The U.F.C. President, Dana White, on Donald Trump: “He’s Not a Racist”

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2:59You're listening to The Political Scene. I'm David Remnick. Early each week, we bring you a conversation from our episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. There will be a variety of celebrations to honor America's 250th anniversary this year. And much of it can be easily anticipated. Plenty of fireworks, buildings bathed in red, white and blue lights, even a military parade. But something else is happening. Something that probably would not be happening if anyone other than Donald Trump was in the White House.

3:44It sounds crazy. I know it's going to be very high security and high stress and weird to have a fight at the White House in the middle of a fucking war. I would hope the war will be sorted out by June, but quite honestly, I'm not confident that that's going to be the case. No. Yeah, no. Yeah, so that would be weird. That's Joe Rogan describing the upcoming fight on the South Lawn of the White House, put on by UFC, the ultimate fighting championship. That's the Premier League for Mixed Martial Arts, where fighters call on a variety of styles from around the world, and it's arguably the most brutal professional sport and also one of the most popular.

4:23UFC was founded in 1993, but it wasn't a big success until Dana White took over as president of the company in 2001. It kept growing and growing until last year, the UFC cut a broadcast deal with Paramount for$7.7 billion. Dana White has also been friends with Donald Trump for a quarter century, and he's been one of the president's most influential supporters. And we also have a man, Dana White, who has done some job.

4:59He's that tough guy. I recently sat down with Dana White to find out more about his remarkable rise to prominence and his relationship with the president of the United States. I've got to figure that our audience, let me put it this way, not all of them watch UFC fights regularly. Let's put it that way. But I think you would also be surprised in who is and who isn't a UFC fan. So where does this all come from? We know about the origins of boxing. People have been fighting forever for sport and otherwise. This form of fighting comes from where? In the early 90s, a bunch of television guys, local guy here from New York named Bob Meyerowitz, got together and said, let's answer the age-old question of which fighting style is the best.

5:50We put a boxer against a wrestler, kung fu versus karate and all these type of things. and they did the first one, and it rivaled the WWE and boxing pay-per-views at the time. So they were like, wow, we got something here. So they did another one and another one. What they never realized at the time is that they were building a sport. And the answer to that age-old question is, no one fighting style is the best. You have to have a little piece of everything to be a complete fighter. And Bruce Lee was saying that in the 60s. So I went to see, when I was a kid, I went to see what was called closed circuit, in a movie theater.

6:26Muhammad Ali fight a Japanese Rikinoki was his name. And the wrestler just stayed on his back and kept kicking Ali in the shins. It was not exciting, I got to tell you. It's very true. But UFC has what kind of rules? You get into this octagon, two men or two women, and then what? So what you're saying is exactly right. When you started pitting style versus style, it wasn't very exciting. And there was a lot of stalling. And when we bought the UFC, back in 2001, we ran toward regulation, meaning to have the athletic commissions in each state oversee us. What are the rules for the uninitiated? Two fighters get into the octagon, this kind of padded ring with kind of a fence around it.

7:13And then I've got these gloves that aren't quite boxing gloves on me. Maybe they protect my hands. Maybe they don't. They do. That's right. And then you just go in and you'll, forgive me, You go to beat the living crap out of the other guy. What's allowed? What's not? Because in boxing, you can't hit below the belt. You can't do that here. There's most of the same type of rules, except this can go to the ground where you can use submissions. You can strike on the ground. What's a submission? A submission is where probably— What used to be called the sleeper hold in professional wrestling? Yeah, that's what I was just going to say.

7:46Probably the best one is called the rear naked choke where you get the choke in and the guy either taps out or he goes to sleep. Yeah. So the sleeper hold. Goes to sleep is a euphemism. No, no. So what you do is the choke closes the carotid arteries, which slows the blood flow to the brain and makes you go to sleep. Okay. I think I just sensed a lot of people passing out at home. So how dangerous is this compared to boxing and the other martial arts? This is how dangerous it is. 30 years, never had a death or serious injury. Cheerleading can't say that, okay? And six to seven boxers die a year.

8:22Nobody's ever died. 30 years. When you spend the money on the proper medical attention before they get in, during the fight, and after the fight, you eliminate a lot of the risks in the sport. What about injury down the line? We all know the effects of football, CTEs and the rest. And, you know, I've met a lot of boxers who might have their wits about them when they're active, but years later, you've met them too. Absolutely. Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali, many, many other fighters that I've met and tried to interview. They've really lost it. And it's very clear that this is the result of, you know, just repetitive blows to the head.

9:00Yep, absolutely. Are you saying that UFC is free of that? No. Anytime you're taking shots to the head, it is very bad for you. So how do you justify it? You don't. Um, you know, you have grown adults who choose to do this for a living and this is what they want to do. They make this. It's not like that thing that went on in the NFL where they thought helmets were protecting their brains, you know, everybody that goes into this knows that getting punched in the head is bad for you. Yeah. What's the appeal to you? How did you get into this? So I was, uh, uh, you know, a big fan of boxing and grew up loving boxing was my favorite sport.

9:42And I went to high school with these guys, the Fertitta brothers. They own station casinos in Las Vegas. You grew up in the East Coast and then you moved to Las Vegas. I moved to Las Vegas when I was in fifth grade. And I ended up going to high school with these guys. And one night, Frank Fertitta and I were at the Hard Rock in Las Vegas. And there was a fighter there named John Lewis who fought in the UFC. And he had a jujitsu school. And Frank said, I've always wanted to learn jujitsu. So we went over and talked to him. we set up a private lesson on Monday and we became obsessed we started training you know four or five times a week in jujitsu and through that we started to meet a lot of the fighters that fought in the UFC and we were blown away most of these guys you know it wasn't the same story as boxing boxing story is I came from the mean streets of such and such and if it wasn't for boxing I'd be dead or in jail right the complete opposite with UFC fighters most of these why would that be because when you think about if your parents put you in martial arts when you were young, your parents had money.

10:44And a lot of these guys were college wrestlers, so they all went to college. Like Chuck Liddell. Do you know who Chuck Liddell is? Tell everybody. The stereotypical ultimate fighter, if you saw him, he's got a mohawk, big, mean-looking guy with a Fu Manchu. He looks like an axe murderer, If you saw the guy, he graduated from Cal Poly with a degree in accounting. So these were the type of guys that were fighting in the UFC. And I thought that their stories were very interesting. And the truth is, if you've ever been to a UFC fight, anybody who's listening right now that's been, it is the most exciting live sporting event you will ever see.

11:27There's so many different ways to win and lose. And just the energy and the buzz inside the building is amazing. What do you mean there's so many ways to win and lose? So in boxing, I punch you to the head or body more times than you punch me to the head or body and I win or I knock you out. In the UFC, you can do all of that too. But you can also kick, knee, elbow, punch. It can go to the ground where you fight for submission. So it's just – it's nonstop action. Tell me this, Dana. I wrote a book about Muhammad Ali long ago. I think we both agree he might be the greatest, even athlete who ever lived.

12:01Certainly the most exciting in my lifetime. Or human. Who's the Muhammad Ali of the UFC in your estimation and why? Well, we have a guy named Conor McGregor who I would say is like our Muhammad Ali. But if you're looking for your Michael Jordan, it would be John Jones who is the greatest. And why is that? Tell us about Jon Jones and why he did that. So Jon Jones is undefeated still. He's never been beat. And he's moved up and down weight classes. It's very, very unique and hard to be undefeated in the UFC. How did you buy UFC? Because you seem to, in retrospect, have bought it for a song. Yeah,$2 million.

12:42So when we were training in jiu-jitsu and we started to meet a lot of the fighters, I started to manage some of the guys. and I got into a contract dispute with the old owner, Bob Meyerowitz, and Bob said, you know what? There is no more money, okay? I don't even know if I can afford to put on the next event. We hung up and I said, wow, that's interesting. I called my partners, Lorenzo and Frank Fertitta, and said, I just got off the phone with the owner of the UFC. I think they're going bankrupt. They're in trouble and we should buy them. wasn't it kind of risky you had senator john mccain who's nobody's idea of a wimp god knows call mma human cockfighting right how do you respond to that yeah um you know i i think that without senator john mccain i probably wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation with you right now you know tell me why you know his stance on the ufc drove them toward and not only them but us when we bought it toward regulation and being regulated by the athletic commissions in each state.

13:46This many people want to see a freak show. This many people want to see a real sport. So what separated it from the old form to the new form? What were the regulations that were put into place? It used to be banned in 36 states. Well, here's what happened. Well, think about this. It wasn't allowed on pay-per-view. You as a grown adult didn't have the option to buy it a porn was on pay-per-view. UFC was not allowed. So when we bought it for $2 million, our goal was to get it back on free television, which everybody thought was impossible. So what were the regulations put into place so that it was no longer a freak show?

14:25So what sort of tripped them up early was them sensationalizing it like two men enter the octagon one man leaves the most brutal bloody violent sport in the world you know uh there are no rules there's this you know that's just hype right you hear that in boxing too but at the time um and i was involved in boxing and when the first one was coming nobody believed it was true there's like there's no way this could be real that that this is going to happen and uh it was real it did happen and everybody tuned in because of the sensationalism but that eventually ended up biting him in the end. How so?

15:03Because Senator John McCain went after it and said, this is disgusting. Think about at this time. And again, when you and I grew up, right? John Wayne movie, John Wayne would hit a guy, right? Guy would go down. John Wayne didn't jump on top of him and start pounding him. He'd stand him back up and he'd hit him again. You didn't do that. You didn't jump on a guy when he was down. You didn't hit a man when he was down. What do you tell the referees? At what point do the referees jump in and stop the proceedings? Because sometimes somebody will go down and then the other fighter will jump on him and start punching him mercilessly in the head it's the fighter's job to keep going i assume well it's the referee's job to do what it's the fighter's job to protect himself at all times and if the referee feels like he can't anymore and the fight needs to be stopped he stops it no different than boxing i mean you've seen some boxing fights where the guy's out on his feet yeah but i've seen some terrible terrible Stoppages.

15:57I agree. You'll see it in the UFC too. There's terrible refereeing sometimes in the UFC. But you're saying it's terrible because they're too hesitant to stop it or too quick to stop it? Both. So sometimes they're too quick. Sometimes they're too late. You know, there's terrible refereeing in boxing, UFC, basketball, the NFL. I mean, you're always going to have some human error. What is the breakdown of fans, men and women? uh well a lot more women now than there was in the beginning in the beginning well because you have women fighters my my my base was males 18 to 34 i mean it was a no-brainer really you know i went through covid right i don't own brick and mortar all i need to do is set up an octagon somewhere and beam it you know back then i was on espn beam it to espn and our business grew like 77 % during COVID.

16:50And a lot of them were women. Wow. I've noticed that there are a lot of foreign-born fighters in the UFC, and a lot of them come from Dagestan, Georgia, Chechnya, Uzbekistan. Is it a challenge to try to market the UFC when you have so many foreign fighters or it doesn't really matter? No, no. You know, people ask me, what about language barriers? What about this? You can be a deaf mute, okay? If you are the baddest man or woman in the world, people want to watch you. If you have that Conor McGregor, that Muhammad Ali thing, I mean, that's just a... Okay, tell me about Conor McGregor. What does Conor McGregor have that separates him out?

17:32He has that ability that when he walks into a room, people just, you know, are fascinated by them, to listen to them. They're funny. They have incredible magnetic personalities. and they're real personalities you know or they put on in the way that pro wrestlers of my childhood and then after some are yeah some are have the thing that they turn on when the conor mcgregor has like like muhammad ali was the same guy in the living room with his wife and kids that he was when you saw him on tv yeah and and conor mcgregor's the same why do you think ufc has taken off now. What is it about the culture, the other sports, the media sphere?

18:14Why now? Well, I have this philosophy that no matter what color you are, what country you come from, what language you speak, we're all human beings and fighting's in our DNA. We get it and we like it. Even a sophisticated guy like you that writes for the New Yorker and whatever, if a fight broke out in here right now, it would create this sort of energy in here with you and I and we'd be like, oh, wow. And we would watch the fight play out. It's just, as humans, it's just... You think it's just in us. It's in us, absolutely. Is that something ugly in us? I don't know about ugly. We're all fighters.

18:53Even everybody listening to this show right now, we get up every day and we battle something. We all have to fight. When you get out of bed every morning, life is standing right there to kick you in the face. I've noticed. I've noticed.

19:15I'm speaking with Dana White, president and CEO of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. We'll continue in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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21:07This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking with Dana White, the president and CEO of UFC. Donald Trump was an early supporter of UFC when the league was just getting started in popularity. Dana White, in turn, has stumped for the president at many rallies, and he spoke on his behalf at the last three Republican national conventions, as well as at Trump's victory party in 2024. As Joe Rogan and many others are now wavering in their support for Trump, I asked Dana White how he feels about this second term. We'll continue our conversation now. Dana, I think you've got to give me credit for going 17 minutes or whatever it is without mentioning Donald Trump's name.

21:52But you're associated with him. I'm not associated with him. He's one of my very, very good friends. Okay. You spoke for him at the nominating conventions. Yeah. I think at the victory celebration, you were one of the speakers right there with him. Which I didn't see coming. That was not planned. Why? Tell me a bit about the origins of your relationship with Donald Trump. I don't know if it's political in origin or just maybe it's just USA. Farthest thing from political. So when we started this, all the things that we've talked about in buying and building the UFC. Now, imagine if this wasn't allowed on pay-per-view, imagine venues, arenas, did not want us.

22:36What kind of people would show up to see an event like this, human cockfighting? so Donald Trump owned the Atlantic City casinos at the time and he had us come to the Taj the Taj Mahal for the first fight that we did UFC 30 we did UFC 30 and UFC 31 at the Taj Mahal what year is this? 2001 he showed up for the first fight of the night and stayed till the end both times that we went there and every good thing that ever happened to me in my career after that, he was always the first guy to reach out and say, congratulations. I always knew this was going to be big. I knew you were going to. What did he like about it?

23:19Well, I think he's a fight fan. You know, talk about a fighter. I mean, that guy's a fighter. One of the most resilient human beings I've ever met in my life. And he had the big Tyson fights and boxing matches at his place. So he's a fight fan. and the guy has always been a good friend to me. And then in 2015, when he decided he was going to run, he reached out to me and he said, I would be honored if you'd speak for me. Well, this is the way he said it. He called me and said, if you don't want to do this, I completely understand, but I would be honored if you would speak for me at the Republican convention.

23:58And everybody told me not to do it. First, Donald has great business instincts. He supports businesses of all sizes. He'll make it possible for them to grow and succeed, which is the backbone of a strong economy. Second, Donald is a hard worker. This guy's gonna get up there, he's gonna roll up his sleeves. He will work with people, and he will put in the time to get things done. One, third, for over 15 years, Donald Trump has been a loyal and supportive friend. Well, Dana, tell me a little bit what your politics were like up until then. And what was your sense of his politics up until then? I would say that my politics have always been common sense, down the middle, leaning a little left.

24:50That's what I would say I was. In what sense? um in my 20s i you know my late teens and 20s i spent massachusetts which is very liberal um and uh yeah i would consider myself a a 80s 90s democrat have you changed over time politically no i haven't changed remain a kind of center-left democrat yeah i would yeah yeah do you talk politics with trump or did you before the first convention no that wasn't that wasn't a currency of your conversation of your relationship any of my speeches uh at the conventions or any of that i don't ever say the the left is wrong or the left is bad or the left is this i spoke about who he is as a person and as a friend and as a human being because a lot of the, you know, the narrative that they put out there about him and who he is as a person is gross and absolutely positively not true.

25:58Okay. So let's dig into that a little bit. I think it's fair to say that if he has that reputation, it doesn't come from outer space. Oh, it does. It comes from politics. That's where it comes from. It comes from. Doesn't it come from some of his rhetoric and some of his way of treating people and talking about people. No, I think that, listen, you know, did I wish that back in the day he'd stay off Twitter a little bit more and things like, listen, he's a tough guy and, you know, he's not afraid to give his opinion, but he's been talking about politics since he was young. I mean, if you look back at him, but you know, these things that he's a racist and he's a Nazi and he's this and that.

26:37I mean, Donald Trump, all this stuff's coming out now. You know, know the michael movie just came out and you see all these videos now popping up of of trump defending michael jackson and the type of person that he was and that michael jackson was around his children and around his family a lot um wait a minute dana michael jackson as talented as he was as brilliant as he was was a deeply deeply flawed human being no doubt about least and was it was was abusive everything we know about him wait wait that he was abusive kids yes it's terrible I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true.