Why Susan Collins Has Lasted So Long

24:07Like, for example, the Trump administration really wanted to cut the budget for the NIH. And instead of doing that, she's actually added to the budget of the NIH. So this is a lot of power. It's a really, really important position in the Senate. And it's a lot of power for shaping where all of the taxpayer dollars that are in discretionary spending go to pay for stuff in the U.S. government. Based on the time that you spent in Maine reporting this piece, to what degree does the average Maine voter feel or notice the money that Collins brings in? Like aside from the very obvious people who would directly benefit from this funding, like people who work in the logging or fishing industries?

24:45You know, I think more than I've ever encountered, there was a lot of awareness around the Susan Collins money machine in Maine. I think part of this is due to her aggressive advertising on the issue. This is really how she's selling herself in Maine. And it's been a reputation for many years. But, you know, I heard stories of people who could really rattle off to the dollar the specific per person amount that she has brought home to Maine. And that's just really unusual in politics. And I encountered a wide range of opinions from people on what to make of that money. A lot of them, of course, were grateful.

25:22And they said that it was so great that she had worked with them on this and, you know, touted the benefits of their project. They're all nonprofits or state or local governments. So, you know, it's stuff that everybody can get behind. It's like building a stream for the brook trout to be able to go from one place to another. Everybody can get behind the brook trout. But a lot of people felt conflicted about whether that clear demonstrated ability to bring home money for Maine was actually what it would take to get them personally to vote for Susan Collins to go back to Washington or to get other people in Maine to be convinced that she was doing her job in the way that they wished.

25:58Yeah, and I want to talk more about that later. You mentioned earlier that Jackson's attack on Collins, that like this kind of speaks to her relationship with Trump and how he might be covering something up for her, how that kind of falls apart if you know anything about her relationship with Trump, which feels like a good segue into a discussion of what her relationship with Trump is. I mean, how would you characterize that? I would say tortured is maybe a good word to use. She has tried to support the president when she can. She has also taken several stances against the president in a way that has been really displeasing to the president.

26:34She told me a story about him calling her up while she was on the floor. They were talking about a war powers resolution, and she was going to support the war powers resolution, which puts a check on the president and his international adventures. And he calls her up, and you're not supposed to take phone calls on the floor. So she went to the cloakroom to take the call. She knew it was from the White House. She didn't know it was the president. She puts the phone to her ear. It's the president of the United States. He reams her out. She just decides to be silent and listen. And he says, Susan, Susan, are you listening?

27:00And she says, I'm just listening to the president of the United States make his points. But then she told me she went back onto the floor and she didn't change her mind. She didn't change her vote. So, you know, that dynamic, I think, is really there and has been there for a long time, even when President Trump was in office the first time around. I don't think that Susan Collins wishes to be seen as part of the resistance, but I think she's very politically savvy. And she understands that she cannot be lockstep with the president. And she has at least said to me that when she has taken votes that have been against the president, she's done so after tremendous deliberation.

27:34One factor is how that vote will affect Maine. And one factor is on the merits. You know, for example, she didn't think that Kash Patel was qualified to lead the FBI on the merits. She didn't think that Pete Hegseth was qualified to lead on the merits. But she's also defied the Trump administration in ways that are very narrow to Maine, very specific to Maine. So, you know, quizzing the trade representative, Jameson Greer, about blueberries and what will happen to blueberries in Maine, which is a big, big industry in Maine. I don't want to make fun of the blueberry industry. I love blueberries.

28:04My kids love blueberries. But she has really been really narrowly tailored in how she thinks about things like the Canadian tariffs and how that might affect really specific industries in Maine. How has she managed to navigate the issue of abortion, given that she is famously one of those moderate Republicans who supports abortion rights, but then she voted to confirm Brett Kavanaugh, who later joined the Supreme Court majority that overturned Roe v. Wade? This has been an issue that has dogged her. And I think for some subset of voters, it certainly is the issue. I heard that from voters. You know, she is the person who got rid of abortion, which is not true.

28:42But people really directly pin that vote and her vote on the truth of the matter in the country, which is abortion is no longer legal and protected across the country constitutionally. I will say one of the interesting dynamics here is that Maine has some of the strongest protections for abortion rights in the entire United States. And the state legislature has proceeded to protect and strengthen those rights since Roe fell. So there's an interesting dynamic, which is people in Maine have not lost their ability to get an abortion. But the principle of the thing matters to them. And this is where I think that pitch of being really mean specific and, you know, I'm doing what's right for your state and your interests, your situation, I think it falls short for people because people care about the principle of the thing.

29:34They care about Roe having been this constitutional protection for abortion around the country for women everywhere. And they blame her for that going away even if they themselves have not suffered. On that note, you spoke with one community leader who said something that I found really interesting in the piece, which is that Susan Collins is better for Maine. A Democrat in the seat will be better for the country. Can you explain what he meant by that? And was that a sentiment that a lot of voters you spoke with seemed to share? So this person was one of those community leaders that I had mentioned before.

30:06You know, I spoke to a lot of community leaders. Some of them received these congressionally directed funds. So people who are really read into the process in one way or another around congressionally directed spending. And this person who was keenly aware of the power of an appropriator, so really read in to that and made this case that Maine is a small state. It's often forgotten and or it feels like it's forgotten. And that if Susan Collins were not in that Senate seat, not only would there be less of that seniority in terms of the Appropriations Committee and other committees, but just sort of less sway in general from having this senior senator around.

30:45But, you know, this feeling that Maine would sort of get lost in the shuffle. It would just go back to being the deprioritized state, right? But on the other hand, there's this recognition that when you send someone to Washington, you are voting for a team. and that playing for the team is just an inevitable part of the job. And I think for this person and for lots of people I talk to, that tension was really clear, which is believing that Susan Collins actually has done and can do really important things for the state of Maine and securing funds and protecting the state's interests, but also feeling that they don't like the team that she plays for and that they can't avoid the fact that being a senator involves playing for that team.

31:27In a minute, we'll talk more about what this race can tell us about populism, the vanishing moderate, and whether bringing home the bacon is still something that voters care about. This is The Political Scene from The New Yorker.

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33:46One way that I've been thinking about the Maine Senate race is as a kind of referendum on whether Collins' brand of politics, both as a moderate Republican and as an old-school senator known for bringing home money to her state, can even survive. And I want to go back to what we were talking about before the break, which is that some voters might be making a tradeoff by voting against the candidate who they might stand to benefit more from on a personal level. One of the resources for this piece was a political science professor at Tufts University who said that voters have a hobbyist tendency where they cast ballots to feel connected to important things like big national fights and where their vote is more expressive than it is instrumental.

34:24But isn't that exactly how voters should think about a Senate race? Like a senator isn't a mayor. They're a national legislator who will vote on things like ICE funding. And so the expressive critique makes more sense to me when you're talking about like a city council candidate who issued a statement on Gaza that you might agree with, even though this person has nothing to do with like America's stance toward Israel or something. But if you want ICE abolished, electing a senator who will vote to abolish it is instrumental, right? So that's Eitan Hirsch, who is this Tufts political scientist, and he has a book, Politics for Power, which is all about this question of how do you actually elect people who are going to do stuff for you and can get stuff done.

35:06And so, you know, this is sort of his shtick, is thinking about politics in that really instrumental way. I would say that his worldview also involves a sort of practical reality, or at least what he sees as practical reality, which is it's really hard to get stuff done in Washington. So there's this sort of view around incrementalism, which is if you're a moderate who works in deals and coalitions, then you are more likely to be successful in an incrementalist environment because that is all that you will ever get is incremental change. Okay, that's one worldview. Another worldview would say, actually, what we need is wholesale change in Washington.

35:45We need to send in a slate of Democrats who will undo everything Trump has done. They will make radical changes to things like ICE. They will take on huge things like Citizens United, which, of course, undoing Citizens United would take an enormous almost act of God to actually happen to rein in spending in politics. And even if that did happen, people would probably still be worried about it. But nonetheless, you should send people who want to take on those kinds of big ambitious things and not be caught up in this limited view incrementalist thing because then you don't have anybody who actually wants to change anything.

36:19They would say, you know, that's the swamp. That's why the swamp has been able to stay because of this attitude. So, you know, there's sort of an assessment of reality that's going on there. But I do think that the expressive versus instrumental framing is relevant here, especially when you come back to that priorities list on Troy Jackson's website, all of those hit list items that you would see on any other progressive Democrats website, because a lot of those are things that are just wish lists. They're wish lists that are probably never going to happen in Congress and that certainly Troy Jackson himself would not be able to implement.

36:54And it is expressing your view of the world to vote for that priority list, to say this is what I think is good. This is where I think things should go. It is not necessarily a reflection of what Troy Jackson can do on a work basis, workman basis when he gets to Washington and is a senator. So would you say that a vote against Collins in some ways is like a vote against incrementalism? Like, is that just like a useful way of looking at this race? I keep thinking about this part in the piece where, you know, Collins is able to get a tariff exemption on Canadian salt and cement. And Jackson kind of mocks her by saying, thank you for the road salt.

37:31Is that in the end going to feed people's families? And it's like regardless of whether you necessarily agree with his priorities list or even think that he can execute on that priorities list if he's elected, I do think that there's something to just that kind of like visceral reaction to like, thanks for the salt. But like what about these other huge problems that senators would ideally be focused on right now? Yeah, I think that's the criticism of Collins from people on the left, one of many criticisms of her, which is that she's focused on small potatoes. Potatoes are actually an important industry.

38:02Literally potatoes. You know, the issues that are not the big picture issues. And if you're a Democrat who believes that, you know, Trump is undermining democracy and that, you know, we're careening towards fascism. And, you know, if you believe that there are these endemic, horrible, huge systemic problems in Washington, then I can understand how it would be enraging to see her touting this achievement to have this one narrow carve out from the tariffs, which is road salt and cement and say, oh, yes, this is a huge victory. Because it's sort of like that meme about the dog who's sitting in the kitchen while there's all the flames licking the kitchen, you know, and he's drinking the coffee and saying everything is fine.

38:42I think that's how people feel. And when they encounter that meme, but it's their U.S. senator who's sitting surrounded by the flames, I think people feel enraged. I think they feel like they aren't spoken for and aren't represented. But there is a flip perspective, which is important to air. And again, you know, I'm rehearsing this for the sake of argument from people who I've talked to who represent both perspectives. You know, on the flip side, it actually matters to have that exemption on the tariffs on cement. I talked to somebody who was an owner of a cement company. He was also a longtime Republican and ally of Susan Collins.

39:14So, of course, he said nice things about her. But he was basically like, look, this would have cost me$150 ,000 a month. It's really important. My company would go under. Like, we wouldn't be able to figure out how to deal with this if not for this exemption. So, in some ways, you can't forget about the brass tacks politics on your way to putting out the fire in the kitchen with the dog and the coffee cup meme, right? Because that affects people's lives. And I think Susan Collins really sees her job as in a very practical, little to big detail way, making sure that those issues are taken care of.

39:50And because Maine is so small, she's actually able to address a lot of them. There are a lot of people who have had those encounters with Susan Collins. It struck me, like, as we were talking earlier about Collins' long list of deliverables, like these practical things she's been able to get done, particularly as it involves, like, infrastructure and that kind of thing, that the Democrats nationally spent a lot of the Biden years on these big infrastructure projects, like$1.2 trillion of funding that went into roads and highways and power grids under the bipartisan infrastructure law. And yet, seven months after that law was passed, only about a quarter of voters even knew that the law had gone through.

40:27And so I guess I'm wondering, like, do you think that that is instructive as we talk about the headwinds that Collins might be facing in November? Or does her career suggest that delivering on infrastructure projects, like, that it can work politically as long as it's local and visible and ideally comes with a ribbon-cutting ceremony? I do think that the local and visible aspect of it is so important. You know, this victory tour that I was talking about earlier this summer, it really is convenient for her that it takes about five years to build a building. And five years ago was when the earmarks came back.

40:57So it's an accident of timing, but it's very nice for her reelection campaign. And so she's very visible in the state in that way. And she's cut a bunch of ads that are exactly about that. You know, it's about a breakwater that was destroyed and she was able to make an emergency midnight phone call and she was able to fix it. So I think there is a lot of visibility around those things that she has been able to deliver. Now, again, I think there are people who would say, you know, fine, you built this bridge or fine, you did this, fine, you did that, but you're forgetting about all this other stuff.

41:30On the other hand, you know, I think people do respond to things that they can see. And certainly when I was speaking with voters and community leaders in places like Arrested County, which is really rural, there is a sense of getting funding is really important for rural America. This is part of how we can survive. And we wouldn't be able to do any of the stuff that's important to us if not for the Susan Collins money. So people pay a ton of attention to it because they feel like this is the only way that their needs will be taken care of. Going back to Collins' ideology, I had John Alsop on the podcast a few weeks ago, and we were talking about the degree to which moderate is a term that even means anything anymore.

42:10And I'm wondering if you can explain in what sense exactly you think Susan Collins is a moderate. Well, there are a lot of ways to cut that. So one stat to throw out there is that she has voted with President Trump in the second term around 95 % of the time. So Susan Collins is a Republican. Let's not forget. She is not an independent. She is not some sort of mythical centrist who 50 % of the time is bucking her party. She is most of the time voting with Republicans. Okay, so that's one thing. The second thing is, though, there are these rankings that go around that, you know, get tossed around who is the most centrist bipartisan member of Congress.

42:45One of the most famous ones is the Luger Center and Georgetown University. They put together this ranking. And it's based on introducing bills and co-sponsoring bills. Okay, so on that metric, which is the way that they measure bipartisanship, Susan Collins is at the top of the list of any Democrat and any Republican. She is the most bipartisan. Okay, is that actually a good metric? Well, most legislation that gets introduced doesn't actually go anywhere. So it's a little bit of an irritating stat for her critics because they say that it's basically fake. It doesn't actually mean anything. There was another analysis that the Bangor Daily News, which is a local paper in Maine, they did of Susan Collins taking votes that matter, right?

43:24Decisive votes either for or against her party. Because this is another rap on Susan Collins. She only takes defiance votes when it doesn't matter. This is like the Democrats say, okay, you know, the Republicans set her up. They gave her a good little opportunity. She can look like she's independent and taking a stand, but it's fake. Bangor Daily News did an analysis. they said that actually she doesn't take these decisive votes that often, but she does it basically more than anybody else. So that's another metric relative to other people she's willing to step out on her party. I would say a final way to try to get at this is just a temperament thing, which is what does she think politics is for?

43:58And I would say that that willingness to negotiate, to try to build compromises, to try to reach across the aisle, to try to actually legislate, in other words, I think that that is an increasingly rare posture in the Senate, maybe less so in the Senate than in Congress. I think Congress is maybe a little bit more partisan in this way. But I do think that that attitude is out of vogue. And so in that sense, it's a dispositional thing. Moderation dispositionally suggests that you are not out to destroy the other team. You are not out to take down your enemies. You are out to actually do stuff. And by that metric, I do think that she is moderate.

44:39I mean, I guess what I was getting at there, and you answered it pretty well, but it's just like, what would we actually be losing kind of symbolically if she were to lose in November? Because I think it's probably hard to get people that up in arms about the disappearance of like one of the last moderate Republicans, like for the many people who think of that as like an oxymoron or it's like, or if you're just like a diehard Republican, you're like, good riddance, like Susan Collins wasn't like a true believer anyway. But like, it seems like it's actually that last thing you were talking about that is incredibly rare these days and might not come back if she's gone.

45:11You know, this is one of those things that Eitan Hirsch, that Tufts political science professor, was telling me about that in his research, he's found that most people have at least some pang of nostalgia for some mythical earlier time when there were more people like that in Congress and in the Senate. and that most people can recognize, at least on an intellectual level, that that's a good thing and that they want that. But people have a hard time actually swallowing what that means because that means that sometimes your senator will do stuff that makes you crazy. And I think in Susan Collins' case, that's exactly what has happened.

45:51Thank you so much for being here, Emma. Tyler, it's a pleasure.

45:57Emma Green is a staff writer for The New Yorker. You can find her latest piece, Susan Collins' Main Money Machine, at newyorker.com. This has been The Political Scene from The New Yorker. I'm Tyler Foggett. This episode was produced by John LeMay with mixing by Mike Kutchman and engineering by Pran Bandy. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Our theme music is by Alison Leighton Brown. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next Wednesday. Thank you.

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