‘Furious’ Season 1 Finale: Unearthed

20:12Joanna Robinson:The jar's already loose. I'm not even that bad. The lid on the jar is already loose. What I think is fascinating about that sequence when she kills him. Yeah. Is we see it twice. And we don't, you know, rewatch. Like the first time I watched it, I was like, oh, they just like maybe showed us a little bit more or different angles that we hadn't seen. But it's actually like a different performance. When you see it the first time, there is like a concern of like, Mr. Eason, can I help you? And then she goes, oh, fuck. you know like she says that that's not there in the second time we see the scene the facial expression is still kind of there it's not it's close yeah I wouldn't say that it's necessarily played as concerned but it does feel similar I just think that that I think the first time I saw it through I was like oh they showed us an objective truth and then they showed us just a little bit they widened you know the frame a bit on that objective truth second time I watched it I was like no they showed us two different versions we were like fully rationing the scene yeah exactly exactly which I think is interesting.

21:13I like that. I mean, I like the idea of like so many characters on this show. Whatever the truth is in that moment is just kind of a matter of framing, right? It's like if you keep her feet out of it, everything looks like it's above a board until she starts smothering him with her hand. If you have the cut just so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like the idea that the storytelling is as much about selective truth as all these characters are about selective truth. They are constantly revising and editorializing. And to me, that was just the absolute highlight of Hope Davis's performance and Emma Easton's role in this episode where this show and this episode do not necessarily work for me without someone like Emma Easton in it.

21:51And you and Yassi were on this from the jump, from the first pod of just like how Furious lets women be everything, including the most contradictory and messiest parts of themselves. And a woman who is like, but I'm a victim too, as you alluded to. And it's like, yes, but also, are you fucking kidding me?

22:08Joanna Robinson:That's when I would have hit her or shot her. Understandable. I thought her delivery of that was so good. Oh, yeah. I like things nice. I don't care for the people that like, I don't care for the popular, like the things that don't provide me pleasure. I don't like the flowers that don't smell good. I only like the flowers that smell good. I like things nice. And like, you weren't a kid, you were a teenager. Oh, my gosh. Like all of these rationalizations, but just sort of like the way she frames herself where she was like, I'm a victim too. But also, so there are the things she tells herself to justify all the things that she's done.

22:41Joanna Robinson:And the ways in which, I do believe that there's a story she tells herself where she is a victim too. But then there's also the moments inside this episode where it's like, get the fuck away from me or when Alice shows up and she's like, she took my gun, my father's in there and then as soon as she turns around she does this sort of like Anne Hathaway, Selina Kyle just like completely drop the frantic, you know, to like, I got things to degass, you know, I got to move. And so all the ways, And then later when she describes Isabel and she's like, I held her and I rocked her. This like self-serving, I'm an empathetic person.

23:19Joanna Robinson:Oh, and then I left the room and she was alive. But when I came back, she wasn't, you know, or you killed the wrong people. Like there's just so much mess inside of this person and inside of this performance from Hope Davis. And I just. And inside this performance from Emma Easton, as you're saying. Oh, absolutely. Whether it's the mask dropping or like the moments of calculation where she is considering like how far can I spin this truth for someone who doesn't remember what happened in the room? Like there are those hesitations that are just like intoxicating as a TV show to see this character kind of like go through this process.

23:52But I think at her core, she does think it's a kindness to clean the place before you bring the girls over to abuse and rape them.

24:01Joanna Robinson:To offer them hot apple cider. Like she sees that like consummate hostess thing as like a nice thing to do and doesn't see herself as like, you know, part of the infrastructure that makes all this possible in the first place. I love the open to where Jay doesn't remember Catherine or anything really. And I think not just because he's older and losing his memory and, you know, clearly sick, but also just like these are interchangeable transactional girls to him. And Emma doesn't have that luxury. Like there are people, there are the Jay Easton's and then there's the circle around them of like people who have to remember and mind every P and Q in detail to make this sort of like horrific course of events possible.

24:42And she just did that seemingly over and over and over enough to have a thriving greenhouse.

24:46Joanna Robinson:And what's so interesting, interesting in a really disgusting way of not being able to remember Isabel. Yeah. Someone who was like bleeding out, dying. He hit her because she wouldn't stop bleeding. you know, and then like a whole phalanx of horrible people had to get involved in the cover-up of this. And he's like, I have no memory of her. But he does remember Alice because she's in his favorite video that he likes to rewatch. You know what I mean? Like who he remembers. It's not just that he doesn't remember anyone. It's like he remembers Alice, but he doesn't remember this other thing because it's an unpleasant thing.

25:22Joanna Robinson:No real person involved sort of moment for him. Also on the Hal front, like how Hal Campbell Scott's character is brought up here. inside of Emma saying, like, you killed the wrong person. A friend of mine was texting me and he was like, he hasn't seen the finale yet, but he was like, do you think there's any possibility that Janelle Maloney, like, shows up in the finale? He's like, because he was having a real, surely you don't cast Janelle Maloney to, like, show up in one episode as the sort of... I identify with this perspective very clearly, but... He was like, I know we were duped in the leftovers of her just, like, sitting around immobile for a really long time.

25:56Joanna Robinson:So I was wondering, okay, why do you have a Janelle Maloney? And like she and Hope Davis are definitely of a type. And we've talked about this before. And so like is the intention of casting her to be like these are the kind of like waspy women who turn a blind eye to the horrific things that are happening that prop up what's happening around them. Or and, you know, this is just an extrapolation entirely. But like does Campbell Scott's character have a type? And did he and does he have a soft thought for Emma? Because Emma is of a type that his wife is of that he's just sort of like did they have a romantic thing going on?

26:29Joanna Robinson:Because when Emma's like, you killed the wrong people, you know, she's like, you killed Hal, you killed the wrong people. Like, was there something else going on there in terms of his protection of her and her tenderness towards him? Again, it's sort of irrelevant, but I just thought that was interesting in terms of the casting of his wife and Hope Davis. I don't think it's irrelevant, though. I think so many of the ways that this group of men specifically are portrayed on this show is as seeing women of a cohort, of a purpose, of a bucket, right? Yeah. Even for someone like Oliver Charles, it's like in his mind, as gross as it was in the end and through everything he had done, like almost couldn't separate being attracted to underage girls and what he valued in them to the same thing in his own daughter with her hair and this stuff.

27:12So it's like the idea of getting these wires crossed, of having these like associations where it's just like I could see to someone like how it is consciously or not as simple as like identifying or prioritizing or chasing after a certain kind of woman. And it doesn't feel like a coincidence that those women have a lot in common.

27:29Joanna Robinson:Let's talk about Catherine and Alice and this conversation they have, this very Will Graham Lecter conversation they have about— You're going to need to be more specific. The whole episode is those conversations. About, you know, Alice still saying things like, we don't get to decide what someone's punishment should be. And Catherine talking about the act of murder being, like, consuming. Yeah. And the power that comes along with it. So thinking about the Furies as a comp, which we discussed last week, and of course the show brought up as text inside of this series, they are not mythological creatures who consume their victims, though there are some versions of the story where they drink blood and it's a whole thing.

28:11Joanna Robinson:It usually is. But there is, of course, the relentless pursuit. There is an appetite. There is a voracious appetite for vengeance. That is a comp here. Or you could bring in the idea of like sin eating if you wanted to also inside of this. But what is really interesting about what the Furies do, if we want to go back to thinking about Catherine's particular brand of serial killing, is the way in which they basically drive their victims mad. They torment them. Yeah. They beguile them or, you know, yeah, they drive them to madness. And so the way in which she would capture these men, pose as sort of lovers, and we talked about this before, the sort of like weird tenderness that was part of it.

28:59Joanna Robinson:I'm so glad we kind of circled back to that. Yeah, that all kind of, and like what's interesting about the Furies is that inside of, you know, Greek storytelling, they eventually go from like these vengeful Gorgon-like snake-haired like monster women to, due to something related to the Odyssey, which we can talk about it on if you want to, but like Athena basically turns them into like symbols of justice and the court system. And so they become, their name changes to like the kindly ones from like the furies to the kindly ones. And so the fact that all of that is sort of present inside of this is sort of like the judicial system and also the sort of extra like the vigilante justice, the kind, gentle, along with the absolute mental torment, along with the physical death is, I think, an incredible way in which this is interacting with that sort of myth.

29:55Well, especially that kindness as Catherine's version of what Emma is talking about in terms of like the taking care of these people in these moments, except it's like it's transactional in a different way. Right. Even before she made this speech, those like pillow talk proximity as you die, like breathe your last dying breath moments. That was always about power. Right. That was always about like I get to be here. Who gets to touch whom? Who is dictating terms? And she lays it out very cleanly here in the sense that like not only was it not enough to feel that moment, but like she needs to feel as if she is consuming all of the power that they had and specifically the power they had over her.

30:36I mean, we talked throughout the show about like the appeals to these men of like the you get to own me kind of psychology. And for Catherine to get to own them for even a moment clearly has like a high for her. and Alice it seems like has some of that high at least gets a taste of it in a kind of way even if it's not the exact man who wronged her certainly a man who at least had and prized the video that she was on but like I love taking this show to that psychological place of not just like I'm getting revenge but I'm getting revenge in a way that allows me to consume what I have lost and consume what you had and I never did and I get to become wings or not something on the other side of this thing

31:16Joanna Robinson:And I think the way in which, you know, we've had, I think, Nora more than anyone else, but a number of moments inside of the season where there's been sort of this litany of what is done to these girls when they're trafficked. You know, decide when they get to sleep, held cattle, blah, blah. But the withholding of food, the starvation aspect was sort of reiterated several times throughout the season. and so you know the way in which katherine would do that to her victims um the way in which like making these women who were trafficked these girls who were trafficked like smaller and weaker and the way in which sort of like food as control um and and so then turned into this like consumption yeah right this appetite of like i am grown strong and powerful and full um on the death of these bad men who tried to make me small and starve me.

32:12And not only feeling that, but the fact that in the end, Catherine is like shot and bleeding out.

32:17Joanna Robinson:Yeah. And what she wants in this moment, even more, it seems, than killing Jay Easton is like, I want you, Alice, to feel this. I want you to feel what I have felt. I want you to feel this power too. I mean, it's sisterhood, you know? That's women helping women murder men. I think, and I love it. This summer, no excuses. double down when everyone else disconnects at equinox that's high performance living science-backed training real results start today at equinox.com hi ryan reynolds here for mint mobile are you looking for a beach read this summer may i suggest your big wireless bill it's got suspense mystery a slightly flat emotional arc and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time fortunately though mint story is better.

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33:19Joanna Robinson:See terms. Cozy season is ahead and you'll be spending way more time inside. Is your home ready? Don't worry. With Wayfair, you can upgrade your space without breaking the bank. Score up to 70 % off during their Labor Day clearance on furniture, area rugs, mattresses, and more. Plus, surprise flash deals you can't miss. Whether it's one room or the whole house, Wayfair has pieces for every style and budget. Shop Wayfair's Labor Day clearance now through September 7th at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. The three furies that are, you know, there are many furies, but the three main furies, main characters in these stories, Electo, Magera, Tisiphani, they have these, like specific strains of vengeance associated with them.

34:07Joanna Robinson:So Electo is the unceasing endless anger. Magera is the jealous, jealous rage. And Tisiphani is the avenger, vengeful destruction. And so in terms of like the jealous, jealous rage, that seems like Nora's camp in terms of like, you know, what Ed can get away with and how unjust the system is in general for women the women that she is trying to protect, but also for her as a woman inside of this system, you know? So there is that. But in terms of like unceasing endless anger and vengeance, the Avenger, like I'm not sure that I could like concretely put Catherine or Alice in one of those buckets or another.

34:49Joanna Robinson:And it's the whole point that they sort of are flowing between those two states. Like if Alice had just stayed on the side of like, I am the arm of the law. Of course. Right. That is sort of the Avenger, perhaps. And then endless anger, the unceasing, the relentless. That's Catherine. But the point of this is that it's all blurry now. And not only that it's all blurry, but it's all relative. And I think the anchoring from where we start at the beginning of season one tells us that those two women would represent one of those outcomes. But like over time, over three or four seasons, like, I mean, you could see it going very different.

35:27But I love the idea, too, of Alice being here after just trying to talk like two episodes ago, talk Catherine into believing in these systems of justice, like whether she herself believed it or not. That's the lie she was selling or the idea she was selling. And the greatest test she has of that is when she gets in that room with Jay Easton and she does not have a lot of time for systems.

35:47Joanna Robinson:Let's talk about what Catherine remembers and how the trauma has been manifesting for her all along. The way in which the numbness in her hands is connected not just to like a general trauma response, but like specifically Isabel sort of like squeezing her hands so tight in her pain. and then yes she has blacked out what has happened here because of her trauma and her guilt yeah of her role here but it's the method she uses to kill like she has told herself she has forgotten everything yeah but she is still killing these men in the exact same way that isabel died at her own hands and so i think that is i mean it's horrible and it's sad but it's so interesting to think about the human mind that way and just like how she's blocked it but this thing has seeped through and for some reason that she can't name, this is the right way to kill these men via, you know, the needle in the eye or the arm or wherever else.

36:40Yeah, this is where all the arrows pointed for her, whether she was conscious of it or not. I love the deployment of Catherine's memory and her getting back in the room and having kind of like the tactile association to being in this place and starting to put the pieces together. The way that this part of the story unfurls. The idea, I mean, we talked about whether this is a murder mystery kind of show or not. Right. Or like whether that villain. Yeah. I mean, I think the whodunit is like, who killed Isabel? The answer is the people who put her in that room killed Isabel.

37:09Joanna Robinson:Absolutely. A young girl who just gave birth and is bleeding profusely and this man slaps her and they get mad because she's bleeding all over the place. And won't call for a doctor, et cetera, et cetera. And like Catherine is the kindness of release, of Isabel basically begging her to like, can you end this for me? Yeah. So I like, that's the answer to the question more so than like who injected the drugs in her arm or who was clutching her in the last moments. Yeah. Of course. But I love that to my memory and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe like the first time we really see Isabel alive is in this moment of Catherine remembering her.

37:44Joanna Robinson:Outside of like photos. Like an occasional photograph. But in terms of like seeing this actor in a real time moment. Yeah, I think so. Of like holding that back from the audience to a degree where we do just get her like almost flashing into Alice's place. Like I just found it to be a really great creative decision and one that just, I mean, really knocked me out in terms of the emotion of this scene. And I think also the decision to have Emma shoot Catherine. So Catherine's hands are all covered in blood the same way they are in the flashback. So there is no distinction between, you know, Catherine's, you know, black painted nails, blood covered hand in the flashback and here.

38:20Joanna Robinson:And the way in which Alice is like giving her that compassion, giving her that empathy, while also rolling her sleeves back so she could put the handcuffs on, which is a protection in its own right, right? Because she's like, I've got the handcuffs on her. I'm going to throw my body in front of her so they can't do death by cop for this girl. You know what I mean? And it takes Danny and Alice both to protect her in that room. But you're watching her just like give her this comfort while handcuffing her at the same time. And it's just sort of, it's just an incredible image, you know? This episode is really good.

38:50I thought it was really, really sharp. I mean, clearly I am, I'm taken with the psychology of this show, of the emotion of this kind of storytelling. It can just go onward and upward and more fucked up from here. I look forward in the tradition of Hannibal. Like if there is not a majestic and ominous elk at some point, if there aren't some fucked up dreams, if there's not a murder tableau, I may ask for my money back. But I do think we're headed to some exciting places.

39:12Joanna Robinson:Are you bummed if people don't eat people in this show? Like, do you need that? Well, the consumption is metaphorical, right? We are eating the power, right? You're so right. Can I share with you something that I was coincidentally Wikipedia-ing last night. Is it Portishead? It's not. Okay. Do you want to talk about Portishead? I mean, we simply must at some point. Let's do it now. I mean, I just have to say after in a very competitive category in our local state fair here, needle drop of the season as far as I'm concerned. Needle drop of the year? I have to think back on the other shows that are really weighing in there, but just like...

39:45Joanna Robinson:Okay, I'm going to say this now even though I don't have your permission to do it. Not that I need your permission. I have been pitching us doing a needle drop of the year episode at the end of the year. And you were like a little like, I don't know. I haven't been tracking it all year. I don't know if we should do it. Here's what I'm suggesting. Press DHTV at Spotify.com. I think our listeners should start like letting us know now what are some of the best needle drops that they heard this year in television. Let's start sort of like amassing. And if we feel like we have enough information, perhaps we will do that episode.

40:14Look, conceptually, you don't need to convince me. Oh, I know.

40:16Joanna Robinson:You were just like, I would have had my spreadsheet going at the beginning of the year. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. Not just a couple months ago. I find that kind of aspect of a show to be the kind of thing that's like hardest to pull of like, oh, man, that one drop in episode three of Pluribus or whatever. It's like I can't recall that as easily as like, oh, what were my favorite performances or your favorite singular episodes? Sure. It's a little harder to pluck for me. It is. No, I just think the data is there and we can mine it. Okay. We'll mine away. I mean, I just like I like listening to you talk about the way in which music is used on screens.

40:47Joanna Robinson:This is really just me wanting more of that Rob Mahoney special. I see what you're doing and I appreciate it. Lottery will get me everywhere. All right, now it's time for me to talk more Greek mythology. Speaking of, we kind of ducked your Odyssey aside. Did you want to dig into that a little more? Well, the main story that the Furies are a feature in is this trilogy of plays by Aeschylus, which is about Agamemnon killing his daughter, Ephigenia, and Clytanestra killing Agamemnon, and then Orestes, her son, killing her. And so the Furies like chase Orestes to Athens because they're like, you killed your mom.

41:23Joanna Robinson:That's fucked up. Like king slaying. That's fucked up. We like to punish that. And Athena's like, let's have a trial. And it's like the birth of the judicial system. And guess what? A trial of Orestes' fellow men? Let them off because they were like, seems fine. And the Furies are like, we're pissed. So yeah, it all comes back to Benny Safdie, essentially. As it always does. As it always was. I was rereading Song of Achilles, Madeline Miller's story last night because I like to cry sometimes. And Achilles has a terrible son who does a bunch of terrible things. And he eventually dies. I mean, we all do.

41:57Joanna Robinson:There is this phrase that is born out of how he dies, which is the punishment of Neoptolemus. And it's not as catchy as the judgment of Paris or Achilles' heel or Trojan horse or all the other things we got out of the Trojan War. But Neoptolemus, or Paris as he's sometimes called, basically he's killed in the same manner. He kills King Priam, King of Troy, on an altar in this horrible way. And then he is later killed on an altar for his various crimes. Hosted by his own petard. Killed in the same manner. So I was just thinking about Catherine injecting all of these men and how that is a punishment of Neoptolemus, I guess, if you want to think of it that way.

42:35I do, and I dig it.

42:35Joanna Robinson:Let's talk about the Connecticut cops. This episode needed some humor. It really did. Here come the Keystone cops, the Connecticut cops. How did you feel about this? I mean, we needed it. Look, I just think if the A block of this episode is going to be the sexual predation and murder of young girls, we need a congregation of cops outside trying to get in and being caught in the paperwork snag of needing to show each other their IDs. And in fact, I would say Emma Easton barging out in one of her performances about the murderer being inside only to find roughly 30 to 40 officers just like handing each other IDs has to be the laugh of the episode for me.

43:10Joanna Robinson:The laugh of the episode to me is when the Connecticut cops, after Nora and Danny have already been like sort of bumping up against this. And then Ed George and the rest of them get there. And they're like, who are you? And Frank Choi just goes, Frank Choi. He's right. Frank Choi. I'm Frank Choi, obviously. But yeah, back of a popsicle stick. Very good. You know, white golf cart. And the way that he's like, well, you take me in your white golf cart. And the Connecticut cops like faster than you think. Like just all really, really good shit from this. And then Nora's vulgarity here and elsewhere, I just want to celebrate as one of her transgressional aspects of her character.

43:52Joanna Robinson:When Ed's like, you think, like stop acting all high and mighty. And she's like, I am. I am higher and mightier than you. And I'm pissing down on you. And later in the elevator when she sees him and she's like, should we have fucked? What do you think? And he's like, Jesus. You know, he's like, you're offending my delicate sensibilities with your vulgarity. And it's just something I love about Nora. I mean, my only regret about Nora in this episode, one, that there isn't more of her period. And two, if this is kind of the last we see of Dany in his capacity, there's fewer and fewer reasons for him and Nora to be in the same room.

44:23And every scene with them was a gift. Them getting their drive time together. There's just like a knowing, ball bustery nature between them that I really, really enjoy. But seeing her finally get a moment at George after he gets to gloat through most of this episode, thinking that he's gotten off scot-free, thinking that -

44:41Joanna Robinson:But is she once again doing the same thing when she's like, hey, I got that thumb drive. You know what I mean? But it's who she is, you know? Hubris. You're so mad at the scorpion. The scorpion is telling you what he's up to, you know? It is my nature. Look, I love Nora for that reason. I love her as a character because she wants to and gets to and sometimes regrets gloating. Yeah. And sometimes owns it. sometimes is late coming around to, but like that cycle of, she sees through everyone in the show more than any other character. Correct. When Alice starts talking very empathetically about Catherine, she's like, something has shifted here in the dynamic.

45:16When Danny is attempting to lie to her, she's like, come on, like I barely even know you and I know you're full of shit. Worst liar ever, yeah. So it's like she is perceptive as a detective, as a cop, as an investigator in a way that almost no one else is, but is like so, like so calcified in her frustrations of being stuck and like stymied by the Ed Georges of the world. That it's like, when that opportunity comes, she's got a monologue. And like, I want the monologue.

45:42Joanna Robinson:The smirk he gives her as he's like walking away because Jay's dead and like, you can't pin this on me. Makes you want to kick him to the curb all over again. Really? Those perfect teeth. Follow-up question. Is this the best elevator show since Mad Men? Ooh. It might be a crowded field. Press ccv at Spotify.com if I'm forgetting something great. But I mean, Grey's Anatomy also has some iconic elevator stuff. But I just think all of the Nora in the elevator scenes have been. That's her office. No notes for me. Is it time for me to talk about Greek mythology again? Isn't that what this whole podcast has been?

46:17Joanna Robinson:I think so. This comes from our listener, Caroline. Okay. And this is about Alice as Medusa. So like the thing about the Furies is that they're often described similarly to the Gorgons in terms of like the snake-like hair. But, like, Alice's curls as invoking Medusa, the Gorgons. And they mentioned Medusa in the first episode of the season. Nora talked about the fact that, like, Medusa was raped by Poseidon, etc. And this email predates this episode. Yes. But by the end of it, I mean, we get Alice in her full curling, resplendent glory. Yes. After she has, you know, done some light to medium murder.

46:51Joanna Robinson:This is what I love about, like, I love this email from Caroline. she says Alice has the crazy snake like hair and she was raped and abused by Easton not by Easton but and Marshall who is godlike with his power and money much like the god Poseidon who raped Medusa and who was then cast out by Athena so the way in which like Athena in the story of Medusa like the women are the ones who do the casting out even though it is the men enacting the crimes etc etc not trying to get too deep in the weeds on the allegory but you can continuously see how the women are punished for the crimes of men how Alice is cast out when it's made public that Marshall abused her, how Nora's alcoholism is treated with an opportunity for blackmail rather than true empathy and treatment, how Marshall blames Alice for his falling off the wagon, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

47:34Joanna Robinson:And then she says, sadly, I think this means Alice's end may not be good. She might die literally, or there might be a metaphorical death that she can't come back from. Her career, her reputation, her attempt to recover from her trauma, her credibility, her idea of a justice, and her role as a great cop. But her, quote, death and her eyes may take down Easton. And already we're seeing how anyone who truly sees Alice, like seeing the face of Medusa for who she truly is, dies. There seems to be death in Danny when he sees the child porn of Alice. The rejection of all the other cops when the truth of Marshall's abuse is revealed.

48:08Joanna Robinson:What's so fascinating is how when Catherine sees her, there's a different response. A new dynamic emerges. So thinking about that, Alice as Gorgon, like Medusa who can turn a man to stone if he looks upon her face. So like her staring down at Jay Easton as she kills him and this idea of like him looking in the face of Medusa and dying. And then her staring into the camera at all of the names on that database with, as you said, her curls in for full resplendent mode. how it's like Catherine direct address to the camera smiling and Alice direct address to the camera smiling and just sort of like that idea of like look on my face.

48:47Joanna Robinson:Yes. The last thing you're going to see. I loved it. The potential for that kind of examination. I love that idea, that concept. I think there's clearly some ways after the finale in which it sort of applies and sort of doesn't and there's some gray areas around some of those characters but like as a concept, it's clearly something the show is interested in. And it's not a mistake with vis-a-vis the curls. The fact that like Alice shows up to work with her like hair pulled back kind of thing and only not just in a literal letting your hair down kind of way, but like a disarmament of like, this is my truest self and who gets to, who does get to look upon it and who gets to feel safe in doing it.

49:24Like these things are not accidents.

49:26Joanna Robinson:Do you think it's an accident that she's wearing the Chris Evans Knives Out murder sweater when she goes to visit Catherine in jail at the end? Is cable knit just the choice of murderers everywhere? Or creamy cable did, I think. Specifically. It is a little killer coded. Yeah. But you know what? The scene's so good, I don't even mind it. Oh, I mean, it looks great. It looks great. In terms of the aftermath, Marshall a hero. You called this out very specifically. I just had a feeling. Marshall in the wheelchair, but, you know, with the medal ceremony, right? I am very glad that this show never veered into, did Alice shoot Marshall?

49:59Like, no one knows what happened.

50:00Joanna Robinson:Right, we had a lot of people wondering if that was going to be the case. Understandable concern. I had the same flicker of a thought. And as soon as like, it's in like the first five or 10 minutes of the following episode where Frank Choi's like, no, we have the CCTV. We can't tell what they're saying, but like you can see that he's visibly drunk and just showed up. Yeah, like it's, you don't have to sell that, but in a way it makes it even more tragic that everyone knows all that and he's still up here getting his fucking medal. Just in case you weren't sure how this show feels about systems and accountability.

50:30Like let me pin and sash this for you.

50:32Joanna Robinson:I think the, you know, we had this whole back and forth last week about the idea of normal. I'm going to say healthy. I think the healthiest move that anyone in this episode makes is Danny quitting being a cop. Seems like a great call. Putting that cop head on backwards as he walks down the hall. Real hot shit. I did it for you. Real hot shit from Scoot McNary, honestly. So he gets to go to the Jersey Shore, which is sort of positioned as like heaven. Yeah. You know? It looks different than anything we've seen on the show. I thought of it as like, I mean, kind of heaven, but like sending Danny to the farm upstate a little bit.

51:05Like he's put out to pasture. Here's my fear. Scooby Neary is so good on this show. Is this his transition from either being on the show to off of it or on the show to like guest star recurring? Yeah.

51:19Joanna Robinson:How many scenes can the boyfriend have? I don't know. The boyfriend who's off the case have. I don't know. I hope he is a series regular. I hope Ed George, who is not like officially got. Oh no. is a series regular next season. Frank Choi, my guy Frank Choi. Critical part of the team now. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe Alice's closest confidant. He can't tell babies apart. But you know what? In a jam, he's not as bad as these other guys. The bars and hell. So the heavenly depiction of the Jersey Shore, and Rob formally apologizes, to the underworld hell of the office, the basement, the room that Alice goes into.

51:56Joanna Robinson:What do you want to say about sort of that sequence of her going in, Nora giving her the code and her going into the room. Yeah, I mean, I think for one, once she goes into that room and starts pulling up the video, it was like eerie how similar the room felt in its like gray, sterile drabness to Jay Easton's room. And there's like, I mean, there is to the hell part of this, like such a thin line between hell and this place, right? Like this is where you view the horrible things that have happened to people. It may not be where they take place, but like as this dark pit of despair, I loved that mirror.

52:30And whether intentional or not, it just kind of functioned that way for me. I mean, the scene is incredibly affecting. And anytime you're getting an actor like Emmy Rossum who gets a chance to just show you what they are feeling and seeing, and she does that all throughout this episode in many ways, sometimes showing triumph and the high of the murder, sometimes in this case showing the anguish of having to view this stuff again, and just the complete breakdown. And then the resolve of facing the unimaginable and then coming out the other side with like, I want this submitted into the system. Like, this has a purpose for me.

53:04And I have to say, I think Nora is like absolutely right about this part of it. Nora has her failings, like clearly is willing to walk and step on some lines. But the idea that like, if you are going to do this work, you have to look, you have to start going through it. I think she's spot on. And us getting to thankfully not see that, but participate in it through Alice, I just found to be like an incredible bit of TV.

53:25Joanna Robinson:I thought the way this was shot was perfect in terms of, I think about all the time when you consider how do you show the impact of sexual violence without showing it in a way that feels like lurid or exploitative or titillating or something like that. And, you know, the example of good intentions gone wrong that I like to think about, I don't like to think about, I think about all the time is the sexual assault of Sansa Stark on her wedding night and the way in which the well-intentioned guys who made that show were like, we think it'll be too dramatic to show that. So we will put the camera on Theon Greyjoy who's also in the room so that you can experience his horror, like horror through him so that we're not showing you this because it's too hard to look at this.

54:11Joanna Robinson:But then unfortunately what that just does is make this about the man's pain who's in the room and not about Sansa. So to put the camera tight in, tight, tight, tight in on Emmy Rossum's eyes and not only that so we see what Alice is feeling as she you know and so Emmy gives this incredible eyebrow performance you know as Alice is watching this we can see the flicker of the image in her eyeball without having to like decipher what is going on but just the presence of it there I thought was just like threading the needle perfectly in a really tough kind of storytelling. Completely. And taking us from that moment to then telling us what actually happened with Jay Easton.

55:03Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Why Alice actually wants to be in this room. Again, this is me coming back to Ed George. Like, what kind of person wants to be down here? Yeah. It's the person who wants retribution, who wants to follow the 500 ,000 downloads of her video that are in the system to say nothing of the ones that aren't. And she has like a nice, tidy little list to start with. A little list with usernames. Yep. you know, goes back several years. What a perfect open door for a second season. Just like a really clever way to end the season, which is like a perfect setup. Again, absolutely invigorating as a TV watcher.

55:37I feel like we've just been covering a lot of shows where, to be fair, I think it's really hard to tell a cohesive singular story that when it ends, feels like it's just getting started. Like specifically a season one into season two transition, I think can be a really hard jump for a lot of shows. I feel like we've seen a lot recently where it's like they kind of forget one or the other. You know, we watch like Alien Earth and it's like, so I guess we're just starting now? Like all of this was sort of preamble to the actual story you wanted to tell. And to get what feels like a really nice bookend on the like Alice and Catherine cat and mouse.

56:10But Catherine is not dead. Yeah, she's on the board. She's potentially like set up in her Hannibal-like role. Alice gets to go.

56:17Joanna Robinson:Alden will hopefully, I mean, because I'm assuming she married Alden. I would hope. Alden who has a lot of money will make sure she has is as comfortable as she can be the commissary will be well stocked for her the ramen packets she will be swimming in it in a different way but like the fact that she can still be on the show and it doesn't feel like a contrivance it doesn't feel like they bent over backwards and maybe she won't maybe the answer is she's barely in the show going forward I think she will be a very like Boyd Crowder role for her They dug coal together? They dug coal together. They killed men together.

56:51Joanna Robinson:So we are setting up potentially a second and who knows how many seasons. I mean, this is essentially Dexter, right? We've got, and I'm not mad about it, but we've got a serial killer who is not killing other serial killers, but killing bad actors who is on the force and so able to use the system to help them, you know, in their murdering of bad people. So we get, once again, the titillation of a murder show while also feeling like justified in the vengeance that Dexter is taking as he goes through. That show ended really well, right? Historically. Everyone loves that. I mean, as long as everyone is in some kind of flannel by the end, I think everybody's happy.

57:33But I mean, one of the appeals of having those kinds of characters, I think echoes what this whole season has been interrogating in terms of like, what are the limits of traditional law enforcement, of traditional prosecution? Like, what can the system actually do for you? And the idea that someone like Alice would know at this point pretty intimately, and certainly Nora would know, where the lines are, what it can't do, where the gray areas are. Like, that gives a murder reactor, someone who's looking for a vigilante kind of vengeance, a lot of area to explain. Like, they know exactly where the lines are in order to kind of walk around them and through them in really interesting ways.

58:06Joanna Robinson:So Alice in this Dexter-like role, Catherine in this Hannibal Lecter-type role, Nora, how much is she willing to turn a blind eye to what Alice is doing here? Because as you pointed out, nothing gets past Nora, right? So how much will Nora know? When will she know it? And what will she do with that information? How much will Danny Kelly know? And what will he do with that information? Well, he's still reading up on the rules to Parcheesi. I've never played Parcheesi. Nor have I. No. It doesn't seem, for one, I don't think anybody's playing Parcheesi anymore. And certainly, you and I have seen a lot of TV.

58:39I feel like I've seen a lot in terms of how stuff is portrayed on screen. Never once have I seen the rules of Parcheesi as foreplay. That's a new one for me. Okay. And clearly it must be something for somebody out there.

58:51Joanna Robinson:You're more of a backgammon as foreplay kind of guy. I feel like you want something a little punchier. You know, like these dice-based games. There's a lot of contingencies. My guy Frank Choi is here. Ed remains a thread. The thumb drive is in play. However it's in play. And surely Yara will be back from maternity leave at some point. And that is our season two of Fury's, which I'm really excited for. On the thumb drive front. And Marshall. Yes. And Marshall, I mean, hopefully he's gone from the show, but we could only be so lucky. Doubt it. Yeah. Highly doubt it. As far as the thumb drive, the fact that Alice's video is in the system.

59:25Right. I mean, would suggest that everything on that thumb drive is in the system, right?

59:28Joanna Robinson:Maybe. But maybe it already existed in the system. and Nora was just like, I've found it. I mean, if it was in that many other files, then maybe, I mean, it does kind of put an interesting spin on the whole dilemma that Alice and Danny were going through in the first place. I was like, I don't want to submit this because you're on this tape. And it's like, it turns out 499 ,999 other dudes. Also horrible screen names. I've already downloaded it. What's interesting to me, and I'm not a tech person or have I ever been involved in watching these kinds of disgusting videos, but like, how does that, like that file is named that file for everyone.

1:00:08Joanna Robinson:I guess we're not renaming these horrible files as they get circulated or whatever, because it's like Alice, like with some numerals and stuff like that. And she's found in all these places. So yeah, like I guess if you're in pursuit of child porn, you're not stopping to rename your files when you watch it. I don't know. I just thought that was, I don't know how that works. Well, I would think the naming of the file. Genuinely so. I would think the naming of the file is probably its own sort of forensic information, like how it is titled. Oh, is it like the metadata somehow or something like that?

1:00:38Well, not only that, but it would give you a sense of like, is this an archive? Like if there's a number attached, does that mean there's 77 other files? It's like, it tells you information by its existence. That said, if it were submitted into an FBI database, I would think it would be retitled. You would keep that information somewhere and it'd be retitled exhibit 926, you know? not

1:00:58Joanna Robinson:I mean especially like in terms of a person's name being attached to it when there are all these rules now about sort of like people's names being involved in cases or not anyway I don't want to end on that note anything else you want to end on do you want to talk about Portishead again can I make it sadder somehow okay this is a small moment in like a really good finale a very character rich episode but I don't want to breeze by it but like the mass grave on Heart Island where, you know, one of the reasons that Alice ostensibly shows up to talk to Catherine is to tell her that they have dug up Isabel's body.

1:01:35They've exhumed it. They're going to give her a proper grave, proper marking, proper recognition. Just seeing the, like, crane shot below the surface of how, like, all of these people, presumably a lot of them women who are in similar circumstances to Isabel, have been, like, so divorced from their names and their humanity. And it's just, like, how many of these coffins can we pack into this mass grave? It was just like...

1:01:59Joanna Robinson:And Nora had said that in terms of how many bodies deep these graves were. We knew what it was, but seeing the whole dug up as they are trying to pull up the right coffin, I mean, it's just really harrowing stuff in a show that for as funny as it can be, also never lets you forget what's actually at stake here. I would apologize for talking about Song of Achilles again, but I won't because that book is so good. But the end of that book is all about putting a name on someone's grave so that they can like find rest in the afterlife. So this idea of Isabella as like, you know, a spirit who can't rest because their name has not been put on their grave is like something I was thinking a lot about.

1:02:39And what we can do for the people who have died under any sorts of circumstances like this.

1:02:44Joanna Robinson:And to give Elena a place to go. The fact that Elena's there, Elena gives Nora a hug, like all of that. And what will this mean for Elena's future? Elena is someone, you know, we've been quite worried about in terms, you know, Catherine certainly has been quite worried about. That's true. this whole season. And she seems to have reminded Nora what a hug is. Yeah. This feels like maybe the first time that Nora has had a hug in a while. Correct. She seems to remember the broad beats, but maybe the particulars are a little lost in time. Great coat on Nora, by the way. I don't know how it will pair with the tropical shirt, but...

1:03:12I think everything pairs with the tropical shirt if you are Nora.

1:03:18Joanna Robinson:Did you know that at San Diego Comic-Con, like, a lot of people were staying at the Jimmy Buffett Margaritaville hotel? Yeah, not me, Alas, Wait, there's a Margaritaville hotel? Don't you want to stay there? It's like parrot-themed wallpaper. Do I? I mean, I'm not opposed to it. Do you think they just pipe in Jimmy Buffett 24-7 into the room? That's implied. Do you think there's like a lost acre of salt on every single surface? That feels like it would make someone go insane. Only cheeseburgers in paradise is on the menu? Oh. Wow. How much do I know about Jimmy Buffett? That's about it. Okay. You're already squarely on the record about being pro-Jimmy Buffett and anti-Randy Newman.

1:03:50Correct. Correct. So, I mean, your credibility in this issue is - AKA the right side of history. Okay. It disgusts me.

1:03:56Joanna Robinson:That's it for Furious. I don't think, do we have a plan for next week? We don't. We're going to podcast about something. We'll figure something out and then it's Slow Horses. Joanne and Rob will return. Into Avengers Doomsday. And so we only just have one gap week before Slow Horses picks up. Yes, I think so. So mercifully, we barely have to program anything for ourselves. But we'll figure out something to do. Kai, I'm sure, has a ton of ideas for us. Maybe Deb does as well. And then we'll be back with potential James Bond candidate. One in six chance. or do you think it's better than that? Do you want to, who, like, of those guys who are on the short list for James Bond, who's your top pick?

1:04:31I think it's, I think I want one of the Jacks.

1:04:33Joanna Robinson:Yeah. But here's the thing, I probably know the least about Jack Barton. Yeah, me too. Which in a way makes me want him more. I agree. Like, I had only seen Daniel Craig in Layer Cake before he became Bond and I think that unknowability was part of the appeal at that time versus these other guys. It's like, if you're playing a Beatle with a bad wig, you're not allowed to be James Bond too. Okay, so Harris Dickinson and Paul Meskel out. Callum Turner, did you see the One Night Only movie? I'm behind, unfortunately. It came out while I was on vacation. You were like the number one enthusiast for that movie in terms of people I knew personally.

1:05:04Joanna Robinson:I love it all in one night. I love a walk and talk. Seems like people didn't really like that movie. I continue to make my case that Callum Turner is really only famous because of Dua Lipa. I don't think he has the charisma to do this. But he has the charisma. And Elordi, on the record, is out on Elordi as Bond. Absolutely not. You said on Height Alone he's disqualified. Absolutely disqualified. Look, we all have to acknowledge our limitations. And as from one tall guy to another, you can't be James Bond. Like you're just going to stick out of every crowd. You're going to be towering over every casino table.

1:05:34That man should be playing like small forward for the Charlotte Hornets. Like he can't be James Bond. But on the Callum front, I would respectfully push back. He's not someone who's like a P.L. I intimately understand, but I've seen his power over other people. And I would venture to say, if you have the charisma to end up with Dua Lipa, you probably have the charisma to play James Bond.

1:05:53Joanna Robinson:You can have real life charisma and it not translate on screen. And so do I believe he has to have something in order to land Dua Lipa? Yes. Have I seen it manifest in any of the things I've seen him in? Have you seen him in anything? I don't think I actually have. Yeah, I have. And I'm just sort of like, there's no there there. It's like, no, thank you. There's nothing there. There's nothing going on between those big years? No, exactly. I support. I support those years. Jack Barton, I have seen in Heartstopper and Rogue Heroes. not like super, super familiar, but like on that layer cake sort of level.

1:06:24Joanna Robinson:So yeah, one of the jacks. Wouldn't it be weird if you get to play River Cartwright and James Bond? It'd be really exciting. I mean, and especially since search is on the record about wanting to be a Bond villain. We deserve this. This is all we deserve. Bring it to us immediately. Do we get to have that and Gretel Lee and Rebecca Ferguson in a rom-com? That feels like being too greedy. Okay. But the world took Dolly Parton and Tim Curry for us. So is this just not... In the same week. Is this not just balancing the scales of justice? I like that thinking. Okay. And that's the last I have to say about Furious.

1:06:58Joanna Robinson:Press e-tv at Spotify.com if you have Bond thoughts, if you have Needle Drop thoughts from TV of the Year. If you have thoughts about what we should do on the pod next week, I'm open to that. For sure. And your pre-season Slow Horses thoughts. Thank you to Jacob Cornett, Kai Grady, Dev Rinaldo. I saw Jamie back there. A lot of people here in the building today. Thank you to you, Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Joe. And thank you to murderesses of all kinds. Alleged or not, we love them. All right, bye.

1:07:48Joanna Robinson:real results. Start today at equinox.com.