The “Melania” Documentary Offers an Intimate Look at Very Little

0:06Hey, Lauren. Hi, Tyler. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, thanks so much for being here. Would you say that there is a particular image or scene from the Melania documentary that either intentionally or unintentionally captures the first lady's essence? ooh you know this is the thing that is fascinating about the film it's more the absence of a scene that captures the first lady's essence what i was totally fascinated by is you know this film she had creative control could have put anything in it that she wanted us to see right and it is entirely formal entirely rigid entirely like whatever the opposite of behind the scenes is You know, it's all kind of like on stage.

0:54I just thought it was fascinating. I was like kept waiting for the kind of like accessible, humanizing, kind of like downtime moment where you were going to see her like in her exercise clothes or like eating a yogurt or I don't know what, walking a dog. I don't think she has one, but something. And I just kept like anticipating that scene that was going to come and it was going to make us see Melania in a way that we've never seen her before. And it never happened. So that was what really made an impression on me, was kind of like, even, you know, given every opportunity to either document or conjure one, Melania and, you know, her handpicked makers of this film chose to present her as we've always seen her, which is like a lady in a hat that doesn't show her eyes.

1:42I think that is the perfect description of the movie. That's Lauren Collins, a staff writer at The New Yorker. Last week, Amazon MGM Studios released a documentary about Melania Trump. Despite low early tracking, the film performed relatively well at the box office for a documentary, while drawing sharp criticism from reviewers, who described it as both an advertisement for Melania's personal brand and a piece of political propaganda. The film has been shadowed by controversy, including reports that a large portion of the crew asked to have their names removed from the credits, and criticism of its director, Brett Ratner, who's had multiple accusations of sexual abuse and assault, although he's denied those accusations.

2:23I wanted to talk with Lauren about what the documentary reveals or fails to reveal about Melania Trump, why it's so difficult to get a sense of who Melania is or what she believes, and her tenures as First Lady of the United States. This is The Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggett, and I'm a senior editor at The New Yorker.

2:44so you've done a lot of our listeners a service by watching this film so that they don't have to do it themselves what would you say that it was actually about like obviously it's about melania but what was the narrative through line to the extent that there was one um i don't know it's hard to say there's not much of a narrative but there is kind of a conceit or a premise or a parameter which is that it was shot in the 20 days leading up to Trump's second inauguration. So that, I think, is supposed to, you know, this timeline and this ticking clock is supposed to endow it with some inherent drama or kind of like with a puzzle or a problem to solve.

3:24Melania has to pick out her outfit and Melania has to plan a dinner for these big Trump donors. But, you know, I was talking to another colleague who had seen it and he remarked, and I thought this was so true, that the film is almost like avant-garde in its lack of pleasure. It doesn't resort at all to these things that like, you know, as I was saying before, in suspense, really, in drama, in these devices that art typically uses to, you know, bring pleasure and excitement and investment to the beholder. It was like, yes, I mean, the film is also, in addition to having this like glamorous veneer, it's kind of bleak.

4:09Like there's just not a lot of joy. You know, you feel like you're watching like Lars von Trier do the inauguration or something. Yeah, no, I think that's totally true. And in terms of like the creation of drama, like there was that brief moment at the beginning where, you know, she's kind of explaining how she wants her coat for the inauguration to be tailored. And it seems like they're not going to be able to do it exactly that way. Obviously, they're able to in the end. And so it works out. But like that was kind of the extent to which there was drama in the film, which I found to be really, really strange, because like regardless of whether you're like a fan of Melania or Trump, like there are clear, like major things that have happened in her life in during his presidency that it would have been interesting to see her react more to.

4:54Were you surprised like at how they dealt with the fact that there have been attempts on Trump's life? I thought that was going to be kind of like the heart of the film. And she mentioned it a couple times, but it was in the stilted voiceover, like it was a little weird. Yeah. So voiceovers really, really sapped the film of what little kind of like intimacy and, you know, surprisingness it might have showed. Okay, just let's do, let's, Tyler, I think that we need to discuss the kind of like dressmaking scene. Let's do it. Like that That scene, you know, as I wrote in my piece, Brett Ratner, the director who's known for the Rush Hour films, was basically trying to make like Rush Hour 4 out of Rush alterations.

5:36And it wasn't really coming together. But that scene was not without potential, right? Look, this is not one of the primary, secondary or even tertiary questions bedeviling American democracy right now. But I would have liked to know just out of human curiosity why she did choose the hat that obscured her entire face for the inauguration. Yes. I'm curious. I want it. I'm what people people want to know. And so we have this whole boring scene dedicated to her outfit. And like none of her. It's just, again, all surface. Yeah, it's superficial. It's fashion. But like you can go deeper with that. It could have actually said something about why she chose this stuff, what it meant to her, what she was trying to convey, what she wanted to represent and communicate on this big day.

6:28And there was nothing. I mean, I spent, you know, and you did too, I don't know, seven, nine, 11 minutes of my life watching the inauguration outfit scene and emerged no wiser as to why, you know, the hat was like that and the turtleneck went. And anyway, I mean, it just seemed like a missed opportunity. I would have actually liked to have known what the thinking was behind, you know, her image making. Totally. When she puts on the hat, you kind of think that you're finally going to get an explanation for why she chose the hat, even if it's like in that red carpet way where it's just like a couple sentences as to why she was inspired to do it, because it is like a very interesting fashion choice for that kind of event.

7:08But there was nothing on that. Yeah, it was more just about like bring in like the waist a little bit tighter. It was like the clothes had already been decided. There wasn't actually like any kind of discussion of why she's dressing in that way, even though there's this long history of like, you know, people kind of focusing on the style of the first lady. And, you know, she was a former model. Like if she wanted to make an entire documentary like about her fashion and her choices, like that would kind of be like ASMR for me. Like I'd be OK with that. But we didn't even really get that. And we should know that Michelle Obama has actually just published an entire book called, I believe, The Look about like her trying to give some context to how she was using fashion to communicate as as first lady and later.

7:49So anyway, I mean, again, like even the most superficial scenes are totally without, you know, anything more to bring to the table. So I was I was surprised by that. I mean, I thought I thought it was like going in. I was like, oh, it's just like a distraction tactic. instead of talking about anything real, like the fact that Melania herself is an immigrant and she's surrounded by an entourage of immigrants in the midst of this violent crackdown on immigration that her husband is leading. But, you know, we're not going to talk about that. We're going to go really, really deep on the outfit. And not even that happened.

8:24So, yeah, that was kind of shocking. Do you think that there was, like, an intended audience for this documentary? Because I initially thought the answer was just, like, Trump supporters. But then when I saw it in New York the other day, there was like an audience of maybe a dozen people and a few of them were actually wearing like Trump stuff. So like I could credibly tell that they were MAGA. And a guy in a MAGA hat actually walked out during the second scene of Melania in front of a mirror trying on her like inauguration ball gown. And at that point, Trump hadn't appeared in the film and Trump barely appears in the film.

8:56And I think I could kind of tell that that was maybe what the vibe was going to be. There were a couple of people who applauded at the end. It kind of reminded me of like when you've been on a really turbulent flight and like the passengers clap for the pilot after he lands the plane. But yeah, I just don't really understand like who this documentary is for. Well, I think like to answer that question, we should first back up a little bit and talk about the economics of the film. Yeah. So it was made by Amazon. Amazon spent$75 million on this film, and that doesn't even include production costs.

9:33So we're talking$40 million to Melania's production company, of which she reportedly personally pocketed$28 million, and$35 million more on marketing, which has provided, for instance, the personalized popcorn buckets that you will see at theaters and the posters that are everywhere. Why did this film get made and what was it intended to do is a very valid question. I mean, just to give you some more context, the second highest bid, which was from Disney, came in$26 million lower than Amazon's. So I don't know that what Amazon spent on this film, you know, reflects market reality. And I think we have to, you know, ask, did it really get made to appeal to a broad swath of the American public or did it get made for political reasons?

10:26I think very, very valid question. that said you know it had a pretty respectable opening weekend I think it brought in between seven and eight million you know this varied radically from region to region and amongst demographics I think it was women over 55 to answer your question who are you know really flocking those were the women who were clapping at my theater I will say it was it was like older women this was the best start for documentary excluding concert films in 14 years since the nature film chimpanzee debuted yet it was nowhere near um you know it came in third on the weekend box office so like it was nowhere near the first and second movies of the weekend which were a horror thriller called send help and another horror movie called iron lung so anyway this is a documentary that you know for one reason or another has completely outlying means behind it And, you know, with a huge leg up, it's doing pretty well for a documentary.

11:29Can you talk a little bit more about the production of the movie and sort of the people involved with it? Like you mentioned earlier that the director was Brett Ratner, who was best known for the Rush Hour series. But also, you know, he's known for having been accused of sexual abuse and assault in 2017, although I should note that he has denied those accusations. Can you tell us more about the team that was working on this documentary? So, right. Brett Ratner was accused of sexual abuse by, I believe, about 10 women. And as you said, he denies it. He hasn't really worked in movies since that happened.

12:08And from what I gather, you know, he's kind of a fixture at Mar-a-Lago. I think he's living there now. He cozied up to the Trumps one way or another, and they picked him to direct this movie for his big comeback. I think Trump's also been lobbying for a rush hour for. But so, yeah, Brett Ratner, you know, the Trumps kind of pardoned him from, you know, movie industry exile and brought him to make this film. And then, you know, there were a number of like pretty distinguished movie business veterans working on this. However, they seem to kind of be like running for the exits now that the film has actually come out.

12:52I read some reporting in Rolling Stone that said something like two thirds of them have asked to have their names removed from the credits. So, yeah, they had a lot of money. They had an experienced team. And again, I think what is just, you know, really important and interesting to keep in mind is that Melania was an executive producer and had total control. So what you're seeing in this film is, for better or worse, exactly what she wanted you to see. What's unfortunate is, like, it seems like there is an interesting documentary to be made about Melania, and we just maybe were never meant to get one.

13:30Would you agree with that? Like, what things would you have liked to see the movie do more with? Or even what things did you just kind of expect would be in there because they're kind of a core part of how we understand her? Like, just thinking about how she's an immigrant, for example. I feel like you could watch that entire movie and maybe not even, I mean, it's clear from, like, the accent, but it's not like she's talking about her childhood in that way. Well, you know, I talked about, like, the conspicuous absence of casual kind of, like, scenes that would help to get us to know Melania better.

14:01But something else that really struck me is, like, usually in a film like this, particularly one that's going to have a very soft touch and present its subject in kind of the rosiest way possible, you would absolutely expect that it would lean heavily on archival material. But in Melania, we're told, for instance, you know, her father makes a short appearance, and we're told that he's an avid videographer. Yet we do not see, like, a single baby picture of Melania. We don't see family mementos. we don't see any of this kind of stuff. This just like low hanging, you know, emotionally accessible stuff that you would expect a documentary that's also kind of, you know, a biography to use and to deploy to its own advantage.

14:46So I just thought, I mean, I thought that was super interesting that, you know, Melania was born in what was then Yugoslavia in 1970. She was raised in this communist apartment block. she came to the U.S. as a model on an H-1B visa for highly skilled workers, which, by the way, is a program that Trump has gutted, and he's now charging$100 ,000 for applications for those visas. So I don't know. I don't know if it's that her biography very quickly gets into issues that become thorny and hypocritical. I have to believe that, again, because we are seeing what Melania wants to see. She's not somebody who's trying to let people in, who's trying to be relatable.

15:27She's very discreet. You know, she just doesn't let her guard down in any way. So yeah, I just, I thought it was like really, really interesting that she chose not to tell us much more about herself, whether that is for political reasons or, you know, personal ones. But we don't learn much more about her than what we already know. Yeah, I feel like I know less about her now that I've seen the film. Like, I feel like I understand her and her role even less than I did before, which is, like, saying a lot because I didn't feel like I understood her much before I watched the film. Let's take a quick break, and then when we return, I want to talk more about Melania's biography and her tenure as First Lady.

16:11This is the political scene from The New Yorker.

16:24Wired has always put a microscope on the people, power, and forces shaping our world. Uncanny Valley brings that same fearless reporting straight to your feed. Is Doge finally over? Will AI actually democratize American health care? Each week, Wired journalists from across the newsroom are going to unpack where politics, technology, and Silicon Valley collide. From conversations with tech leaders across Silicon Valley, internet fandom investigations, and government crackdowns on rigged gambling, we're taking you all over the news cycle, going straight inside the priorities, pressures, and power plays driving today's biggest decisions.

17:01Uncanny Valley tackles the questions keeping you up at night and helps make sense of the future taking shape right now. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

17:23So, Lauren, let's talk a little bit about Melania herself and, you know, some of the stuff that didn't actually make it into the film. You wrote a profile of her that appeared in the magazine in May of 2016, which was before Trump was actually elected for the first time. And it was also before Melania seemingly plagiarized sections of a Michelle Obama speech during the 2016 RNC, as well as before Trump's Access Hollywood tape scandal. So it was kind of like, you know, there was a lot of interesting stuff that would come sort of after the piece came out. But when you were working on that story, what was your understanding of who Melania was and what kind of first lady she'd potentially be?

18:00Okay, well, yes, I was a little early to the Melania party, but I was really interested in her for a few reasons. Um, one of them is, you know, as we discussed the fact that she's an immigrant, I mean, I thought, like, let's just establish Trump's entire life, you know, he's been surrounded by, dependent on, um, immigrant women have characterized his life. So his mother, Mary, was an immigrant from Scotland. His first wife, Ivana, was a Czech immigrant. She immigrated from what was then Czechoslovakia. And Melania was born in what was then Yugoslavia, is now Slovenia, and eventually became an American citizen.

18:45But so 2016 election, this is, you know, when Trump, you know, he's been questioning Barack Obama's citizenship with all the birther stuff. He is, you know, ranting about letting immigrant rapists and criminals into the country. And so I wrote, you know, thinking about these women in his life, that if he really wanted to keep immigrants out, he should have built a wall around his pants. I mean, it was just so, so hypocritical, so typical Trump, like one rule for everybody else and another for me. And so I was just like, you know, really interested in her story and how Trump sort of like branded her as like, you know, another one of his properties.

19:31And she took on all these aspects of his life. But this wasn't like reciprocal at all. I mean, there's no evidence that he's gotten to know her culture, her language. I don't know what the case is now, but at the time when I wrote in 2016, he had been to Slovenia, her home country, one time for three hours before they got married. He like had a Diet Coke, an onion escalope, met her parents and got right back in the plane and took off. And so, yeah, I was just fascinated by how someone who comes from such a different background and who has personal, you know, lived experience of so many of the things that Trump from then on has been so cruel about and ignorant of.

20:16I mean, I kind of thought of it. I think I wrote this at the time, but it was like she took on all his attributes. It was like the marital version of people who look like their dogs. she internalized like his ahistoricism his just like shamelessness this unblinking ability to say things that everybody knows are not true and also these false dichotomies between you know these murderous criminals and deserving citizens like her you know I kind of got into her immigration story right beginning with this h1b visa that is no longer available and accessible to so many, you know, young immigrants like her.

20:54And her answer was like, I never thought about breaking the rules. Like, you have to follow the rules. And, you know, you get on a plane to Europe and fly back if that's what you need to do. So what stands out to you from Melania's first tenure as First Lady? Or how would you characterize it? I mean, I think Melania's first tenure is, of course, remembered for like, you know, there were the memes, there were the creepy Christmas decorations. I think, honestly, what she'll probably be most remembered for is wearing the I really don't care, do you army jacket on a trip to unbelievably visit a detention center for child migrants.

21:36But, you know, I guess if you ask Melania, I think her focus in her first term was the strangely superlatively named Be Best initiative, which was meant to combat bullying and online abuse, both of which I think are very, you know, noble causes, however, somewhat undercut by the fact that her husband is probably the world's biggest online bully and abuser. And I will say just one thing about that jacket. Like, my memory is that it was, like, a jacket from Zara that was like less than$40. And after having watched the documentary, I am like more sure than I ever was that like that jacket was an intentional decision because like she clearly wears designer clothing almost exclusively.

22:22And she puts a lot of thought into like what she was wearing on a given day. There's no way that she was just wearing that. I want to know, like Tyler, one day we will get to the bottom of this, maybe in Melania, the documentary part too. But like, how did she source that thing? I mean, Melania is not like at the King of Prussia mall rifling through the racks of Zara. Do you think it was her algorithm? It was like, you know, adjacent to like migrant detention likes fashion. How about I really don't care to you like Zara jacket? I mean, where did that come from? It's it's it remains a mystery. Yeah, just like everything about her.

23:06But yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I actually it's not like she was walking by Zara one day and saw it. Right. If the only achievement of the film were either to answer questions about the jacket, I would have left a very satisfied popcorn munching customer. However, that would be worth 40 million dollars. Neither of those levels, nor many others. So what you were saying about Melania taking on these different attributes of Trump, like his shamelessness, and you even, I think, mentioned in the piece that Melania has like a tendency to exaggerate. Like she described her mother as a fashion designer who worked in the industry for a long time, whereas she was actually an employee at a state owned textile factory in Slovenia for more than 30 years.

23:48She was a pattern maker. So, I mean, do you think that that is like kind of the key to understanding her relationship with Trump, like her willingness to kind of go along with it and play the role that she needs to play? Because I was kind of hoping that the documentary would shed some insight on their relationship, which I think like, you know, I think there's like a subset of people, particularly liberals, who like kind of imagine that Melania and Trump's marriage is just hanging on by a thread and that this has been kind of buttressed by the awkward scenes of them like, you know, like her not wanting to hold his hand or even like at the inauguration when he's struggling to kiss her under the hat, which is like another thing that I would have appreciated like a joke about or some like discussion of whether the hat was like going to get in.

24:31in the way of things. Right, whether the hat was like a dawn blocker or not. No, I mean, no. Like, what do I know after watching Melania? But I do think that is a liberal fantasy in a way. I mean, they do not seem to spend much time together either in the film or life. But, you know, from everything she's ever said, she seems to be very proud of him and to be totally on board. You know, even in the seemingly like most sensitive areas where you would think, again, like she might have a different view, you know, whether whether she's private about it or not. No, this film gives no suggestion that she has any qualms or reservations or hesitations about any part of his project.

25:23I will say I was interested when she came out with her memoir not that long ago that there was like this passage that a lot of people were kind of like freaking out about, which was her kind of coming out as like someone who was receptive to the idea of a woman's right to choose. And I guess that makes me wonder what your sense is of like what her priorities or convictions are, if there are any, including that one, that kind of make her kind of stand apart from Trump. Do we have a sense of that stuff like at all beyond like that one line in the memoir, basically? No. I mean, do you seriously like I want to have a conversation about this because.

26:02Okay, so she did choose to include an encounter with Aviva Siegel, who was a freed Hamas hostage who at that moment was lobbying for the liberation of her husband who was still being held. And again, like not a lot of substance. I mean, I would say the fact that she chose to put it in the film suggests that she wants to, you know, make a show of support for Israel and for the hostages. But in the conversation, you know, she sits down with the woman who has clearly been through a great deal of trauma. And the conversation very quickly turns to her T-shirt. And it's just like, you know, you know, the woman is like, becomes a prop in this set piece about Melania showing empathy.

26:55And she says, oh, it's a great T-shirt. You know, it's got her husband's face on it. Isn't he beautiful? And it becomes kind of another fashion moment. So this film, I think, like Melania herself, is very, very light on substance, light on details. No, did not illuminate much to me about the inner policy wonk in Melania. And I would be surprised to what extent that is her interest. Yeah, I did not get a good sense from the film or even from anything she's like ever said over time about her like political priorities. I do feel like the thing that came out was at least her desire to be perceived as a good mom and, you know, kind of like an ally to women.