Zohran Mamdani Says He's Ready for Donald Trump

0:05You're listening to The Political Scene. I'm David Remnick. Early each week, we bring you a conversation from our episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. It has to cross your mind. I'm 33 years old. I'm running 20 points ahead. The guy that's right behind me has the likability factor of a traffic jam. it's very likely that you're going to be the next mayor of the city with a 115 billion dollar budget a president that calls you a communist half the time and he's threatening the city in many different ways when you go home at night and you're thinking about this emotionally and people are questioning your experience as well naturally simply on the basis of age when you're staring at the ceiling at three o 'clock in the morning, as you must do.

1:07You know, I have to be honest with you. I don't have trouble sleeping. At all. I don't. Because you're walking across the city half the day. I guess I'm quite tired when I get to bed. Zoran Mamdani is running to be mayor of New York City, and the polls have him at least 15 points ahead of Andrew Cuomo. Mamdani is 33. He serves in the state assembly, and he's a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. And a year ago, almost nobody had heard his name. But doubt never enters your mind. A lack of what if I let them down never enters your mind. The weight of that hope is one that I do wrestle with and the responsibility of living up to it.

1:50But doubt, I wouldn't say. In the Democratic primary in June, Mamdani pulled off a huge upset, not unlike Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez did when she ran for Congress as a young Democratic Socialist herself. Mamdani beat former governor Andrew Cuomo, who was trying to stage a political comeback. Cuomo is still in the race as an independent, and the Republican Curtis Sliwa trails long in the distance. It seems on one hand like an astonishing launch for a guy who would be New York's youngest mayor in generations and the first Muslim to hold the office. But this has not been an easy run, not by any stretch.

2:31Mamdani's message of affordability clearly resonates with voters. But his call for more taxes on the rich has spooked the state's governor, Kathy Hochul. In Congress, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries have balked at even endorsing Mamdani. And Donald Trump threatens to withhold federal funds if New Yorkers elect him, calling such a vote a rebellion. He's a communist. We're going to go to a communistic... That's so bad for New York, but the rest of the country is revolting against it. But Zoran Mamdani is clearly very good at this, very good at politics, at connecting to people. And last week I went to his busy campaign office in midtown Manhattan.

3:14It was just four weeks out from Election Day. How are you? How are you, Dan? How good to see you. How good to see you.

3:25You did a very interesting video early on. You've done many videos. But one of the most interesting is you went around the city and asked people why they may have voted for Trump. And you got a range of answers. And then you talked to them further. And some of them resolved the conversation by saying, I'll vote for you. What's your overall impression of why so many New Yorkers voted for Trump? and why would they abandon them in a sense ideologically and vote for a guy from the DSA? You know, I specifically went to two of the neighborhoods that had the largest swings towards Trump. Some of the largest swings were taking place in the hearts of immigrant New York.

4:10And I went to Fordham Road in the Bronx. I went to Hillside Avenue in Queens. and I wanted to ask New Yorkers a question and to listen to them. And when you ask a New Yorker an open-ended question, you do not know where it will take them. And what I was struck by is the focus of two things at once. One, the inability to afford life today in this city and the sense that that which was so difficult to purchase today, be it groceries, be it childcare, be it public transit, be it rent, was far more within reach four years ago. And so a message of a cost of living crisis, a message of cheaper groceries, a message of a more affordable life, very much spoke to the crisis that people were living through.

5:04And amidst this, a diminishing faith in the ideal of democracy, the value of democracy, in part because of its inability to deliver on these material concerns, but also because amidst being told that there wasn't enough money for so much of this kind of an agenda here, there were billions of dollars being sent for wars abroad. And it really stayed with me in that for many of those New Yorkers, and I would argue for many Americans across the country, it's not necessarily a question of making a decision by virtue of the ideological commitments of the candidate in front of you or what organization they consider their political home or their journey at large.

5:53It's a question of do you see yourself in their agenda? Well, you, in a sense, are the first major politician to get the vote of and recognize a huge proportion of our city's population, which is people who are Muslim and or Asian, from South Asian countries as immigrants or children of immigrants. That was a kind of unrecognized thing. We've never had a mayor from that background. And at the same time, you've had your troubles with the black vote. You've been in black churches. You've taken on more advisors to help you with this. But what accounts for your difficulty with black voters in this city?

6:37And will that change? I started this race polling at 1%, and that's being charitable and perhaps rounding up. And in fact, at that point, to be included in a poll was in itself a success. And I remember many of my early conversations in speaking to pastors, trying to get in front of a congregation. And it took quite a few months. And our first church that I spoke in front of was— Because they told you they were with Eric Adams or with Cuomo? Some of it was that. Some of it was, who are you? A reasonable question. A reasonable question for a state assembly member from Western Queens for whom most New Yorkers had no idea.

7:21And the first church that I got into, the church in Crown Heights, was because I had been following up with that pastor, Reverend Rashad Raymond Moore. I had called, I had texted, and then he happened to come to speak in Albany at the governor's state of the state. and I ran down the stairs at the end of that ceremony. And I said, Reverend, how are you? Please, I'd love to. And we set up a meeting and then I went and I spoke at the church. And then from that moment on, this is maybe about February, I would average probably about a church a weekend. And then by the end of it, two churches every Sunday.

7:56And at this point, it's multiple churches on a Sunday and also Seventh Day Adventist Church on a Saturday. And I remember sitting with another pastor in Queens who had endorsed Cuomo in the primary. This is in the spring. And I asked, why did you endorse Cuomo? And he said, I endorsed Mario's son. And I endorsed him because Mario was good to us. And part of the reason I don't begrudge the journey that I've been on, the initial response that many have had, is because I'm not just running against Andrew Cuomo. I'm also running against a legacy of his name and his last name specifically and what that means to so many.

8:34To be of a certain generation, to have any in with Mario Cuomo. And I think that also tells the story that has often been told as if it's a story of race, when I think it's actually more a story of generation. You know, part of the reason we won the primaries is because we won young black voters. And that was part of us winning young voters across the city. And now the work is to earn every single vote beyond that. this focus on affordability is a focus that seeks to build on the work of so many incredible black leaders in this country, but also in this city. And just this past Sunday, I spoke at a church where Dr.

9:17King had actually recuperated in the parsonage of after he was stabbed in 1958. And I stood in that same church and spoke of his quote that he said decades ago, which is what good is having the right to sit at a lunch counter if you can't afford to buy a hamburger but i'm going to ask you a question uh inevitably please about socialism and whenever you're asked this question you quote dr yes i do yes you do it's 1961 call it democracy or call democratic socialism but there must be a better uh distribution of wealth within this country for all of god's children fine however however sir socialism means something to be a social democrat is different from being a democratic socialist.

9:59It's not an academic thing. You know this as well as I do. To be a democratic socialist means you're for democratic means of achieving socialism. But socialism, by any definition, means at least to some degree the state ownership of enterprises, to some degree. And that can vary depending on if you're Edward Bernstein or Karl Marx or whoever you have. Why do you gravitate toward socialism? My journey into calling myself a democratic socialist begins with Bernie's run in 2016. And his campaign was a formative one for me and for many across this country, both in giving us that language, but also in explaining the core tenet of it, which to me continues to be a belief in dignity as the cornerstone of politics.

10:54and that I think that every New Yorker should have whatever they need to live a dignified life. And what I mean by a dignified life is that that which they need is not then something that they can be priced out of. And so the focus of our campaign has been on housing, it's been on child care, it's been on public transit. And in some senses... Forgive me for interrupting. So what you're saying is anything that's a necessity, Housing, food, education should not ever be given over to market instability or prices. It has to be there. It has to be free. No, I think that it has to be a fixture in each and every person's life, right?

11:38My landmark policy on housing in this race is about freezing the rent for rent-stabilized tenants. We live in a - Which has been done previously by non-socialist. Yes, it has. We have a city of eight and a half million people. About two and a half million live in rent-stabilized housing. The city determines the rate of the rent increase or lack thereof of that housing through the rent guidelines border, which the mayor appoints all nine members. And if I believe that housing is a human right, then it is incumbent upon me to use every tool I can to ensure that it is as affordable as possible. And here we have an example of where the city has a direct means by which to ensure that affordability.

12:17How is it being a democratic socialist in your view different from being a social democrat or particularly a liberal member of the democratic party? It often comes back to whether you're willing to fight for these ideals that you hold. There are many people who will say housing is a human right. And yet it oftentimes seems as if it is relegated simply to the use of it as a slogan as opposed to it being something. So by your definition you'll fight harder for it than others. I think that you mean what you say. What separates it from other styles of ideology or politics or theory, to me in practice, has been a separation also of whether you are willing to reckon with the broken system of the broken nature of the system we have around us and taking on the entrenched interests necessary to deliver these kinds of ideals in practice.

13:13You say you reminded us that you worked for Bernie and you were excited about Bernie. I volunteered. Fair enough. I was working very hard. I think in 2012, you also did some work for Obama in Pennsylvania. Am I right? Yes, yes, yes. I went. I think it was not 2012. I think it was actually for the first election. 2008. I think so. But I doorknocked for President Obama, yes. And yet, if I read your generation correctly, there is a distinct disappointment, particularly on the left side of the political spectrum, broadly speaking, with Obama. I wonder how you look back at the Obama experience. I know he called you the morning after you won.

13:54Tell me about that conversation and tell me about your sense of Obama vis-a-vis Bernie. Because it seems to me that you admire Bernie Sanders' politics a grid deal more than Obama's in retrospect. the call the morning after was quite a privilege to receive. And what I appreciated about it so much was that the focus of it was both on the question of hope and the importance of hope in our politics and what the transition to governance looks like. There comes a responsibility with inspiring others and with creating hope is that you must deliver on that. I think in your counterposing of Bernie and of Obama, I also think of it as different points in my own life.

14:43You know, Obama, 2008, I am, I'm sorry to say this, I'm in high school. You're killing me. I know. I just wanted to say sorry before I stabbed you. Yeah, thanks a lot. At least I did it from the front. Yeah. We'll all die someday. Better to know that it's coming.

15:04you were in high school in 2008 i was in high school all right we're gonna let that slide andrew como is probably gonna have a press conference about it tomorrow it's true i was yeah i don't know if you just gained some votes or lost a few it's always a little bit dicey um the good thing about my youth is that i grow older every day yeah join the club but but you know these these years are the end of high school the beginning of college and then through the end of college. And Bernie is a few years after college. And, you know, I think I had this very interesting experience after college where I found out that organizing was a job.

15:46I didn't know you could get paid to organize. And I remember when I was looking for jobs in my second semester of my senior year, the public interest research group was creating something called Change Corps. So I went to Boston for the training and we had incredible cohort of organizers. And we really put through our paces and did a number of kind of capsules and seminars. And then I was posted for my first posting in Seattle. And I ran moveon.org's remote phone banking office. So I took these volunteers that existed online, brought them into a physical space. We made close to 400 ,000 phone calls for that midterm election.

16:23So I go from moveon.org to the Texas Public Interest Research Group, We talk about the Affordable Care Act. I then come back to Denver. And over the course of this time, I am also getting to know my cohort. And we're making maybe about$750 every two weeks. And the way in which we're told to make it work is we find somebody that we can just crash on their couch in whatever city that we're in. And so we start to organize internally and start to put together an aspiration of a union within the organization. and they don't take too well to it. And when we come back to Denver for the mid-year retreat, the organizing starts to build and one member of the cohort is fired who's seen as being particularly disruptive, perhaps particularly a leader of this organizing effort.

17:13And I was one of those who was very much invested and I saw the writing on the wall. I give this to you as an example of what also the experience was with liberal politics and testing out the meaning of some of these things. Is this a morality tale to say liberalism let you down? No, it's more to say that... I know you were critical of Obama because of drones, for example, which was a very common critique. I mean, the most radical thing about Obama was identity. First black president. But he was not a radical. He is not a radical. You describe yourself as a radical. You do, continually. Yeah. When have I described myself as right?

17:57I will send you, as I say, I will send you. There is a space between you. Describe that space. I think that the point of my sharing that story is also the limits that I found within a certain kind of politics. and a desire for a politics that spoke to the broken nature of a status quo that wasn't specific to Republican politics, but also a far larger status quo that also included the Democratic Party. And ours is also a campaign that is built around a very specific set of politics that also looks to the ways in which our own politicians here in New York City have failed us and our own politics has failed us.

18:48And that that failure hasn't necessarily just been one of not enough New Yorkers being able to see themselves in it, but also the choices that have been made of what to focus on and what to ignore. In terms of policy. In terms of policy, in terms of people. When I went to speak to those voters on Fordham Road, and on Hillside Avenue, there's a tendency to treat all of these issues that we're facing as if they were created by Donald Trump, when in fact, the most salient of them are the ones that existed prior to him, that he has diagnosed and then exploited.

19:28I'm speaking with Zoran Mamdani, the Democratic candidate for mayor of New York City. We'll continue in just a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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20:40This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I've been speaking today with New York City mayor of candidate Zoran Mamdani. Now, if he wins the election next month, Mamdani would be the first immigrant in generations to serve as a mayor of a city that's now more than a third foreign-born. He'd also be the first Muslim. Mamdani was born in Uganda to Indian parents. His father is a Columbia professor, Mahmoud Mamdani, and his mother is the filmmaker, Meera Nair, who made Monsoon Wedding and other movies. Mamdani grew up in New York. He worked as a political organizer, and he dabbled some in rap music.

21:20He became a citizen in 2018, and in 2020, he won a seat in the State Assembly. He represents a district in Queens. I'll continue my conversation now with Zoran Mamdani. You come from parents from the left, distinctly. In fact, your mother was profiled in The New Yorker years and years ago. Your father's book was just reviewed in The New Yorker by Kella Fasana. And yet they sent you to a pretty expensive private school, Bank Street. You went to a high school that was public school, but it's for gifted kids who do well on a test. And then you went to Bowdoin, which is an expensive private college.

22:04How do you feel about that educational legacy of your own? And would you do the same for your kids? And how do you want to see this change? The key is to ensure, and I would say this is true with education, but also with all public goods. that they are at such a level of excellence that all will choose to use them, not just those who cannot afford that which is being provided by the private sector. And my vision for this city is one where those options that New Yorkers will choose to go to, the best ones are within our public school system. And Bronx Science was an illustration of a glimpse of that, of the promise that that education can hold for many.

22:48I moved to New York City when I'm seven years old. and I go to Bank Street, which is this very progressive middle school on the Upper West Side, just a few blocks from where I live. Progressive in its politics, but private and expensive. Yes, and it's pedagogy, I mean, in terms of its outlook. And I'm both a student at Bank Street, and then there's this one period where my father goes back to Uganda to write a book on Makeri called Scholars in the Marketplace. And I go back with my father for about, much of that year. And I enroll into the Aga Khan school in Kampala. And I have gone in just a space of a few months from a school where the worst possible grade you can get is a check minus to a school where I find that corporate punishment is still very much in vogue.

23:38Did you get hit? I wouldn't say hit. But I did learn that if you don't underline every sentence in your homework and then get it signed by your parent that you will have your ear rubbed together in the manner of when you're going down a rope and your hands are... That sounds painful. You know, it wasn't something I'd experienced at 112th and Broadway. Yeah. But I think it's... This is part of my own childhood has been understanding that to be able to grow up without having to question whether that which I need would be that which I had is something that every child should have. Ideally, of course.

24:23Yes. Of course, of course, of course. But would you send your kid to Bank Street? I would send my kid to a public school. And I think part of this is that... Even if you had the means and it was markedly, the quality of it was less. Well, see, I don't think that that's the hypothetical that... We're not asking hypothetically. Yes, but by the time that I have a kid, I'll have been the mayor of this city. And the schools will be that transformed, ideally. If you don't have an ambition to actually change the city around you, then I don't think you have a business in running. We allow the exceptions of systems to tell us the story of the system as a whole.

24:54And I think the importance here is that how can we make our public education such that even if you have the means, it's still where you choose to go. and there is an immense amount of work to be done in doing so. And yet I also think that it is critical to the success of governance as a whole because schools are where many New Yorkers will engage with government the most. I think part of - Schools are the whole ball of wax in a way. But what confuses me when I'm thinking about these things, we have 150 ,000 kids in charter schools. and they're public but they're not they're quite different from ordinary public schools district schools 90 % of those kids are black and Latino and they want to be there and yet people are very anxious about charter schools I think you are you don't want to see any new ones why why it's a real dilemma well I've shared my skepticism on charter schools.

26:04And what I've said is a skepticism that is in part born out of the ways in which certain students are pushed out of those schools, disproportionate rates of suspension for certain sets of students, and the manner in which, you know, when I was at the heart of a fight in Albany to finally fund our public schools that had been required by law in the campaign for fiscal equity. So much of the funding that we actually won, the vast majority of it went to charter schools specifically. And these are questions that I've raised publicly and I've shared. They also don't preclude me from meeting with New Yorkers who feel very differently.

26:46Is it a funding question? We now spend in this city$42 ,000 per pupil in schools. That's a lot. It's a hell of a lot. And yet, wealthy parents are still plucking their kids out and sending them to private schools, not middle class people and working class people, if they can get their kid into a charter school, very often they'll do that. What's the level of spending? What's the level of government reform on the part of your office? And do you want to devolve power away from your office, which I'd like to know more about, that is going to make schools better the way you want them to be? I don't think it's as simple as just a question of funding.

27:30I don't think it's that if we were to reach a certain point, then everything would be solved. I think there's also a real question of governance, of focus, of even internal reform. What I mean by that is that the Department of Education is the agency that city government spends the most on of any agency. By a lot. We spend about$10 billion within that department on contracts. Now, some of those contracts are ones that are individualized per school district. There is an immense amount of money that I think could be saved where we just standardize a lot of this. Some of these contracts are also ones where we are procuring curricula that is then to be taught by teachers only to then find out later at the end of the process that the curricula that the city has already procured is not actually teachable within the context that it's being procured for.