‘Industry’ S4E4: Daddy, Drugs, and Drama

27:45And it's, you know, direct connection to Tinder gives them more of an opportunity to do that. But it's, it's seeming really unlikely that they're going to succeed there. I continue to have this like very weird hope. I know it is weird. For, I know, for a Yaz and Harper alliance. It's based on the show. The look they exchanged. Yeah. When Jim in his final days was there kind of grilling Whitney. Yep. And Whitney is saying some shit. And Yaz is realizing what a house of cards she has hooked herself up to. And Harper's looking at her like, do you see what you've gotten yourself into? and the way in which Henry's entire presentation, which by the way, Kit Harington told Katie Baker, quote, you get the feeling there's a whole storyline which you never see where he's sort of in therapy talking about all of this.

28:48Because like Henry's just commenting with a therapy doc constantly. Oh yeah. I deeply relate. I love that for him. But he gets up there and he just like, he's like, basically I am tender. My failures and my honor and my intentions are what tender is. And I am now selling tender to you based on who I am. And Whitney is certainly happy to set up Henry and Yaz for the fall here, right? He's like, at the very end of the episode, he's like, us three, ride or die. We live and die together, right? Well, he says we ride together, we die together. Right. Dot, dot, dot, bad boys for life. But also you guys die and I don't is probably what he's hoping he's set up here.

29:28Certainly. And there's something about, yes there is my dumb dumb optimism that harper and yaz might work together it's all i ever want but also there's this question of like who gets to win in stories like this is it is it an american striver like whitney or is it the people who are deeply insulated by their money and privilege like yes and henry this is like very much in a demented way he's not nearly as romantic as Gatsby, a Gatsby versus Daisy and Tom sort of thing where it's just sort of like you've got Whitney in here saying shit to Henry about like we are worth more than our than our origins.

30:10I'm badly paraphrasing. Right. But like a very Gatsby-esque like I'm better than where I was born. And I want to prove that to everyone. Jonah talking about the way in which his entire self-worth, Whitney's entire self-worth would rise and fall based on the stock valuation of tender, right? So he's got like everything riding on this. He's just like green light Gatsby-ing his way into a new life, trying to put these other people on the hook. But I just don't think that Tom and Daisies of the world like ever are held responsible for things when they go wrong. But I know we're not reading F. Scott Fitzgerald.

30:46We're watching Industry. And so this could be a completely different story we're, you know, ingesting here. But what do

31:15See you next time.

31:23I mean, we're still chasing the blinking green light off in the distance one way or another, Joe. I wish I could share your optimism about Yaz and Harper in particular. I think my read on that scene, though, was fundamentally different. I read that much more as like, if you'll pardon the detour into the world of sports I don't even watch, like the weigh-in for boxers when they show up and sort of face off in anticipation of the fight. This felt like more setting them up on opposite sides of the collision that we all know is coming. and I don't think the way out of that collision is going to be they find some side door to work together in part because I personally would love to find the joy in my life and my heart that Yaz shows in this episode at just the mere suggestion that Harper might have fucked up.

32:07Like the absolute smile that erupts on her face from Whitney. I just don't think that she wants that at this point. Okay, I want to hear what Jodi thinks, but I just want to say that like there was a moment in the meeting with the Norton Publishing Group, right? where she's pitching them this story. Whitney's on the speakerphone. Robin comes in and tries to talk for him. And he's like, don't talk for me. Very scary. But when Whitney comes in with a, yeah, I have photographs, didn't Yaz look a little like, I didn't know I was going to burn Harper this badly. I walked in here without all of the information.

32:43What do you think, Jodi? And kind of what she said. Yeah, I myself am a romantic like Joanna who roots for female friendships. And just really hoping that this one can still somehow make it out alive. But I almost found it kind when, not kind, but when Yasmin, I think, is presented with the idea of the photos and what might be going on. And she says that Harper is probably being spurred on by her former boss and explains them as a poisonous double act, as though that could not also explain them. Harper and Yaz or almost everyone on the show, but that she knows that's Harper. Like she knows that's Harper, you know, and Eric is being spurred on by her and really trying in some, you know, fucked up father way to tether her to the ground.

33:37But there is this instinct that is ongoing, I think, in Yaz and Harper to protect one another. But the intentions of that protection are always only within themselves. They have this way of being like, I just want what's best for you. I know what's best for you. And they can't allow the other person to be a whole person. They can kind of only see the best in them or only see the worst in them. And And for me, like the most meaningful line and sort of interaction in this episode that really brought it all together for me was that interaction between Henry and Whitney before he goes on stage to give the speech.

34:31And it's ultimately Whitney who inspires Henry in the way that Yasmin has been so eager to. Yep. Because Whitney sees Henry. He sees that Henry actually wants to be appreciated for the things that he does feel confident in, that he feels confident are true of himself, which are his upbringing, which are his name. And that's what Whitney sees in him. He says, I don't know what it is, man, but I look at someone like you and I believe you. And that's kind of messed up, but it's why we're here. And in explaining the app, it's so funny. every time they like when when when Henry gives this big speech and he's like, and that's why we're leveraging a whatever.

35:16It's still an app, you know, it's still just an app. But when Whitney explains to Henry that there that he needs to give total transparency, which is also what the app is offering. And he says you're giving people the dignity of being able to choose for themselves, which is what Whitney is offering. But what he's really offering is manipulation. When you are manipulating someone, you are giving them the idea that you are giving them the dignity to choose for themselves. And what you are taking away from them is their dignity. Master, like Whitney, just genuinely master manipulator, like really impressive.

35:58watching him actively steal Henry out from under Yaz inside of this episode. And in the same episode, hearing from Jonah, the sort of like heartbreak that Jonah felt of like, I loved him. Like, you know, and there is this like thread of Whitney's queerness that we should have probably been perhaps alerted to with our email address from the beginning. But, you know, like Jonah is dropping some coded language here. we get the very close proximity in which he and Henry say, like when Yaz walks in with them nearly kissing a distance apart. Whitney has his hands on Henry's arms and he snaps them down like, oh no, I've been caught manipulating someone else's husband.

36:43Manipulating the manipulator's husband specifically. It's a real showdown. But I love the comp between you know, Ken Harrington, our short king, like Yaz is towering over him in episode three and she just sort of like laughs. She's like, it's just the shoes or whatever. When Whitney comes super close to him and is like also a little bit towering over him. And in that same exact exchange that Jody was just highlighting, he mentions fascism and he says, you are more and I am less, even though I'm literally standing inches above you right now. I look up to you. You are more. I am less like while towering over him.

37:15And that's just a better understanding of Henry's vulnerabilities than Yaz has. He's just better at this control game than Yaz is and, um, and better at controlling Yaz. And Yaz is getting a slight sense of it. I think inside of this episode, Henry has no fucking clue and is just like, you know, absolute putty in, in Whitney's hands. And it's fascinating to watch, honestly. That, that scene, um, not the one in the sort of green room before the speech, but in the final scene between Henry and Whitney, uh, where they're in the office and he's towering over him, as a studier of cults, it felt so cult leader-like that this was an unusually charismatic, this is an unusually charismatic man who doesn't have all of the means or the background to get precisely where he wants but what he has is the power to romance people, to manipulate them, to move them around and he's like, you know, the the most powerful person in a cult other than the leader is always the number three.

38:23But the person who feels like they're most powerful is the number two. But that's just the person who's been most romanced. And that's Henry. Like he is creating his number two there. Oh, and Yasmin is going to be a terrific number three to, you know, take the fall forever. Why do I feel like in the toxic cult of this podcast, I am the powerless number two, as the two of you really run this show, you know, in the toxic triple act that we have created. We need the special, the very special essence about you. Wow. We need that from you. Real time. Real time. This is incredible to see. If only I could tower over you.

39:02And anything you want to say about Jonah specifically, Rob, like in terms of Jonah's scene here with Sweet Pea or anything that he specifically says before he gives over, you know, a bunch of documents to Sweet Pea with one mere phone call. What do you think? I mean, yet another way that someone is being manipulated, but he feels it feels like his eyes are open. Despite the fact that he is under the influence, that he's too loaded for riddles. Like he knows exactly what's happening and he doesn't care because Sweet Pea knows just what to appeal to. And it's that sweet, sweet sense of revenge. Because what is what could possibly be more powerful than that?

39:34He's also hammered. Yes. And mid lap dance, you know, like he is pliable in a lot of different respects. And I think Sweet Pea does a great job of like walking a line and being just upfront enough. And like, I mean, she's pretty straight with him when she gets him on the phone, ultimately, about what they're after. But also kind of massaging the truth a little bit. I want to give the line delivery of the episode to Sweet Pea when she goes, oh, he's replying. Like about Jonah. Yeah. Very, very good shit. Such a great line reading. Because like for a minute, I was just kind of like, oh, she's talking to Jonah.

40:07And then I was like, oh, she's talking to Jonah through only. Yeah, exactly. Now I and I that that that comp for sort of sex work and and the the relationship and what's understood there and what's not understood. And it makes sense that that is almost the most honest form of communication that we get is between those two people where one knows that they're being manipulated and is playing into it. And therefore, is that really manipulation? I don't know. Well, and Sweet Pea in that capacity is doing the least manipulation via sex and via physical intimacy of almost anybody on the show, to be frank.

40:49And she also says it. She's out front with it. She's like, this is the job. Who would you say is doing the most? I mean, I think Whitney in the implication that we were just talking about, just like the classic like little bicep touch, all of that stuff definitely is a part of it. Classic bicep touch. Classic bicep touch move. Textbook. But I think this is where I find myself wondering, Haley has a game and Whitney has a game and how much are they the same game is something I was left with in watching this episode. To what extent are their motivations or actions intertwined and is what Haley is going after and what she's kind of, the way she's spun Yaz about in particular, is that an extension of her working with Whitney in some way?

41:31Well, and how much does Whitney know when he says, Haley's supposed to split the load with Henry, so let her take half the load off you. There's two options here. Okay. One is the most obvious, which is that Haley has told him. And like the look she, I mean, like I would not be surprised at all. Absolutely not surprised at all if she did. The other option is that there's like next level levels of surveillance on all of these people that Whitney has access to. You know what I mean? Even in the Hitler room? We heard squelching. He might've heard the squelching. You know what I mean? I guess that's a fair point.

42:01We might've all squelched together. Yeah. Sure. Let's talk about Haley. Why the hell not? Can I give you a Kiernan Shipka quote that she gave our pal Katie Baker, right? Please. Yes. The most fun scenes to watch back to back, Shipka said. The scene in the FinTech conference where I'm like a scared little deer in headlights talking to Yasmin about how uncomfortable I am, what we did, and I'm appearing to be so naive and innocent and conflicted and torture. And the elevator scene where you go, oh my God, girl is wicked. and she's psycho in the best way possible. She's absolutely deranged. Not to like re-hammer a point, but I do just want to like possibly enter this scene between Yaz and Hayley in the elevator, the thank you mommy, cheek flash, all of that into the pantheon of like Mad Men elevator scenes.

42:51Like Mad Men loves an elevator scene. It's not great, Bob. I don't think about you at all. I want to burn this place down. Like all these iconic moments happen in the elevators in Mad Men. And here we've got Kiernan Shipka forever emblazoned in my mind and my heart for her performance in that scene in particular. I also want to shout out this very odd choice they had to have an American actress said, you really raped me. You really raped me is such a Britishism. Sounds very odd coming from an American and sounds so close to you really raped me that I saw a lot of people were confused by it. So I thought that was a really, I don't know how intentional that choice was, but I was like, that was a strong moment.

43:35Jodi, your thoughts on The Elevator? I mean, yeah, I had the same thought about the word choice. And in a show like Industry, you kind of feel like it has to be intentional. And I think we saw that with Harper early on that she had certain Britishisms that she'd already picked up. And it's like, you just have to say hospital, not the hospital there. Everyone will laugh at you. So it makes enough sense that she, that she would say it. But I do think that the similarity to the word rape, like maybe not on Haley's level, but on the writing level has to be there. I, there is something, I should probably dip a little deeper on this with the therapist, but there is something to me about when Yaz gets her comeuppance that I find so delicious, even when it's someone else doing something terrible, even when it's like, there there's just there's something about Yaz that she's um she's discovered so many things that she's good at and positively not one thing that she's great at and every time she learns that she's on the back foot I just like I in such the worst it's like the worst instinct in me I love it because she always it is her privilege she always becomes convinced that she got a home run when she started on third.

44:58It happens constantly. And so like to see her realize in real time that she is dealing with someone who is much more capable of doing what she thinks it is she's doing. And she's really realizing that about Whitney, but I think like on a slower level about Whitney because she also still kind of wants, she wants his power. She wants those things. To realize it about Haley and then for Haley to just literally taunt her. I mean, like, it is sexual, sure, but, like, I mean, she moons her, you know? Like, she taunts her and says, thank you, Mommy. I loved it. And I loved it as an elevator scene. Like, I loved Yaz looking straight forward the whole time and watching that look come over her face.

45:44Yeah, there's, like, equal parts Mad Men-type elevator scene and, like, describing the qualities of the Joker and the Dark Knight in this and like Yaz has gotten into business with someone she fundamentally does not understand who might just want to watch the world burn ultimately. I find myself with these two, Jodi, you said that it appeals to kind of the worst parts of you to see Yaz have her comeuppance. I don't even know that I agree with that because I think part of the reason that scene works and is so satisfying is because it's precipitated by the scene you talked about, Joe, or that Kieran and Shipka talked about where you see Yaz almost go like full dark side.

46:20Try magnesium for anxiety. The trimagnesium, like, you know, appealing to her. You have to protect your agency from this douchebag reporter, like shifting all the blame and attention away from all of the like, at best line walking at worst, clearly over the line bullshit that she has done with Haley to this point. The price is the price of his actions is your trauma. You can't let him take away your agency as well. Well, she is actively trying to take away her agency. She's doing it. The reveal that maybe she hasn't taken away any agency is that is delicious. I do think there's something there is something for me that's like, hmm, do I need to look inward on this?

47:03Because Yaz is a woman. And so, like, when I see Yaz getting her come up and I'm like, oh, am I also doing a Yaz? Like, am I loving seeing this woman's down bulb? Jenny's a girl's girl. Always and forever. Even when those girls are Yaz and Harper, you know, I try. wrongs on this podcast. We always support them. Oh, absolutely. And there are so few women's rights to support on industry that we simply must support their wrongs. It's true. And yet it's delicious. See, I feel like I have no choice under these circumstances but to support the toxic male friendship that's developing between Henry and Whitney as well, you know?

47:39Of course. Representation matters, Raul. Representation does matter. But again, I think part of the reason that scene works, part of the reason all of the comeuppances for these characters work, but for Yaz in particular because she is so smug is like her trying to flex in episode three and thinking she is sitting on her throne calling the shots only to find out that she has in fact sat herself in the cuck chair is just a very satisfying turn of plot for any character to be involved. Also the way she like is so gleefully participates in Robin getting fired when Robin's like, hey, I'm qualified for this job and who the fuck are you exactly?

48:16Precisely when did Yaz get so into PR? Right. Right when she discovered shoulder pads. I was like, calm. Yeah. What's happening? An absolute calm screen. I do. I want to know one other thing on the on the Haley front. And I was I was thinking about it because, you know, we talked about Yaz's shoulder pads and I. Fashion has always played a part in this show. I feel like in this season, especially like they've they're they're out of pure point. And so they're able to really let it loose. and Yaz has clearly dialed her fashion down, like her sort of, you know, more avant-garde fashion down now that she's back in this office.

48:57I was so stunned by the Haley Cheeks reveal because she's wearing such a terrible outfit. Like she's wearing a pretty, it is a short skirt, but it's sort of a dowdy skirt. She's wearing like this long-waisted and high necked vest that actually, I noticed that when she flips her skirt up, it completely messes up her outfit. Like her vest, her vest goes all askew. Like it's not an outfit that is made to have that under it. And like that made it, it would make, it made it all the more shocking to me. And I know it would make it all the more shocking to Yaz who saw that outfit and said, ew. Like she, you know, she would have not liked that outfit and she would have definitely not expected what was under it or what was coming.

49:46And I think to go back to the sort of like, we support women, girls, girl, Yaz dressing up her like absolute disgusting manipulation inside of like, I'm a girl, I'm promoting you. I tell you, you can have the night off, you know, in Vienna when we go there. Like I can, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like, or sorry, they were in Austria. We'll talk about Vienna in a second. But like, it's so vile. And like I have defended horrible women across so many HBO properties and I will probably still defend Yaz when the time comes. But but yeah, I was very satisfied by Haley turning the tables on her here.

50:25And I love this. I think I think Charlie Heaton's really good in this episode, like sort of burying the ghost of Jonathan Byers. And I think Karen Shipka does a great job in these last couple of episodes burying both Sabrina and and Sally Draper, you know, six feet under. So I love the new folks. I mean, Max Mangella too. Like obviously he's been great the whole way through, but this episode I was like, you know, wow, he can really play this sort of, you know, charming, seductive character. That is one of the great, you know, Rob, you were talking about the like season four is really working for you.

51:00That is one of its greatest successes is how seamlessly it has brought these new characters in. Yeah. And I think with all these manipulations And that's clearly always been a part of industry, like the ways in which these characters are revving each other up or tearing each other down or trying to point them in directions that would be beneficial to them personally, baked into the DNA of the show. But with everything happening right now and so many sides playing each other, even within the same companies, it's turned into the kind of show where I want to go back and I want to isolate. Like, what was the exact moment when Haley realized that Yaz was playable for her?

51:33Right. Like, was it literally from the first time they met in the hallway of, you know, the manor, basically, as Haley kind of very performatively was taking a snooze on a day bed? Like, was that part of the play from the jump? Was it already kind of like in the works at that point? Or was it something she calculated from the line testing she did and suggesting she jump into Yaz's bed in the first place? I think the moment it cemented for her, or at least she was showing her hand a bit, is when she tells Yaz, you know, Whitney is my boss. Whitney and Henry are my bosses. I can't hear that from you.

52:07Because she could have just, she could have just not taken the night off. She could have taken it. She could have said nothing, but she does tip a little bit like, I'm not yours. And I think she does it not to show Yasmin that she's more in charge of this, but to show you, show her, you have to make me yours more so that then she gets even more power over it. Right. I love that interpretation. I also think it's so crucial to think about the moment that she like decided to tell Yaz about Jim. Like for sure that that feels like a play as well. Absolutely. Definitely. All right. From thank you, mommy to all the disgusting poppy daddy stuff that's happening with Rishi and his partner in the car.

52:48A lot of I did think you were about to read an email from. No, no, no, no. Just like thank you, mommy. and thank you. And then the daddy stuff that he requires from this girl in the car is like, if we had any questions about the father-daughter, Eric Harper stuff and how like disgustingly mixed up in psychosexual power dynamics it is, this is so clear inside of this thank you mommy and like daddy stuff we get here. But I think that like Rishi, Rishi and this young woman in the car and then Rishi and his ex-mother-in-law and this idea that like his existence is being sort of erased from his, like whitewashed out of his son, right?

53:33His son is now not going to have his name at all. He's being deleted here. And it's an interesting parallel. We're going to get to like two bad dads doing a lot of cocaine together, but like interesting parallel to Jim's, the mother of Jim's child beginning of the episode is like nobody knows you exist. No. Right? and then Rishi gets deleted here. I love that line and I wanted it said to every single character. Right? Yeah. I was like, I love this woman who we know nothing about who is a one night stand coming in and just telling someone, no one knows who you are. And I would like it said to every person on the show.

54:10Right. I'm also ready to read her story about modern dating vis-a-vis numbers, vis-a-vis Kierkegaard. Like I'm on the hook for that. No, no, I was like, I'm not bringing Kierkegaard into it. Jim did. Jim made it about Kierkegaard. But thematically, it's not about Kierkegaard. I was a little bit like, how does plagiarism work? Because this is a beat that I'm kind of on too. And I wrote about dating and numbers and height somewhat recently. And I was like, she's, I'm listening. Do you know about Bonnie Blue, this UK OnlyFans person? Do you want to share with the class, Jodie Walker? I mean, I just know about her to the extent that, and I would somewhat separate that from the transactional state of app dating.

54:50But yes, that she, I believe, has done a few specials where she has slept with an astronomical number of men. I'm not sure the heights that it's reached. She tried to break the world record for a number of men slept with within a day and got to like, yeah, and got to over a thousand. It was like a thousand one hundred and something or whatever. And then another woman like beat her record, like, you know, within like she broke her record and then she broke her record or something. like that. But anyway, this is like a very well-known UK OnlyFans personality and Jim's one-night stand, who is now a single parent, I guess.

55:32But wasn't she already? Is sort of writing about this transactional nature. And this is how we get half of the episode title, right? A Thousand Youths is like about Bonnie Blue and then N1 Marilyn is sort of Jim's Cokie rant that he has at the end of this episode. So this idea of like, which Jodi brought up earlier about this idea of transactional nature of sex and how it relates to all of this capitalist pursuit of power and securing of legacy, if you prefer, et cetera, et cetera. That's what it's all about. And those are the bookends of this episode. Coked Up Jim, super weird guy. I don't particularly want to hang out with him.

56:15I certainly don't agree with everything he's saying, but like the end points he starts to reach for. Jim had some good points. Rob Mahoney would like to state on this podcast. A couple good points from Jim. Not what I'm saying. Not what I'm saying. The gestures he makes at the volume and scale and dissociation of modern life. Basically this idea of like, once you can have an infinite amount of the thing you think you want, what does literally anything mean anymore? I do find some resonance in that idea. And I do find some resonance in that idea as it applies to all of these characters and their aspirations for power and their aspirations for a little more money or a little more control.

56:51And we got an email that I thought was really interesting from Isaiah, who was asking specifically about Rishi. This is a quote from his email. He said, Rishi's fallen so far from his initial post at PeerPoint, but I'm not convinced he's materially different from other characters. Both Harper and Yaz also regularly make choices that would land them in jail. is Rishi just unlucky or is there a better reason for his incessant failure? And I think like all of these people are addicts in different ways and they're chasing after different things and they make compromises all the time. I don't know how the two of you feel about this, but to me, it's like a pretty faint line between Rishi stumbling down the path that leads to like worse and worse and worse and worse outcomes.

57:31And ultimately like the kinds of endeavors that Harper or Yaz or Eric are these other characters. Like Eric is a great example. Like he is an inch away from losing basically his life savings. And once that happens, how, how short is the distance between him and Rishi? Well, yeah. Rishi exists as this thing that we love to see in fiction, which is like there before the grace. Like, you know, this is the cautionary tale of like how, how badly things can spin, uh, how far down the rabbit hole one can go, how far you can fling yourself off a balcony and still not like be put out of your misery and still be like having to crawl your way forward in this life.

58:06But I think that I was thinking about that in terms of Jim at the beginning of this episode when he's like popping Ritalin, I think, and, you know, just trying to get through a night of writing. Going down Wikipedia rabbit holes. Who could recognize this? And his losing time is so close to what we saw with Henry and like his drug trips and losing time. But like there's just this great cushion around Henry that does not exist around someone like Jim. And so like Henry ends that ill-advised drug binge losing time with like a cushy new job. And like, you know, all the stars aligning for him. And Jim winds up dead from a laced batch of coke.

58:51And so once again, the show is just telling us like there are different opportunities, obviously, for different people. That's like a no-does statement. But just like inside of this question you're asking, I think Eric will be okay. because he's been rich enough. I think he's reached a height of richness where you're golfing on the same course as Donald Trump. Sure. But like, there is no like bottoming out for an Eric anymore. Yeah, he says it's his daughter's inheritance, but it's not bankrupting him per se. I mean, I think we know it as severance, was it? Pierpoint was more than that. So, but I think, yeah, I mean, Joanna, you said it.

59:36cushion was sort of precisely the word that I was thinking. And Rishi does literally fling himself off of a balcony with no cushioning. He is a person of color. He is a person of color in the UK class system. And, you know, I think it's of note that the sort of like three main people of color that we followed are Eric Harper and Rishi. Eric and Harper are Americans. It takes some of that out of there, out of the story that we get with Rishi as he falls and falls and falls with no safety nets. I do also think that he's despicable. Oh, yeah. Like, I was, I mean, this, this, and it's, the more those safety nets are taken away from him, I think the more the show opens your eyes to that.

1:00:27It's like, we're obviously dealing with all despicable people. And the, you know, question at hand from Joanna was kind of, is he any worse? Is he any less lucky? And the answer is probably no. But I think even for us as viewers, as we see wealth stripped away, as we see privilege stripped away, as we see Rolex's pond and Knuckles bloodied, that also makes it harder as the viewer to interpret him as good or redeemable as much as purely bad. And like watching him film that woman in the car and make her call him down. I mean, it's just, it's disgusting. And like, there are those lingering sort of residual feelings from earlier seasons of like, maybe this man can be redeemed and you don't want to see himself break his ankles.

1:01:17Goodness, did I not want to see that? But I'm also tired of him. I am tired of his bullshit, frankly. I think it's very easy to read him jumping off of a balcony and breaking his ankles in the aforementioned fashion as rock bottom for Rishi. But I think both of you have circled it, which there really is just nothing more cursed than having to interrupt your own videoing of your sexcapades in which you're asking this woman to call you daddy so she can get another bump because the mother-in-law of the wife that you got killed is calling you to basically inform you in so many ways that you're never gonna see your son again, at least in any unsupervised fashion.

1:01:57Like that's about as bad as it gets. What's worse, Jodi, for a man than having your legacy erased? Well, I was going to say, Rob, that the worst thing actually to happen is to watch someone feel sorry for themselves in that scenario. Which is what we're watching Rishi do. It's also what we're watching, I mean, to a slightly lesser extent, like watching Jonah, you know, feel like the victim when he's like in a strip club in the middle of the day, rich and drunk. and disgusted, you know, like it is a show about watching people feel sorry for themselves, knowing what they've done. I want to, for a second, I regret to inform you, I have to talk about Alfred Hitchcock for a second.

1:02:46And I have to say that like, when I talk about prestige television, one of my favorite things to talk about is Alfred, and I've said it a million times. So fast forward if you've heard me say it before, but Alfred Hitchcock had this thing he liked to talk about, which was suspense versus surprise. And the example that he would give is like, if you have a scene with two men talking in a room and all of a sudden the room blows up, that's surprise. If you have a scene with two men talking in a room and you show the bomb under the table ticking away and you keep cutting back and forth to the men and the bomb and the men and the bomb, then we at home are just like on the edge of our seat knowing something's coming and that he prefers suspense to surprise.

1:03:21So I will say when this shady dude shows up outside the pub, I'm like, the bomb starts ticking when he throws that, his like sachet of drugs on the table. I was like, there's the bomb. And it's just sitting there all through the Cokie rants. And I was like, I was like, Jim is not making it out of this episode of life. Like that felt very clear to me. Rishi was a question mark to me. Like I wasn't sure. But like Conrad called it Cokie nonsense. Like all the stuff that Jim was saying inside of this. Right. And he says, quote, but embedded in it is a bit, a little bit of a critique of certain aspects around commodification of personhood through capitalism and how everybody's identity is now monetizable.

1:03:59And so like, see, I'm not the only one who saw some truth in that. Rob is sitting here taking notes and he's like, this is a magnum opus. And to me, I'm like, it doesn't really matter what he's saying here because like what we're watching are the final, like horrible, desperate minutes of someone's life. And I like, Jim is also despicable, you know, to use Jody's very accurate word here. And so like my limits for empathy do exist. But also like, I don't know, he's being snuffed out by someone far more powerful because my interpretation of events is that this guy that they meet outside the club who's like, let me save you from this grifter.

1:04:39I myself, a guy hired to kill you. Yeah, a corporate assassin, presumably. You know, is hired, I have to assume by Whitney. to do this after Jim makes some very fine points, you know, in front of Amelia DeMille DeMorgan. He's like, you will not embarrass me in front of Chicken Shop Date. No. And, you know, cranks up the volume, cranks up the volume in order to either call in the noise complaint himself or whatever the case may be, leaves him there, hoping that Rishi will also take the lace drugs, but Rishi had his, because they were in Rishi's apartment, right? Because it's his stash of Coke in the bathroom that he finds.

1:05:16So which like, I think saves him from the fentanyl Coke. Um, save some quote unquote. Um, but that this is, this is, we just watched an assassination of a character and, um, I thought it was really, really well done. Like I really, really liked the end of this episode as like horrible as it was to watch. For sure. Jodi, what did you think? Oh yeah. Just, I mean, an excellent, excellent showcase and suspense because in addition to the bomb being thrown down on the table, we're also watching Rishi look between, you know, the volume being slowly turned up its own amount of suspense that ultimately leads to the police arriving and to an open window that he's thinking about throwing himself outside of.

1:05:54You get the sort of it's almost like a brief reprieve of him doing that from Jim taking the drugs and then the police come and then he does it. I mean, it is so like heart stopping over and over and over. The suspense is so high and it is it is the undercurrent of it all is Jim's Cokie rant, which Rob's awesome point said. And I guess so did I, because I wrote down the line. We built an interface with the world that gives us what we want, but not what we want to want. And it's this guy coked out thinking he's making a point and he is, but he's part of the point. You know, he's snorting drugs from Rishi, a drug dealer.

1:06:39Like we built all these interfaces or these interfaces were built for us and now we're a part of them and we don't know how to stop using them in order to see what we really want. And at some point, is there a difference? And at some point, is it all just a bomb on the table? There's this line that Whitney has in the first episode, right? He says, late capitalism is a carcinogen. It breeds a product for everything that you think you need. But I have the product people really want, right? Right. What person that says that would ever be the problem, you know? Yeah. Rob thinks Winnie also has some very fine points.

1:07:19What I really want is a frictionless, transparent access to the full suite of banking and investment products app. You know, that is what I really want when I wake up in the morning. I think I want that full suite. That's a means of uplift. Absolutely. Rob, what do you want to say about Jim's many fine points here at the end of his life? I think so in the real time watching this episode, I think I was less clear of whether the coke was laced or not, or whether basically of whether this mystery man's inclusion in this scene and like intrusion on their lives was to kill Jim specifically or simply to like discredit him by putting enough coke on the table, turning the volume up, presumably calling the police himself to call in the noise complaint and getting the fuck out of Dodge.

1:08:01and the overdose was just like maybe an unfortunate side effect of the pure volume that Jim has been putting up his nose. But as you lay it out, Joe, I think you're right. I think it just makes more sense that it's a very specific manipulation and more of a hit as opposed to just kind of taking Jim out of the picture. I feel like one snort and you're dead is like... But was it once? It seems like he's been snorting for hours. But like Rishi goes to the bathroom for a minute, you know, and when he comes back out. I mean, yeah, I agree that it, I did, I knew that guy was up to something and I just didn't totally know what it was.

1:08:36And the immediate death of Jim felt like a hit. I feel like the way the camera's like, this one's on me, boys, and drops the sashay. The dark blue sashay. Makes total sense. And we should say the reason any of these characters are in a room together, specifically this room at Rishi's place, is basically that it's implied, if not altogether confirmed, that Rishi has been like trying to dig into Jim's apartment, his flat, maybe taking his car keys to find more information either for himself or for Stern Tower. We don't really know in what capacity he's doing any of that. He also said he's been ghosted by Harper.

1:09:12So I would like to retry. I was like, when Harper said to Sweet Pea, you won't have to see Rishi again, like, and I was like, she's lying. Well, I'm sorry. It looks like Harper kept one, temporarily kept one promise by not returning some phone calls. calls from Rishi. I'm just going to give her one grain of credit for that, I guess. As soon as things got complicated, I just have zero doubt in my mind that Harper is returning that call. I agree, but it's moot now. Can I take you to Needle Drop Corner here? Please. I know at this point it seems like I'm just trying to date the music supervisor on this show, but I just want to let you know that Vienna from my Ultravox is genuinely one of my favorite songs of all time.

1:09:57has never been used lightly in a TV show or a movie before. I'm not, I don't think they're intentionally alluding to, you know, it's been used in The Americans, 13 Reasons Why, like Yellow Jackets twice. Like it's been used again and again. It's always used at a huge moment when like someone dies or something monumental is going on because this is huge, epic, like sweeping, romantic, there's a violin solo inside of this like new wave song sort of moment. But I love It's You Tier. They let almost the entire track play, which is like very unusual. And I just think it's like, I thought it was a really, really good pick here.

1:10:37Our pal Katie Baker identified something really fun and interesting about a different track that I completely missed, Forever Young, which plays at the very end when Rishi's on the ground, right? Also fabulous. is Alphaville, which is the name of the band that did that track, is the name of the Financial Times blog where the aforementioned financial journalist, Dan McCrum, first published his, quote, House of Wirecard series. Both the band and the website derived their names from the 1965 Jean-Luc Godard film, Alphaville, in which a secret agent named Lemmy Caution infiltrates the city of Alphaville to bring down its computer-ruled technocracy.

1:11:16Anyway, looking at the text in McCrum's very first Alphaville post, this is Katie's incredible recap. Please read her coverage. I couldn't help but notice the similarities to Dyker's article. So, like, basically Dan McCrum's first Alphaville post is, like, very textually similar to, like, the bit of Jim's article that we see in this show. And it's from a blog called Alphaville, which is the name of the band that plays at the very end of the episode. I mean, Katie Baker, ladies and gentlemen. I mean, that's incredible investigative work on its own. 10 out of 10, no notes. Any thoughts or feelings about, like we get one, two, three tracks here played at the end of the episode.

1:11:52Any thoughts or feelings about it? Well, quick detour on the financial journalism note. Oh, sure. I mean, just because we talked a little bit about Amelia de Moldenberg's appearance in this episode. And like, obviously the scrum is like a huge confrontation moment for Jim that ultimately might seal his fate. I'm just like always so fascinated by industry's relationship to financial media, tech media. You have Hannah Murphy of the FT cited specifically by name in this episode. They do this balance that I think is wise for any show or any movie to do, where it is 90 % to 95 % real people, real tech publications, real outlets, real banks.

1:12:31Then you're just shoehorning in the works of fiction to contextualize them. We talked about this a little bit last week with Deutsche Bank as well, but it was just overwhelming here as they're formulating their rollout strategy for tender about, oh, you know, we're going to hit this podcast. We're going to do the tech crunch event. Like it was just like, it was so specific in a way that I admire the way that mounts you in the world that the show wants to inhabit. Joni, anything you want to say about financial journalism or new wave music? I was just thinking as Rob was listing off everything like hits taken by Royal Bank of Scotland when Rishi makes fun of that guy's chalky pinstrap.

1:13:10Right. Another great fashion moment for the episode. That's just free advice, though. That comes that comes with the drugs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was forever without even all of that context. I was like, oh, huge hit with with doing Forever Young with the broken ankles. I they they know how to play out an episode. And I'm still I'm like, I'm struggling right now, like not to put my hands over my eyes, which is what I did when when the camera. because for a second you're like, oh, he lived. And also, you know, speaking of the suspension, when you see Rishi jumping, you can see water. The Thames is right there.

1:13:51So you're like, maybe. I know. I was like, maybe. Is he going to hit water? How does, how do physics work? And they work like that. They work like that if you jump. Can you be waterfront on this side of the building and this side of the building? Is it a wraparound? Is this a houseboat and I never knew what's going on? and it wasn't and I mean this is morbid but you're it's like oh no not the sweet relief of death in fact a worse thing this is what the actor told Kitty Baker quote you sort of see that very slight smirk on his face I think he is at ease with where he has landed and you I also wondered like oh he's not screaming has he taken enough drugs to like really not feel this horrific thing.

1:14:39My feet have been shattered. Wow. One can only hope. Jodi, welcome to the pit. Welcome to our waking nightmares watching body trauma on a weekly basis. You know I'm in the pit. You know I'm in the pit. Yeah, Jodi had the information on the Rooney connection to the pit before we did. It's absolutely true. So, you know. All right. That is it, I think, for this episode of Industry, unless you guys had anything else you wanted to mention. No. Thank you to everyone who works on this show, Devin Rinaldo. Dev popped in with a Marty Supreme reference, of course, for Forever Young in the chat. So, of course, we should shout out Marty Supreme.

1:15:15Thank you to Justin Sales for his work on this episode. Thank you to industry music supervisor Ollie White for just incredible, constant, impeccable work. And we'll be back for more coverage of DePitt later this week. We also have an, we should, We're trying to have an early drop of this podcast because the next episode of Industry itself is dropping early because of the Super Bowl. Ever heard of it? So that episode of Industry is dropping Friday. Our episode covering it should drop sometime thereafter. We will let you know when. But we will see you soon no matter what. Harpsichords drop on a gmail.com.

1:15:56Press gtv at spotify.com. if we got anything about, oh, I don't know, British politics, journalism, how much coke does it take so you don't feel your feet shattering or any other, you know, certainly not fashion. Jodi is an impeccable source in that I am confident about that. We, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I request more. Anyone who is also on the fashion beat of industry, please email at harpsichordstrap on a gmail.com. I just personally would love over the course. Fashion in and of itself. Oh, yes. Just a big, big ticket fashion. Over the course of the season, I would like to see the shoulder pads rise episode by episode as Yaz's esteem and projections in the workplace can only rise to compensate for - She's like Miss J on America's Next Top Model.

1:16:38Niche reference, but it grows and grows as the season goes on. I got you. All right. We will see you soon, hopefully in Accra. I'm hoping we're getting a flight there soon. And bye.

1:16:58you