‘Industry’ S4 Finale: "Both, And" … What the Hell Just Happened?

13:36Rob:This episode is called Both And, which is something, speaking of people repeating words, to be here. Yasmin deploy this phrase in justifying her decisions to Harper. And then Harper uses it in her interview with Patrick Radden Keefe, who has a cameo inside of this episode. He asked, does being so uniquely right when everyone was so totally wrong feel like vindication or does it ultimately make you feel very alone? She says both and basically like quoting Yasmin in a way that like is very chilling to me, but also very emotionally vulnerable to me. Rob, what do you think of this as like a title for this episode and a concept for both of these women here at the end of this season?

14:20Jodi:Oh, it's the most industry concept imaginable that we exist in all of these spaces simultaneously, that we're going to twist them in order to justify them, as Jodi was talking about with Yas. I also think it applies to a lot of the political dealings in this episode as well. This idea of, aren't these things wrong and beyond the pale? Yes, and. All nations are doing it to each other simultaneously. And so it's just like this fact of life that there is this level of compromise happening across all characters, across all nation states, that everyone is trying to like justify their way around. That I find to be like an incredibly fertile space for industry to mine.

14:57Jodi:As far as like the recurrence of like that specific line in this episode, I did find it chilling. I don't know what to make of the whole Patrick Raddenkief, like, coda in terms of the interview with Harper. Like, I don't know. I had a hard time with that as, like, it felt like a very, we think the show might end and we're not positive we're going to be renewed for a season five. Very sensitive to, like, the difficulties of writing under those circumstances. I don't know. It's just that whole exchange about being so terribly and uniquely right when everyone else is so wrong and doesn't it make you feel so alone?

15:30Jodi:it felt blunt in a way that I don't like industry when it's that blunt like I prefer when it's a slightly softer hand than that and I felt like in the end with Harper that's where we ended up with a lot of this stuff is like I'm being I'm being told via interview with Patrick Redden Keefe who Harper is in a way that I kind of know but also I don't kind of don't understand

15:52Jo:Jodi yeah I I also found that Coda a little confusing mostly like the the camera pivot to, uh, Quabana. Like I didn't, I, when we had just had the scene between them, that was like, is it worth, you know, protecting yourself at the cost of everything else, which I thought was an interesting line and an interesting answer. Yes. And, and that we know that he's still there on that plane as she does this interview. I, I wondered what that meant. It's funny, Rob, that you say like, that's such an industry thing. Like Like that was my exact thought was the repetition of the both. And of course, what she is repeating that Yaz has said originally is the world is not exploitation or opportunity.

16:42Jo:It's both. And that's the world. That's maturity. Oh, Yasmin. No, sweetie. Like, and that's so industry, like to just to just outright say the world is not exploitation or opportunity. it's both and actually for some of us those kinds of thoughts never come up fun fact no i i think

17:03Rob:it's interesting for yasmin to use the words of people who have exploited her to justify her actions this idea of like this is maturity this is this is intelligent this is the intelligent thing to do people will just exploit you so you might as well exploit them first or else you know you're going to be the one who's vulnerable i i don't feel as much as essentially what she says here, right? I don't have as much pain. I guess my question, and I kind of like if the answer is no, is like, do you feel like Yasmin is the one in control of this situation here at the end of the episode? Because like my, I'm not saying that like Haley's the mastermind of everything, but the way in which like Haley and these girls have hopped from Whitney's network, which involves like an upper echelon of Russian, uh, you know, machinations over to Yaz, like Yaz is a go between, but she's not the architect of all of this.

17:57Rob:What they're doing, right. Is them gathering information on all these incredibly powerful, um, you know, people from various nations who are in, who are gathered together in this room here, the way that Sebastian's eyes follow Haley as she walks across the room, like they're going to, they're going to get compromise on him and on all these people in the room. And is that not just then, we have got so many warnings about the Russians inside of this episode, in Mauston's conversation with Henry, in everything that happens with Jenny. Is that not a trail to follow for season five of just sort of like, Yasmin's a part of this, but she's not in charge of this and in control of anything.

18:37Jodi:I don't know. What do you think? I hope that's the case. And I say that in part because not only is that just like a great narrative thread to tug on. But Hayley as a character, I feel like from the moment she left that elevator with Yaz has kind of had like nothing else interesting to do at the tail end of this season. Like she has been purely an accessory to the rest of the story. And like, I hope for more of that character than that because I think there's a lot that they could do with her. And I think Kiernan Shipka has been regularly quite great on this show. And so if she has more of a role to play as we kind of like is hinted in this episode as you're talking about, Joe, of like who is really in control here.

19:14Jodi:I don't really care to what extent she's doing anything with the game tape, but like who has what leverage on whom and how that's going to be played for Yaz. I'm very eager to see. And I hope that's the case. I hope this isn't as straightforward as Yaz seems to believe that it is.

19:29Jo:Jodi? I think when you create a world or a worldview that makes you necessary and inevitably then makes other people less than necessary. You're a fool to believe that as they were fools to believe that you weren't necessary. Right. And we see Yasmin convincing herself of these structures that in some ways she doesn't believe in. And it's kind of interesting to hear her, like you said, repeating her father's language, saying that like she became a woman when she wanted to, when she, you know, lost her virginity at 14. When a lot of what I was seeing in this episode was like, unfortunately, Yasmin becoming a woman now.

20:11Jo:Like she is sort of, you know, she's sort of like facing the adult world somewhat alone, finally, not like looking for a man to save her, but doing it herself. And I just distinctly get the feeling that it's not going to work, that she's not in control of the situation, that there are so many levels above her that to actually, when you create these structures for yourself, I'm either necessary or not necessary. And then you buy into that you're necessary. It's like, of course not. I mean, we see this with Whitney. Like he was really high up in this structure of how, and he's completely replaceable and like literally killable, you know?

20:55Jo:The whole episode, and we'll talk about it when we get to Henry, but it's about knowing your place. And when you are so desperately looking for your place, like that's the one thing that Henry has is that he feels confident in his place in the world and that drives him. And it's the only thing that like gives him confidence or the ability to move through. And I think throughout all four seasons, we've seen that just so severely shaken in Yasmin.

21:23Rob:Let's talk about Whitney and Henry on the plane. So, you know, the whole like Dickie Greenleaf, Tom Ripley confrontation comes back again instead of like oars or throwing passports, but we are like sort of just putting, putting somewhat of a different class in their place. I was so frustrated that he left the money behind. I was like, why did you leave him with a means to leave? And therefore you have to take what minimal punishment you will take, which is like an ankle monitor and you're back on the lithium, but like whatever. But Whitney, getting to see Whitney try to put the fake beard on, incredible shit, honestly.

21:58Rob:Really, really good stuff. His whole house of cards collapsed, right? He's so confident that he can get Henry to do whatever he wants to do. And he does get the money to the plane, which is ultimately really what he needs.

22:08Jodi:I mean, it's quite a risk, Joe, to leave the money with Henry in the first place.

22:12Rob:Well, I think it was just in that house, right? I guess.

22:15Jodi:I mean, it is a tender house. Yeah, it was tender's house.

22:17Rob:I think that was just like where he had stashed a bunch of stuff and he couldn't get to it. So he needed Henry to bring it to him.

22:22Jo:Oh, I think he wanted the romantic run through the airport scene.

22:25Rob:I absolutely think he plotted that. You think he put the money there being like, Henry has to bring it? This is my life. Yes. Okay, I love that. I think so.

22:32Jodi:I think he wanted to reel that in and he could get Henry to the plane. Romantic souls.

22:36Rob:And I love that. That's beautiful.

22:39Jodi:Us and Whitney.

22:40Rob:What do you make of the fight? So the final shot of him is in the credits. Like we get him in this like red light, sort of like a very blink and you'll miss it sort of moment. Conrad and Mickey have said that this is from like a more extended sequence in a gay club in Lithuania. And this is like a shot through a glory hole in a gay club in Lithuania. And him just being sort of like paranoid about what's on the other side of that. thinking about him, his use of Henry, maybe, maybe to your romantic souls longing and missing, uh, longing for missing Henry. But, you know, did this feel like a Whitney Hallstrom will return an Avengers doomsday sort of moment, or did this feel like a perfect kind of button on the character?

23:20Rob:What do you think, Jodi?

23:21Jo:I mean, I do believe that the threat of Whitney returning is always there. I mean, that's what he says when Henry's like, you really think I'm going to fucking run with you? Are you crazy? I'm a sir. The flashback and forth between the passports of like Sir Henry Muck and like the Lithuanian name. He has sir on his passport. You think I'm going to run with you? And Whitney is basically like, we're not running. We're repositioning ourselves. Incredible. That is his Avenger superpower. It is his only power. And it's the power that Henry has marveled at is like his ability to constantly reposition himself, slap on some beard glue and tell a new story.

24:06Jo:I think it's more likely that he'll die, but I think that the threat is always there that he'll be back.

24:12Rob:Rob, do you want him back or what do you think?

24:15Jodi:I absolutely do. I mean, for me, the Whitney stuff throughout this season has been some of the highlights of the season. I think the way he has manipulated everyone on the board and like, that's almost a construction of a character more than it is an actual character. Like who knows what that guy actually is, but the way it spun everyone else around, I found to make for really compelling television. And it's tough because his story with Henry, this is a natural endpoint, right? Like Henry putting his foot down, not for conscience, but for ego is like a good button to put on their whole journey together.

24:47Jodi:And so I don't know how Whitney gets pulled back in, but I'm never going to be mad if he is.

24:52Jo:Jodi? I think to bat, my thought is that it seems pretty obvious that we will be getting more Sebastian Stefanowicz. Stefanowicz? Yeah.

25:03Jodi:Stefanowicz, yeah.

25:04Jo:He's such a Sebastian to me. It's all, the face just reads Sebastian. Who called him Seb? It really does. Yeah, I actually have been calling him Seb in my notes. Thank you so much. Did you see that his son's name is Albin,

25:15Rob:which literally just means white? Yeah. Like, my God. Make it a little harder to track it.

25:22Jodi:No, he's so subtle, Joe. He's being so clever about it.

25:25Jo:But he is also this sort of construction of a character. And like on purpose, he named his son White, you know, and he has like a dinner party full of Nazis. I think to have both of those characters at once really there might be kind of a lot because they are these like purposeful constructions to get ahead. And I think that that's what made Henry like a really good counterpoint to Whitney. And for me, as the season went on, Whitney, I was very interested in Whitney as like a cult leader, someone on top of his manipulation game. And the more pitiful he got, the harder it became to watch. And I, you know, I don't think that I want like talented Mr.

26:11Jo:Ripley part two. But I would welcome back, you know, what sounds to be a scene shot entirely through the other side of a glory hole.

26:20Jodi:I mean, look, a cult leader gets a little down on his luck and you're just abandoning him like that.

26:24Rob:Literally, that's how cult works. That's how cults work, Rob. Rob's a huge defender of Ripley's game. He loves a Ripley sequel. Completely. Listen, so Henry. Let's talk about it. So Henry's breakup, if you want to call it that, with Yaz. How did you two romantic souls feel about Yaz giving the old like flea bag? Whatever it is you're feeling, it'll fade. How did you feel about that, Rob?

26:50Jodi:I thought it was what he deserved after he tried to pull the word Catholic for fuck's sake. I mean, of all the Hail Marys you can throw in this particular instance. They had a whole future, a life, and the kids, Rob.

27:01Rob:Come on.

27:02Jodi:Apparently no one bothered to tell Yaz about that life and future. And I guess the kids, they did technically talk about, but she never really signed on to. Yeah, I think even just even describing it as Henry, Henry's breakup with Yaz feels generous to Henry about the agency of what happened in that room.

27:19Jo:I'll tell you what, as a romantic, I could not stop laughing. I truly was laughing during this scene. It was so funny, the back and forth, the earnestness with which they are treating a very inauthentic situation. that has always been an agreement at best. And I believe that Henry believes that he loves Yaz. And I believe that Henry does not want to be left because when left by Yaz, the only lap there is for him to sort of crouch down to is his uncles. And that's a low place to be. It's not as sexy. It's not as sexy.

27:52Jodi:But at least he found a lap and or a bosom to cry into. It's better than nothing.

27:57Jo:And Uncle Alexander is so tall. And so it works in a standing way there at the end. It is so funny to me. in this show and in so many other shows about rich people doing bad things, to listen to their disappointment around not getting the life they thought, like him stuttering over, like, but what about, you know, the life we imagine the kids? And then to think about how he's been living his life. And it's like, in that little fucked up head, you really thought that was still what was coming your way? Right. Take it back to the harpsichord, buddy.

28:31Rob:i i so the the yasmin harper stuff is to me the show and in in like is the most powerful stuff in this episode but if i think i think if i were had if i were to isolate like one scene that i've been thinking about the most after that it's lord mostyn and um henry um at lunch where his his other uncle here is is sort of telling him like hey man careful what you're doing. Right. Because so, so this idea of Henry as someone who genuinely does want to do good, like this is something that Mickey and Conrad have been saying in interviews is like, Henry actually does believe his own bullshit in terms of like, I want to democratize finance or democratize energy or whatever, all this sort of stuff like that.

29:17Rob:So like, can I with Jenny help sort of unravel this large Russian cabal or something like that? And to be met with the harsh reality from his uncle, which, which was, um, as, as every recap of the show has, has made plain an allusion to a real life thing that happened to property developer, Scott Young, who, who was pushed out of a window in much, in much the same way, um, that, that, um, Mostyn describes, but did it, did it feel to you guys like Mostyn was also threatening him? Like, Oh, like warning him, but also like, I'm like, cause if anyone has called for bad on them, it's, it's most for sure.

30:00Rob:Right. And so like, I feel like to me, laced into that conversation, I'm, I could be reading incorrectly, but it felt like this is a thing that happens to be careful, but also, um, I will look the other way. If, if push comes to shove, you're the one getting shoved, not me. And I, I, it felt threatening to me. What did you, what did you think, Jodi? Do you disagree?

30:21Jo:Well, I think, you know, we hear Henry in this episode, giving reminders to Whitney to, to know your place and you would be mistaken not to. Henry himself also needs those reminders from his elders from time to time. Know your place, your place as a sir, as a Lord is not to be a disruptor. You know, it is to literally maintain the status quo, even when the status quo is evil, which it is. And we hear Otto in this conversation talk, you know, he built his Russian shopping mall. He he made those inroads and those inroads are there and they will lead back to something that isn't good for the threat.

30:59Jo:I couldn't tell how direct it was supposed to be, but I did feel the whisper of a threat. And I also really loved the very small beat in that conversation where it's like the stakes could not be higher for Henry. You know, he is potentially going to prison. He is potentially being murdered. Like it could be anything. He was recently offered a fake beard. And and Otto is like, did I ever tell you about my old pal Clovis Wodenhaus? And Henry's like, no, you know, like you still have to listen to your uncle. Like you still have to listen to the stories because that's how you uphold the legacy. You know, you listen to what your uncle's did before you and then that's what you do.

31:38Jo:And look

31:39Rob:at what he did. The institution doesn't suffer, Jodi. You know what I mean? It does not. The institution of English aristocracy. Yeah. Rob?

31:45Jodi:Part of the reason I'm compelled to agree with you, Joe, that this was... How explicit the thread is, I think we can try to figure out over time when the show comes back. But like, he seems very easy with this whole idea. When you think about Whitney, Whitney was sweating bullets for weeks on weeks on weeks on weeks. And here's Otto just being like, so you might get dangled off a balcony. You might get dropped to your death. oh, by the way, can I get my wine topped off over here? And like the score shift from like gravely serious to we're just having fun at lunch, I think is just like one of the funniest parts of this episode.

32:17Jodi:So he is way too comfortable with whatever is happening. And Henry, we should say, wading into counterintelligence, like bumbling his way through. I mean, it's just not gonna go well. So someone needed to warn him off it.

32:28Rob:I absolutely loved the way we leave Henry and his two uncles here at the end of the episode in the fishing boat. the Gilbert and Sullivan back on the score, right? He is an English man, which we've talked about a couple of times a season, but the way that he is like reeling this fish in and seems like very, you know, back on his medication and I'm pro being on your meds, so stay on your meds. But the way that he's just like, seems so convinced that he's the one reeling the fish in when his two uncles are like holding him down and up. And like, you know, you're like in the embrace of the family, but also being restrained by the family.

33:08Rob:And you're, you're a gentleman of leisure doing your leisurely activities, but also the, your uncles are doing all the work for you. And it was just like, it was just like the perfect, like helpless, coddled space to leave Henry. And I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see Henry. I like, I love Kit Harington in this role, but like, this is kind of where I want to leave Henry. I don't need him like really much in the mix next season. What do you think, Jodi?

33:33Jo:Yeah, it felt like the right clothes to me because it's kind of like within this season and especially this episode, we see him grappling with his place. And is there something different for him to do here? Can he be more? Can the world need him? and it seems like he settles pretty firmly into no and not since Lindsay Lohan has there been such an iconic ankle monitor moment than that zoom in on that stupid little boat in a pond probably on their property full of fish that somebody put there. You know, like it's so embarrassing sort of and that I do think is the way that, it is a perfect ending I think for that character that had all of the opportunity to grow and took none of it and ended up and did a lot of bad and ended up exactly where he started.

34:27Rob:It's fascinating to me that like, you know, Lord Norton is like, so, so, seemingly so central to whatever is going to go forward. And then I'm like, Henry, take or leave.

34:39Jo:I like that because Uncle Alexander is a character that I am like, where does he stand? You know, I mean, he's a girl dad. We've seen him like within this show.

34:50Rob:On his walks, his long walks with the girls.

34:52Jo:He has this like paternal energy and he's had these times where it seems like he's tried to save Henry or save Yaz from themselves. And then like in this conversation with Sebastian, he almost like, he seems like morally upstanding when you compare it to this neo-Nazi. Yeah, the bars in hell. The bars in hell. He's cleared it, yeah. But you and he is like a rare case of an established person. You know, he is an old person, not a young person. And so, like, what does that mean for his involvement in this sort of new political class? Like, will he go lower? Will he actually be someone who, like, has a moral backbone?

35:33Jo:Also, his continued relationship to Yasmin, who I guess now runs his comms. I mean, she's going to make it on the Forbes 30 under 30 for these, you know, this movement through the comms game.

35:43Jodi:Oh, she's a connector for sure.

35:45Jo:And also her criminal activity.

35:47Jodi:Well, yeah, that's going to get her on many a list. Yeah, I love the idea of Alexander as that stand-in for the establishment more so than Henry going forward, just because Henry is not about this life and up to these challenges in terms of, you know, like if someone is going to stand up to Sebastian Stavanovich, it's not going to be Henry. And I like that we see a moment from Jennifer Bevin in this episode, like getting to make her speech to some applause, getting to kind of defend herself and these like very projected, constructed ideals in a lot of ways based on the reality of what happened.

36:17Jodi:But she's a character I'm already wondering like how up for this fight is she going to be in terms of what the future politics of industry holds?

36:25Rob:Yeah, fascinating. I will say in terms of the way in which industry has ended these last two seasons when they weren't sure they were going to get another season, you know, I'm not looking to an ending where Sebastian and Yaz get their comeuppance. Like, I don't know that this is a show or a moral universe. Really, they're showing us our own universe. And like, Glenn Maxwell isn't really suffering, you know, for her crimes that much. And nor is anyone who's been outed on the Epstein list. So like, I don't know. I don't think this show is going to... I was like romantically rooting for Harper and Yaz for reconciliation.

37:11Rob:Not like this, guys. Not like this. But I was rooting for it. But now I'm just sort of like, I don't, I guess the best I feel like I can hope for is Harper taking that sort of Gus Robb like train out of this entire universe and heading off to the green pastures that are Silicon Valley. I don't know. What do you think, Jodi?

37:30Jo:My feeling in seeing Yasmin join forces with Sebastian is kind of like a further step into what she hoped for with Henry. Like, not romantically necessarily, but we saw with Henry that even though he's dead-ass wrong, he is someone who believes that he wants the good things that he wants. You know, like, he is someone who sort of has good intentions. And for Yasmin, who is this person who really does seem to like live in the black and white, the good and evil, she is now finding herself in the midst of people who actually fully believe in the evil things that they think. Like she is not someone who believes in the things that she thinks.

38:18Jo:You know, she is not a convicted person. And she's always sort of watching. She might be. I think that's the interesting thing is like, I mean, awful, but interesting is she is always attaching herself to people who have conviction, whether it's Harper or Henry or Sebastian. And this like what you see in the line where he is where she's sort of teasing about her divorce and he says he doesn't believe in divorce. And she's kind of like, oh, what do you think? It's an affront to God. And he's like, yes, I think it's an affront to God. I think she is sort of non-sexually aroused by that kind of conviction.

38:59Jo:And like, what might my life be like if I thought things so intensely bad? Well, she's sober now, Jodi.

39:08Rob:You know what I mean? Yeah. And she's sober and for fun. Yeah.

39:11Jo:It's just for fun.

39:12Rob:She just likes clarity.

39:15Jodi:This episode is brought to you by Viore. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy. But Viore, I got to say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably going to see me wearing some Viore. Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four-way performance stretch fabric. One of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere. I promise. All you have to do is go to viore.com slash Simmons and you get 20 % off your first purchase with Viore. V-U-O-R-I.com slash Simmons. Enjoy free shipping on all U.S.

39:49Jodi:orders over$75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. I'm not an astronaut.

39:58Rob:I don't need an astronaut. Audiences have spoken. Project Hail Mary is an awe-inspiring masterpiece. So I met an alien. If you've fallen out of love with going to the movies, this one will bring you back. Ryan Gosling in the first must-see movie of 2026. Project Hail Mary, rated PG-13, may be inappropriate for children under 13. Only in theaters March 20th.

40:50Jo:Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

40:56Rob:Rob, what did you think of the way that Eric is used in this episode, right? We get both Harper trying to call him when Stern no longer Tao make their payday. And then we get the Yasmin using the footage of him to sort of score some points on Harper here or make her point about the way in which the world works. What did you think of sort of his ghost haunting this episode?

41:23Jodi:I mean, it makes sense to tie up some of these loose ends, especially rather than have them just hang over the future of the show. Like, I think one of the worst things for industry would be for people to just be speculating, will Harper ever see the tape or figure out the truth about Eric? Like, it makes sense to just, like, get that out of the open and then deal with all of the consequences that come with it. Do I believe that Yaz, even as somebody who is willing to tell herself anything to justify her own behavior, would play this tape as she is literally pimping out the same underage girl in the very room in which it's happening while still claiming to be the necessary and good person.

41:58Jodi:Like, I think that was part of what I bumped on. And so, like, I get the mechanism, but I did not get Yaz's deployment of that tape.

42:05Rob:Isn't the story that she's spinning here, A, that Eric knew she was underage, which he didn't. The creators have confirmed that Eric didn't, right? So, like, A, that, which is either something that she's been lied to about or she is lying to Harper about. And then B sort of says that she's not underage. Girls lie about their age. She's not underage. But again, is that something that she's been lied to about? Or is it true? Or is it, you know, I'm unclear on where the lie is inside of all of that. I don't know that it matters at the end of the day because Yaz has just like constructed a web where she can justify anything, any decision she makes and any decision that anyone else makes is like this sort of warped form of female empowerment.

42:47Rob:Um, so it's just, I know Jodi, I really agree. This is the best face you've ever made. And I really, really painful. Yeah. What do you think, Jodi?

42:56Jo:Oh yeah. I mean, I guess my, my, my quite literal take was that either what Yasmin believes or what she is saying is that Dolly, right. Is the, is the little cousin is, um, a young woman who acts like she is underage, but she is not.

43:14Rob:She's pretending she's 15 so that guys who want to be with a 15-year-old can feel like they're with a 15-year-old.

43:20Jo:And is telling Harper that Eric believed her to be underage or sort of was complicit in her acting like she was underage or something. Which I think the show says pretty well in the, you know, reveal of the video to Eric when he gets it in his email that he seems pretty shocked by that. So I didn't. But yeah, that I mean, the the continued sort of details around this character that are that is, you know, in either in no matter what the what conclusions we draw could, I think, conceivably be called a girl like could conceivably be called a very young woman no matter what. But Yasmin knows what she's tied up in.

44:01Jo:You know, like she she knows that these girls could be lying to her about their age. She knows that these dudes whose laps they're sitting on don't give a shit about their age or do in the wrong way. And also like, yeah, OK, a party does need gender balance. But when all the women are sitting on laps, it actually takes away a lot of that balance. And it's actually like not super fun when all of the women are sitting on men's laps. This is your hottest take ever, Jodi.

44:29Rob:And I applaud you for your. Just a classic lap sitting party.

44:34Jo:I love to walk into a living room and see every woman on a lap.

44:38Rob:Yeah, better than a sausage fest, I guess. It's a lap party, I guess. On the dolly front, I did want to note. So what I think is interesting about the way that Eric's used in this episode. Yeah, this has been a season of ghost dads. We've got ghost dads haunting all over the place. We get this footage of Eric in this episode. And then we get the recording of Charles, you know, that Yaz plays for herself again at the end of the episode. So like these digital remnants of these father figures inside here. And then like I was reminded of, and I promise I wouldn't bring it up, but it's been many episodes since I have.

45:13Rob:But Roman Roy playing this like meme-ified video of Logan Roy after his death over and over again. It's talking about how Roman Roy has like a micro penis. Like it's this like weirdly edited, like video footage of his father, but he watches it over and over again. So obviously like that's, that's something I'm thinking about. But also, um, what Charles says in the voicemail, a couple of things. First of all, this idea that like, bring a friend of yours. So she brought Harper into like this thing that she knows this world where her father, like, you know, likes to parade young women around, um, either for his own, uh, you know, disgusting joy or the men that he entertains, et cetera.

45:51Rob:He, he originator of the lap party. Well, no, he did not originate the lap party. But anyway, like that's, that's what she's invited. A man proprietor at least. That's what she's invited Harper to, you know, in, in the previous season. And then also he, he calls Yasmina, right? Which he has before, but that's his like diminutive for her. And he calls her light of my life, right? And this is the opening of, of the novel Lolita, right? Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins, my sin, my soul. And then further down that paragraph about Lolita, where he talks about all her different names, he says she was Dolly at school, Dolores on the dotted lines.

46:31Rob:This idea of like the Dolly character that we've seen this season is part of this chain that involves Yasmin down to her, all of it wrapped up in the most iconic. I mean, Mickey and Conrad love a literary illusion, like, um, story of pedophilia, but I just, I was so ill watching Yaz listen to that recording over and over again. Uh, Jodi, what did, did you think?

47:00Jo:Yeah, it's awful. The it's a it's it's a horror movie, you know, to to watch her. And it reminds me of of last season when the doors closed behind her, when the the young woman on the boat that she saw having sex with her father that she then hires, then fires. It's a lot of, you know, sit down, shut the door like it's a lot of closing doors. And when she tells now this young woman that she is bringing to the lap party to close the door behind her so she can have a moment, so she can listen to these voicemails from her father over and over. I love what seemed to me to be a sort of audio shift of like hearing, listening to the voicemail and then seeming to hear it sort of rattle around in her head.

47:47Jo:Like there was this shift in the audio as she lays down on the carpet. And it felt like she was like conditioning herself to no longer hate her father, but like fulfill his role in the world. And that's really awful. That was really, that was really bad.

48:04Jodi:Yeah, it felt like an extension of the conversation she's having with Harper about like how the only people who could survive are people who have been hardened by their experience. right and so it's like to me she's very much playing that in that conditioning capacity you're talking about Jodi of like I have to remind myself of how horrible the world is in order to play a part in it whatsoever uh it's horrendous to watch I like this was I thought the most effective piece of the episode by far just like watching this segment of it on screen and trying to live with the realities of it and I also think like weird enough for Yaz's journey so much of this season has been her building up to being in a position to tell Haley when she closes the door for her, oh, you can have the day off and not giving the like, oh, you can't tell me that.

48:50Jodi:I'm not your boss.

48:51Rob:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

48:51Jodi:She finally is her boss. Like she is daddy once and for all.

48:56Jo:Yeah, and be at dinner at eight and Hermes is expecting you. Exactly.

48:59Jodi:And so like she is getting a version of a thing that she wants. And this is the cost for it is that in order to gear herself up mentally to participate in this, she's got to listen to this tape on repeat, apparently.

49:10Rob:The way that she's restyled herself as Hanani, right? Like her father's name. In the Gullah and Maxwell documentaries that I watched, there was this like really disturbing interview that she gave on a park bench in Central Park, a weird place for an interview in 1992. But anyway, she's talking about her father. And the interviewer's like, hey, you know, there's so much scandal. Your father's died. There's so much scandal around your name. You've moved to New York. You've reinvented yourself. you know did you think about changing your name to like get away from the Maxwell name and she was like no I love my name I was bored with my name I'm proud of my name and I'll have it forever and so the way that Yasmin's like leaning away from Lady Muck and back into uh not even the the double barrel version of her name but just Hanani just her father's name like is um very disturbing also I really love is not the word uh admire the way that this season is bookended by this dinner party that she throws with like Jenny at the beginning of the season.

50:09Rob:And then this Sebastian dinner party at the end of the season. And again, this is like a very Glenn Maxwell coded, but also has always just been Yaz's like, I think Jenny brought this up really beautifully earlier this season, connector of people, like a throw of events and a connector of people. But that line that she has in episode two, when she's like arguing with Henry and she's like, like, don't be dumb. I've never voted. like the fact that she went from like labor earnest labor jenny to like you know neo-nazi seb inside of this the space of a season because it does not matter what they believe she does not give a shit what they believe their power is what she craves and the proximity to power and and the cover it can give her um which again and this is actually just genuinely the last time i'll say it reminds me of like roman roy's whole storyline with justin kirk's care at the end of succession right where he's just sort of like cozying up to nazism because like for roman it's like it's fun and it's chaotic and it's this whole other thing but like because he doesn't have to think about and he doesn't care to think about the actual consequences of what this kind of uh ideologies rise to power could mean for people in the world because he's insulated from actual repercussions is very much what yaz is dealing with here because she's like it doesn't matter like this this is, she's spouting the party line.

51:28Rob:She's ahead of comms here. Like, but at the end of the day, she's not thinking about the impact it will have down to not really processing what it would mean to put Harper next to literal Nazis at the dinner table. And her reaction to that, where she was just sort of like a little bit sorry, but a little bit not at the same time, a little bit embarrassed, but a little bit not.

51:47Jo:Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I really wasn't thinking, I didn't know there would be Nazis here, but I did not mean to sit you by then. And like, that actually isn't a front to her upbringing, you know, like as someone who makes table card settings.

52:00Rob:She definitely did the table setting. So like, was it more like I didn't think about the fact that you're like a black woman here in this context or what that meant? And I guess my bigger question for you, Jodi, is like, why do you think Yaz invited Harper to this party, this event, this dinner?

52:18Jo:Well, it was interesting that you noted that Yasmin, when we hear her father's voicemail, that he's like, bring a friend to the boat and she brings Harper because she's not allowed to bring men, but that's about as close to a man as she can get in terms of how she behaves socially. Harper's not going to sit on a lap. I think that that was some form of bringing protection. And I think in that way, she also, she desperately wants Harper to see her succeed. And she sees what she's doing now as succeeding. You know, she's comms for a fascist and working for Uncle Alexander. And she's like, this is success.

53:01Jo:Look at me. I finally have power. See this power. You're powerful too. And that's why I say like, I don't love this. I don't love this conclusion, but there is a part of me that wonders, like, would Yasmin have ever gone to these lengths if she hadn't met Harper, a woman who is so powerful and who doesn't care about structures and who moves her way through the world without class and standing? I think that has driven Yasmin to want to be more successful, to want more out of the world. And we've watched her feel time and time again, but now she feels like she's gotten somewhere. I don't think she thinks Harper's going to donate to this, but I think she wants Harper to see her there, which is yet another, you know, classic Yaz, like yet another mistake.

53:48Jo:You didn't think this all the way through. You sat her next to Nazis. Yeah, Yaz did. Yaz did.

53:53Jodi:Yaz did again. Yeah, I don't think it even occurred to her. And Jodi, I'm so bought in on what you're saying as far as like Harper is a motivating factor for Yaz in so many different ways. And I think some of that is like, even Yaz's aspirations here, her aspiration is not to be necessary, it's to feel necessary. right? Like she wants to feel important, I think more than she wants to be important. And so in a world where she and Harper never meet, I think she flames out a peer point, much like she did in the Harper reality. But after that, like who's to say in which direction she would spin off or to what ends or whether she'd be somebody who is chasing after something versus just somebody who is comfortably social, because she like she had those avenues available to her.

54:33Jodi:And I think part of what makes her as competitive as she is within the world of industry is like seeing Harper go after something so wholeheartedly over and over and over and pursue it so doggedly. It brings out something in Yaz, but like, I think they bring out a lot of the worst qualities in each other a lot of the time, frankly, but I'm also not qualified to speak on this as we've discovered time and time again.

54:54Jo:But it does make me wonder on the other side of it is like, this is when we finally see Harper drawing the line with Yaz. And she's like, oh, whoa, shit, no. Like you had an underage, what's going on? And what does that create in Harper moving into the next season? Like, is she going to see it?

55:10Rob:I'm fascinated by this idea of, like, does Yasmin want someone to stop her here? Or does she, you know, because she's offered the hand, right? So, like, Harper offers it to her. Like, in bringing someone who can see you so well and know you so well, I feel like oftentimes people, when they're in, like, a self-destructive spiral, they bring that person in because they want someone to tell them no and to tell them to stop. but Harper does that and Yaz does not take the proffered hand at least in in the way in in the more meaningful way that that Harper is offering it here I think that's interesting and and then to like wrap up to think about season five I just want to read you a couple quotes that Mickey and Conrad gave to this this great GQ uh interview that they did in talking about season five they said I feel like the show can't get any smaller because a smaller thing would be a backwards thing so it feels like if anything we just needs to grow until it tumbles under its own wait.

56:02Rob:And then they said, talking about Harper and Yaz, by the time they get to the end of season five, we want the image, what they become in season five to be so stark versus season one. And as they ascend and descend and go deeper into the rabbit hole of whatever they're chasing, Yasmin and Harper can provide a kind of baseline litmus test for each other. Where are we? Who are we? Because they know each other because they've been within the same system. So in a way there's a kind of weird spiritual checking in that they're kind of bound to do because they're each other's sort of perverted mirror.

56:32Rob:So thinking about that, thinking about the Yaz Harper perverted mirror, thinking about the like clearly deeper into the political realm that the show seems to want to go, seeding Edward Holdcroft's character, Sebastian, into like what we all feel like we agree is probably going to be like a main character in the final season. Like what do you want from industry's final season? And what are you expecting, Rob Mooney?

56:58Jodi:I want a version of what we got this season and we saw that industry can do so well which is introduce us to whole new corners and whole new characters that we're not as familiar with and make them feel like they're a part of the world of the show because all of this shit is connected on like a deep and fundamental level and so yeah we're seeding characters here but I'm sure we're going to get entirely new political operators or Russian operatives or kind of whoever it is that we end up meeting in season five and that is why I love this show and I think part of some of the things that I'm bumping on in this finale in this season are outgrowths of the ambition of what industry is trying to be like it is trying to it is a show that loves to reinvent itself that it grows so much so fast and demands transformation and like not every transformation is going to work for every single viewer and there's something in this season that didn't work for me but I love what it reaches for and I I'm in particular charmed by the idea of a show that never rests on its laurels that never says like oh we can just go back to the formula that wants that comparison point for Yas and Harper of look how dramatically different these people are from when you met them.

58:03Jodi:And Lord knows where they're going to be at the end of season five. And that is what I love about industry.

58:09Rob:Jodi.

58:10Jo:Yeah, I think I just want to see those expansions of the world and those bringing in of like new industries and new infrastructures that create this sort of like shadowy existence of some of these characters. I just want them to makes sense for Harper and Yaz. And I, because these are, these are, are, these are our people. And I can't believe how much I've thought about America's Next Top Model while watching this season, but it came up again this season, this, this episode when Harper, um, you know, comes back from the horrible party and, and tells Quabana, I feel like all the people I thought were constants in my life have all become something that I didn't know they were or disappeared altogether.

58:52Jo:And we've talked about this sort of like that, that, that the original industry poster is like one of those ANTM graphics where the people filter out. And I think what I thought of is those people were dying or moving, but they're kind of people dropping out of Harper's life as she's sort of really more stays the path of finance, you know, like she really has not gone out into these other worlds. And I don't necessarily want her to, but I think in Yasmin, especially by the end of this season, we have really seen, it's made sense to bring in these other worlds because of how they have affected Yasmin's character.

59:30Jo:And even like within this season, we saw her go from like looking around and being horrified by the Hitler art in the room she was staying in to getting on board with Sebastian, this politician, to literally seating Harper next to Nazis. Like we've seen these things make sense. I want to see them make sense for Harper because I think while they haven't, Harper's ultimately taken a backseat, you know? Like she has been a bit of an NPC and I think we are past the point of that being able to be her character of like this sort of deadness being able to be her character. It's like, we got to lean in or out.

1:00:05Jo:I thought it was interesting that

1:00:06Rob:talking about like breakup scenes or whatever, him coming in and being like, I kissed someone, I don't feel bad about it, blah, blah, while she's like spiraling out from the actual heartbreak of Yasmin. And she's like, I don't really care about, he's like, this is a big, let's have a who are we to each other conversation. While like, no, Makita is like playing in her head about Yasmin in the background. But yeah, I think Harper being, you know, Makita and Conrad described her as sort of like a final girl at a horror movie inside of this episode, right? When she finds herself at this dinner table.

1:00:41Rob:and so I think her really being the center of the final season feels really important to me as well like she took like a real hard step back in season three and she was just like more present this season but I would just like like her to be re-centralized entirely in the final season yeah last Mad Men comp I'm gonna make as we wrap up here we get we get Sweet Pea and Kwabana and Harper clearly a season five finale Mad Men comp when they're in the empty like office space thinking about their future there but then we also get this like the stewardess come in the same episode that season five finale mad men this woman comes up to don draper at the bar and she's like are you alone which is like how the episode ends and we get this like you know are we done sort of moment here at the end of the episode which also made me think rob don't shake your head which also made me think did we have to Do we have to do or are we done?

1:01:36Rob:It reminded me of that episode of Angel when like Doyle's leaving. He's like, is that it? Am I done? So I was thinking about Angel, but I was thinking about Mad Men. And I agree that it's very on the nose. Like it's a very...

1:01:50Jodi:It's tough.

1:01:51Rob:It's the fact that she says it like three times.

1:01:54Jodi:She's like, are you finished? No, your drink. No, are you done? Are you sure you're done? Like with this season metaphorically and maybe the show?

1:02:00Jo:on the uptake with emotions, Rob. I'm going to say...

1:02:03Jodi:It's not a Harper problem. It worked for me.

1:02:05Jo:It worked.

1:02:06Rob:I didn't mind it. I didn't mind it. It's very like walking around the deserted floor of Pure Point at the end of season three. This is like how they like the end of season. It's true. I was into it. All right. We are pretty much out of time. Joni, any last things you want to say about this season of television?

1:02:22Jo:I can't believe this is the end. It cruised by on a very bumpy ship, on a very bumpy cruise. This went so quickly. As always at the end of an industry season, I'm just sad to not be talking about it anymore. It's like for any of its faults, it's so good to have a show that you just really want to talk about, you know, like that requires the further conversation. And I think that I think that season four really did that. And, you know, I don't want to hit the like, are you finished? Are you done here for Rob? But it's nice to know it really is. I like going into season five, like knowing that's the end.

1:03:00Jo:And, you know, I like, I can't wait.

1:03:03Rob:I can't wait to see what they're going to do. I love when people know that they're done with the show and they just throw everything at the wall. Rob, anything else you want to say about industry before we go?

1:03:12Jodi:Just to echo Jodi's thoughts, I mean, an incredibly fun season to talk about ups and downs. And Jodi, thank you for sharing your beat with us. We're encroaching on your trust.

1:03:20Jo:I was going to say, thanks for letting us. You know, it's so great to be the one in the power position here and to have you guys here. I loved sharing it with you I loved this show please have me back I'll come back for anything

1:03:37Jodi:Oh no, have us back, Jodi

1:03:39Jo:I'm very Yasmin in that way We finally figured it out I am the Yasmin of this podcast Is this the episode where you wanted to declare that?

1:03:49Rob:I take it back Thanks to Devin Rinaldo for their work on this entire season of the podcast and Rob and I will be back to talk about The Pit and Jodi hopefully we'll see you soon and bye.

1:04:14Jodi:Thought sweet green was just salads? Think again. There's a new way to do sweet green. Wrapped and ready. These handheld wraps pack bold flavor and 40 plus grams of protein into something hearty, satisfying and built for life on the go. From craveable sauces to satisfying textures, they're designed to keep you going without slowing you down. So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at participating locations only.

1:04:56Jo:and templates that actually look good. 4K quality. No surprise fees. No copyright drama. Just drag, drop, done. Go to storyblocks.com slash Spotify and make your life easier.