of the city, for example. And, you know, I think that the idea of 100 days was clearly something that was front of mind for his administration. And I think that in a lot of ways, what I ended up feeling like is that the sort of optics and image making of this administration were inextricable from the actual governance. When you think about something like the 100 ,000 potholes he was constantly talking about having filled in New York City, you know, on one hand, like, that's very concrete, practical, yeah, literally concrete, made of asphalt, city good that people rely on every day and that people are excited when the potholes outside their house are fixed and that that's something that, you know, is kind of irrefutable and useful.

7:05It also is something that yields content that they like have talked about ad nauseum that they've like been able to document extensively. I mean, I was out last week late at night while the mayor was doing a series of visits to various work sites where people, you know, working the night shift, whether it was as EMTs or road workers for the Department of Transportation, were out doing their jobs at, you know, 11, 12, 1 over Wednesday night. And as I was watching, you know, the mayor chat with these DOT workers who were repaving an on-ramp in Queens, like, I was struck by how at once, you know, they seemed to be having a nice conversation.

7:43They were doing real work, you know, like this on-ramp was getting fixed. That was going to improve people's commutes. Great. It was also a fantastic place for photography. The lighting was incredible. The floodlights, the steam coming off the pavement, like, he looked like he was in an action movie about trucks. And like the ability to kind of find the overlap between concrete, boring, practical quotidian governance and the kind of almost cinematic, like good for the camera, like messaging materials has been kind of uncanny. I mean, of course, like the kind of snappy short form videos, that's a big part of like how he sort of rose to I wouldn't want to say that like it's why he was elected.

8:19But I do think it's how he rose to prominence in the sense that a lot of people kind of got to know who he was during the course of the campaign. And it's been funny to see that these videos have very much continued even now that he's mayor. But would you say that, like, the mayor Mom Donnie videos have a different feel to them than the candidate Mom Donnie videos? Or is it just like an extension of the same thing? That's interesting. I mean, I think it's a lot of continuity. I think that he sort of has this affect that, you know, to me, and I think other observers have remarked upon this as well, you know, it sometimes seems to evoke a kind of, like, not Barack Obama himself, but sort of Obama-era pop culture.

8:53and like the kind of almost educational entertainment for adults, like Sesame Street for grownups, optimism. Yeah, like kind of I'm informing you about civics in a like slightly funny and also slightly nerdy and enthusiastic way. And I think that that I don't see a lot of distinction necessarily between the campaign trail videos, say, and the videos that he's continued to produce in office. But it does feel like you sense a different kind of attitude in terms of their function, just in as much as, you know, when you're thinking about what it means to have a socialist in his office, when you're thinking about what it means to try to kind of sell the people of New York on the idea that they should be trusting their government in a new way and looking to city services to be reliable in a new way or, you know, to be open to the possibility of new city services, like things like a universal child care for two-year-olds program, which he's announced.

9:45You know, part of that means making that universalism possible by making people aware of what's going on and making people feel trusting of you and your government and sort of inspiring a different kind of relationship or attitude there. And so I think that the videos, to my mind now, feel like they're geared more towards kind of cultivating that sense of connection with something that might have felt kind of forbidding or impersonal or inaccessible before. You know, the city bureaucracy, which of course is huge. And, you know, surely he is kind of only at the beginning of learning all the ropes of it.

10:20But it does feel like there's a desire to kind of demystify that and make it more something that feels accessible to people. That's a really good way of putting it. I mean, one thing that I've been wondering is sort of how long he can kind of maintain the outsider with a lot of ideas coming in to shake things up persona. Like, I think, I mean, there are a lot of, you know, comparisons have been made between Mom Donnie and Trump kind of like in their populist appeal. And I was just thinking about how Trump, when he ran the first time, was obviously like this outsider who's going to come in and just shake things up.

10:49And then when he ran for the second time and the third time, it's like he still kind of tried to act like an outsider, but he's very much entrenched. And obviously the entire Republican Party has oriented itself around him. And so I guess I wonder at what point we will feel that way with Mom Donnie, where, you know, 100 days in, he's still kind of like new to the job. But at what point will we be watching these videos? And it's not like this new guy coming in and shaking things up. It's just the guy who is our longtime mayor. Yeah, well, I mean, I think part of that depends on how other people respond to him.

11:18I mean, what you were describing in terms of the dynamics around Trump, like that has to do with the way that the Republican Party reshaped itself in fealty to Trump. And so I think we kind of have yet to see how Democrats in New York City and beyond will end up metabolizing the fact of Mamdani. I mean, clearly there was initially the sense that he was going to be this extreme figure that they had to run away from. And that very quickly had the air let out of it, you know, by things like his apparent buddy-buddy relationship with Trump, you know. Like he becomes harder to vilify in that way. But, you know, I think there are a number of things that people will be watching to sort of see how those relationships evolve.

11:57I mean, for example, the congresswoman Nidia Velasquez is retiring, and she has announced that her preferred successor for her seat is Antonio Reynoso, a longtime protege of hers. And Mamdani has endorsed Claire Valdez, who's a DSA comrade, someone who he's, you know, supported a lot over the years and who supported his campaign. And, you know, it sort of sets up a question of like what kind of who's going to have the upper hand in terms of influence and power here. Like who actually has the force to reshape a race like this? I mean, is he someone who is a center of gravity in the way that he perhaps wants to be?

12:33Or is he, you know, does he have that weight? I mean, I think also the question of the budget and whether or not he's going to succeed in being able to finance his big plans, like if he's going to get the money that he needs to close the budget gap, which will depend in large part on Kathy Hochul, but, you know, is also going to be a dance with the city council as led by Julie Menon. You know, those are questions too. And I think it sort of is up to other people whether or not Mamdani feels like an oppositional figure or like the city's center of gravity. Yeah, I mean, let's talk a little bit more about money.

13:05My favorite topic. Obviously, Mom Donnie's campaign was centered around a lot of core promises like freezing the rent, making buses fast and free, providing universal childcare, city-run grocery stores, a bunch of things that were both characterized as ambitious and also expensive. Yeah. And you wrote a piece that explored what you referred to as the art of the ask, which was about how Momdani has been going about getting the money that he needs to carry out his agenda, which has involved making nice with both Democrats and Republicans who he might not have much common cause with. So I'm wondering if you could just lay out like what the art of the ask is and what that's kind of looked like as he's gone about trying to forge these relationships and ask for money.

13:43Yeah, yeah. Well, before getting into the art of the ask, one thing I should say about the big expensive campaign promises is that, as many people have noted, there's been some dialing back of the ambitions there. You will notice that you're not hearing so much about fast free buses anymore. Just fast now, right? Just fast. They're just fast buses now. We're forgetting about the free part. And, you know, for example, even something like child care, which does feel like it's been a real coup that he was able, you know, a week into his administration to announce that he had secured funding from Kathy Hochul, if not through a tax increase, at least through a promise of state funds for the first two years.

14:20That still is, you know, just the very beginnings of something that has not yet been fully delivered. That's something that's going to start with, you know, 2 ,000, 2K seats and then grow to 12 ,000. And then, you know, a few years out, become something bigger. So, you know, I think probably inevitably there's been a degree of reining in some of the very, very bold-faced promises from the campaign. And do you think that's because of money issues? Or do you think that's just like being in office and kind of realizing that it's very hard to logistically just make this stuff happen? Yeah, I think that's just the reality.

14:51I mean, I think, you know, I don't know that there's anyone who could deliver all those things magically straight out of the gate. So I think that's not – I don't think that's something that it makes sense to cast as a failure or a disappointment. I think that's just life. The art of the ask, though, I mean, I think that what's been most pronounced in the early months in office has been his inclination to play nice with Kathy Hochul. Kathy Hochul is the governor. She's very moderate. She's someone who, you know, there was a question as to whether or not she'd be a real adversary of Momdani's. And I remember during the campaign, I believe, there was a rally where Kathy Hochul was speaking.

15:31Momdani was also there. The crowds— Tax the rich. Yes, yes. We're heckling her by chanting tax the rich. And Mamdani came out smiling, takes her hand, you know, sort of changes the tenor of the moment, like makes this something that is, you know, not as adversarial as it was possibly going to become. And I think that that's sort of the place he has tried to stay in navigating this relationship with her, like being this person who's at the forefront of a movement that, you know, he wants to show as a powerful movement, but he's also a conciliatory figure and someone who wants to give her an opening to do this in a way that does not feel like it's evocative of the Andrew Cuomo, Bill de Blasio kind of rivals between New York City and New York State.

16:12That was just toxic. Exactly. We can't return to that. Well, we can't return to that, although in negotiating the budget, Mamdani did sort of right at the outset try as much as possible to almost recast the conversation that was going to have to happen in sort of the terms of the campaign. I remember being at the press conference where he was first laying out what he called the Adams budget crisis. And it was all about how, you know, Andrew Cuomo had been unfair to New York City and Adams had, you know, kind of undermined the city's budgeting with all his nefarious accounting practices. And it very clearly felt like he wanted to rerun some of the contests that he won very recently in terms of besting those political foes.

16:54But he, with Hockel, has been inclined to be much more conciliatory. He's constantly talking about the partnership that they are forging. He's talking about, you know, how they're working together on child care. And, you know, you've seen alongside that him being willing to sort of play a similarly conciliatory role with Trump. On one hand, he has gone out of his way to say that, you know, he criticizes the war in Iran, that he criticizes the government's actions in Venezuela. But he also has, of course, been in D.C. You know, he showed up with these mocked up daily news front pages that apparently his staff had dreamed up that seemed tailor-made to cater to Trump's ego, Trump's sort of old school tabloid fantasies of himself as a New York real estate baron.

17:42And it seems like, you know, that is something that has yet to bear fruit. You know, the housing development in Queens that he was there to propose is not something that is anywhere near being realized right now. But it did seem like it was testament to his ability to create unexpected political overtures and allies in a way that could be productive. I mean, for example, it might not be a matter of budgeting or of building tons of affordable housing in Queens or whatever. But that same day, he did apparently secure the release of this Columbia student who had just been taken by ICE the same morning that he was in D.C.

18:20So it does seem like there's room for some productive conversations. there, perhaps. Just going back to the Trump stuff, I guess like I feel like everyone, at least like on my newsfeed and in my social circles, was really impressed by the way that Mom Donnie handled both Trump meetings. Maybe that's just because like going into the election, there was this fear that if Mom Donnie is elected, Trump's going to, you know, send in the National Guard and he's just going to like take over New York. Go through like a knife through butter. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so basically, I feel like the response to Mom Donnie's approach to Trump has been like extremely positive just with everyone I've talked to.

18:53But I'm curious about Momdani's DSA allies. Because I mean, you could totally see like the other argument, which is we shouldn't be flattering this guy. Obviously, there is a clear strategy there. But I guess I wonder if he's been getting flack from progressives for trying to have some kind of friendly relationship with the president or whether it's understood that you have to do that in order to succeed. Yeah, I mean, my impression and what I my impression in the conversations that I've had has not necessarily been that there's a lot of that. If anything, I would say that my sense has been that the sort of the DSA folks who backed Mamdani, the kind of corner of the New York left-wing world that he's coming from there, are people who are very focused on showing that they can deliver practical results and kind of reach people in a real way where they are, people who might not think of themselves as democratic socialists or might not think of themselves as open to socialism per se.

19:44And so I think that in a way, the work he's done with Trump or the efforts he's made there feel like a testament to that point of view where it's less about projecting a kind of purity or saying the right words on social media or something. Rather, it's more about showing that you can bridge political divides in order to affect some kind of practical change. And so, you know, that's not necessarily the quarter DSA say that I would expect to see criticism coming from. That feels more blue sky resistance mode or something not to get too on X where I frequent people. People are loving it. They're loving it.

20:19Yeah. Well, it was sort of dazzling. It was like that. I remember that first press conference just being kind of mystified and, you know, fascinated to watch them both in action. It was so strange. Yeah. I know. Maybe the actual question is for people on the Trump side, like how they feel about Trump's actions toward Mom Donnie. I think I was with my family during that first Mom Donnie Trump White House meeting. And my family's very Republican. I think they were excited for like a real like Mamdani kind of either bowing to Trump or Trump just like completely destroying him. And then when they were like all buddy-buddy and smiling, they were like super disappointed.

20:55Yeah. No, I think there's been bafflement and disappointment in more conservative quarters, for sure. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk about Mamdani's policies and initiatives and some of the things that you've written about in your column in terms of like his actual agenda and how he's been executing it. This is the political scene from The New Yorker.

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22:19So Molly, we were talking earlier about, you know, Momdani as a democratic socialist and what that means. And I guess I wonder, like, to what extent we've seen him operationalize democratic socialism. while in office. The policies that he's achieved or that he's continuing to aspire toward, even if he's ramped down the ambition a little bit. I guess, like, to what extent do you feel like, yes, this is like a socialist mayor who is in office who is doing socialist things? Well, he, I think, actually wants to very much embrace that branding right now. I mean, at his 100 Days address, he made a point of harkening back to the language he had used, I believe, in his acceptance speech, where he said, you know, I was elected as a democratic socialist, and I'm going to govern as a democratic socialist.

22:59The question of what socialism means to him and what he wants to make it mean to New Yorkers is an interesting one. And, you know, I think it was revealing, of course, that he talked in his 100 Days Address, as he has on occasions previously, about sewer socialism and the sort of legacy of these early 20th century municipal socialists who, in places like Milwaukee, became really successful at sort of delivering basic municipal services in a way that really worked for their constituents. And, you know, it seems like something like with his touting of the filled potholes and all that. You know, that's kind of the model he wants to hearken back to, the idea that, you know, believing in the government and believing in the government's ability to deliver services is what he wants to sell to New Yorkers, not necessarily some kind of extreme vision of, you know, radical left-wing, I don't know what.

23:48Although, you know, something that's attracted some degree of attention is the Office of Mass Engagement, which is now being led by Tasha Van Auken, who was his campaign's field director and is a longtime DSA person, someone who was responsible for a lot of the electoral success that DSA has had in New York in recent years, and someone who now is charged with sort of doing government outreach on behalf of the city. I mean, it's a funny position because on one hand, it, you know, on paper doesn't necessarily look like it's responsible for so, so much. You know, this is not like someone who's running the police department or running the schools or one of these giant municipal structures.

24:24Yeah, Office of Mass Engagement, it sounds a lot like audience development or something. Yeah, well, it does. But it does sound like it sounds like propaganda or something. You know, and so like the Post has run wild with like saying that it's going to be like the Politburo and like Conrad Van Alken is going to be out there hiring, you know, whatever. But in practice, what this means is like going door to door and like telling people they can sign up for reduced bus fares. And so the idea of like winning people over to services that already exist, even things that aren't necessarily new Mamdani programs or new things that he's implementing, but simply trying to make the things that are already available, things that people actually take advantage of is maybe part of how he wants to realize this stuff in ways that won't do further damage to the budget deficit.