‘Cape Fear’ Episode 4: Dude, Where’s Your Toe?

19:46Joanna Robinson:And we were sort of coming to this conclusion that like, if the show is presenting Max Cady as a like righteous and true practitioner, Santeria, that is like - I would be shocked, frankly. Bad and problematic. If they're like, he's taken this, you know, practice and this faith and twisted it to his, you know, his means, his purposes. Like that's sort of more what I think is going on. So I don't think like what he's doing should be seen as indicative or representative of other practitioners of this. But so there's however he's actually practicing it and whatever he may be intending with all that.

20:20And then there's what he uses it for in this conversation with Smiley and really for Anna's benefit, I would say, of the plausible deniability of, I'm going to say that we are of this similar like cultural background so that I can come with you and you don't have to ask too many questions up front about what I'm going to do. And then as soon as you leave the room, I'm really just not gonna even say what happened in there but I have this recording this temptation to dangle in front of you but like ultimately other than maybe the affliction of justice there's really nothing about what happens with Smiley and the snakes that has anything to do with Santeria or Faith whatsoever I wouldn't say.

20:55Joanna Robinson:Just information for us the viewer more than anything else and I do and information that like you know he said that this guy Smiley was at Tarwater Prison with him and so you know is this where Because the flashbacks that we got to Max's childhood, you know, it was like a giant crucifix on the side of the river and a sort of like baptism sort of imagery. So I think that was the faith that was practiced by his family growing up. Yeah. His dad. And so we already put religious trauma on the board. So this idea of like warping a religion into abuse, which was already existed in his childhood, is that what he then did with a practice that he might have encountered when he was at Tarwater with this other guy, you know?

21:41Definitely could be. And the toes are paying the price.

21:44Joanna Robinson:So we're adding Santeria to the board. Absolutely. Do you want to talk about snake stuff now? Let's talk about all the snake stuff. Here's my question for you as far as Smiley goes. How many snakes are too many snakes? Oh, so we had snakes growing up in our classrooms, like corn snakes. Okay. Like one tank, several corn snakes inside? I think never more than three snakes in one classroom. Okay. I think that's... That's enough. I think three is a good number. I did have a friend who had a whole wall of snake terrariums, but I was deeply uncomfortable in that room. It's just a lot. I think if you...

22:24Look, live your life. if you want to have a bunch of snakes.

22:27Joanna Robinson:Yeah. I can't say I support you, but I support your choices that lead you to this point. Some people are cat people. Yes. Some people are snake people. I just can't wrap my head around the kind of pet having where you have to make a pass. Or the snake might wrap itself around your head. Well, obviously that's part of it, but more so that I have to go like check every terrarium to make sure one of them has not escaped in the night. How do you feel about the fact that we are like Euphoria back in snake territory and severed toes territory? Euphoria is going to linger with us. Toes, snakes. Like this is our personal vision board and I didn't want to manifest it, but apparently we did.

23:01Joanna Robinson:I'm pretty upset. So we're adding Smiley Pitt. Do you think he's going to come back? Smiley Pitt's going to be added to the board. I think this is probably the last we see of him, right? Could be, but I'm putting him on the board anyway. Snake stuff, definitely going on the board. There's so much snake stuff. Max was very like cozy with the snakes. He's a charmer. And then RIP that one snake. Our producer Kai was like, there's not enough dead stuff on the board. So we're adding this dead snake to the board. I was unclear personally if this was Rose, his one named snake. Yeah, you really wanted to make sure we got the identity of the snake right.

23:31I just think it's in like the Ebert economy of characters that like if you're going to bring something up, they have to like pay off in a certain way. So it's like the fact that one snake is named, wouldn't it stand to reason that that's the one that Max stabs through the head?

23:43Joanna Robinson:R.I.P. Rose. Is that the titular piercing, do you think? Honestly, lots of piercings abound. Piercings everywhere. All right. Tom, of course, belongs to a country club. So I'm adding the country club. to the list. Is it a country club? Yeah. Or is it just like a members-only club? And is there a difference? What's the difference? What's the meaningful difference to you? I'm going to say not much, but I bet if you're a member of a country club or a members-only club, subtle but meaningful. Like, what is the difference? Well, for one, I think country club involves sports. Oh, you have to have a golf course attached?

24:14Joanna Robinson:But isn't that golf? Or tennis courts. Oh, okay. One of the two, or at least a pool. You think there isn't a golf course like right outside the window there? Unclear. Okay, so you think it's like a gentleman's club? I think it could be a gentleman's club. Interesting. Could be a fancy Elk Lodge, you know? Who is to say? I definitely think Tom belongs to a country club. He's got the vibe. Okay, excellent. Country club, we're adding into the list. No more club quibbling here. Max is here. He's joined Tom's country club, or gentleman's club, as you prefer. This seems to be just like a first foray into a longer seduction attempt, because that's what Max is doing, right?

24:51Joanna Robinson:He's trying to be like, Like, you don't have to be afraid of me. And if you are afraid of me, I'm going to menace you. That's what he did with Ray. Do you feel like he was menacing Tommy? I thought so. Okay, tell me more about that. I mean, you don't go up to a dad and say, hey, your son really needs a dad. You are the father, obviously. Like, nothing about this is seduction. It feels much more menacing. I don't know. Let me buy you a drink at your country club. See, that's in the country club world. Oh. You know? He just, like, put his dick on the table. What the fuck do you know about country club culture?

25:21Let me tell you, we're all making it up as we go. But I'm saying he comes in with this very aggressive, I would say overbearing, macho sort of energy.

25:30Joanna Robinson:Are you from country club people? No. Okay. But you're a tennis guy? Do you feel like that's why you're not? I'm a public court tennis player. Come on. It's honestly very different. Don't even give me a start. It's a different subculture. Okay, let's go back to you knowing the nuances of the social ins and outs of the country club. I just read it much more as like, what's happening with Anna, there is a type of seduction, right? A temptation of I'm going to dangle this bait on a hook for you. Of this piece of evidence you so desperately need. This was not that. And I think some of it is Tom is not as open to Max's advances in persuasion so far.

26:00He's like very repulsed by it. This whole interaction on his side. Super cold. Super removed. I'm getting out of here as soon as I possibly can. Does not want any part of it.

26:08Joanna Robinson:I did see, you know, like Max is constantly performing inside of this episode. Even when he's like, when he was menacing that guy at the dealership. It was with a smile on his face. Like he's still performing in some way. But when he started talking about his kid, that felt real to me. Kinda. It's so interesting because Javier Bardem is so full of menace and at times so full of shit. I don't mean it feels like earnest, like I felt for him. Yeah. It just felt like this is a mania, an obsession of his. I could see that. Why was that sonogram photo on the like ceremonial, you know, sort of thing at the beginning?

26:48It was sonogram photo, the illustration of the AI slop that supposedly came from Zach, the cowry shells, plantains or bananas could be either one.

27:00Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Was there anything else involved in that little like on an altar setup? I don't know, but we are adding the AI slop drawing. Your rendering of Zach's rendering of the AI slop nightmare. Zach's AI slop drawing is going on the board for sure. Got to. Anything else you want to say about this Tom and Max interaction? I love these two in isolation too I hope we get much more of this I hope it's not just Max and Anna like I'm as interested in this dynamic as well I'm dialed in let's go oh I will say one thing about the drawing I know we're kind of shifted off of like this is Max's unborn son who is being drawn yeah AI Slap Adam you wanna you wanna tell the folks what got the biggest laugh while we were watching this episode because I think it might have been that I think it might have been that drawing the drawing is it's tough The hairline is tough.

27:48There's a lot happening. I say this not uncharitably, having acknowledged all of those things. If you want to adjust the bangs just so on that drawing, if you want to bring a couple of lines in, does it not look like Natalie?

28:00Joanna Robinson:Oh, wow. Look at you. Scad himself. Our critic himself. I'm just saying, a couple of quick alterations, and we've been debating since the first episode, like, is Natalie Max Katie's biological daughter? To go back to another show we're covering, or have been covering, you're saying that Widow's Bay Island does not look like a hand, but you're saying that AI sloth drawing of Adam looks like Natalie? From a certain point of view. Wow. All right, Juliette Lewis and Amy Adams. Here we go. First of all, Rob, I know you don't like Halloween, but would you reconsider perhaps dressing up in a green rain slicker and a face mask?

28:40I would say, why wait for Halloween? Why aren't we doing this for the season finale?

28:43Joanna Robinson:I think I'm like full up on costumes with all the vampire shit I'm doing on House of R. That's your own doing. But if you want to get a blonde wig and a green rain slicker and a face mask. I will consider it. I think you should consider it. Just know that if I do those things and we do a podcast with me wearing them, I will be performing in a like breathy, lilting, creepy voice the entire time. That's not so different from your current voice. Okay, listen, you're welcome. Great stuff. Fingers in the window is a real move, right? Anna cracks the window to be like hi I wouldn't do that if I saw Juliette Lewis prancing in the street you talked straight through the window or are you driving off I'm driving off wow and if she's in front of me I will keep driving until she that's actually distinctly not true I the place I lived before LA there were just wild turkeys on the road all the time and they would just get in front of your car and sometimes I would just sit there because I'm like I'm not going to menace the turkey they're scary so I would just wait for them to like gobble on and they would just take their time.

29:44I feel very confident that this is the only podcast where you will hear Juliette Lewis compared to a wild.

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32:20Joanna Robinson:Our listener Larry has a theory about who Juliette Lewis might be playing, right? Juliette Lewis is playing Max Cady's half-sister, I have to believe. Knows about his dog-caged childhood and is the right age. Katie said his father had another family when Katie joined them at 13. And as I mentioned, Larry wrote another email of this. As I mentioned before, there was a young woman watching on the shore during the baptism. So how do you feel about this as like a half-sister figure? I'm compelled. I think some of it, if we want to tie in - Maxine Katie. Yeah, Maxine would be very funny. But if we want to tie in Anna and Juliette Lewis's encounter later in this episode, where she's talking about the quote unquote horrors that she has tried to warn off of being in Max's orbit.

33:05Joanna Robinson:Yeah. I mean, clearly that is meant to be intimidating. It's meant to be like scary to watch and her framing and the way she's talking about it. I also wonder if it is more, this is a damaged person trying to make a genuine effort of concern in her way. That's how I read it. And so the idea that she knows Max well enough to try to warn these women away from him and she's attempting to do that with Anna, but in a way that comes on quite strong. But also, like, I think, like, whatever happens, if she's his half-sister or not, the implication to me is that this woman, you know, quote, was made a whore by, like, was also, whatever he did psychologically, sexually to Amy and Melissa, he did to her as well.

33:47Joanna Robinson:Well, that's the question, right? Is she in the line of these other women who have been romantically entangled or is she more of a half-sister character? The way that she's sort of like, well, why or? I mean, this is the show where it would be both. Who am I kidding? I already have an incest card for another pair of characters on this show. Who are also maybe half siblings. So, yeah. Cycles repeat. She was sort of like, the way she was dancing in her underwear to the butthole surfers on that video did not strike me as purely sisterly. So, that's all I have to say about that. They have a complicated relationship, clearly, whatever it is.

34:23Joanna Robinson:Let's just wrap up the Juliette Lewis of it all. given that there was a kiss between Max and Anna an uncomfortable kiss we are adding that kiss to the board gotta do it she shows up and she says I saw you with him and she has a video camera so to me that says there is now video evidence of Max and Anna kissing yes that without the context of him like kind of forcing himself on her if someone else sees it again that puts and in a compromising position. Especially at a distance. Yeah. Like from that remove where you don't have all the information could definitely be wielded against her or the Bowdens in whatever kind of way.

35:05Right. I think it's kind of an underlining thing throughout this episode, this idea of not only you could be watched at any time, but you could be recorded at any time.

35:13Joanna Robinson:Yeah, that sort of tech paranoia. The tech paranoia. And it comes through with Smiley and the idea of like a one-party consent audio state. Yeah. Gotta know your rights. Yeah. It comes through at the car dealership where that whole encounter is being recorded added again added slight remove so who's to say what it is or what it looks like but the impression at a distance could that might be the kind of thing that ultimately works against Max Katie right as he has this smiling image to so many different people here he is kind of intimidating this guy and being like right in his face in a way that is clearly a confrontation that idea of like you could always be watched inside your home own home or anywhere is something to think about and in this case not only can you be watched but then you can be tastefully reflected through like, I love the glare of both the sun and the giant ass light that Julia Lewis has attached to her camcorder.

36:01Again, just kind of -

36:02Joanna Robinson:That was a great shot. Keeping us like at a slight back foot in terms of ever being able to read her face or impressions or what she indicates at any time. We cut from this, and this is like one of several visual flourishes that I quite enjoyed in this episode. We cut from this to Natalie stabbing a piece of fruit at breakfast, which will then of course come back during the nipple piercing scene. But I just like loved that image of like the juicy red strawberry getting, you know, pierced there. I'm putting learner's permit on the board. Natalie is very stressed out that she does not have a driver's license.

36:36Joanna Robinson:So I'm putting learner's permit. Do you think we're going to get a scene later this season where she needs to drive? Like Tom's been shot and she needs to drive to the hospital, but she's like, no, I can't. I don't yet have my license. I don't know. Does it count as having a licensed supervised driver if they are like passed out and gunshot in the backseat of the car or something like that. You know, in Georgia, probably. Yeah, I don't know what the rules are in Georgia. It's fair. By the way, California is a two-party consent recording state. I do know that. Absolutely it is. So, I don't know all the one-party...

37:03Joanna Robinson:It seems like everywhere should be a two-party consent recording state. I'm going to be honest. It's mostly the ones you'd expect. Okay, tough. Tough for Georgia. That's a real Southerner on Southerner crime. It's just the truth. Peanut butter is here at breakfast. Something that really struck me about this breakfast scene, not just that, like, that Natalie calls Tom a cuck. Like she does drugs one time and she is like ready to be a bad seed. Like she is ready. Did you take this as a proper Chekhov's cuck slash cuck shadowing? Oh, cuck shadowing. Everything that is in the air as far as what her actual parentage may be.

37:40Joanna Robinson:I'm adding cuck shadowing to the word. Were you just mad that I coined a trash repiece and you wanted to put cuck shadowing in there? No, I'm never mad at your brilliance, you know? I simply want to follow you into the depths. Okay, great. Cuck shadowing. Interesting because that is our theory. Well, no, not really because she would have been cucking Paul, not Tom. But Tom is still, I mean, he's even worse, the second cuck. Oh. The step cuck. The cuck who stepped up. He is kind of the cuck who stepped up. Shout out to Tom doing actual parenting in this episode. He's trying. He really is. I wouldn't say it's always successful.

38:17I wouldn't say everything he does is perfect, but he's making an honest to goodness effort.

38:20Joanna Robinson:When he's like golly gee willikers, we went to an art show and I think it's going well with Zach. That was just like one of my, like, hey buddy, if you want to go to, this is great. This is really neat. Reminded me a lot of some dads I know. We're just sort of like, I love this art show stuff you're interested in. Also all the voice to text with him is, it makes me laugh every time. The thing that really struck me about that breakfast scene though is Ray being like such a member of the family. Yeah. Like he's in the kitchen making coffee. Making the good coffee. He's like familiar, Savannah Coffee Roaster, shout out.

38:49Joanna Robinson:He's like familiar with Natalie. You know, like he's just like friends with all, he's not just like Anna's co-worker. He's like embedded in the family. And I just think that that's, that's a difference of this archetype of this role that we've seen in previous iterations of the story. A more incorporated. Well, this has been there from the very beginning, right? Like he was over there for the barbecue to open episode one. Like he is fully integrated here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think there's a difference between being invited for a barbecue and like straight up making coffee in someone else's kitchen.

39:17Joanna Robinson:That's a degree of intimacy that is hard to come by. How many people in your life are you familiar enough with who are like you're not related to that they could just wander in and make coffee in your kitchen and you wouldn't really bat an eye? I think literally like one person. Honestly, how about you? It's an exclusive list. Probably fewer. I think it would be very weird for somebody to do that. Your kitchen is your sanctuary. So it's a different thing for you, I think. Zach and therapy. All right. So we get more of the Tom Talking Heads flashback. We get more information. That he has told everyone that his brother died in a car accident when clearly his brother like hung himself.

39:48At least told his kids that.

39:50Joanna Robinson:Yeah, I don't know what Anna knows. Yeah, that would be the variable. Talking Heads poster is there and then the thing that you thought was He-Man is... Very close. Oh, it's Conan. Conan the Barbarian. Yeah. Very close. Tom Fierce is a therapist because it seems to me that Tom Fierce is a therapist because he's like, I don't want to talk about this thing. I'm in deep denial about this thing that happened to me. Of course. That's what he's like, get out of here. Like, not anything to do with Zach where he's like, Like, Zach doesn't trust you. Zach doesn't take you seriously. I mean, it's all a ruse.

40:20Yeah. Can I stand up for my guy, Tom, for one second, though?

40:22Joanna Robinson:Yeah, your guy, Tom? He needs to be in therapy to talk about this stuff. Yeah. I think the therapist suggesting we are going to loop in your lifelong deep-seated family trauma into your son's much more recent guilt-ridden selfie-leaking trauma. And why are we entangling these things when these people both need dedicated individual care? And this is where we got an email from our listener, Nicole, where I really agree. I'm not, we're not parents, but I agree with Nicole who says, as a parent, if my daughter bit off her toe and swallowed it, after the ER run, she would have immediately been in the best psychiatric care Savannah had to offer.

40:58Joanna Robinson:There would be no trip home, no Savannah coffee roasters. I would have taken at least a week off work. My life would stop. And I would tell my boss what's going on so she could have a normal human reaction and reinforce any other choices. every time I see Zach do something text weird people walk around his house shake hands with Max Cady exist without help I am taken out of the story and just made super angry and I agree we are adding a segment to this podcast of like like too dumb to live and I don't think this is the thing but like Tom and Anna are not only like questionable parents to begin with but like their behavior around Zach is I can't understand it incomprehensible that is the word incomprehensible.

41:39Your kid biting off their toe, as the email alludes to, would be the only thing you think and talk about for a long time.

41:45Joanna Robinson:Like, I get that Anna, like, Tom, I like, you know, because Tom is like a shittier lawyer, like a less altruistic lawyer. So Tom is the one who seems to be like taking more time off work. Yeah. Even though Lexi's coming over and they're microdosing drugs while Zach is upstairs. It's kind of off work. But I understand that Anna is like, I have an important job, but I'm with Natalie where I'm just sort of like, fuck you, dude. Like, take some time off work. Be with your family right now. I mean, Natalie is noticing, if no one else is, that, you know, Anna's following through on a lot of things she says she's going to do.

42:18Joanna Robinson:All right, Sports Corner. You wanted to linger with Natalie at soccer. I would really like to. What do you want to say? I mean, many things. One, this whole scene is very strange. As far as Nevaeh creeping up behind the goal, having a full-on conversation, nobody seems to notice her. Natalie just walks off. No one seems to notice. are you positing Nevaeh is not real I'm not but like the show almost shoots it that way as if she's a figment of Natalie's imagination maybe that's kind of like the subtext but not the literal like she's not a ghost yeah that said I think Natalie being a goalie to me is like a very specific character be it a goalkeeper if you prefer I do very true to her character as I understand it and I would say specifically the idea that like a goalie are you pandering the world you're not a soccer guy I'm not Okay.

43:04But I'm a sportsman. Okay.

43:06Joanna Robinson:What do you know about goalies? Well, I think the role of a goalie is similar to many and many different industries and walks of life where it's like, if you're doing that job well, no one really notices or talks about it unless you make the exceptional save. Okay. But the one time you fuck up, the Callies of the world are like, what's your problem? All fingers are pointed at you. This pressure-packed, perfectionist position where you get really very little praise for the day-to-day of what you do. Yeah. That feels true to everything else we're hearing about, Natalie. I agree. I really agree. I'd be curious what, you know, we know that Bill Simmons is watching and enjoying this show.

43:39Joanna Robinson:I'll be curious to see if we get any texts about the soccer play because I remember he had a lot of notes about Yellow Jackets and like how the, you know, how the young women were playing soccer on that show. So I'll be curious what he thinks. I mean, she is, clarified here, more spiritually Megan Rapinoe than actually Megan Rapinoe. Yeah, tough. It's okay. Maybe if she had those shoes that her grandfather tried to give her, she would have done a better job. Well, it's not even a quality thing. It's just a positional issue, you know? That's true. That's true. Okay, Tom and Zach. Let's go fishing.

44:06Joanna Robinson:Let's go to the art show. Yeah. Let's take a dip in the pool. Hey, where's your toe? Patrick Wilson? Emmy. I ate it again? Emmy? Emmy? Emmy for Patrick Wilson. Hey, where's your toe? I really don't think there was a single Patrick Wilson moment in this episode, line or reaction shot that I did not have like a physical response to. The man is completely positive. I want to be very clear about that. I love him on this show. Okay, where's your toe? I just wanted to carpe some diem. Joe Anders, who plays Zach, I thought he was really good in that art show scene when Beth, the mom, was really laying into him in a way that seemed unnecessary.

44:51Like, no, I'm not defending him.

44:53Joanna Robinson:I get it. I'm not defending him, but when Tom's like, Beth, we're leaving. Yes. Like, let Tom take his son away and just de-escalate. She's escalating. Let's de-escalate. That's what I have to say. I think if you're the parent of somebody who has been wronged in a profound, and at that point, like social life altering way, if not life altering way, you get a little defensive, you know? But I don't think this is Beth's first rodeo at like telling Zach that he's a piece of shit. And let me tell you, it's not her last. Like that woman has not said everything she has to say. Tom's like, Beth, I'm trying to handle it.

45:27Joanna Robinson:She doesn't even know about the Tom. Here's the thing. If this were a neutral situation, I'm not defending what Zach did, obviously, with this young woman. Well, you've been doing that off mic for weeks. You've been saying that Sophia really had it coming. It's like, I just thought it was very weird from you, Joe. Really, I'm very afraid. What were you going to say? If this were a neutral situation, they're just all at the grocery store. They turn the aisle into the cereal, and they're like, oh my God, here we are. He did follow her to the art show. He stalked her to the art show. You know, that's fair.

45:54He had the brilliant idea.

45:55Joanna Robinson:I just really think Tom's saying, Beth, we're leaving. I want the interaction to be over. I don't want to continue the interaction with this like clearly troubled child. Maybe if I'm Beth, I'm like, hey, why isn't he in therapy literally right now? Like, you know, something like that. But you're a bad person and you should marinate in your guilt forever. It's like it's not the most constructive thing to say to a child. But I don't think her role in here is like as a parent of the community. It says a parent of her own daughter. You need help. You're a bad parent. Get him help. Why isn't he committed to psychiatry?

46:29Joanna Robinson:Maybe, maybe. I mean, he deserves to be too. Maybe. Beth, we'll leave. And then we get the pool scene. So we had this like, I may go stick my head in the oven, which triggers Tom again to think of his brother. We see him sort of hit himself in the face, which we already saw Zach do earlier this season and Tom stop it and be like, hey, don't hit yourself. But this is something he learned from Tom. This is something like Tom does to sort of snap him. Like when he's not microdosing, I guess he's like slapping himself out of these moments of recollection. A horrific flashback or whatever. And then we get the pool moment.

47:02Joanna Robinson:Did you have a moment where you were like, you know, Zach is trying to end his life in the pool? Like, how did you react to that? I thought it would probably be bait and switch. It's just too early in the season for stuff like that. And really, I think the importance of so many of these scenes is establishing Tom as the boiling kettle character, right? Like Zach, we're showing everything he's going through. He's having a really hard time processing what he's done and what he's done to hurt Sophia among other people. but even using his therapy as a chance to turn and look at Tom and say like you got a lot of stuff you need to work out you're not talking to anybody about you're lying about actively and even his advice to Zach in this moment after he dives in the pool is I thought about the man I wanted to be and over time I became him exactly that sounds so much to me like I have I created an artifice and I have crawled inside it and I am pretending to be that person but I am not actually that person like what I wrote down is like what is lurking underneath for Tom right So like when a Max Cady or someone else chips away at one, you know, the veneer of success and happy home and nuclear family and all this sort of stuff is what this show is, is what the story of Cape Fear has always been about.

48:18Joanna Robinson:How do we unearth the rot underneath this sort of like idealized American dream? So like in the 90s version, we just like learn more and more about Nick Nolte's character as it goes on or the ways in which Juliette Lewis's character is not being supervised and all this other stuff like that. And so here it's like what lies are responsible for propping up this like extremely affluent white, you know, family in Savannah, Georgia. And the ways that they're kind of self-destructed within those lies, right? Everything, what Tom is hiding, his own past trauma with his brother and his inability to be open about it is what leads him to think that his own son might be suicidal that leads him to dive into that pool to save him.

49:02When in reality, Zach is trying to do the thing his therapist told him to do, which is like activate this dive reflex. It's like a very real thing in terms of quieting the anxiety in your head and drowning it out with like physiological response of breathing, right? You were streamlining everything that's going on inside you. So he tried to do the thing his therapist said. Tom interrupts him because of his own shit. And that is like a straight line from there to him reaching out to Angel X at the end of this episode because he needs relief from somewhere and he can't get it in his own home anymore.

49:29Joanna Robinson:I guess, but like it's also, that came directly from Sophia texting him. Well, sure. But you're like, if he had had more time and dive therapy, he would have been able to handle that better. I think everything he is being shown in his own home is like, even when you try to take care of yourself and do the things your therapist says, it's not going to work. Your family won't allow it. just like the atmosphere in this place is inhospitable to it. Stifling. All right. I forgot to add some things to the board. Conan the Barbarian is definitely going on the board. Get him up there. Love him. Pool therapy.

50:00Joanna Robinson:You want to make this dive therapy or pool therapy? Let's keep pool therapy. Pool therapy is going on the board. Nipple piercing. Do you want to talk about the nipple piercings? Not really. I mean, we went straight from soccer into everything else, but this is a significant part of this episode and it was a lot. It was a ton. What do you want to say about it, though? I don't know what to say. I just think everything that's happening with Nat and Nevaeh in this episode is so much rooted in the idea of, like, how far can Nat just be pushed at this point? And it's fast. It's far and it's fast. But, like, speaking of, like, what's lurking underneath, for, like, you know, for Tom to say, I've crafted this persona and that I became that person dipped in handsome, like, you know, successful lawyer.

50:42Joanna Robinson:for Natalie as Nevaeh sort of deconstructed last week. You know, it's like the currency of buying your security with perfect grades, college applications, playing soccer, all these things. It makes sense that for a younger person that that sheen of perfection would crack faster. Yes. It really does seem like though it was like one party pushed her right over the edge. But here we are. We're in nipple piercing territory. We're in nipple piercing territory. I think there is part of Nat's character who, yeah, by her background alone is just very gullible. Primed. There are puppies and candy in this unmarked van level gullible.

51:20Joanna Robinson:It's a pop-up piercing. She is susceptible. In a ramshackle house. She's just like going along with this stuff in a way that I think makes sense for who she is and where she's been. I also am fascinated by Nevaeh's role in this story for both kids where she has wormed her way into both of their lives as the pressure release for them, right? This idea that after, I mean, we probably also need to talk about breaking into Nat's crush's house and dressing in her clothes to have sex in her bed. Wi-Fi jammer. Yeah. Nevaeh has a Wi-Fi jammer that can deactivate home security systems. Can't imagine where that would be useful.

51:57Joanna Robinson:Yeah. So what home security systems have we seen glitching so far on the show? Got it. Drug vision. When Nat's on the bed and she's like, you look pretty in my crush's clothing. Like it gets all like, All your swirling heads look so pretty. Bug vision, like refracted, you know, sort of thing. And this is post-smoke being blown in her mouth too. So who knows what was going on with that. Who knows what was in that smoke. We get the blowing of the smoke and then the blowing of the dust powder later. And if it is this drug, this devil's breath, it makes sense that it would come in these exhalation forms.

52:33Joanna Robinson:Incest. We're putting it on the board. Incest. It simply demands to be. Natalie is Max, Katie's daughter, which is our strong suspicion. Yep. And as we learn by the end of the episode, Nevaeh is Max, Katie's daughter. Then this, you know, young, I just feel bad for Natalie because like. It's not good. You know, she's like connecting with someone. It's a bad choice. But like she's connecting with someone after being rejected by her friend who was also her crush after feeling ostracized. And she like found someone to have this like, and she's like, I always get anxious with other people. With you, it's quiet.

53:10Joanna Robinson:And she's being manipulated. And it's probably her half-sister. You know what? That's a cautionary tale, kids. Is it? No. Do we need to be on the lookout for that? I don't know. No, but I do think there are the literal drugs, which clearly have an influence. And then there is sort of the drug of this sort of pressure release for these kids who are wound up so tight, in part because they are in a house that is a web of lies in ways that they both understand and don't. Well, Zach gets more complicated, though, because he was just like sort of already a hot mess before all of this started. But it's like, again, how do kids become a hot mess?

53:44I think there's lots of organic ways that could happen.

53:46Joanna Robinson:How long have they been in contact? Him and Angel X? Yeah. Did that start after he lost all of his friends in the Sophia incident? Or did that happen as part of it in the first place? I would, I mean, I guess it could have been a motivating factor. And we do get Zach trying to insist like, I'm not this person. You don't know the full story kind of stuff with Sophia. She understandably does not want to hear any of it. No. So maybe there is another shoe to drop as far as that initiating action. To go back to you implying that I am siding with Zach over Sophia, I will just say this. Sophia is allowed to say anything she wants to say.

54:20Joanna Robinson:Like, I have no objection of her being like, I unblocked your number just to tell you what a piece of shit you are. Like, that I'm like totally on board with. It's the adult woman that I was just sort of like, can we have? The adult woman is her mom. All right. what haven't we talked about that we want to talk about? Okay, so when Max is talking to Ray and Anna about helping with Smiley, he says this very important thing, right? It's not enough to persuade, you have to compel. And so this idea of compulsion, whether it's like drug-assisted, you know, when we watched Amy in the first episode shoot herself in the head twice, it certainly seemed upon the second time that she was compelled over the phone to do something.

55:03Joanna Robinson:So what other forms can these compulsions take? Like if Max is trying to persuade the car dealer to give him, you know, sell him the car and be cool and calm down, but then he's just like, what does compulsion mean for him? Violence? I think in the case of how do I get this watch, it's violence, right? That's not a I'm going to blow drugs in your face and slowly convince you. But I think there are clearly a lot of ways that someone like Max Cady can be persuasive and someone like Nevaeh can be persuasive. And the most interesting ones to me are the ones that play with this germ of an idea that's already there.

55:40Right. Like Nevaeh, even without the drugs, plants the seed of you're the perfect daughter who isn't allowed to do anything wrong. And then just kind of keeps feeding that idea until it becomes something that may be under the influence of a substance becomes more easily manipulatable.

55:54Joanna Robinson:Yeah. If there is this, I mean, like, it's wild to me that this drug apparently exists in the world. But we also got like several other emails about it. So like if this drug exists, that is makes people sort of vulnerable to suggestion. I mean, that's scary to me that that exists. But also like when you go back to that party scene, you know, she gets her high and then she is like sort of feeding her these ideas, like almost like a hypnotic suggestion or thing. Like they're not your real family, all these other things. So, yeah, upsetting. Not great. Guess what? This show. oh we should note Nevaeh does bust out the knife in Callie's house oh yeah I meant to add that to file we don't have a card for it yet but yeah she is so ready to kill Callie's father for no reason she is eager to do that yes so and Natalie is too goo goo eyed slash distracted to realize that the girl behind her has busted out this whole ass knife it's a sizable knife it's significant I think we did it I think we did Zach's burner phone makes an appearance We already knew it existed, but we did get to see it.

56:57Joanna Robinson:So there's that. It's in his closet. Also, when Tom comes into Zach's room and he's like, what are you doing in here? And he's like, he tells him something, but it doesn't seem true. He says he was like looking for his ASICs. Yeah. When reality is probably digging out that burner phone. The burner phone or something like that. Okay. Anything else? I mean, there's just like a lot of random loose ends in this. For example, the idea of Tom coming to his son to take him fishing. and it's so clear, at least it was clear to me in the way that it's played in that moment that like Zach is of the age where he maybe is trying to distance himself from the stuff he did when he was a kid.

57:33Joanna Robinson:Riddleway childish things. But also kind of wants to do it and like him reliving that moment and like charcoal sketching out the trout later. Yeah. There's clearly a relationship right there. And Tom, in his way, yeah, the advice may not be perfect because it reflects his own imperfections, but he is trying to reach his son in like a really earnest place when they have their moment in the pool. And I don't know that we've seen any of that from Anna as of yet. Like her relationship with her kids seems so much more distant, so much more like practical. And even in the practical part, she can't show up for the driver's licensing.

58:05Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Anna, bad mom? I'm not willing to go that far, but she's not a good mom. Tom, great dad? Definitely not willing to go that far. They both seem like quite bad parents, but some more. Tom, at least in this episode, appears to be trying. He is attentive to the details. He's showing up for the therapy appointment. Attentive to the details. All right. We're going to hand out some quick awards. Too Dumb to Live. Who's the most Too Dumb to Live in this episode? Anna. Anna. It might be Anna every week, honestly, but it's definitely Anna this week. She showed up to a known murderer's house and was like, Hi.

58:43You might be entitled to this one. I'm a lawyer. Thinking she can just ask all her cute questions. Right. And it's going to be totally fine. What are you... This man is talking about how his snake needs more bones. What are you doing here?

58:58Joanna Robinson:And she's like, that's cute. Can we talk about where you were than out of... Yeah, it's a lot. Anna, too dumb to live. Come on. Trashiest moment. I think this has to be... Okay, here's the thing. Trashiest moment for... The incest isn't great. It's incest. That's it? How is it not incest? Well, at least one of those characters doesn't know. Nevaeh may or may not know. Okay. What's your... I'm going to say for the characters in the show. How are we defining trashy? I think it's... It takes many forms and many styles. Because to me, it's like, what is the soapiest twist of this? Okay. See, I was thinking like, what is the trashiest behavior that's exhibited?

59:37Okay, what do you think the trashy...

59:38Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Because I don't think... No, I don't think what Natalie does there is trashy because she doesn't know. I mean, she's broken into someone's house, but like, she's a teenager exploring things, whatever. That is a soapy twist, though. I think it's trashy at the show to be like, Like, let's do some incest. We see some teenage girls. See, mine is some of both. I would say the trashiest decision is showing up to a random house that's a pop-up nipple piercing situation. Tough. Wouldn't do it. Yeah. The trashiest like filmmaking cinematic choice in terms of the way the show is made is definitely the puncturing of the strawberry as the nipple piercing.

1:00:09It's both amazing and undeniably trashy.

1:00:13Joanna Robinson:Very trashy. Let's just add to the incest argument though, the triangulation of she's also definitely slept with Zach. So Nevaeh has slept with... Has she? I think she has. I think she... They've done some stuff. He feels like she could have strung him along without actually doing a lot, but... You think that's just a lip-biting emoji and nothing else has happened? She sent him, like, racy selfies? You think nothing else has happened? So do you think she has the lip-biting emoji as her, like, profile avatar picture somewhere? Oh, you think he put that in there for her? Maybe. Gross. Okay. It feels like the kind of thing, unfortunately he might do.

1:00:48So gross. Why it is so much grosser if he did it, but I can't articulate why.

1:00:55Joanna Robinson:Horrible. Because he had to scroll through all the emojis. Like, you know what I think? That one. That's the one. Last but not least, what are we calling this? Weirdest line read. Weirdest line read. Yeah. I think we agree. Yeah. You want to do the honors? I don't know if I can. Do I have the cadence right? Nice car. Nice car. I'm jealous. Is that right? It's a little Tommy Wiseau. Do you want to do that? Well, I think the opening is definitely like a hey. Yeah. So you got to go, hey, nice car, nice ride. I'm jealous. I'm jealous. Also, the way the particular relish is very funny. The relish that Javier Bardem puts on ride shirts.

1:01:33Yeah. I mean, this is just one of our greatest working actors.

1:01:36Joanna Robinson:Cheerio on your butt. Cheerio on your ass. He's just he's doing it in a way no one else can. He's menacing Ray here because Ray had the audacity to say, we're good. We don't need your help. Yeah. And he's like an obstacle. let me fuck with him so again if you cross him even in the slightest he will come fuck with you in one way or another and also on this sort of like are they half siblings front you know should we connect what Juliette Lewis does to Amy Adams in her car you know like in terms of like come up to the driver's side window and sort of like reach in somehow never great I don't ever want anyone ever at my driver's side window if I'm like in the car and not expecting them like that's there's See, I would have expected you would love that kind of thing.

1:02:17Joanna Robinson:Oh, I'm scared. Nobody was a friend. I'm just sort of like, don't do that. Well, yeah. Text me that you saw my car.

1:02:26Joanna Robinson:And I'll find you, you know? I think it's good behavior. It's good advice for everybody. I had that happen where like someone saw me in the Safeway parking lot. And they're like, hey. And I'm like, no, don't do that. They just popped up? Yeah. Absolutely not. Also, shout out Safeway. Now I guess I have to shop at Vons. Whatever. What a calamity for me. Don't creep up on anyone in their car. Don't stick your fingers into their window. Certainly don't reach in and grab the steering wheel to stop them from driving away. Nice car, nice car. I'm jealous. And look, Ray is now totally on board. I think he fully understands the Max Katie situation now.

1:03:01Before he was wondering like, is this really it, Anna? Are you sure that this guy is capable of these things? Now he's experienced a little bit of it. I feel like he kind of gets the gist.

1:03:10Joanna Robinson:He's done some detective work. Clearly. He's the one tying things together as far as Nevaeh's parentage goes. Any other questions you have? Anything you want to talk about going forward before we unveil the board? I would say two things to flag. One, at the SCAD art show, we get a clip of Alfred Hitchcock's Shadow of a Doubt, a movie about a charming, but ultimately suspicious man and the people in his life kind of starting to put the clues together. Can't think of how it would possibly relate, Joe. Do you like Shadow of a Doubt? It's honestly been a very long time since I've seen it. Yeah. I would say I liked it.

1:03:41Not upper Hitchcock for me.

1:03:43Joanna Robinson:I would like to wonder how Joseph Cotton would deliver a nice car, nice car, I'm jealous. Just nobody put that into any AI system, please. We don't want to wish that on anything. This is strictly wonder and whimsy. I'm just wondering. I don't want to see it. Yeah, Shadow of the Doubt, which is a great movie, sort of slightly remade into the movie Stoker, which is a movie we both really like. I feel like we talked about this recently, though I can't remember why. Shadow of the Doubt and Stoker. It's never a bad time to talk about Chairwork Park. So, like, you know. All right. What's your other thing?

1:04:15Oh, just like, so the SJLP, when they're trying to get movement on Ruben Ramirez's case before Max has started compelling people to help.

1:04:24Joanna Robinson:Yeah. They have this press conference. I thought it was yet another moment of sort of, like, the celebrity of true crime. Mm. Obfuscating and, like, eclipsing anything else, right? Like, Max, the idea was bring him into the fold is going to help them, like, raise funds, raise awareness, be something they could leverage and weaponize. to talk about was Max. It's so clear that even his public presence is totally outside their control. Well, like when he shows up at the Cardi, not just like the guy that he is like, remember when I fucked your wife so hard, she broke a blood vessel in her eye and I feel like we would be remiss if we did not repeat that line.

1:04:52Joanna Robinson:But also, then the other guy's like, hey, Max, Katie, am I Carl? You know, like he's so famous locally that this is how they're reacting. And this can't be the last that we hear from the Katie Hawks. They will play a role in the back part of the season somewhere. Should I add them to the board? Let's do it. Okay. Anything else? Let's bring out the board. All right. Week three of this podcast, week two of the board. We've got the cards that we're going to add. We're not going to do that on camera right now. We will do it eventually. Is that bonus content? Is that like subscriber only stuff? Us struggling with string?

1:05:23Joanna Robinson:Watching us slowly pin things to a board. Look, everybody's into something. We've started the stringing process. It's not a complete process, obviously. We have yet to connect for sure sex to like Natalie and Nevaeh, for example. Is that our first confirmed sex? I guess so. I mean, other than children being born. Yeah, I guess like Tom and Anna had sex at one point. For sure sex. We can only assume. But yeah, here we are. I mean, Tabitha and her cameraman, I guess. That's just like a one card to one card situation. Yeah. Anyway, so this is the beginning of the string. It's only going to get more demented from here.

1:05:56Joanna Robinson:Rob has requested images to add to the board. I would. I think next week we're going to do this a little differently, but we just wanted to give a board checkup. Anything you want to say? Any connection you're most eager to draw here? The one I'm eager to, but also terrified of, Is Peanut Butter the cat over here connecting to, I mean, some of the more insidious characters in our story? What about Peanut Butter the cat down through cooking? The cooking card. Cooking to dry turkey to Max? Don't cook the cat, please. Is the cat going to get eaten? The cat could get eaten on this show. That's what I'm saying.

1:06:29Joanna Robinson:Peanut Butter to cooking, not the dry turkey to Max. Is Max Katie going to cook the cat? I really hope not. Is it called Peanut Butter for a reason? We still don't have a name for Juliette Lewis's character. No. Or Ethan Embry's character, I don't believe. Right, nothing official for Ethan Embry's character. What about you, Joe? Where are you looking to get some clarity or some connection on this board? We already drew this connection in advance, but I am curious about the like Juliette Lewis to Amy and Melissa. You know, the fact that this character knew Amy and Melissa and Anna was asked a question, you knew Amy, right?

1:07:00Joanna Robinson:So if Anna wants to do her due diligence, she should continue to ask Juliette Lewis more questions, which means we get those two actresses in more scenes which is exciting to me personally. As it should be for all of us. Also, I'm wondering like what color string if we wanted to, you know, just vary things up a little bit. You already vetoed more colored string because we can't even read Anna's name at this point, honestly. We can't and she's only going to have more strings and more connections but I'm just wondering what kind of visual marker could correctly signify for Lexi to Zach to Tom. I have watched you make out with my dad on our home couch.

1:07:35Like what suggests that to you?

1:07:37Joanna Robinson:That's like a neon pink situation, I think. Then we might have two strengths. At least two. That seems important to me. Inside every person, there are two strengths, and one of them is neon pink. All right. So again, we did get some suggestions from folks. We do still want to add the nail gun. Of course. There's a few other things that we want to put up here. But yeah, Prestigetv at Spotify.com. Think of a baby carrot at gmail.com. I am concerned that incest might need to be right in the middle of the board. It's going to connect to so many things very quickly. Should I make it a bigger card? we might need to replace Cape Fear with just incest we have added cuck to Tom's car I mean so you know you live by the cuck you die by the cuck if the chair fits you know you want to add step cuck to that or cuck shadowing somewhere the board is a work in progress it's true it's a living document Cape Fear culling cuck shadowing alright we'll see you soon bye

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