‘Cape Fear’ Episode 5: The Lawyer's Secret

22:43The open mouth kiss? Open mouth. The spit during the open mouth kiss. That feels like a level of tongue dexterity that I'm impressed by. It wasn't so much an open mouth kiss in the traditional sense, so much as one mouth completely covering the other mouth. Yeah. And then shotgun spitting directly into it. Look, people are into different things. People are innovating all the time. She didn't seem to like that one. Do you think this was in the script? Do you think Javier Bardem is like, you know what, I got just the thing. Do you know who I believe is a really let's do anything scene partner? Juliette Lewis.

23:15Of all the things she's experienced, this is like fifth percentile weird. I loved this. it is dank and dirty and upsetting but I really loved the nuance of all of this because you know she's her own bananas you know self when she shows up and she's like oh hi Max fancy running into you here like amazing stuff they're in the cigar locker I guess and he seems like drawn in by her like ensorcelled by her to a certain degree when they're in the cigar yeah yeah yeah you know he's like angry that she's there uncomfortable that she's there and she's like I know where you live like she knows before the Bowdoin's do that's why I guess she was on Anna's street when she was like looking for Max Anna's like this is my house dumb dumb and actually it's Max's house too um but he seems like you know he says nasty shit to her he calls her like delusional and sick which could feed into these like incest accusations from our listeners or whatever but like he's also like he's the one who initiates the kiss with her And it doesn't just seem to be sort of punishing and manipulative.

24:26It seems like he is sort of like under a spell or old habits or something like that with her. Well, I mean, let's even back up before that. I mean, when he first sees her, I would say... You want to go through this beat by beat. I really do, though. Yeah, that's great. I mean, what's your read on his initial reaction? I would say it's the first time he has really shaken up Max Cady in the entire series so far. And that's, we need this. We do. Like this is different from the movie, but I really like this element of like someone who puts him on the back foot when he is like so in front of all these other characters on this show.

25:00And are you getting from Javier Bardem's performance? Like, is it fear? Is it anger? Is it something? Is it some of the above, all the above, none of the above? And like shame? Yeah. Yeah. I think definitely some shame in that mix. And then the kind of spell that you're talking about, it's almost like he's physically resisting it. And then as soon as she kind of like touches him. He like leans into her. He crumbles. Yeah. I mean, the performances here are awesome. Very good. It is very confusing. It's a lot happening. I mean, she's like, you know, I reached into your dreams every night. And he was like, was that you?

25:33You know what I mean? Like, it was so weird. But just like the way he melts into her arms. Person. Bosom. Whatever you prefer. Can I say bosom or will cancer culture come for me? Anyway. Oh, no, it's already canceled. But rest assured, now the AI-generated slob version of our podcast can say bosom anytime at once. Oh, great. Anything else you want to say about Juliette Lewis? Are you more convinced this could be his half-sister or less convinced this could be his half-sister? I mean, more just how clearly and flagrantly the show wants to dive into incest at basically any time. You're a disgusting, delusional freak.

26:13Mm-hmm. Being near you makes me want to vomit. Well, let me correct you on that. Because I would say, if anything, this is my nominee for the weirdest line read of the week. The being near you makes me want to. And then it's like a 15 second pregnant pause. Vomit.

26:31It's a very normal show. Can you clip up our social media? Oh, my God. What are we doing with our lives? That was you. It's always me, Max. Like, this is just, this show is incredible. Oh, one thing I did want to note, maybe we'll see the origin of it, maybe we won't, but Julia Lewis has this very prominent scar on her cheek. I think we see up close and personal here. Correct. I was like, does Julia Lewis have this? No, she does not. So this is a character scar. So maybe it's something from their past. Maybe it's something from their escape from their weird father. It could have come from any number of places.

27:04It could be from Max himself. But don't worry, she sorted it all out with the right pills, so she's completely fine now. We got those dosages nailed down. We are very in support of medical help if you need it for mental health issues or whatever. I would say let's reassess the dosage on this particular character. She doesn't strike you as somebody who is perfectly well-adjusted in her situation. I don't think so. To be fair, you don't know what she was like before. That's right. I don't know where the watermark is. You don't. This could be the highest it's ever been. Absolutely. All right. Let's talk about— Okay, you noted earlier in the season, and I had missed it, that, you know, I don't know, character, whatever.

27:43Paul Schneider. Mark Brandanowicz. Parks and Recreation or Elizabethtown fame, if you prefer. Elizabethtown, a movie I've seen so many times. You know what? I do prefer. Yeah. He's great in that movie. He's playing Detective Grayson. Yeah. I love. I think he's great at this. He's bringing, like, Paul Schneider is capable. Like, I think early in his career, he tried to play some degree of earnestness. That is not his speed. Smarm is his speed. And he is bringing it here. I mean, it's the same reason why Margarita LaViva has never played the earnest, open-hearted person in anything she's ever appeared.

28:22She just has a face like she's hiding something. Unfortunately or unfortunately. And, yeah, I mean, this is fundamentally the reason he did not work on Parks and Rec. because he could not match the earnest register of the show. And he's too cynical for what the show became. Yes. So he's got to eject. You know, we got to get him out the back door. But here, I mean, he is exactly the antidote. He's what I wanted. To the insanity of this story. And also just some of the deliveries are wonderful. Loitering, shoplifting, attacking with a frozen fish. So Nevaeh is out here like all kinds of fish crimes.

28:51That's the thing. Yeah. A lot of fish related harassment. Yeah. She's also living in like a maggot tomb. How did you feel about that? Not great. Yeah. Fish stuff go? Is that a thing? Fish stuff stop. Fish stuff stop. But yeah, the maggot tomb with a skull that I'm a little concerned was a possum skull. I really hope it wasn't. Oh, witch possum RIP? Maybe she took its energy? Is that a thing that witches can do? I don't know. I'm concerned for the witch possum. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about Detective Grayson who is not here? Well, what I love is that he's carrying resentment towards the Bowdoin family from the beginning, right?

29:28Right. He's like, Tom used to put me on the stand to spite my unsavory character. Right. Like he was that. I thought that was just kind of cutting up with your old kind of. Oh, no. I thought he was like, you've never liked me or respected me. And it's your contempt for me has been clear. And now I'm I'm in a position to make you squirm. See, I read that so much more as because Tom was a prosecutor. Yeah. So it was more like the prosecutor and the cops working together to put people away. I think it was like, despite my unsavory character, made me feel like Tom made him feel like he had an unsavory character.

29:56Oh, no, I think that was just kind of like, we're cut, look, this old guy. Bros being dudes? Bros being dudes, this old guy, but this old guy is me. Guess what? I'll take your word for it. I don't know what it's like when bros are dudes together, you know? That was big bros being dudes energy. Okay, great. Anything else you want to say about Detective Grayson? Only in conjunction with, I think, a broader problem with this episode, and I would say a broader problem with television in general. TV shows need to stop trying to make memes. This is like, the whole like, Nevaeh jumped up like a mountain goat thing.

30:26Oh, I hate, oh. No, I see what you mean. We hear, I don't actually. I thought you meant, I thought you meant like they're trying to make a viral moment. You mean they're trying to capture what it's like to go viral on like TikTok or whatever. And you're like, it's not this. I'll tell you that much right now. I mean, the remixed version of, first of all, no one is saying she jumped up like a mountain goat. You don't know what they say in Savannah, Georgia? I feel confident about this one. No one in Savannah, Georgia is saying that. They might say that she's jumping like a mountain goat. Certainly.

30:51I'm open for some adjustment, but as a basis, that line is not happening. The, like, attempted remix a la 2009. Really tough. Not a meme that's going viral. And certainly this cop then referencing the mountain goat situation. It's just not a thing. Like, this is not a plot point. Did this feel like a real Hey Fellow Kids sort of moment from Cape Fear? I don't know, but it activated some TV-related trauma I can't quite place. I remember the TV show Clipped about the Donald Sterling L.A. Clippers scandal also tried to do some like timeline surfing meme creation. But I feel like some of the show we covered did.

31:27Like maybe it was, maybe it was disclaimer. It was like there was something where there was an attempt at a meme. And it was like, oh, not like this. Absolutely not like this. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? ZepBound Terzepatide may be able to help. ZepBound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. ZepBound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection.

32:07ZepBound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if ZepBound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZipBound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems.

32:41Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking ZepBound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? ZepBound Terzepatide may be able to help. Z-Bound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

33:29Z-Bound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Z-Bound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicine. It is not known if ZepBound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZepBound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

34:07Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking ZepBound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. All new Sundays at 9, exclusively on AMC and AMC+. I am the vampire Lestat. I'm a rock star now. I'm a little killer.

34:48I'm a demon. From Anne Rice's Immortal Universe comes what Vulture calls the most momentous event in fictional rock history. Thousands of fans love you. I want millions. It's my era. Anne Rice's The Vampire Lestat. All new Sundays at 9, exclusively on AMC and AMC+. Stream now. All right, what do you want to say about Lexi and Tom that we haven't already said? I mean, look, I have a lot to say about Lexi and Tom. For one, Tom has many problems going on. I would say among his most, his foremost problems, everyone wants to fuck this man. I guess. Catherine Buckley, the murderess. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

35:29A legend. The murderess. Who then went to go get a pedicure. maybe my new favorite character. Really great. I loved her energy. And when she's talking about all the men that like, or all the people, including a charming man at the golf course who her husband cheated. I just thought her energy was great. I think she definitely did it. And I kind of want her to get away with it. That's how I feel. Well, I want her to stay on the show. So if that means she has to get away with it, so be it. She also clocks Tom and Lexi point blank immediately. From across the room through the glass. Can't even hear what they're talking about.

36:03Yeah, and they're not even touching each other or looking at each other and she's just like, I see it. Just body language. But on the color theory front. Oh, pink. Well, she's come in blue suit. Yeah. Tom's blue suit. Lexi's got the whole pink number, like very, very like pastel pink. Also maybe silk shirt. She and Anna are both wearing pale pink in this episode. Yeah. I don't know what that means exactly. Okay, you just wanted to say colors? Well, no, like, I mean, the Anna parallels. Like, I guess Tom has a type and it's women who wear pastel pink. Sure. But no, the mirroring of the alleged murderess and Tom.

36:31I mean, clearly she's looking to get on his page in many respects, but they have an alignment of a sort. She's not wrong. She's like, Tom, you're distracted. You're not on top of this. Like all the sorts. I just really liked her and I was on her side the entire time. Lexi, I'm not on your side. I'm sorry. I think I just want to, I think I want to say that I'm on Catherine Buckley's side because I like to be a girl's girl and I will be this murderesses girl's girl, but I cannot be a girl's girl with Lexi at all. So this woman who's been, I mean, a victim in her workplace, predated upon by her boss.

37:05And now her boss is trying to take her off the biggest case of her career. Right. And you're like, yeah, fuck her. Yeah. Maybe women shouldn't have jobs. What do you think? I actually think she made a compelling case when she brought up the drugs and he's like, those drugs are from you. And she's like, you're my boss. You shouldn't have taken it. That was the most correct thing she said this episode. I fucking cackled. Yeah, it was incredible stuff. On the drug front, maybe we can ask Lexi what those drugs are, but also we can ask our emailer, Amanda, who revisited episode three. And among, I want to say, per Amanda's description, I'm trying to understand it as accurately as possible, the audio description subtitles for the hearing impaired say specifically Tom drips LSD on his tongue.

37:47That's so exciting. First of all, a bunch of our listeners are going to be so mad if it is LSD because they're like, no way is it LSD, you dumb-dumbs. Okay, but also, we've been like wondering what's going to happen with this drug vial. Yes. LSD. I'm excited to find out what goes wrong. A lot of things could be happening. Could go a lot of different places. A lot of people could be macro dosing by the end of this season. And frankly, I'm excited to see it. One can only hope. Speaking of controlled substances, Natalie has a drinking problem. Apparently. A drinking problem. I wonder where she got that.

38:19We were wondering, like, the open container that she was carrying around in the first episode when she, like, walked through the neighborhood to find Zach. and then threw her beverage at the quote-unquote podcaster. It was so weird because I was just like, who walks around with a beverage like that? But I don't know if she was already sneaking booze or if this is a recent development. What do you think? I mean, that would have been a time. If you have snuck booze into the house and you need a time to kind of covertly sip on it, I guess while you're going for a walk around the neighborhood and not in your house.

38:52Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think of this? I mean, I think bringing the booze into the house, bad idea for many different reasons. Yeah. Tom accusing Anna of drinking again. Not good. But I would have to think at some point in the season she does drink again. How dare you? I'm not saying, I don't want it. A woman in recovery. You know what, fair boy. Turn about. Fair boy. The way that, I mean, Zach, absolute creep show in this episode, can't wait to talk about that. The way that like Zach says like started early this morning, You know, like it makes it seem to me that this has been an ongoing thing with Natalie.

39:29This isn't like a, you know, we saw her drink at the party, but like this is the first time we've really seen her sort of like, you know, pour a flask of booze into a container at home. But it seems like this isn't maybe a new habit for her. The line from Zach, especially that's the damning kind of, this is a habit. This is a recurring thing. Needs to happen under certain circumstances, given what the parents do and don't want in the house. But it's not good for anybody involved. Okay. We're not parents. Yeah. No. But let's put out this thought experiment. Say you come home. Let's say he's not even your child.

40:00Any person you care - Why am I coming home to someone else's kids? Just a person is in your home that you care about. Okay. All right. Anyone you care any little bit about. And they're standing in front of the fridge, and they're staring blankly into the fridge, and the entire kitchen is trashed. I mean, first of all, Rob, you're like, what the fuck did you do in my kitchen? That's my first question. Also, you're running the electricity bill up by leaving the, you know, why are we cool in the indoors sort of like moment. Actually, my first question is, this island is beautiful. When did I get it?

40:29The matching glass Tupperware that they have, which is great and beautiful, was definitely in the maggot tomb. Like, Nevaeh has definitely been taking some leftovers. That was her mom's. That was Faith's Tupperware. Yeah. When she's raiding her own mom's fridge, she's grabbing a bunch of Tupperware out of it. Well, that's some really nice Tupperware. Like, glass Tupperware is, like, on a different level, I think. You gotta preserve your stuff. Okay, anyway. You need that real seal on it. It's very important. Okay, I'm so sorry. Anyway, thank you so much for coming correct on that. You call mom anyone you care about.

40:55Doesn't have to be your child. Standing in front of a fridge has trashed your kitchen. And you're like, hey, are you OK? You doing all right? What's going on? And then they like creepily advance on you and are like, I love you, ma, or I love you, Rob, or whatever. And then they leave. And you're like, OK, this is a good moment to leave this person alone. Now, I understand that she's like, ah, I'm scared by my son. That makes me realize that Faith is scared by her daughter. so I can go and back to her and say like, hey, you're not scared of Max, are you? You're scared of your teens because teens are scary.

41:26They are scary. But Zach is just doing weird shit all over the house and nobody is paying enough attention. And the fact that Anna wasn't like absolutely desperately alarmed, she was just kind of slow and curious when she came upon him in the kitchen was so strange to me. It is the speed with which she and Tom move on. Anytime Zach does something weird, Nat, I want to give Nat credit. She at least, when he's like muttering to himself slash a totem, is like, what's going on here? Do you still have all your toes? Your remaining nine toes? Valid question under the circumstances. But yeah, there will be a moment of concern.

42:06And then they just veer off onto their various side quests with no concern for their kids or their family. Which is why I feel like we are totally justified in saying that they are terrible parents. Terrible parents. Just truly awful parents. Like, absolutely terrible. again you know i understand that he's having a tough day but for tom to like and you know he's with his lawyer pal at at the club right getting advice on what to do about lexi or whatever but like continuing the night to drink with max a bad idea for like 900 reasons and that's why tom's on the top of my life never go with max katie to a second location damn it but like he's doing all of that and Zach's at home doing God knows fucking what what are we doing what are we doing here you were just like distraught over taking your kid to the art show in which he got dressed down by another adult for the time that he allegedly maybe kind of sort of somebody definitely did leak this other girl's nudes and you're like time for a bender I mean he is distracted you know what the murderess is correct about that Anna also clearly distracted.

43:14A murderess. A legend murderess. I just think they could take even a moment to care about their kids. It was even striking with Natalie when Anne is coming clean with Natalie about Nevaeh being like, I appreciate on the one hand she brought the receipts. Like, here's the ID. Here's some proof that this girl is not who she says she is. Here's most of what I know. Not all of what I know, because it's TV. What can you do? Don't tell Zach. Don't tell Zach. That part, I could see a parent doing that. Is it when Natalie's like, right, because she couldn't possibly love me, and Anne's like, I'm going to let that go unremarked upon.

43:45No acknowledgement whatsoever. Honey, of course someone would love you. You're so lovable. You're wonderful. Just not this psycho. Let's find you another nice girl. A second for reassurance. It's horrible. Just like completely unremarked upon. Yes. Really bad. So you know what? I'm going to exonerate all of Nat's sextuple texting desperately later in this episode. Maybe, but like not only does, like because not only does she learn all of this stuff from her mom, but like Zach knows like she doesn't tell Zach, but Zach already knows, which means that Nevaeh told him. Maybe not only that, but Nevaeh told him shit that Natalie said to her when they were in bed at Callie's.

44:26Right. I'm not sure if I can love him. Yes. It was the specific thing that she said to Nevaeh that Nevaeh. I mean, we understand why Nevaeh would weaponize that on Zach. Your sister's not even sure she can love you, but the fact that he knows that, why would Nat still want to talk to the person who spilled that to Zach? Sorry, this is a tangled web. It is a very tangled web, but let's, I mean, we're here with Zach. Can we, can we jump straight into his stuff? Is that okay? We're already here. Standing slack jawed in front of the fridge. My proposal to you is that what we see, I mean, agree or disagree.

44:56What we see in this episode is not really Zach at all, but Nevaeh inhabiting Zach's body. I'm being 100 % serious right now. Like he's been possessed? So the last thing we saw, I think she's straight up possessing him. Is it him or is it a possum? Is the spirit of the possum inside it? Well, I don't know where the possum is at this point. We need to confirm the possum's whereabouts. But the last thing we saw last week's episode. Hold on, hold on. Joe, you gotta walk with me on this. Sorry. Okay. You're right. Last week's episode. The last thing we see after Nevaeh has said, oh, you can come see me over text.

45:32Zach shows up. She blows witch dust in his face and says, let's play. That's the end of last week's episode. This week. Is it witch dust its official designation? You know what? I'm not qualified to comment on the names of any drugs anymore. I think we're going to take that away from me. Okay. This week's episode. I think you would agree he's being fucking weird the whole time. Yeah. Weird energy from the jump. Yeah. Now, that could be weird energy of, you know, Nevaeh slash Angel has told me these things that my sister said. She's been with my sister. This is all weird. I'm being removed from the situation and just kind of commenting on it.

46:06And I feel high on my horse as I navigate this episode. I don't think that explains the weird smile. I don't think that explains some of his behavior with Anna. And I would say for me, the closest thing we're going to get to a witch does smoking gun. this episode opens with Nevaeh talking to her mom and calling her ma we've never heard Zach refer to Anna as ma and then when he is in his fridge hypnosis mode and snapped out of it he says I love you ma okay um you want to put possession on on the board I think We simply have to. I don't think I've ever been out crackpot theory so hard by you, Ramaloni.

46:49You're welcome. I want to say one thing, too. The subtitle on Nevaeh's comment to her mom lists it as mom. Goodbye, mom. At the beginning of this episode. I think she definitively says ma. Joe Anders, who's playing Zach Bowden. I think he's wonderful. He's not remarkably human. Like, nothing about his behavior is human. Yes. But it is compelling and unsettling and horrifying and also, like, weirdly charming. Like, when Anna's like, what's that thing you got? He's like, I don't know. Found it out by the garage. Like, he's just so... He's being a real weirdo. Here's my... Yeah. I'm going to try to meet you where you are.

47:30I hope you can because I have more evidence of this theory. You know, we got more somehow. Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, no, please. Is Nevaeh... in the grates? Is she in the basement? I don't think she's in the basement. There's that really weird moment where the camera goes into the grates and we hear like creaking, you know? Yes. And then it goes out the grate into, you know, and it could be just like a fun camera move. Could be. But like, I, you know, it could be a possum. Could be a possum. But she's missing. Where is she? What if she's just in the house? Every time we see Zack, we don't see Nevaeh.

48:07We don't know where she is. I'm just throwing it out here. But look, I agree with you. They can't corporeally be the same person. It would explain a lot of different things. But this is also my suggestion as to like, does Zach actually know the things he's saying? Because everything he's saying is something that Nevaeh knows. And even the weird, like speaking of incest, like nuzzle into kind of kiss that he plays off as I smell alcohol in your breath, but there's clearly something fucking weird happening here. Like perhaps something weird if like two people who actually have had sex together, but one of them isn't happening.

48:43Somebody else's body is bringing a strange energy to the function. I'm just like so excited by this idea that you think there's actual like possession going on in this show. I really kind of do. That's a new level of trash or piece theater. I really kind of do. I think, look, minimum. I support you, Rob. Thank you. Thank you. In your absolute batch. I think at minimum hypnosis. Oh, yeah. So. Well, drug induced hypnosis. Yes. is very plausible to me for some reason. Possession? Absolutely not. Another thing we should say, we've been like sort of, I would say tiptoeing around this, the way that like Santeria is being used in this show.

49:21The fact that faith is like his own kooky religion that he's made up. He made it up. So like perhaps he took the teachings of Santeria and is like, and this is something, a suggestion we made. Yeah. perverted it into his own thing, his own like Katie-ism or whatever. And so Katie-anity, I don't know. Well, we can work on it. I like Katie-anity. But that sort of gives a show cover on like, is this what we would do if we were responsibly practicing Santeria? No. That was Apple legal on the phone. Like, maybe not. Maybe not. So Max just made up his own shit. Yes. Rooted in perhaps the Santeria practice.

50:02I mean, look, there's a lot of strange stuff going on with the maggot den, with all the bones, with the candles, with the toe jar. I'm like, and I'll say this, too, about the general food situation when Zach is sort of like Scooby-Dooing his way through the boat and fridge and whatnot. Also kind of mirrors what Nevaeh is doing in this episode. And so I think at minimum, whatever kind of communing is happening, I wonder if it makes you like ravenously hungry. It's like all of a sudden you are, you just like cannot be satiated for whatever reason. Possession seems like it would take a lot of energy.

50:33It would take a lot. That's what I'm saying. You need to carbo-load before you do it. You really do have to load up. Yeah, absolutely. What else do you want to talk about? Oh, on the fridge front, the light, because we see Zach kind of staring into the fridge light as it beeps and beeps and beeps. I was wondering if it had any connection to two Max Cady things. One, we see him when he's having his club interview with Tabitha, the journalist. When we're introduced to that scene, he gets kind of like a reflection from a swimming pool kind of teal light as he's like staring into space. He do like saying colors.

51:07Me too. We just name them. Me too. Don't know what's going on with that. But like there's a weird light thing that is happening with Max all season where it's like kind of what activates his trauma for some reason. Maybe that's because of the injuries he sustained in prison. Maybe there's some deeper thing with whatever. Oh, that sort of like wincing. Exactly. Yeah. High whining sounds sort of thing. So I think we're just getting like so many light based cues. I'm like, like, what is it about the fridge that Zack is like transfixed on in this moment? Like, what is it that has him like pulling in that direction?

51:37And I really don't know, but there's just like a lot of stuff happening. You can't wait to find out. A couple other pieces of information we have. This sort of like Cape Fear River imagery of the giant cross by the river that we saw in the flashback. Yeah. Returns again in postcard form, right? A postcard to Nevaeh where it's like, someday I will take you there. Is that a threat? I think it's a promise. You think it's a threat? It's both. Anyway, it's just a reminder of that location. And I have to imagine the show's going to take us there at one point to that cross on the bank of the Cape Fear River.

52:09Gotta be. Yeah. This is where I'm curious how the show deals with faith in more familiar contexts. Like all of the Christian imagery that we have. Traumatic. There's a lot of trauma associated with it. Certainly doesn't go well for the character faith in this episode. but like this giant standing cross, like what does it represent? What is its kind of looming nature? Yeah. I can't wait to get to the bottom of that. Can I call out a closed caption moment? Please. So when Max has taken Tom to a secondary location. Don't do it. Don't go. Closed caption, tense, sensual music. Pretty good. Pretty good.

52:51It's going on the board. Let's talk about Ollie. So Ollie, which is Ethan Ebrey's character, we have a name for him, shows up at the bar. Cannot be a coincidence. The bar that Max has taken them to. So do you believe that, even though Max sort of like introduces himself to them, do you believe that Max is the one who sent Ollie and Trish to the pool in the first place? I think maybe so, but maybe through an intermediary of some way. Because they don't seem like they recognize him, right? I don't think they recognize him. Sorry. Yeah. But too dumb to play along with this charade if they do indeed recognize him.

53:26They feel like part of Max's manipulation, but like unwitting victims of it in a sense, right? Like he's the one hitting on Trish and kind of like provoking Ollie in the process. He's the one who headbutts Ollie and then backs out of camera frame to just like let aggro Tom jump into the fray. Perfectly executed. Really so. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think he has a sense that they might be at this bar perhaps, like that they are pieces that can be moved around the board. but I don't think they really know who he is at all. That's what I'm saying. It's like I was re-watching their faces to try to see if there was any sort of familiarity there and it really did seem like they didn't know who he was.

54:00But he could still be involved in the whole Threatening Mediary, as you say. Maybe he used Nevaeh. Maybe Nevaeh possessed someone in order to make it happen. Maybe they had Tom's fake voice leaving a message somewhere or sending them a text. Hey, this is Tommy, y 'all. Are they dropping by the pool? Just soak your feet. Okay, listen. I really do think Tom is like our chief candidate in Too Dumb to Live. But also inside this episode, Anna does go to the scene of a crime. This is the only nominee. And handles the murder weapon. Listen, I'm not a fancy Savannah lawyer. Yeah. But I have watched a TV show or movie.

54:44And here's what I know. You don't pick up the knife and or little cowrie shell statue thing and handle the murder weapon. Why would you do that? To all of the murderesses out there, alleged or otherwise. Yeah, to all the murderesses you've known before. Don't put your hands in the blood-soaked instruments of death. And then don't get the victim's blood. You're not your victim, but somebody else's on your clothing. Yeah, on your phone. And then think about calling the cops, but don't. Every move bad. Every move bad for Mana. Going there, bad. Yeah. Lingering, bad. Yeah. Touching the evidence, much worse.

55:20Yeah. Don't do it. All bad. I mean, given your Nevaeh's possessing Zach theory. Don't laugh. Perhaps the answer is, right, seriously, perhaps the answer is both of them. But who did this murder? Was it Nevaeh or was it Zach? Or was it Nevaeh in Zach's body? Or was it the witch possum? I don't think it was the witch possum. Which posse'm innocent? Okay. I mean, I think it's Nevaeh in some form. I'm going to say that. I don't know which one, but I think it was Nevaeh. I also think it was Nevaeh. Yeah. But like, do you think that Anna thinks it might have been Zach? I don't. I think Anna is putting the pieces together that like they're being framed.

56:03And maybe it is staged to look like Zach did it. Right now there's like evidence. I mean, Anna was the last person handling that thing. She put it in a recycling bin. I think it was just the garbage. It's a blue bin, was it not? Anyway, I don't know what the color of the bins are in Georgia. Shells don't recycle, you know? I wouldn't put it in recycling. I'm saying Anna, get it together. Okay. Although, let's be real. Savannah, Georgia, that shit's going in just the dump anyway. Rob. I mean, let's be real about what's happening at our recycling facilities. We got a really nice care package from someone in Savannah, Georgia.

56:31Why are you besmirching? I want to be real. That's happening in most American cities. That's true. That is a fact. That I actually only learned last year. It's tough. It was a real, like, what do you mean? Yeah. The recycling is a lie. We're doing all that work for nothing. It's kind of a lie. Three, four bins? Come on. I do a lot of washing out of containers and carefully analyzing what number is allowed to go in there. My friend made fun of me because she's like, that all goes in the dump. That's just so we can sleep at night. I still don't. All right. Well, in light of perception being as important, if not more important than reality, do we want to run through just like some of what's out there now as a result of this week's episode?

57:08We have security footage of Tom absolutely beating the shit out of Ethan Embry. National treasure, Ethan Embry. Yes, which that doesn't play well. No. I wouldn't be surprised if there's now some footage of Anna in a bloodstained shirt running out of that house. So did you interpret that Anna was being led to Faith's house to begin with? Oh. As part of Nevaeh's scheme? No, but I think it's like a sort of crime of opportunity. Because Nevaeh did call in her own missing persons. Yeah, but she was trying to frame Anna for her for being missing. I don't know that she was necessarily. I don't want to give.

57:49In terms of like Max and Nevaeh and what they're ever able to orchestrate. I think you can you can be both smart and 10 steps ahead of these of these dumb bodens. But also you have to be nimble and like sort of be able to like pivot where you can. So it's like Max approaches Tom, gets information from Tom. It's Tom who's like, hey, someone at work is sort of like pulling some shit on me, you know, like he hands all of the information over to Max and Max does something with it. Yes, but Max already knew, right? Like Max shows up just as Tom is telling his colleague about Lexi and what he should do and is there to conveniently talk about like, oh, this is a sore spot for me.

58:29Alleged murderer when you're wrongly accused. Like, I think there's a level of bugging happening at the Bowden house for sure. Maybe even their phones. Like, I don't know how, I don't know where all the recording devices are, but. How vulnerable are we, Apple? I mean, right? Yeah. But there are so many coincidences. I agree with you about the opportunity. Like, there's times where, whether it's Max or Nevaeh or whoever, however many people are involved in all this, are picking up the ball and running with it, given what's, like, Nevaeh didn't plan to get hit by a car, I don't think. That was just like, this happened?

58:57Let's play it. But she sprung up like a mango. She certainly did. There are just so many times where Max shows up at the exact right time with the exact right line of commentary or request to needle or to provoke or something. I feel like the Bowdoins are definitely being recorded. Oh, I really agree. I just don't know that I think Nevaeh is like, I know I'll report myself missing and then Anna will be at the police station the exact same time. My mom will be there and then they'll meet and they'll have a couple of interactions. And then I will bash my mother's head in and Anna will show up and put her dumb, dumb lawyer hands on the murder weapon.

59:31and then we'll have footage of her smeared in blood leaving the house. But if that's true, why did she or somebody else kill her mom? Nevaeh seems ready to kill anyone at any time. Does she not? She doesn't seem great. She wanted to go gremlin mode on like Callie's dad who she doesn't even know. So like her mom, who she already like hates. Has a very strained relationship with. Yeah, exactly. At least from her perspective. Yeah. I mean, we should note that Faith does feel very strongly that Max has like contorted or manipulated Nevaeh into whatever form she is in now. Changed her. Yes. We don't know what the before was like for Nevaeh either, you know, before her dosages changed.

1:00:10Do you think Max possessed Nevaeh from prison? Maybe taught her how to do it. Okay. You can't really long distance possess. That's the thing. You need proximity. This isn't like - And maybe a toe. This isn't a Last Jedi situation. Like the projection has its limits. Yeah.

1:00:31I think I broke you.

1:00:36Joe, I need you to prepare for the fact that she is 100 % possessing him. That's just the thing that's happening on this show. All right. We should mention before we go that Ray and Anna share a scene in the car surrounded by a lot of beard moss. We did get emails from some Savannah folks who said they only shot for a little bit in Savannah. that I guess they took a bunch of bearded moss with them to Atlanta and like strewn it about the place, like just flung it into trees or whatever. That's authenticity. And so when Anna and Ray are like parked in the rain on a street and there's trees over there and there's just like a bunch of moss dangling, like that was probably placed there for that real authentic Savannah feel.

1:01:21I thought Atlanta as Savannah looked beautiful. Gorgeous. You could like almost chew the air there. But yeah, Ray and Anna have this conversation where he's like, Leave it alone. He said that even after Max Kitty walked up to him and said, hey, nice car, nice ride, I'm jealous. As he should. The advice is not this guy's innocent. It's like, you need to stay out of this. Real consequences are falling on your head right now because you're acting out of pocket. The perception, as Tom lays out, as literally everyone lays out in this episode, is what matters. What does it look like? And then Anna, who has always reminded me of Thanos, is like fine I'll do it myself you know it's really the only way she knows how to do it but to me this was so much about like yeah she's going to basically the last person she has left to go to that she could confide in with this stuff and it's like Tom doesn't believe her at this stage Natalie hates her guts Zach hates her guts I love you ma well that hasn't even happened she doesn't have that affirmation like you know clearly she's going through with the vase she didn't get to finish babe pig in the city and now Ray is like you know what you also need to stay the fuck out of this.

1:02:31Which do you prefer, Babe or Babe Pig in the City? I feel like I actually liked Babe Pig in the City better. Wow. That's a very you take, honestly. I don't know how to take that, but I'm sure there are many of us. So the Bowdens are isolated and disparate in this episode. One of them might be possessed. The other is, you know, but both the Bowden parents are out of a job or at least on suspension. Suspension, yeah. Do you feel like they're united again as a family unit when they're standing all together on the porch regarding Max walk into the house across the street from them. Maybe more than they've ever been sans Zach.

1:03:05Zach's just there. I don't know what's going on with Zach. I mean, clearly, I don't even know internally. Zach is actually Nevaeh. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Who knows what's going on with him? So Nevaeh and Natalie. Do you want to give them, like, is it like Zach Veya? Or like... Oh, a couple name? Yeah. I think we're going to have to stew on that. We should come up with a good couple name for them. Okay. I mean, but if they're like two souls in one body. Well, yeah, they're intertwined. Okay, great. hopefully Tom and Anna can get on the same page now. Well, he does finally believe her. He's like, I was wrong.

1:03:32Also, early in the episode when she's like, we need to talk to Natalie. He's like, you need to talk to Natalie. I'm like, this is how we got here, guys. We're not a unit at all. I actually think that one was fair. Was it? From Tom's perspective, your wife just shoved a teenager in front of a moving car who happens to be dating your daughter, kind of, or at least she wants to date her. The feral teenager bit her on the hand. But that's not on the video. I'm pro-shove, honestly. It's what it looks like. Look, in the moment, knowing what we know, if someone bites your hand, you get to shove them.

1:04:03I think that's a fair trade. Absolutely. Tom doesn't have all that evidence. It's in the Ten Commandments. It really is. An eye for an eye, a shove for a bite. Yeah, absolutely. All right, anything else you want to talk about? Let's go to the board. Let's go to the board. We're going to wrap up this completely normal podcast with a completely normal thing to do on a podcast, which we are going to unveil which cards we will be adding to. What are we calling this? We go back and forth. I mean, it is a conspiracy board of a kind. The Cape Fear conspiracy board. Yeah. Rob, would you like to go first?

1:04:30I would love to. With the most important revelation of this week's episode, we're talking possession. Definite absolute possession. We are so sure of it. There's nine question marks there. That is part of the text of the show. A new character card, Detective Grayson. We're adding him to the board. Do you think he survives the season? No. So long, Detective Grayson. Absolutely not. Another new character introduced this week. Yeah. The gator bong. The gator bong. We've decided it is a gator. We consulted the tape. It is definitely a gator. We checked it. I mean, maybe some dragons look like that.

1:05:00I don't know. Speaking of Nevaeh movie theaters, fish-based crimes. There are multiple. Adding to the board. Chekhov's heating vent. Yes. There's creaks. There's groans and moans coming from there. I'm a little worried. Could be all kinds of surveillance. I mean, maybe there is a tunnel underneath the Bowdoin house. A drone in the heating vent? I think you'd hear that. The echo for the flying drone in the vent? Although maybe we'll connect them. We'll put them close enough where they could be connected. The right dosage. Question mark. We're not sure. We're really not. The other thing we're not sure about, Joe.

1:05:34Spit stuff. Spit stuff. You know what you did. I'm pretty anti-spit stuff. Are you? I gotta say. Of this variety. I mean, honestly, if you're into this in the form of this show, email us. I think of a baby carrot at gmail.com. I'm honestly curious. Okay, Rob. You know what? I'm going to follow that up with tense, sensual music. If you want to put some tense, sensual music on and then email Rob Mahoney about spit stuff, you can go ahead and do that. See, now you made it weird. You made it weird by saying email us about spit stuff. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. Okay. That must be somebody's thing.

1:06:10You know what my thing is? Entropy. Tom and I, unfortunately, do have this in common. You really do. I was thinking about you a lot, actually. I feel like you might also share some of this, though. Okay. It's an us problem. And how do we deal with it? Drinking problem. Natalie's drinking problem, our drinking problem. See, I'm still not convinced that Natalie has one. Okay. A sip here and there. We'll see. Standard teenage behavior as far as I've been, you know, led to believe. Speaking of belief, Faith. These segues are out of control. Just rest in peace. We barely knew you. Yeah. But hopefully we will learn more about Faith or Nevaeh's upbringing in some form or fashion.

1:06:48I think not the last, but one of the last characters we're adding to the board is the alleged murderess Catherine Buckley, my new favorite character. Thank you for covering us legally. You're welcome. I really appreciate that. We went back and forth on what to call this. We're calling it the Cowrie murder weapon. Yeah. The totem. The bust head thingy. Yeah. Whatever it was that was used to ex-faith. Not recyclable. Not recyclable. Don't put it in that bin. All right. Freeze frame Mahoney. The lawyer's secret, the movie poster that we had. I think this applies to Tom, to Anna, to a number of people.

1:07:23I didn't even ask. Have you seen The Lawyer's Secret? Is it a real movie? I would assume. I don't know that those are real movies. Oh, wow. I think we need to get to the bottom of that. We might have to have a viewing party. Okay. The AI voice slop, voicemails, voice notes. Can't keep brushing up against me. That should have been the tell. Who would say such a thing? The Cigar Locker. Yeah. I'm deeply disappointed it doesn't have a cooler name. I'm glad it exists, though. I'm also glad that Romeo, a.k.a. Romeo the dog. Romeo. Romeo the dog does exist. He will be menacing someone. Will it be peanut butter?

1:08:01Will it be the kids themselves? Protect peanut butter. I just think if this dog shows up in a non-walking daytime situation, bad things are happening. Okay. Last but not least, it's just a card we're replacing another card with. Microdosin. Or Microdosin on this show. It's the more accurate representation of what's happened. And apparently LSD. So tune in to find out. Thank you to Kai Grady. Who else were you thinking? Dev Rinaldo. Jacob Cornett. Of course. And LSD, I guess. Yeah. And animal skulls that I swear it better not be the possum. Thank you, Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Joe. See you soon. Bye.

1:08:52This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much please for the love of everything good in this world stop with Mint you can get premium wireless for just$15 a month of course if you enjoy overpaying no judgments but that's weird okay one judgment anyway give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch upfront payment of$45 for three month plan equivalent to$15 per month required intro rate first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra See full terms at MintMobile.com.