‘Heated Rivalry’ Episode 5: Russian Phone Calls | Prestige TV | The Ringer

22:46Two weeks ago, they had like 80 ,000 followers like when I started following them. So rapid ascent on Instagram, which is an N indicator, but not the only indicator certainly of star potential. You know, they're on magazine covers, they're everywhere. And Connor's story just felt to me like, you know, you and Richard talked about this, the kind of like, okay, casting directors are going to be paying attention. You could just feel instantly like this is, what's he being cast in like right now? You know, and I think some of it is that he is on screen to me just like a stick of dynamite. It's explosive and powerful and very compelling.

23:19And I think that his performance, I mean, obviously there are the very like, oh my God, you had to learn Russian in a week aspects of it. I loved the little wink inside of episode five. It's like, yeah, you could learn it in a week. Like, no accent, you know? No accent, yeah. Really great. You know, learning to play hockey and skate to the extent that like the actual hockey is a huge part of the show, which it really isn't, but hockey culture obviously is. Right. And the way that he is speaking Russian, like to my ear, which is of course not an expert ear, what appears to be flawlessly, I don't know.

23:52It seems to me amazing.

23:54Joanna Robinson:I've gotten like a little feedback from people who speak Russian who are like native Russian or Ukrainian. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure. And they're like, it sounds a little like, you know, rusky to them. But it reminded me of, I don't know if I've ever told you this story. I used to live with Ukrainian and I would like try to match his accent. And like one time I called him and I was just like doing the accent on the phone. And I was like, how do I sound? He says, you sound perfect from wherever you are from. And like, it's just sort of like, it's consistent. It sounds great because it's just super consistent.

24:28Joanna Robinson:And so I just like, we can buy in really easily. Yeah. Because it just sounds like, it sounds, yeah, consistent. I wasn't like surprised to see some interviews, you know, in my Instagram algorithm where people are like, wait, you're not Russian as like an opening question. And so I think that that performance kind of like bowls you over right away and has become, in a way that I've really enjoyed, subtler and quieter over the episodes as Ilya, the character who is more like outwardly, at least with Svetlana or Shane, this is who I am. It's okay to like what you like. It's okay to want what you want.

25:02But I can, as we hear him, you know, just explicitly say in this episode, like, I can't go home to Russia ever again if I say this out loud. And then Hudson's performance is the one that has really grown on me across the season. And I'm just like so moved watching him in the last couple episodes. And I think that the, all of the things that you said and just in general, like the fact, it feels to me right for all of the reasons, all of the aspects of Shane's life and his circumstances and like the things that he is navigating and the fact that he is, his journey is like a sexual journey and a journey of discovery and identity, but it is also, it's like a journey of understanding himself, right?

25:43And so like the quieter, more reserved, shy aspects of it, I think the way that the show has made text of that inside of their relationship where Ilya like, you know, ribs him for being boring and stuff like that is really expert and very sweet. And I just think they're both great. They're great.

26:04Joanna Robinson:It reminds me a bit of like our discussion of Heartstopper, where you've got one character who has come out and knows he's queer and one character who's like discovering his sexuality. And so like you have someone who's on a whole different journey. And so Shane coming to terms with his own sexuality is part of this whole thing. It is It feeds very much into the romance novel trope of he fell first, he fell harder. That sort of back and forth I think is really interesting. Last thing I'll say, and I noticed it particularly in this episode, I was already making this sort of Hudson Williams, young Keanu comp in my head, these Canadian hunks or whatever.

26:42Joanna Robinson:But I really do think that they're styling Conner's story as Ilya a bit like Patrick Swayze in Dirty Dancing. He's wearing a lot of black tank tops in this episode, which is like classic Swayze dirty dancing to me. Which then, of course, made me think about Keanu and Swayze in Point Break, which is, I think, one of the queerest movies that's ever existed. So I'm here for it. I'm here for all of it. One last thing I want to say before we get sort of like in the specifics of this episode a bit more than I have, you know, tank talks to the side. is just on the business front, just talking really briefly, we got a really interesting email from our listener in Montana about what's called CanCon or Canadian content.

27:23Joanna Robinson:And Montana was just basically outlining the way in which, because of the various rules of Canadian television in terms of funding you can get, tax breaks you can get, there's rules about how Canadian content has to be produced. And it has to do with 50 % of what's aired in Canada has to be Canadian grown, homegrown. And also in terms of like sending Canadian content into the world, the impulse has been to be quite conservative. Like we don't get too flashy. We don't get too experimental with our content. We farm out fairly staid, I don't know, Ella Montgomery based content or whatever the case may be.

28:06And she said, you've seen a bit of growth in that area with like Schitt's Creek or

28:10Joanna Robinson:Letter Kenny and Shorzy, a show that I know that you really love. Love. Love Shorzy. But she's like, this is just like a huge leap in bound to have Heat of Rivalry, which is streaming here on HBO Max. So I'm sure plenty people in the U.S. just think it's an HBO show and that's fine. That happens all the time. Who really cares? But it is a huge deal, I think, for Canadian television. And there was a really interesting interview with some of the executives behind this. I usually leave the TV business talk to Chris and Andy, they know much more than I do. But I thought this piece in The Inkler, an interview with Leslie Goldberg from the guys who sort of went all in on this show and took a huge risk and how the risk has paid off for them was really, really fascinating.

28:53Joanna Robinson:So I recommend that as like, if you're interested in sort of, what does this mean for the television landscape as a whole? You know, no pun, sorry, no pun intended phrasing, but like, I think that like, sorry, I just said it and then I heard it. But like, I think the summer I turned pretty and heated rivalry popping the way they did means, of course, we will get more romance television. We will get more sex-friendly television. That's all great. What does it mean for Canadian exports? I'm excited to see. I think it's really interesting. So last but not least, Montana did recommend. I haven't watched it, but Montana said if you want more great CanCon to watch, I definitely recommend North of North on Netflix, too.

29:33Joanna Robinson:I haven't watched it, but it sounds like something I might want to check out over the holiday break. if it's got the stamp of approval. Anything else you want to say in a big picture sense before we get into specifics of episode five?

29:47You know, I guess just on the time jump front, I'm like so intrigued to know that a season two is coming because we start in 2008 and then this episode, we're up to 2017. So we've watched these two characters in five episodes of TV, really four, because, you know, they're briefly in. Right. The Scott Kipp episode in episode three, but that episode was an orient around Ilya and Shane. And so we've spent a decade with them and we have one to go. And the fact that there's a season two, because knowing there are multiple books that are on multiple characters, I was like, I wonder... Like how central will they be in a second season?

30:22How central will they be in season two? But like they're so central to the fan experience and relationship to the show. It seems like everyone is just saying, we're doing a season two and Shane and Ilya's story will continue and that there are ongoing Shane Ilya plots in the book. So that, I don't know, like, does season two take place over six months or does season two continue to move us through time? I have no idea because I haven't wanted to spoil it for myself. But I found it a little disorienting in the first episode to so rapidly move across the calendar. But now toward the end of the season, it has given us this, like, you know, sense and feeling that we've lived these years with them and have a deeper understanding of what they've meant to each other over time and what else has happened around them in their lives, even though like five hours of TV is just ultimately not that much.

31:11So it's been interesting.

31:12Joanna Robinson:To watch them go from like, I mean, they're essentially teenage, right? They're like 19, 20, maybe in the first episode. To watch them go from like rookie of the year, whatever the case may be, to captains of their respective teams. Yeah. And to think about what it means to try to engage in this, both in time, in the history of like what it means to be out and queer in the US, Canada, Russia, et cetera, over the span of a decade, that particular decade. And then in your life as a teenager versus like someone who's pushing 30 at that point. Right. This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app.

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33:15Joanna Robinson:We're going to get into the episode now more specifically and just say, first and foremost, I can't believe we've gone this long without talking about our babe from our Yellow Jackets coverage, Sophie Nelise. Unbelievable. Who has a killer scene in this episode as Rose, but was, of course, very, very integral to episode four. I texted you before you watched episode four and I was like, I was like, so, Sean is here. Sean from Yellow Jackets is here. Here she comes. I loved this dinner scene. It was so beautiful. The way that both Rose and Svetlana inside of this episode, and the way that all people, like, you know, Hudson's BFF on his team or whatever the case may be, is just sort of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, Jane and Lily, like, we get it.

34:01Joanna Robinson:I don't care. Go do your thing. But I just, I loved this scene. I thought it was really, really beautiful. And I loved the parting of the ways, too. And this genuine just sort of like, let's be friends. No, really, let's be friends. Yeah, and then they're on the phone with each other at the end of the episode. And you have no reason to believe that that won't be the case moving forward. I also thought this was great. Always wonderful to see young Shauna. uh you know uh it's it takes me to the wilderness right away of course and it's not the only yellow jackets cast member here in our heated rivalry correct correct that's that's been that's been quite fun um one of the things that i've loved about this season so far and the shane rose storyline is one of the ways in which we got this is just how Ilya and Shane observe each other's lives from afar, you know?

34:57So if... Via, like, social media or... Yeah, like, well, when one of them is in... Didn't, you know, make it as far, like, they're not fighting for the cup that year. The other one is, and they're watching on the screen. Or, yes, a news conference, whatever the case may be. And they're, like, so happy for each other. And everyone else is like, fuck Rosen up, you know? And, yeah, the way that Ilya, who can say all he wants, including in this episode, like it's simple for me like you know we meet up we fuck and then of course later in the episode can't wait to talk about that scene it's that's not where he is with it of course the doom scrolling of every paparazzi shot of shane and rose and comments about how like oh my god this is our favorite couple and the relationship we're most obsessed with all of it that's just really i think smart as a technique to allow us to glimpse something that maybe they're not ready to totally fully admit to themselves.

35:50Yeah. The dinner scene with Shane and Rose, I agree. I just thought was like really lovely. And both of their performances were wonderful. I think that was one of the best scenes that Hudson has delivered inside of the season. I mean, across those few minutes, the reluctance and shame, and I think actually fear, like somebody is about to ask me the thing that I've been afraid they're going to ask me. And then the palpable weight lifted that he has finally been able to say this to one person. And it wasn't just okay, it was wonderful. It was just so beautifully and artfully captured. And then the hand over his mouth and the little giggle with the thing is, I kind of prefer being the whole rather than the peg.

36:40Just such a great scene. I really loved it. And I thought that from an editing and filmmaking perspective, the stretch where Rose says, you know, can I ask if you've ever been with another guy? And he just, quick little nod. And then, have you ever told anyone that before? Head shake, you know, was it different? Yeah, of course, was it better? And between each of those questions, we're flashing to different moments that Shane and Ilya have shared. And some of them are like, you know, was it different, was it better? They're tearing each other's clothes off. Like they can't wait to put each other in bed and get in bed with each other.

37:15but like the one of the moments that we saw was just that quiet, tender little kiss in the stairwell. Which is my favorite,

37:20Joanna Robinson:like one of my favorite moments of the season so far. And so that's the totality of their, their love story with each other and little glimpses. I just thought that was great. I will say, so something that, you know, Jacob Tierney has said in interviews is that he's like, this is, this is expensive for a Canadian production, but dirt cheap for an American production. So like, you know, he's like made this with very little money. I think this is a quite beautiful show. It looks great. Like as Richard and I talked about, and as I know, we're both familiar with Jacob Turney's work with Letterkenny and Shorzy.

37:53Joanna Robinson:You know, and I knew that he was talented. He performs on both of those shows, writer, director, et cetera. I knew that he was talented. I didn't know that he had this level of sort of artistic eye necessarily in him because that's not really what Letterkenny and Shorzy necessarily are about, though there's some moments of Leonard Kenny that I would, I would give that to, but like, I just, I'm so excited to, you know, obviously he's going to do a season two, but like, what else is Jacob Chirney going to get to do after this? That really excites me too. So, um, yeah, I thought that the way that scene is lit in this like golden glow and the hush intimacy of like a nearly empty restaurant.

38:33Joanna Robinson:And even though they're like two of the most famous people in the world, they're in this sort of like beautiful private bubble. Um, so often overexposed, but in this like, actually, let's be honest, let's have this conversation moment. A little cocoon of safety. And I thought even then just the transition to like walking outside to the street corner, but continuing their conversation was a good way of indicating. And now we take the next step. And then the next step, you know, I thought, yeah, all of that was just, it's subtle, but it's very effective inside of the episode. Here's what I can say with certainty about hockey.

39:08Joanna Robinson:Uh-huh. I dated a hockey player for several years in college. Great person. Wonderful. The best. Hands out of a hockey glove is some of the worst smelling things you've ever experienced in your entire life. I have no comp for it. And I understand that all sports equipment gets rank. There's something extra level about a hockey glove. And so that has just been on my mind throughout this, just like thinking about the hockey hands. So that's my level of expertise. I can bring to this. Mallory, you're more of a, in the sports world than I am, obviously. I know you went to a, a Shorzy hockey event this past week.

39:52Joanna Robinson:I saw our beloved Sudsbury Blueberry Bulldogs in person and it was electric. So like, A, this is something that, you know, I remember Bill talking to us about how the soccer looked on Yellow Jackets. How does the hockey look for you on this show. And then I also just kind of wanted to talk to you. I talked to Richard about this a little bit, but like we're in 2017, like where are we in terms of like queerness and pro sports? Like where, where is the level of acceptance either in hockey or just like across, um, you know, the pro sports world at this point? Um, in terms of the, how, how are the hockey scenes, like how is the actual hockey.

40:31So let me, let me say this. My, I'm a sports obsessive. Hockey is the major pro sport I spend the least time with. I am, I'm a married to a passionate Colorado Avalanche fan. The actually Colorado got a shout out in episode five, uh, in the Ilya Svetlana conversation. So that was fun. Um, but you know, growing up in Baltimore, like Baltimore doesn't have a nhl team and i would never root for a washington team washington dc team obviously um so i wasn't gonna root for the capitals and then like when i went to syracuse they had an ahl team so i went to a lot of crutch games i think it's really fun to see hockey live yeah i lived in new york i went to a lot of hockey games i don't really go in i've been to like one la king's game just sort of sad to say i've lived here for nearly 13 years um anyway so i don't feel necessarily like I'm dialed into.

41:24I kind of can't help but think about that when I'm watching a football show or a baseball show or a basketball show. It's not as top of mind for me watching a hockey show. I don't know that the hockey is the best, but I think that's okay because, again, it feels much more about the culture of hockey and the visibility of being a very famous person. They're supposed to be the two best players in the sport. and their celebrity is kind of undeniable, right? So I think the show is more interested in like, what does it feel like in that locker room?

42:03Joanna Robinson:Or at the ESPYs or whatever the comp is that they attend. Yeah, right, at the various award circuits. You know, at the player hotel, at the All-Star game. I was glad to get an All-Star game here because as I think I've mentioned to you before, I would like to get an Ilya Rosanoff hockey sweater, a jersey, but I would never, ever, ever wear a Boston jersey. Obviously, I'm from Baltimore, and Boston is a rival sports city, so I can't buy a Boston Raiders jersey if that's unthinkable. But maybe the East team all-star jersey. If they sell that, I could consider it at least. And you know, also that's the moment when Ilya and Shane got to be teammates.

42:41Who's going to center who? Great, great stuff.

42:43Joanna Robinson:Would you wear Montreal Metros? Would you wear New York Admirals? No, I would never wear a New York. I mean, other than Syracuse, where I went to college, like a New York City team. Got it. Absolutely not. Though I am a big fan of Hot Scott, of Hot Scott Hunter. So yeah, it's got to be the all-star jersey. The Montreal Hollander jersey, maybe. Yeah, maybe. I would at least consider it. I would consider it. In terms of your second question, about how the show is placed in time and engaging with its timeline, And, you know, I think, so first of all, I will not claim like encyclopedic expertise here, obviously, but I think this feels very right and very real to me in terms of what any player would be navigating or thinking about in this time.

43:38But I think especially in the, obviously in the universe of heated rivalry, it's the MLH, not the NHL, but like it's the NHL, right? So in the, and they're Russian and Canadian, but the NHL, it's an American sports league, you know, in the major leagues, the four major sports leagues, the NHL, the NFL, MLB and NBA. It is incredibly rare still for a player to be out. Like I think a lot of sports fans who follow closely would be able off the top of their heads to name key moments where players came out. And like, on the hockey front, I mean, so recently, Sean Avery, who played in the NHL for years, he said, he gave an interview, and he said he thought maybe that this show could actually help encourage a player in the NHL to come out.

44:40Luke Prokop, who was drafted in 2020 by the National Predators. He's in the AHL. He came out in 2021. So one year after being drafted. And when he did that, he was the first player to come out while under an NHL contract. The first in 2021. Now, I want to be clear that that's not the same as saying the first professional hockey player to ever come out. I'm drawing the distinction here between the major leagues. So that was like, that's notable, right? That that was in 2021 and he was the first while under an NHL contract. In the NBA,

45:21Jason Collins, there's a very, very, very famous Sports Illustrated cover. He became, and this was 2013, so inside the timeline of the show, he became the first openly gay NBA player. He came out, there was a cover story about it, and he was the first active male athlete in any of the four major North American sports to come out while actively playing. 2013.

45:51Football, Michael Sam,

45:56outstanding college linebacker at Missouri. He came out in 2014 heading into the NFL draft. Now, I think you will... There are people out there who would say, he tested poorly at the combine. He was undersized for a linebacker. He was like projected as a mid-round pick. He fell to the seventh round. He was drafted. He was drafted by the Rams. He ended up playing for, briefly for the Cowboys practice squad, the Dallas Cowboys practice squad in 2014. And then he played in the CFL. So he became the first openly gay player to play in a CFL game in 2015. So inside the timeline of the show. And then more recently, Carl Nassib, he's a defensive end.

46:42He became the first openly gay active NFL player. This was a really big moment. He was playing for the Raiders. He came out in 2021. He played for the Raiders and then the Bucs while out.

46:54Joanna Robinson:I saw a great... I guess I'm being sort of queer athlete content now on Instagram. So they're like, do you want this? So they gave me an interview where Carl was talking about... I don't know if you've heard this story where he was like... before he was out, he was like playing a game and, and they were doing some maneuver. The opposite team was doing some maneuver that I didn't understand what he was talking about, but he was frustrated. And so I think he like called them gay asses or something like that. And he was like, four of them turned around and said, you can't fucking say that. And he was like, this was a real moment to me where I was like, oh, there are allies here for me.

47:30Joanna Robinson:Like that, that made him feel safe to like take a step forward and, and come out. And I was like, oh, I love that story and he was like he was like and i was confronted with my own ignorance inside of my own like queer experience which is really interesting i'm thinking a lot about thank you so much for that contest thinking a lot about shane and ilia and the if you want to call it advantage that ilia has in his bisexuality in that he can like go out with his teammates and like have sex with a with a woman and like sort of like perform quote heterosexuality in a way that like shane is trying to with Rose, but like really struggling with, but like in terms of like code switching and passing or whatever, like Ilya has this advantage of his bisexuality, not, you know, not to like talk about things I don't understand, but that is something that I think is like interesting to think about in inside of their different experiences.

48:24Joanna Robinson:It's one thing to be gay, which Shane makes very clear he is inside of this episode. And as he points out, it's a different thing to be bisexual inside of this world. And I think that that is, I think it's really compelling to have those two differences, you know, with the biracial element for Shane or the, or the, you know, back home in Russia element for Ilya or all, you know, or, or Shane's parents being so involved and supportive, but what kind of pressure does that put on you, you know, with his like momager and all this or stuff like that. So I just think like, yeah, all of that context is really interesting to me.

49:01Yeah, and I think, again, that's certainly not a comprehensive list when you and Richard potted. Richard mentioned some Olympians who are out, there are tennis players, soccer players. There are some MLB players who came out after their playing days. There are some active minor leaguers who have come out while playing in the minor leagues. There are more openly gay players in women's leagues, of course. This is like, I think part of this is like this macho male locker room culture and the stigma and the fear of how you will be treated if you say, this is who I am and this is who I love. And I think on the one hand, we are, of course,

49:47seeing every day that there's more acceptance and love and an embrace and more people who have grown up with really progressive, healthy, open attitudes about all sorts of things, right? sexuality and gender expression among them. And that's great. But of course, there are still plenty of people full of hate and people who are prejudiced and bigoted. And that's a scary thing. Even if there are a number of people around you who might surprise you by how welcoming they are, or you see acceptance all around you for other people all the time. I think that the show is right to acknowledge that for those guys in that position, it would feel like a massive thing.

50:30And I thought when, without knowing that the Scott Kipp story was actually the first book, like when I watched the third episode, I didn't know that that was actually where the Game Changers series started. It felt to me like, you know, there are moments earlier in the show where like, Scott's like, well, what did you guys just like say to each other? Or like your boy, not my boy, right? All that. And it felt like, okay, we're gonna, learn more about Scott, it feels like. I was not expecting a full standalone episode, but then when we got it, it felt to me like this must be here because we are going to, because Scott is going to be the trailblazer because he will come out and as like the, to Ilya's point, 100 ,000 year old Scott Hunter, like old guard that like, what a powerful thing.

51:16And it would be a powerful thing for anybody at any age and experience, of course, to be clear. but like it felt like we were going to get this moment where Scott made this choice and it changed something about the league.

51:27Joanna Robinson:I don't know if this is context in the book and it was really funny when Richard and I did the episode a couple weeks ago I heard from a lot of people saying how weird it was for them to have read the books and I had it they were like this is a really odd experience to listen to like a Joanna podcast where you haven't read the books so Richard and I were like will Scott and Kip come back this season or whatever and they're like you dummies we know how important they are to the story. But I'm curious how much the fact that we keep hearing these... People talk about Scott being washed up. He's at the end of his career.

52:02Joanna Robinson:He's an old timer. So he gets the cup this season. Right. Does he then retire? Is he done? That would be my expectation. And does that just change? He's just like, this is it. I did it. I got the cup. Fuck all the radio announcers in my ear during my runs and stuff like that. I get to smooch my boyfriend and then I get to say, fuck you to the, to the, to the league. You know what I mean? That, that, that would be my guess. Right. And so different stakes. Yeah. And I think that's another, it's kind of just a continuation of what we were just saying where I think the show and this, obviously the book, the story in general, this world, it feels really honest because, you know, my feeling, your feeling, I hope the feeling that many, many, many people watching this carry with them is like, it's so, and sports fans in real life, like, Like, this is fucking sad.

52:47It's tragic if you feel like you can't live your life proudly and openly. That's like a terrible, terrible thing. But it is honest to acknowledge that that's the reality that a lot of people find themselves in still, even when we would like to think that a lot of people have made a lot of progress and grown a lot. There are plenty of terrible people out there every day who make you feel like you can't be who you are. So, yeah, if Scott is like, you know, the episode ends with... I thought that the... Everything with Scott and Kim was just wonderful. the camera moving just slightly in toward Ilya and then Shane and the looks on their faces.

53:23Joanna Robinson:I was getting, I was like, I was like breathless watching them. Oh my God. Scott, hearing the announcers be like, who's this lucky fan? Big day for him. It's like, buddy, you have no idea. It's really great. And I want to shout out, again, I already mentioned like Rose and Svetlana, but Elena, who is Kip's BFF, who's there with him. I just thought that was a really great character who's had very little screen time to really sort of endear herself to me and make herself part of this story. But I loved that. And then Elia's like, Shane being surrounded by his parents as he's watching this, and then the Elia phone call.

54:06Joanna Robinson:I do want to zoom back and say anything you want to say about the All-Star Game section? I was like particularly really endeared to the Ilia with kids in the pool scene that was just like very charming while he was still being himself but also just like very playful with these kids and involving Shane in this moment was just like really really like sweet and you know and then the like sexy slow-mo he gets out of the pool and shane is watching shaking off the pool water yeah um really good listen heated rivalry contains multitudes but it is not a heated rivalry episode if we have not seen ilia's astonishing pecs and or glutes at some point in the episode yeah the mole the mole array on his chest yeah so we needed that there's a shot in this episode when he's like brooding back home in russia drinking vodka and i was like why is your shirt off.

55:04Joanna Robinson:I'm fine. Okay. Sure. I guess so. You know, the hotel room convo that's a part of the All-Star Game stretch, we don't see the sex scene after the conversation that they have. But when we cut to Shane leaving, Ilya is shirtless in bed behind us. The bedding is rumbled. Yes. In disarray, I would say. It is. I really liked the All-Star Game stretch. I thought that the bar scene was another good example to me of the subtle way to show us how their relationship has progressed. The fact that they are sitting next to each other for that long, talking and engaging with each other. I mean, these are characters through a few episodes many years, but a few episodes ago, it was like, anybody can see us.

55:54Why would we be talking? We're arch rivals. you know so little things like that i thought that the moment where shane was like don't make fun of me but i got a stylist was just a just incredible absolutely perfect and then in the game you know the fact that they get to be teammates for for one beat here instead of rivals and this question of like they're both center so who's gonna get to play center and then you know ilia assists on a shane goal and they get to celebrate together and like that's smooches the helmet yeah the kiss on the side of the helmet like they're not afraid they're less worried about who's watching and what people might think, not because all of these big questions are not so present in their lives, but because there's a magnetism and a pull to each other.

56:33Shane says it in this hotel room conversation. He's like, I can't keep pretending I don't like you. And I think that this stretch captured that really well, just that authentic need they have to share life with each other, share moments with each other.

56:47Joanna Robinson:There's also a kind of classic romance novel progression inside of certain worlds where they go from calling each other by their last name to calling each other by the first name. So we like first get in episode four and that like sex scene that becomes like too real and Shane bails as he sort of cops do inside of this episode. Yes. But then you get the repeat of it inside of this episode when he leaves and they're much more like, you know, there's still unspoken things. There's still Ilya saying like, it can't be like this, you know, all this sort of stuff like that. But there is the just sort of like, good night Shane, good night, Ilya sort of moment in which they're much more settled.

57:25Joanna Robinson:It's like in the throes of passion the first time and then it's just in this much more settled version inside this episode. Yeah, like you say goodbye to your person and you call them by their name. It's great. So I thought in the hotel room conversation where Shane is like, I have this big thing to tell you, you know, and Ilya's like, yeah, and she's like, sorry if I'm like boring, but this is a big deal to me. I thought all of that was great. and I loved in particular in this conversation about like what they want when Shane said it felt like we were something you know he's apologizing for getting scared and bailing but he's like it did feel different it was different and Ilya tells him you know we can't be something and I loved when Shane said would you want to be if we could which just I don't know it felt like such a perfect encapsulation of where they are like there are all these real questions but what do you want do you want me and Ilya not not answering it like Ilya does not answer that in my head I'm like that's not what he asked then she's like that's not what I asked I was like thank you good job for saying that yeah and then before we get to the phone call which I can't wait to talk about just a little moment here where Ilya kind of breaks and he starts to cry talking about his father and just the way that Shane held him and like crawls into his lab and holds it and then that's the moment that we cut away when normally we would be, you know, the camera would be the third participant in their sex scene.

58:50It's like, because in that moment, like that's the depth of their intimacy.

58:55Joanna Robinson:That's what the connection is. We're not invited to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And then we get, you know, among many other things, there's the injury, there's all these things that happen. There's a tell him I'll be fine. He'll worry. But I think at least sort of like the last thing I really want to talk about is this phone call where ilia is speaking in russian um and shane is just listening uh like and what a beautiful thing for shane to think of just sort of like speak in russian and i will like listen to anything anyway i really did think that hudson's performance here of just sort of like hanging on every word to like sort of see what you could understand from tone or word.

59:37Joanna Robinson:I got worried for a second because I was like, well, he definitely heard Svetlana, but that's not like what he's going to say or like, have you Googled how to say love in Russian because it's in there and stuff like that. But the listening and then of course, like Connor as Ilya performing and like saying the thing that he can't say, you know, and he's in this like tunnel, graffiti like laid in tunnel just sort of like outside and not alone in a room inside but outside vulnerable in a space that is unfriendly to this kind of confession saying something in his native tongue in a space where someone could hear him.

1:00:19Joanna Robinson:There's no one really around but someone could hear him but not able to say it yet to Shane. And And I can't remember if I said this to Richard when we recorded earlier this week, but I have said it recently, so I'll just say it again. There is a thing I do sometimes when like, especially when it's a show about romantic tension and I call it like the Fleabag season two effect where I just like lean closer and closer to the TV screen as I'm just sort of like, what's going to happen here? Oh, yeah. That's how I was like during, you know, in all the sex scenes, I'm like, I know what's going to happen.

1:00:57Joanna Robinson:But during this phone call, I'm like, what is he going to say? What I really hope he will say. And then he does. And it's like, Shane doesn't know, but also does he kind of know? And it's just a really beautiful piece of television. This was my favorite scene of the season. I mean, I just thought I was crying. This was so good. And... again, great Hudson performance across the season. I think in particular in this episode, you know, when he's in the hospital bed and he's like, drugged up high. He's like, hey. Yeah, yeah. Very great. The comedic range, et cetera. But I agree with you. I think these just like, the camera just still on his closed eyes and the way that his attention is so apparent, right?

1:01:49There's nothing in the world more important to him than being present in that moment for Ilya in the way that is right for Ilya, who is the person in need right then. I just thought it was, like, lovely.

1:02:02You and Richard talked about the text messaging when you guys potted after season three and how, like, you know, that can go so wrong in a show. It can be just really a debacle in a show and how this show has actually used it quite well, I think, not only to, like, give us little insights into how they're communicating, but obviously it unlocks the, like, Like, oh, how's Boston Lily? Or, you know, not the way you love Jane, like you observed already, the observation that other people in their close inner circle orbits have about who they're interacting with. Even just as a way to kind of show us where we are in time.

1:02:32Like, oh, we're at the iMessage, like blue bubble era. You know, like things like, it's actually been kind of helpful, like going from emoticons to emoji. This was an even better example, I think, to me, of how the show has used technology to heighten intimacy instead of stifle it. Because, you know, the deployment of technology in like a relationship, it can be just bad, but it can also be like a cheat. You're trying to like fast forward something that we don't totally understand. And in some ways that is maybe a reflection actually of how people interact in modern life, right? I'm old and washed and I've been married for a thousand years.

1:03:12So I'm not the best person to comment on how the kids out there are talking to each other these days. But what this phone call did, it's like, it doesn't matter at all that he doesn't speak or understand Russian because this is asking us a question like, can you feel the truth for the other person, right? Can you sense what they are thinking and what they want and what they need, even if they can't or haven't said it to you? And that is, even though there are a lot of steps that they have to take together still. And, you know, the episode ends on Ilya saying, after telling Shane at the hospital, like, I can't, you know, I can't do that.

1:03:55I can't go to the cottage. You know, and we had watched him. It's another how they watch each other. One of the things that he was watching, that Ilya was watching on TV in a prior episode was Shane talking about his cottage and how it was like his favorite place in the world and the place where he felt peace.

1:04:10Joanna Robinson:Shane's Cribs episode, essentially. Exactly. And he was like, Mr. Real Estate. We called him that later. It's so good. Oh, something that I didn't know that the book readers informed me was like earlier in the season when they were talking about he got this apartment. You know, he got this one apartment in Montreal and then he bought the apartment next door. And he was talking about how he's like, oh, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it, et cetera, et cetera. It's an investment. Yeah. But what the book readers are saying is that he like bought the apartment next door so that he could like fuck Ilya up there essentially.

1:04:42Joanna Robinson:just like bought does your you know sexual partner care about you if he doesn't buy out an entire floor of a high rise so you can just like be as loud as you want to be where is our fuck palace that's my question to every romantic partner from here onward there you go so yeah I thought that scene was great and the episode was great and the show was great it's great that's all I have to say about that I do I okay I'm embarrassed. I don't like usually love to admit being dumb, but here we go. Um, it took me way too late to realize that like Jane sounds like Shane and Ilya and Lily are like close together.

1:05:22Joanna Robinson:It took me like way too long to figure that out. I am like really embarrassed by that. But what I love inside of this episode, we get, we understand because we know how stories work that like Ilya ignoring Alexi's like repeated phone calls probably means like he's ignoring something that's happening with his dad that is probably going to like, you know, uh, come back to haunt him. Um, so that's necessary for purposes, but also there's just this sort of like ignore and roll your eyes at every single Alexi phone call, but any buzz that happens to be Shane, you are like reading it, you are smiling and blushing at your phone.

1:05:59Joanna Robinson:You were just sort of like enjoying, uh, your, your, any, like any crumb from this other person just like lights up your day. The, you know, it's just like really beautiful. Last but not least, I will just say, the finale is called The Cottage and I'm like very, very excited to see what we see there. I mean, a cottage on like a private lake. We should be fucking on every surface. Every surface, indoor and outdoor, of the cottage and surrounding grounds, I expect to see sex. And high Shane, pain medicine to Shane was like, we could have one week, we could have two weeks? Who knows? I will say his parents, in the Cribs episode, they did say that his parents like summer home or whatever is nearby.

1:06:48Joanna Robinson:So that is information we have. Follow-up question. Yeah. What will Shane stock the fridge with? Is it Corona's? Is he going to be making tuna melts for Ilya? Great question. Are we getting some like good vodka? What are we doing to show that we pay attention and that we care? That's a great question. you know, Shane's like food intake, his macros have been a through line of, obviously he's like, oh yeah, I'll have a beer now. And, but I don't know. I think the question is, Ilya seems a little more, I was surprised to see all like the, it was like a lot of ingredients in Tupperware. Like he's doing meal prep as well.

1:07:25So this is a great question. I guess the Corona's and vodka.

1:07:28Joanna Robinson:I was so curious about the stack of Tupperwares for the tuna melt. That means the tuna salad is pre-made. Okay. Maybe the cheese is pre-shredded. Okay. Yeah. I do that. That's great. Lettuce? Lettuce leaves? Like, do we put lettuce on a tuna melt? I guess. Some people, you know? Yeah. Because if the tuna salad itself is already made, then presumably – because you could have, like, some celery or, you know, if you put onion or something for texture and then you're mixing it up. But if the tuna is already made, then what are all the other Tupperware for? I mean, I don't think it's keeping the bread in fridge.

1:07:56Joanna Robinson:It was one cup or too many that I was like, what is this for? Do we – oh, maybe, like, yeah, we put pickles on our Tupperware. I don't know. Anyway. Some crunch. Russians do love a pickled item is something that I know is to be true okay anything else you want to say about heated rivalry episode five oh boy just can't wait for the finale but also sad it's ending so that's the familiar yeah push pull of yeah the end of the TV season that we've loved yeah the reminder that the parents are nearby is a great one because my expectation and again I genuinely have no idea what is coming in these books I'm pure on the spoiler front.

1:08:35I have no intel here. My expectation would be... To your point about Scott and how he was like, all right, I'm 40, I've won the cup. You know, we've even heard him say to Kip in episode three, basically like, I do want this like one day after. Yeah, give me time.

1:08:56Joanna Robinson:Give me a year, give me a couple of years, something like that, yeah. And so I feel like there's going to be this surge after watching what they watched into the cottage stretch. And then probably a kind of a conversation, maybe exactly about that. Like, okay, but like, he just announced he's retiring. He's out of the league. It's not the same. And that maybe that will cause some tension if one of them is ready for something that the other one isn't. And of course, you could come out without revealing your relationship with each other. Right. I wonder if the big move in the finale is Shane coming out to his parents.

1:09:36I don't expect either of them to go public in the finale if we're getting a season two. That's just my guess based on the fact that season two is coming, but I don't know.

1:09:43Joanna Robinson:I don't know how, yeah, I don't know how the book, I think there are two Shane and Ilya-centric books. There's like a mid-series book and then towards the end of the series book. So I don't know. Same, please don't spoil me via email or tweet. I don't want to know, but here's my guess not knowing i would say his dad who when his mom was like come to wimbledon for the girls essentially and his dad was like really sit next to a princess yeah i believe his dad already definitely already knows and i think his mom probably knows but is like so i would say his dad is going to be fine and his mom is going to have uh but the business uh issue with it and what will that mean for their future stay tuned to season two to find out but that's a guess that I have based on zero information from the book but just based on like the breadcrumbs that have been laid so far I'm excited for us for the cottage montage of every surface and like definitely a lot of swimming montages we got a lake right there some skinny dipping for sure no question I love that okay Okay.

1:10:56Joanna Robinson:Mallory Rubin, thank you so much. Thank you. For hopping over. Talk to me on here. Guess what? If you enjoy Joanna and Mallory talking about men in love who are separated and one of them is sort of flamboyant and a bad boy and the other one is a bit more repressed, we will be covering Interview of the Vampire Season 2 later this week on House of R as well as one of the biggest movies of the year that Mallory had to force me to see, even though it should be my job to see Avatar, Fire, and Ash, as well as a couple of trailers that are going to be... We're doing all of that as part of our annual gift exchange over on House of R later this week.

1:11:33Joanna Robinson:We'll also be covering the rest of Stranger Things on House of R. So please tune in. And then, of course, Rob and I will be back with Pluribus with the end of your mailbag. PrestigeTV at Spotify.com. Not wholenotpeg at gmail.com. That is not an email that I have procured. But PrestigeTV at Spotify.com belongs to us. So does LickingTheDonut at gmail.com. Molly Rubin you're just the best to ever do it and I am so glad that you had the time to do this with me thank you thank you for this gift thank you for this gift I can't wait to watch the finale I can't wait to talk about it together maybe we'll do a little check-in at some point if we read the books ahead of season two yes I love that for a book corner a little book talk should we make a book talk should we make a I've been actually wondering if like next year should be like House of Reads I agree I've been thinking about it as well yeah you know Like a book club sort of thing?

1:12:26Book club, book talk, reading passages, talking about stories we love, opening at long last House of Reads. What will we be serving? Will we have tuna melts on the menu at House of Reads? Stay tuned to find out.

1:12:41Joanna Robinson:It's a punch and aroma to invite into our lives. Thank you to Dev and Peraldi for production work on this episode. Thank you to Justin Sales for happily agreeing when I said, please let me cover this show on our Prestige feed. And we'll see you very soon. Bye.

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