‘Furious’ Episode 7: Revenge, Rihanna, Repeat

21:21Rob:But I'm also just like telling you a truth about yourself and I'm going to tell you a truth right back to you. I don't even know that it's meant to wound so much as, at least from Nora's perspective, my read on this scene was like so much placed or misplaced frustration in the way things went. It's like all of this blew up and I just need to point a finger at somebody. Even if like, I think she is fully aware that her grandstanding is a big part of the reason all of this imploded. But right now she needs to point a finger at somebody and she needs to take out the claws on somebody. And it happens to be Alice and Alice is right there to reciprocate to be fair.

21:54Rob:And Alice is like, I see what you need right here and I'm not gonna like just take it, like literally lying down because I'm in a hospital bed, But like I'm going to fling something back at you. I mean, it goes back to like earlier in the season when I was like, oh, Nora really disappointed me when she made Alice feel bad about something she had discovered. And in this case, I wasn't so much disappointed as I was just like, this is just classic Nora. And I feel like Alice better knows how to navigate it now where she's like, this is something Nora is going to do. And I don't need to take it as seriously as I took it before because this is something she needs.

22:27Rob:and I could just be like, okay, Nora's gonna blame me, but we all know it's not my fault at the end of the day. I think the difference between those things is we expect Nora to be prickly. We expect her to lash out. Like this is a flawed human person who has been stuck and stifled by this system for so long. What we didn't expect is for her to like roll over when she got pressed by Ed George. Like basically the first time we saw it this season. Right. And that's why that felt so frustrating until she doubled back, until she got involved with the case again. And it's like, it's a totally different thing to me.

22:58And it speaks to what you just brought up in terms of the lack of follow-up on anything that happens in the hospital when they do reunite at the bar for karaoke time. It's like, these are two people who, this is, I would say what they have most in common is they don't need the heart to heart. Like they just need to get back in the car and work the case and be out all night freezing in the Bronx outside this motel. Like -

23:21Rob:Might have to sing. Might have to sing. Although we didn't get any of that follow-up. Maybe, you know, the coffee was stronger than she expected. But this is who these people are. And I love that we didn't overly sentimentalize any of that. We do, I mean, we get into some fury talk. We get into some very direct, like thematic connection in a very TV writerly way. But these two people who are, I would say like more focused in working the case than they are focused in working on themselves just get to do that thing. Wow, pouring yourself into work rather than looking inward? What's that about? I don't know.

23:54Rob:I've never heard of it. Interesting. Alice lies to Nora, right? She says Catherine asked if she should shoot Marshall and she said, I said no. Why lie? Yeah. Nora makes this comment about dying, pressing the wrong button while making instant noodles in a government issued microwave. Rob, what's the saddest meal to die by? Oh, that's a great question. SpaghettiOs. Oh, not the beanie weenies, which you came for earlier this year? I don't know. So beanie weenies at least reeks of a survival prepperism that I can understand. You know, you're at the end of days. Society has collapsed. It's paradise.

24:30You're clinging to your last beanie and weenie. Right. But if you're putting your SpaghettiOs in, I mean, here's the thing. If the fully stocked grocery store is available to us in a Graceland scenario, and I need to figure out what I'm going to survive on, SpaghettiOs are among the last thing that's going to be taken off that shelf.

24:45Rob:Yeah, no nutritional value, horrible texture. I would rather dance with Chef Boyardee ravioli or something than that. Because at least there's like a meat-like substance in the ravioli. There's in theory a nutritional value. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. But what's your take? Oh, I thought I could just like. You usually just hand these things off to me like a bomb and wait for them to explode in my face. But I'm going to ask you to call out something specific. What about like Easy Mac? What? That's the saddest meal to die by? Easy Mac? I mean, first of all, Easy Mac, delicious. No, but like Easy Mac.

25:19Our producer, Kai Grady, might not agree publicly had to eat some Easy Mac. Didn't go well for him.

25:25Rob:Mac and cheese, like Kraft Mac and cheese takes five minutes. Yes. Easy Mac takes like three minutes. So you're saying, what are you doing? On principle, the idea that you have tried to short change the system of Kraft Mac and cheese. Short change a five minute process into a three minute process. Look, I agree with that. But if you did die eating any variation of Kraft Mac and cheese, I think it would be a perfectly fine way to go. Or maybe like a lean cuisine stir fry. Healthy choice stir fry. You know what I mean? Anything where you're making... The limpest red bell pepper in the worst teriyaki sauce you've ever had.

25:56Yeah, you sold me.

25:57Rob:Yeah, there we are. Okay. Danny and Marshall's mom. I really liked this episode. I like these characters. Marshall's mom is the most cartoonish character inside of this show. Even in the way she talks. Like, she's the most cartoonishly old, old lady. because that woman did famously voice Patty Mayonnaise on the animated show Doug so like she does always sound like a cartoon to me but like did you know she lost a baby God knows how like a complete non sequitur like a really strange interaction other than setting up like some exposition talk later no that's all it was it was just dropping exposition this is like similar to when Danny was like hey Marshall do you know what Alice does she pays people to beat her up people are just like sharing information out of nowhere in a really weird way.

26:45There are some shortcuts, but that one in particular, because it is deployed, not just as conversation fodder, do you know what Alice does? But like, this is the worst thing I can say about, this is the worst thing I can imagine somebody doing is being a teenager alone and in pain. It's like, what?

27:02Rob:I think also in terms of like setting the story up or setting the characters up, having Danny just be so stalwartly defensive of Alice in this exchange where he's like, what the fuck was your son doing outside a woman's shelter drunk off his ass? Like, let's talk about that. So stalwartly like on Alice's side sets us up for where he is later in the episode when he can't be everything she wants him to be in that scene. But we've seen him sort of be a hero for her elsewhere in the episode, you know? I mean, that's really the one time maybe all season they haven't been able to really get on the same page on something this critical.

27:42It's like what to do with this flash drive. And for understandable reasons, he can't bring himself to like loop Alice into all this mess to put that in front of other people to make it part of the case for everything it would entail.

27:54Rob:I still don't understand. I mean, I guess if Eduardo from IT or whatever department, forensic tech, I don't want to like demean Eduardo. I don't know what he does. He can tell. You don't know what he does? He does a good job around here, Joe. I can tell. He can tell that. He does a great job because he can tell the files were copied off of the laptop. So I guess probably Eduardo or one of his counterparts could tell if a singular file was removed from that flash drive. They could. Why don't we, and I'm not in tech. I don't know if you've noticed. Can we transfer all the files from that flash drive onto another flash drive except for the Alice file?

28:41I would think this is a pretty...

28:42Rob:Rather than delete one off the flash drive, why don't we transfer them all to a brand new one and we just skip one and then we have a whole flash drive full of incriminating evidence and not the one thing that we don't want other people to see. I think this is a great solution. And frankly... Danny Kelly, call me. Look, Danny Kelly, you got to make copies of this flash drive first of all. We're not trying to like get too many copies of the very delicate child pornography that's on it. But like. When Ed George gets in the back of your car. You've got to have more than one. You just have to have more than one.

29:13Rob:Yeah. And I think one of my favorite things about Danny and Alice going back to her place and him kind of settling her back. And I mean, for one, great banter, which makes all the stuff later that much painful. The heart like them coming together is really powerful. But the way in which he sets the flash drive on her nightstand as if he's been like holding it in his hand for six straight hours and like finally can put it down somewhere safe. Yeah. There's just so many small parts of their exchange. I just found like really knocked me over the head in a good way. Before we get into that Danny and Alice stuff, which I want to do all at once.

29:43Rob:Is there anything else you want to say about my boy, Troy, Frank Choi? Well, even even before that, I don't want to scoot past the hospital stuff too fast with Nora and Alice, because to me, it's like so much of that conversation with them. And this ties back into their Draven stuff you brought up. Our SpaghettiOs conversation didn't fulfill the promise. It was fulfilling, but maybe not fulfilling in exactly the way that I need. Because Nora has told me, and characters have said repeatedly throughout the season, like, this is about means and ends. And I find it really interesting, the parallel of, you know, like, is it righteous to murder the people who traffic and abuse young girls?

30:22And at the same time, is it justified for cops to exploit often those same young girls for the sake of getting to the people who trafficked and abused them in the first place. Who gets to do what, to whom, and when, and sleep at night is clearly something everyone in this show is trying to wrestle with. For my money, Catherine seems to be sleeping real well. She seems resolved in what she is trying to do. Yeah. Everyone else is in shades of gray and trying to navigate it.

30:48Rob:Yeah, she's got a real Tim Oluf on it was justified, sort of like Demi or two. He was right, she's right.

30:57Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car? I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

31:03Rob:Uh, sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no... No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyer's rejoice? Ugh, I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyer's rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Corvana.com. This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app. The sooner you start investing, the more potential you have to build your money. Even for beginners, SoFi makes it simple with an easy-to-use app to get you going.

31:40SoFi is offering up to$1 ,000 in stock when you open and fund a SoFi self-directed brokerage account. Learn more at SoFi.com slash Spotify. Brokerage offered through SoFi Securities, LLC. Member FINRA slash SIPC. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios, The Dog Stars. Only in theaters and IMAX this Friday, visionary filmmaker Ridley Scott returns with a gripping post-apocalyptic thriller when a mysterious radio transmission shatters a lone pilot's isolated existence. He embarks on a dangerous journey in search of hope. Starring Jacob Elordi, Josh Brolin, Margaret Qualley, Allison Janney, and Guy Pearce.

32:21The Dog Stars, only in theaters and IMAX this Friday. Get tickets now.

32:26Rob:Frank Choi versus Ed and the NYPD. I mean... What's the official statement of the Choi boys after this episode? A hero and a scholar. Yeah. I would say the bar's in hell when Frank Choi is the moral center of the room. And that's where we find ourselves. Nora's not there. Alice isn't there. Danny Kelly isn't there. It's just Frank Choi, Ed, Marty Fontanesca and the rest. And they're all talking around sort of like death by NYPD is sort of the desire for Catherine. And Choi's like wait a minute. Choi who was our antagonist for a few episodes earlier this season. And I thought that was, I always think it's interesting when like not just like people start as antagonists and change their mind, but it's more that like the moral center in the room shifts.

33:14Rob:So all of a sudden Choi, who was like on the far right of this conversation, let's say, is like the lefty in the room who's like maybe we don't kill her. I don't know. Something to think about. Well, especially when like Ed George, part of why he's such a brilliant character is that he represents like a very specific kind of middle management evil that is like... He's got a perfect face for that. Perfect face, perfect comportment. Like in this scene, he is the coolest head in the room, right? Like everyone is shouting. He's the guy being like, well, now let's hold on. Let's like, let's back up.

33:47Let's zoom out. Let's let's talk this through. And the way in which that sort of approach is not a virtue, like sometimes it is just meant to protect people in power, to sweep things under the rug,

33:58Rob:to stall out processes with like good natured patience and introspection. Yeah. I just find to be like such a such a great addition to the show and such a critical reason why, as we alluded to earlier, like the systems are just impossible to see their way through because there's an Ed George in the middle of almost everything. So this is Danny McCarthy's the actor and I don't think I'm like really familiar with his work, but I think the way in which you can see, because Ed George is a character who should be, there's a version of this performance where he's like panicking. Yes. Since we met him panicking.

34:31Rob:Instead, what we get often with his character and we mentioned it before is sort of like wheels turning. So you're watching him try to like problem solved. What's next? What's next? What's next? And if what's next involves you like in the stall of the men's room doing an enhance, enhance, enhance on a screen to like zero in on Danny Kelly and then research Danny Kelly's son and like have, you know, you hope ammunition. But even when Danny like puts his face into the sidewalk and puts his shoe on his face in a way that I really enjoyed. Just very satisfying. I really enjoyed. Stands up. He looks like rumbled and dumpy for a second, but then he just sort of like straightens his very expensive coat and he's just sort of like, what's the next plan?

35:12Rob:Gotta call Hope Davis, I guess, because she's fucking evil. Great. Well, I think he was calling the NYPD first. Did he? He was trying to get through to Marty. Yeah, he's like, what's happening? Assumingly so he could throw Danny under the bus and start like, you know, doing his usual routine, but instead learns. He's like, what's going on? I mean, really what he learns is that his utility in this story is almost at an end. Well, there's only one more episode. I mean, frankly, all of our utility is almost at an end. Life is short. We are but blinking grains of sand drifting in the grand scheme of the universe.

35:42Rob:Welcome back from Hawaii, Rob. Thank you. But here, it's like the more that Catherine and Jay Easton in particular are on a physical collision course. Yes. Ed George is not built for that. He's not going to throw his body in front of anything. He's here to obfuscate. And there is less and less to obfuscate as we get closer to the end of the season. I think I'm going to say that word. Okay. Danny and Alice. really devastating. When she's like, I want to go to the shore with you. Pull my heart out of my chest. She says she loves him so much. Like, you know, I love your hands. I love everything. And then she says that there's a part of her, there's a part of me that's not good and I don't know how to make it better.

36:28Fuck me right up, Joe.

36:29Rob:And later, Nora will identify in Alice, she's like, you're different when you talk about Catherine. So there's just like, in terms of like talking about the darkness that exists inside of Alice and where she's being pulled in one direction or another, she's like, there's something in me that recognizes something in Catherine, especially in having had that like close proximity to her in the last episode. And just sort of like, there's some part of me that's not good. And whether that's what she was told by her parents, whether that's the reaction to, you know, whoever it was that put her on tape and all the things that happened to her during that traumatic experience of her life, or whether she's just sort of like, there is an anger in me.

37:13Rob:There is a fury in me. There is a vengeance in me. See, I would almost push back against the idea that that part of her, weird as this sounds, because we're talking about a literal serial killer, is not good. Welcome to my story. Well, I say this, especially in conjunction with Nora, who like the real... We've been waiting for you. As long as I'm still welcome around here. Oh, of course. Nora's so much more distance from Catherine and everything because she has just seen and done and investigated too much. She is trying to get through the day and drinking to keep her wings to make that even remotely possible.

37:48Right. So she's not going to connect with Catherine because I don't know that Nora... We don't know her full story.

37:54Rob:We don't know her full story, but she doesn't seem capable of connecting with a lot of people anymore. Like she is at a very difficult part in her life. Alice is too, but she's so new to this and it's so raw and this is so fresh and the connection is so visceral in terms of what Catherine has been through and what Alice herself has been through, whether who's to speak of what parts that she's conscious of or not. It feels human that she would see something in Catherine that she understands. If you were Alice and you didn't see something in Catherine you understand, I would worry about you. I would worry about your ability to understand your fellow human being and try to like broach any gap between you.

38:31Versus I think Nora in ways that sometimes makes her very good at her job is not interested in that gap. She sees the face on the corkboard and she's like, we need to bring this person in. What are the pieces we need to do to make that happen? And Alice is not doing that just yet.

38:44Rob:And I'm like, kill more people, Catherine. Here's what I think is, I think that's an interesting point. I think what's interesting is like who Alice is interested in making a connection with. Yes. Like Amy and her fucking pairs get shut all the way down and we understand why. Yeah. We do. Don't bring this Harry and David shit to me. Like, I don't want it. Don't throw Harry and David under the table like that. They're doing fine work. The pears? Granted, there are better varietals of fruit if you're going to bring fruit. But also, like, I would bring, I would bring, like, a chocolate and nut combination before I would bring a pear.

39:16I mean, it's true.

39:17Rob:Yeah. This is kind of the folly of this particular, like, feel better, get well soon fruit basket situation. But also, mom used to make me eat pears when I was sick. Well, she's speaking from what she knows. And I think, like, it's so interesting. And in some cases, kind of funny. Like, the whole take the pairs thing is, like, I mean, meant for a laugh. Like, there are bits of this that are supposed to be funny. But also take the fucking pairs, Amy. Completely. Yeah. But Amy is the most normal person on this show. Define normal. But sure. Like, well, the most insulated from damage. That's what I mean.

39:46She shows up doing the normal human thing, which is, like, she's trying to connect with her somewhat, like, disconnected sister, who's, like, she's trying to be there. She's even trying to ask like the hard question.

39:55Rob:I understand that. I just like would slightly push back on the word normal there and just say like conventional, like the most conventional person. Do you know what I mean? Sure. I mean, the most day to day has not been exposed to a lot of predators or child pornography or been trafficked. Must be nice. In terms of Danny and how he sort of tells Alice about this and what he tells her, like he does literally say it's not your fault what happened to you but he also says someone did this to you hit a camera how old were you did you know it was out there there are light accusations laced inside of those questions do you know what I mean that's not I mean I think he genuinely wants to know and I think Danny Kelly is like one of the best people on this show and I like genuinely love him but I think even though he says it's not your fault.

40:50Rob:I think if I were Alice, there's no way I would be able to hear those questions and not hear. Did you know about this and you hit it for me? Did you know about the camera? Were you performing for it? Like, you know, how old were you? You were tainted goods, like all these other things, the way in which Emmy Rossum is sort of like grasping at her neck as she's sort of trying to process this conversation with him. So again, I think Danny did like the best job he could do. I'm not like disappointed in him, but I do think unintentionally there are accusations inside of this conversation that he tries to have with her.

41:24I think both things are absolutely true. Like you would, if you were in Alice's position, hear accusation, hear something that even just feels pointed or a little more Barbie than you're like, and I said, I mean, like having barbs than you're used to associating with Danny. And from Danny's perspective, you can also see him trying to do the thing he didn't do last time with Marshall,

41:44Rob:which is like, ask the questions. Like, figure out what actually happened. Figure out what she actually went through. And like, to me it read, I mean, clearly there is the part of that that is just wounding for Alice. And specifically, I mean, Amy Rossum has been on fire this season. Like, this performance is tremendous. And what she's giving in that, like, grasping at her neck, wordless face acting in a lot of this scene is like, this is a person who's just like, getting hit by a car, whether she remembers this thing or not. Yeah. And the fact that it's like playing on loop in her head and it's just like the trauma and the impact over and over.

42:20And specifically the idea that she and this guy who she like, they've been in each other's orbit and are in love and have been like figuring out how to say this to each other and finally do. And the reason it can't happen right now is because he has seen this thing that he can't unsee.

42:37Rob:Yeah. And so it's the car crash just hitting her all over again. And it's awful to see, but it is an incredible performance. What more will this take from her? Right. Right? I have been worried since the beginning because Chris Ryan planted the seed in my head that, like, Danny Kelly would die before the season was out. It might still happen. But there are tragedies perhaps worse than one of the other dying, which is just sort of, like, circumstantially, I don't know. Our listener Rosie wrote in. Well, first of all, one of our listeners wrote in to let us know I missed this, but when Alice signed into the shelter in last week's episode.

43:10Rob:She signed her name Alice Kelly. Demonstrating. Okay. I listen to Rosie wrote in to say, early in the season, we saw Alice's noted interest in the locked room where Nora goes to view the child sexual abuse material. We are intentionally shown Alice looking longingly at the locked door again a few episodes later. Also, I believe in the first conversation Nora and Alice ever have, it comes up that Alice initially applied to be part of Nora's team in the sex crimes department. Feels to me. like from the beginning of her career, Alice has been motivated to find and erase whatever videos of her might exist.

43:44Rob:I don't know if I agree with this, but this is Rosie's point of view. Seems unlikely that the video shows Alice, Rosie wrote this after last week's episode. Seems unlikely that the video shows Alice with Jay Easton since the show has not given us any hints that she's after him specifically beyond following the trail that Catherine's laying out. Earlier, she told Marshall that her teen pregnancy was a result of running away and falling in love, but could it be from being trafficked? So like, we still don't know every single gruesome detail of what happened to Alice here. And I did see some pushback from viewers after the revelation that Alice was on that drive, that it all felt too coincidental.

44:23Rob:but I think the fact that it's not Jay on the video that it's just sort of like Jay's museum, his smorgasbord of, of depravity that he like must have, you know, he's like a collector of this shit. So like she winds up on there because this thing happened to her. Um, but it's not directly connected to like one of his parties necessarily or something like that. So, um, does that, does that, slightly less direct connection make it all feel more plausible at the end of the day. I think so. I haven't been interpreting that lingering shot of the locked down child pornography viewing room at the FBI.

45:05It's like, as you said, like her trying to get in there to erase something necessarily. But even just in knowing how young she was and what she went through, the idea of what lies beyond that door and what would drive someone who's lived through that, whether she knows that she was on tape or not, to want to protect other people from similar things. Like that's the character beat that I think is there and interesting. The coincidence is driving that and driving the motivation of her. But I agree, it would have been weird if it was Jay Easton. Like she'd been in a room with Jay Easton and we didn't see any flicker of anything from her other than like, I want to get this guy in general.

45:40But yeah, so that would have been odd if that were the case.

45:43Rob:Anything else you want to say about the Danny and Allison interaction here? I'm actually good. Where else do we want to go? Nora and Frank. Nora's back at work I mean talking about this is our our most comedic scene Nora's back at work microwaving her coffee he's like you're microwaving your coffee that's so sad it is a little sad I don't know I have a nostalgia for it because my grandma used to do it so it just sort of like just drink the room temperature coffee it's gonna be fine I do also like kind of like cold coffee it's fine yeah anyway he's talking to her about Ed and she's taking her like her mental health quiz right the activities that are not acts of self-care, taking a hot bath, catching up on emails, talking to a therapist.

46:23Rob:The way that he like bends down seriously to look at the screen and answer the question. He's so credulous in a really delightful way. Excuse me, though. Sometimes answering, catching up on emails. I'm so glad you brought this up. Can be an act of self-care. Joe, thank you for understanding and understanding me. I mean, we're fundamentally not well people, I think, Rob. But at the end of the day, I was like, excuse you. I mean, my inbox is a mess. You've seen. I have. Yeah. This is why I wasn't sure where you would come down on this critical issue because us inbox zero people managing the incoming emails is an act of self-care.

47:01Oh, it's crucial. It's simply how we get through the day.

47:04Rob:Once you're at zero, you have to stay at zero. You have to stay. Yeah. Yours is all over the place. Yeah. But clearly there's some management required that can bring you peace of mind at night. It's mostly like weeding out the emails I don't have to read. Sure. to just leave room for the emails I'm neglecting to respond to. Does that make sense? So which of the emails from our listeners are you not reading? Oh, no, I read all of our listener emails. Just wanted to make sure. Those are much more important. All right, yeah. And then Troy says, fine, don't tell me. It's going to fuck my whole career.

47:34Rob:Great stuff. We already mentioned Ed in the men's room. Great stuff from Ed. Allison, anything else you want to say about the Allison Amy scene? I mean, again, I find what she's doing to be like pretty understandable as far as like trying to show up for someone you don't fully understand. Oh, yeah. But it also... I just have an issue with the word normal in general. Honestly, very fair. But yeah, I don't think Amy's like a bad actor inside of this scene. And I do think that idea of like you grew up in a different house, not just like a physically different, but like that resentment that one can have if you had a terrible experience with your parent, but you watch your parent, then parent someone else better or become a great grandparent.

48:13Rob:and you're like, where the shit was this energy for me, that is really hard to do with. Oh, brutal. I completely get why I also want no part of any of this, especially that idea of this was your mom's parallel life and the family that you could have had, but she disowned you because you were pregnant when you were 14 for what we now know to be just like horrific circumstances. It's awful all the way around. I just feel a little bit for Amy who has stepped into a story she does not understand. She doesn't get it. Look, showing up after Danny left, not great timing. showing up after all this not great timing she also has not seen the season of furious so she doesn't know everything we know which is she should sit down and watch it it's a great show it's really good Amy you'll love it okay Nora and Alice work the case we've already mentioned the karaoke the Hawaiian shirt I'm gonna be retired soon yeah the no bra my baby's swinging back and forth the way she like taunts the man who's looking at her all this sort of good what do you how did you feel about the meatloaf choice here good great karaoke song disagree.

49:13Rob:Whoa. Too long? It's got a long instrumental section. But she's doing a full-on dance break. I think you have to perform it. What do you do during a long instrumental break in a karaoke song? Well, I simply don't. Yeah. I'm looking at things in that pretty sweet tops four-minute runtime on that song. A short song that everyone knows so they can sing along with you, that's my ideal karaoke experience. And this is a banger song. But any meatloaf song is, first of all, like seven minutes long. They are too long. Like Paradise by the Dashboard Light, like that's an incredible song. There's an instrumental, like I wouldn't, I simply wouldn't with an instrumental break.

49:50Rob:But maybe if I was shit, a shit face isn't right. See, I think it's, it's a different, these situations, big room karaoke at a bar in front of everybody is a very delicate dance in terms of song. Do I want everyone doing this? No. But if you can hold the room. Well, yes. At one of our Spotify pilgrimages to Stockholm. Yes. I watched a Swedish man. Yeah. hold us all on the tip of his finger. Oh, yeah. As he falsettoed, I will always love you. And when she when she hit the drop, Joe, it may be the happiest moment of my entire life. So it can be done. It's just you got it. You got to be able to hold the room.

50:24Rob:No, of course you can be done. And I've seen people do it. I'm just saying for myself, I would never pick something with an instrumental break. But yeah, some people are karaoke wizards and they're just sort of like they can make anything into an absolute dynamite show. Nora is killing it here, honestly. So they go to stake out the motel. Nora says, good, you're using me, right? Just before she's going to be like, oh, not like that with a child. But Heart Island, that's where they all go. That's an episode title of the finale. Oh, no. Is Heart Island. So that's all I know. I feel great about that.

51:00Just very uplifting stuff. Thanks, Joe.

51:02Rob:But that's where all the Jane Does go, the unnamed graves. And she's usually like, we stack them three graves deep or whatever. Heart Island. Jesus Christ. It's going to be a very uplifting finale, I can tell. Did I say scared? We don't get scared. We can kill men with our bare hands. It's true. Hot. Great. Anything you want to say about the sort of siege of the motel here? We get the Fury saying, big muscular wings right out of my back. Yeah. I really think you should contemplate that when you're podcasting, just thinking about like... Big muscular wings. Big muscular wings. It's a very manly thing, you know?

51:42I guess. But what if I want more of a feathered look? Okay.

51:45Rob:A feathered or like maybe like something gossamer-y and glittery. You can have whatever you want. I mean, why not all of the above? Yeah. You know? I think it could be muscular and glittery. Sure. I love that for you. Nora tackles this man who literally goes by big bands. Yeah. She just like takes him down. That's her job. This is what this is her shit. Great.

52:09Rob:And then Alice goes hard on Elena. It's like, Isabel was your mom. Yeah. And then goes hard on Catherine, but hard on Catherine in a way where she's like, you get what I'm doing. Right. You know, like, but first she's like, there's no deal for you. There was she lies to her. She's like, there's nothing on the laptop. I mean, technically true. But like she's like, but Danny Kelly has sweatily been grasping a thumb drive that could be very helpful. what do you think a flash drive has better chance of surviving Cape Fear River or the palm sweat of one Danny Kelly he does seem like a very sweaty man but a dirty and like that's a pretty dirty river in Cape Fear I just I think between the water and the grime that flash drive isn't making it out alive yet another case of like how is any of this stuff actionable I don't know Alice and Catherine anything else you want to say about this search incident to arrest baby it's just any time they're in the same room, it's electric stuff.

53:04And this is the tension of these stories, right? It's like, how much can you do this? How much can you find plot reason for them to be in the same place?

53:10Rob:What if season two is just them like Thelma and Louising around the country killing Batman? Fucking sign me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I would be down for that. I'm down for Alice on the Lamp. Just the little smile that Catherine gives her when she finally realizes, oh, this woman who seems insane and maybe is kind of insane in front of me is letting me off for this very specific purpose. Like when she starts putting the pieces together, the show just clicks into such a high gear. Yeah. And I want those two actors. I want those two characters in the same spaces. It's just we are, I think, not long for that particular world.

53:41Rob:I don't know what's going to happen here. All right. Danny and the medical examiner and Ed. He's a real one. Kevin, Kevin at the morgue. Kevin, the medical examiner. Kevin, the Emmy. Emmy, Kevin. He's showing up. Yeah. He's doing it. I also want to shout out Danny's Marty Fontanesca impression, which I thought was incredible. Immaculate. Really, really good. Nora tries to call Alice when Alice is driving to the Jay Easton compound and Alice ignores her. Well, that's just good legal driving. Sure. Hands free, baby. So Nora calls Danny and is like, I can't drive, I'm drunk. So she might be an alcoholic, but she's a responsible one.

54:19Rob:She can do... Again, good legal maneuvering. She can do copping police work when she's drunk but not driving. Well, she's kind of off duty right now. just tackling and handcuffing. I think that was recreational. okay. Okay. Cool. And then we get Ed and Danny in the car. What is it? Money? What is it? Power? You on one of those videos. So what did you, did you, did you interpret anything in Ed's face when he says something like you on one of those videos? Like, do you interpret that as Ed being like, fuck I am? Or it's just what Nora already uncovered, which is that Jay Easton was like the source on the big case that Ed broke.

54:58Rob:Or does it matter? at the end of the day. I saw it more as Danny needling Ed in a way that like, it was nice to see someone who is just completely impervious to all of Ed's bullshit. Were you nervous at all that like... Oh, when he brought up Liam for sure. That like Danny would capitulate. I guess I'm just like constantly worried Danny's going to disappoint me. So like, were you worried and then just like felt so jubilant when Ed's face is like, probably pissed so concrete of New York City? It was just, we were flying high. On a show where we haven't been able to fly high very often. It's been pretty dark stuff happening.

55:33Yeah, we've been pretty bummed out. But to see Danny, who as you alluded to, a character we've invested in and want to believe in, not be enticed whatsoever. Like no moment of hesitation that he would buy any of this. Only the second my son's name comes out of your mouth, I'm putting you on the curb. Our guy. We love it. Come on. I did love too the, like we talked about Danny and Marshall's mother and kind of the clunkiness of some of that exchange. change but what it does set up is the contrast in styles here we're like Danny is the kind of guy who should a police officer be out here threatening people obviously not but if he does do it he's going to be like no I want to make this very clear I am threatening your son versus the Ed Georges of the world it's like how can I cloak myself in three levels of plausible deniability by just like I'm going to bring up your son's name and just casually enter the fact that he's a home into this conversation and you can do with that what you will.

56:27Rob:Also, like to compare what Ed's like, you couldn't raise your own son or whatever. Yeah. Compare it to like, Alden's really funny, like.

56:39Rob:Alden, I miss you. I know. Okay. I've saved the best for last. Father-daughter bonding with Jay and Emma Easton. I mean, you say that and it's not a fun time, but this is unfortunately a really critical and like needily and interesting part of this episode. I guess here's what here's I want to start this conversation. And I'm curious to interrogate this now a little bit, but more even more. You want to tell me what you would have a secret room for? I would. No, absolutely not. But what if you had like a really nice secret room? Why do you need a secret room? You know, you're allowed to have your your secrets, innocuous secrets.

57:18But do they need a room? Maybe. It's already your house. who's out here fumbling around, you know? No, secret passageway, I'm open. A bookcase that slides back and you can, you know, get...

57:28Rob:Into a secret room. No, get across to a different place, sure. Secret room, people have questions. This is tough territory for us because I want to talk about some of the interior decor decisions of that secret room. I want to talk about just the whole situation, but it is so fucked up. We can't be doing that, Jo. We can't be glib and flip about if you can't be critical of the drab gray of the horrible secret. I don't want to call it a sex room. What would you call it? A creep room at best. But it's just awful. It's barren. I'm like, I don't know that it would it be better if it was like cozy with like oriental rugs.

58:09Rob:There's no better. There's no redeeming this situation. Favorite torture chamber decor. This is horrible and disgusting. Poor Lacey. and is so disturbing. So, you know, we've been expecting this whole season that Hope Davis would be here to do more than just be vaguely waspy. She offers Lacey hot cider. Fucked up. And then she goes out into her greenhouse where she's got her nice, like, warm hot cider and a mug and the Pines is playing. She's sticking her hands in the dirt and trying to get through. Well, you gotta wash them with something after all this. I guess. I guess. And then she puts Lacey in the car.

58:50Rob:And she says, you did so well. You made him so happy. Awful. And then Lacey, with a horrible mark on her wrist, stops the door from closing and says, who are you? Many people are wondering. Like, who could you possibly fucking be? Yes. That you're Martha Stewart-ing your way through this fucking scenario. What an insane character. And then to watch her clean the room. Yeah. Like at first I was like, do they have cleaning stuff in there? No. The room is so secret that it has to be Emma herself with the Dyson and the spray, like spraying down surfaces. Absolutely disgusting. Horrible. And then we find out that she has been disposing of his horrific material, but he kept a few hard drives back.

59:40Rob:And the way in which Jay Easton says, I need it. Yeah. Is so disgusting. Clinging to those hard drives with his like dying grubby hands. Like a tantrum that a child would have. I need it. Yeah. Disgusting. And then him trying to just sort of be like, I don't give a shit what you think about me. No one gives a shit what you think. Do you think this is a, I mean, this is the first time she shoved him. This is like a breakthrough moment for her. Okay. Yeah. I mean, we haven't spent a lot of time with this character, but it seemed like a revelation for them both. What do you think broke her? Was it her birthday as the code on the safe?

1:00:18I kind of think it might have been. And this is the thing with this character where very little time spent with Hope Davis all season, kind of popping up here and there, an illusion that she might be more important to this story than we realized. but I think there's an incredible economy with Emma in this episode of you do feel in some small way for this woman who has to clean up after her dad's literal mess with this teenage girl whose own birthday is the key to the safe that houses the remaining child pornography like all that stuff is awful and you can still see her as irredeemable and I want to see over the course of this next episode like how much empathy are we meant to have for Emma.

1:00:57This is a show that has a lot of time and interest in these people who are caught in the middle of situations and the ways in which they act out of self-preservation. I don't think Furious has shown any indication that like Emma's meant to be a good or justified character. Like this is a terrible person.

1:01:13Rob:I think even if she turns on her father like in some way it's too late. Way too little, way too late. Way too little, way too late and how much of that is like what can they what will they do to me? Yes. You're gonna die. they're going to come after me. So how much of that is self-preservation at the end of the day? Similar to Hal having that stuff on his laptop. You know, it wasn't about protecting girls. It was about protecting himself at the end of the day. That's what they're all doing. It's disgusting. There's these clearly disgusting people who are literally having sex with underage girls.

1:01:46And then around them, there's a whole different orbit of disgusting people who are making this stuff possible and are willing to accept like, I'm willing to do this heinous, unforgivable thing for the sake of money, for the sake of proximity to power, for the sake of keeping my job or elevating. It's like creating that structure, I think has been one of the strong points of this season through all of these supplementary characters. And it's like, it's kind of a neat, tidy storytelling way to do it through like a kill list, basically, and kind of working your way up the chain of these various lawyers, but also to get here with Emma and you see kind of like the nuts and bolts, the way in which she is wheeling him at the beginning of this scene And they're just like talking about their day and, you know, taking your meds.

1:02:25And like, it's like such a day in the life as she opens the door to this, like, just one of the most horrific places on Earth. I just think it's great storytelling, even if it is horrible to watch.

1:02:36Rob:I think it's important to just as important as it is to have someone like Danny Kelly, who is like a good man, Savannah, who is like who is like defending Alice. it's important to show the ways in which women can and often are complicit inside of these horrific sex trafficking. And we got this at the very beginning of the season with that young woman that, you know, winds up in the hospital. And Nora is like, she was a trafficker because every young woman she trafficked meant there was less she had to do. Right. So Emma doesn't even have like whatever bare scrap of excuse that young woman had in her circumstance, where it's just sort of like she's a woman born of incredible privilege and like did her dad bully and like all these like you know emotionally abuse her and all sorts of like that absolutely of course but again in this like if we're in this post-epstein space can you be an epstein and move the world without a glenn maxwell like without these women who are just willing to prop up these men um because it suits them or willing to sacrifice you know if you want to get into this like real sort of classical greek mentality it's like these young women being thrown into the onto the pyre you know what i mean and in order to appease the god that is jay easton it's like absolutely disgusting and but i do think it's important that there is a horrible woman on that side of things.

1:04:07Rob:I think it is too. And some of it too is like some of these characters, the Jay Easton types, it's like there is a ghoulishness there that is almost like can't help but poke through. And I think you need characters like Emma to be walking around offering people cider, like a polite face on this like just brutal, like unrepentant operation that they seem to be running. Okay. In terms of the like DNA under the fingernails revelation, So this idea that like Isabel, the DNA that's under Isabel's fingernails is Emma's. Yes. So, I mean, I don't know if it's even interesting to speculate at this point, but like, do you feel like that means that Emma killed her?

1:04:52Rob:Emma was at least there. Yes. When this happened. does that mean Emma's the one who killed her and you know uh with Ed's help or whatever disposed of the body when Hal said earlier this season I was trying to protect her yeah you know plenty of our listeners guessed that he meant Hope Davis so like protect her from what did she the one who committed the crime so was he covering it up to protect her because she's the actual murderer or just covering it up because she was even just there and he didn't want her implicated in one way or another. I mean, all signs seem to point to the fact that she was the murderer for whatever reason, to protect her father's interest, to protect their family or their money, whatever it was.

1:05:35Even if she's not, again, like we alluded to earlier, I don't think it changes the story very much. As weird as that is to say about a murder, but all of these people are so horrible. Just complicit no matter what. Who in the room did it is less important than who was in the room.

1:05:50Rob:Yeah. Okay, just so we don't... end with this sort of flavor in my mouth yeah i would suggest a a brief palate cleanser okay i love this show yeah furious that we're covering it's hard to watch sometimes is the palate cleanser cranking we found love until you scream yourself horse is that the palate cleanser i thought that was really good like when anyway looking at the note anyway do you want to briefly talk about your anticipation for slow horses i mean we definitely can september 16th We are mere weeks away. We will be covering it week to week as we always do. Excitement is ramping up across the board.

1:06:28Rob:I feel like now more than ever, people are excited for Slow Horses. I don't know what, like, it's a popular show. It's been a popular show. Yes. But when we were at Camden Yards, like, talking about, like, what we're looking forward to, the way that the room erupted for Slow Horses, I just didn't know it was like that, you know, with the House of Our Listeners. What do you attribute that to? I mean, is it the return to form a bit of last season structurally? Is it just like finally cresting and hitting a critical mass of audience? Like what's happening? Is it Kyle Solner from Andor being in this season?

1:07:01Might be.

1:07:01Rob:Might be. Your guy? Could be my guy. So Karn himself. What are you most excited for about Slow Horses? I mean, it's just getting the whole gang back together. If you have not seen the trailer, we're going to talk a little bit about the trailer. But so fast forward, get out of here, whatever you want to do. Olivia Cooke back. Very important. But that's like a big swinging thing. It's going to be in the trades. Everyone's going to be talking about it. Louisa Guy has returned. Louisa Guy. Louisa Guy looking phenom. When is she not? When is she not? When has she not put that shit on, Jo? I agree with you, Rob.

1:07:35Rob:And I'm going to say this in a way that underlines how I've always supported her, which I have. I think she's using that diamond money. The ice cream diamond? Yeah, the ice cream diamond. I would love that. her hair and her clothing to step up. Speaking of where's the line for the cops? Where's the line for the spies? Sometimes you gotta smuggle out a diamond and do something for yourself. It's an instant Ben and Jerry's. You know what I mean? I think it's the least you could do. She's looking great. I'm just glad to have her back, period. The idea that all of our past favorites who are still alive are going to be back in the fold because all of them are in mortal danger, that's where I want to be with Slow Horses.

1:08:06Rob:I mean, there are a lot of, you know, crossover people like Harry Lloyd, a Game of Thrones legend is here this season. Yeah, Kyle Suller from Andor, Olivia Cooke from House of the Dragon. These are House of R people. They're also UK people. You're always dragging House of R content over here into the feed, you know? Dragging? You love House of R content. You're watching Lanterns. I am watching Lanterns. House of R is an unbelievable podcast. I'm just saying there's a separation of church and state. I'm barely allowed to talk about Lanterns. We just say freeze frame Mahoney all the time on House of R.

1:08:44Rob:That's honestly fair. You're represented over there. Appreciate it. Anything else you want to say about Slow Horses? I'm just thrilled to be back. Thrilled to be back in Slough House for us to be back on our bullshit, for Gary Oldman to return to our lives on a week-by-week basis. I think something we had worried about was because there's a different writer this season, like if the writing would feel as sharp and snarky, so tune in to find out. I would say good omens from the trailer. Yes. I enjoyed it. I agree. And I do think knowing a bit about like the book this season is based on, I think the, I'm just trying to say as much as I can without giving anything away.

1:09:21Rob:I think the form of this season is going to feel different in an exciting way. Wow. That was masterful. That was you going on a late night talk show and trying to talk around the plot of the movie. I am not playing Jean Grey. Don't worry about it. Absolutely not. X-Men casting news. Want to weigh in? I got nothing for you. Okay. that has been an episode of the Prestige TV podcast we'll be back with the finale for Furious and then pretty soon thereafter Slow Horses Series 6 and thank you to Devron Aldo of course who is dialing in from the East Coast for this podcast thank you to Kai Grady and Absentia thank you to Jacob Cornett who flipped this set in no time at all remarkable between House of R and Prestige and the time it took me to get to the other side of the couch the set was flipped thank you Rob Mahoney thank you Joe and we'll see you soon bye