‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 2: The Commander and the Grey Lady

12:07Jo:So, um, there used to be a little show on Bravo called ladies of London. And one of the ladies was a lady. I believe she was like the lady of sandwich and, uh, like her, Her was like the sandwich. Wow.

12:21Jodi:Phenomenal.

12:22Jo:I might be getting some of my details confused because this was years ago, but I did love that show. No, I accept it as incontrovertible truth.

12:29Jodi:Sure, of course.

12:29Jo:These are facts. You can't check it. It's not available on Bravo.com. And that was like a big storyline is that she married into like this, you know, what seemed like this nobility, this amazing family, but it was like this huge task to keep the family afloat and to keep like these properties afloat. and they were opening up the properties to touring, which was kind of shameful, but also necessary. There's a lot for Lady Muck to be juggling right now.

12:58Rob:Absolutely. Last but not least, and I thought it was an interesting bit of feedback that I saw around the old internets about this episode. I love this episode. This is actually, by some comfortable margin, my favorite episode of industry. And just because it has everything. thing. It has ghost dads, which I usually hate, but actually works really well in this episode and all this other stuff like that. I absolutely really loved this episode. I saw some complaints from people saying, hey, man, there were no deals done, no business done. And I'm like, absolutely there were. What show are you watching?

13:29Rob:Absolutely. These are the halls of power where some of the most important deals happen. They don't always happen on the trading floor. Sometimes they happen at Henry's absolutely shit show 40th birthday, you know. Sometimes they're sealed with

13:43Jodi:a mint. You know, there's different kinds of negotiations.

13:46Jo:I did. I did kind of have to chuckle at us trying so hard to figure out shorts last episode. Yeah. And then and then to be given this as our second episode, which was a nice break, given that everyone on the Internet was ultimately figuring out what shorts are through Katy Perry and her vinyls being a flop in a very viral tweet series.

14:11Jodi:I was told the monoculture was dead. And yet we were all learning about this together in unison. It was really a beautiful moment.

14:17Jo:Yeah. If you want to hear a full debrief of the Katy Perry vinyl tweet lore, you can tune into We're Obsessed over on the Ringer Dish feed where we gave it the full breakdown. Yet another podcast where I had to talk about shorting the market.

14:32Rob:Short selling was by far and away the most popular email subject that we got from our listeners because they were very eager to educate us. I think we did okay based on what they said. I think I understand it. We will continue to try to understand the money markets as we cover this show. But as I mentioned, I already, I loved this episode. Jodi, as someone who's covered the show sort of more in depth over the seasons and especially watched it transform so much, what did you think about this episode? How does it stack up to sort of a more expected episode of industry for you?

15:07Jo:When you said it was like your favorite episode by a large margin, I got so nervous to even have to think about my favorite episode of industry. And then to know, I think what I keep thinking about this episode is like, this is a generational episode of television. I just, I thought it was so impressive and it gave me, um, you know, there's like the popular saying like, oh, I've never had a unique thought in my life. That is simply not the case for Mickey and Conrad. Like I've never seen an episode of television like this to, to even have conceptually thought to like, take us through the suicidal ideation of, uh, you know, noble British man who just is like, was kind of a side character and is now the husband of one of our main characters and to like just give us that detour, I think is such a fascinating creative choice that I so appreciate in this show.

16:07Jo:I think it can't be my favorite episode because it is not it's not quintessential industry, except that it's quintessential solo episode of industry. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bottle episode, but it is very much in that way. like Rishi's episode, White Christmas, which was so intense, also so unlike anything I've ever seen, that I just like, I really appreciated sort of the courage to like do this, not just do this episode in the season, but do it as the second episode of the season when we've like barely established time and place. Like we don't know where we are. We don't know who we are, what we are, but we know these people and we really know Yasmin and to have that as the entree point into like this whole other world and to learn more about her through her extremely sad boy husband is, uh, that is quintessential industry.

17:12Jo:Sad boy is quintessential industry.

17:14Jodi:Without a single doubt. I think they play it really well, too, because there's a version of this episode. Any depression-heavy episode can just sort of languish. You're struggling sometimes when you're writing around that subject matter to find momentum. It never feels that way at all throughout this entire run. It feels weirdly propulsive for a guy who is mucking about, stroking his gun, trying to decide if he wants to commit suicide. They find a lot of action in what is ultimately a very interior-heavy episode. It's really brilliant. I'm totally with you, Jodi, in terms of like the focus of this sort of episode is quintessential industry.

17:49Jodi:I think it's something this show does better than almost any other one. I like when you think about the solo episodes of The Bear, for example, I found them like really frustrating the more they did them. And the more they did them, the more they felt like a ploy. This didn't feel that way at all. This felt like quality time spent with characters we're invested in and became more invested in. I think it's brilliant. I think it's like mean and sharp and also kind of soft in all the right places, to be honest with you. The one thing, and Joe, you mentioned this as something that worked for you, Ghost Dad.

18:20Jodi:Ghost Dad. Really, really took me out. I gotta say, like, it really bugged me.

18:24Rob:You know I hate Ghost. Like, Ghost Dad, like, everyone has a hard-on for Hamlet and they're always trying to do Ghost Dad and it really bothers me, especially when they're trying to fool you with Ghost Dad. They were, though. That tends to really bother me. I know, but, like, since I clocked it right from, like, here's a pro tip for folks. because I saw a lot of people were surprised by this. Here's a pro tip from those of us who lived through the shock and awe of seeing The Sixth Sense in the theater. Here's something I learned. If no one else is talking to a character and only one character is talking to them, it might be a ghost.

18:56Rob:And so just like be on the lookout for ghosts. Okay, Joe, when did you know ghost? Immediately, he comes out of nowhere. He's not in the room. He's not dressed like anyone else. He shows up. And then no one is like looking at Henry when they're like sort of jostling each other on the side of the table. So like, I just, I got roasted and fooled so hard by the sixth sense that I was like, they'll never get me again. So I'm always just like on high alert for Ghost Dad. Jodi, where do you feel like you figured out Ghost Dad?

19:25Jo:If any of the listeners would like to be comforted by not being quite as sharp and astute as Joe and Rob, that's why I'm here. And I would say, no, but because I was like, got it. When I got it, I was like, got it. I see what's happening here. Maybe or maybe he's real. I realized, oh, realized in full at the pub when he sort of insidiously whispers, polish his shoes. Yeah, shine your shoes, boy. Shine your shoes, boy. And he says that as sort of an instruction to Henry to attack the town's man, shine his shoes. I said, oh, that's Paul Bettany in a beautiful mind. Like that's actually, I didn't.

20:13Jo:And I want to be clear, I didn't clock dad. I said, that's Paul Bettany in a beautiful mind. And I just thought he was some sort of kind of like presence that this Henry has felt throughout his life only to then realize, oh, that's his dad. Yes. Which I, you know, clocked just a little bit later.

20:32Rob:Yeah, I feel like the other thing that calling him commander and not giving him a name. I was like, okay. Okay, so Rob, but you didn't like Ghost Dad. Tell me more about your feelings.

20:44Jodi:I think some of it's not even like, oh, it's so clear. You should have been onto it from the beginning. It's so obvious. I think for me, it was more like, this is totally needless. Like you don't need a ghost to tell us this man is haunted. You're already going to show us the flashback of child Henry watching his father go off to commit suicide. And so to me, it just felt so silly to make the episode in some ways about that moment, right? It felt like it was building and building to this reveal that wasn't silly to me because it was obvious, but silly because it was completely unnecessary.

21:16Jo:So I was a little bit like, maybe because I got on board for Ghost Dad and had kind of the, like a more traditional experience of figuring it out for myself, like didn't clock it right from the beginning. I felt like the flashbacks and like little boy Henry were a little bit the overkill. I agree with that. So maybe it's kind of like, you know, look at the mirror and take one accessory off before you leave the house. Like you can do one or the other.

21:43Rob:I feel like they drew out the reveal. Like once he's like, you know, he's like pulled down the turtleneck or whatever. And he's like, you're like, that's a ghost. And then we still got the flashback and all this sort of stuff like that. And I was wondering if it was like what Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were talking about in terms of making shows for Netflix where you have to sort of repeat things five times in case people are looking at their phones. So like in case people are watching in their industry and looking at their phones, don't do that. But in case they are, we're going to make it really, really clear.

22:10Rob:This is his dad. Do you get it yet? This is his dad.

22:12Jo:Which is interesting and maybe is what struck all of us as a little bit like left of center for the show because there's so little handholding in this show typically. I agree.

22:23Jodi:And this is ultimately a small part of the episode. Like I don't want to over-index on it because I love everything so much. It just like, I can't say it left a bad taste in my mouth after this week's episode, but like it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. I need something. I need closure.

22:38Rob:I think that, I think Jack Farthing, who played the commander, was like very good. And I think there was enough like weird sexual tension between the two of them that just like added this like really fun and funky dimension to Ghost Dad.

22:52Jo:I do think that's why my mind did not immediately go to Ghost Dad. When they were jostling around in the dining room, I was titillated.

23:00Jodi:You're just going to kiss. Kiss, kiss, kiss.

23:02Jo:And it really felt like they would. Like it really, it seemed, and you know, we'd been talking a lot about fraternity and like within, between Henry and Whitney and that is sort of a concept. And to have this very, what seemed like fraternal figure come in and soothe Henry with like this, these toxic male views and to assure him sort of that his legacy is important and he can pursue it however he wants and all you really need to do is live the lie that gains you the most. I was like, that makes sense. That's a person. That's not just a ghost dad. That's a person who I could imagine entering late into the party.

23:50I think another thing that I really liked about ghost dad and you're right Rob like we don't need to like spend the whole episode talking about him because there's so much more else to talk about but usually ghost dad is there to like help a character through something or to moralize or to improve

24:05Rob:or to boost or something like that and this is the demon on Henry's shoulder is his ghost dad and that's a little unusual and so I quite liked that yeah the like hey fuck you know fuck this woman who works in your house why not not. It'll feel good. The class difference feels great, doesn't it? You know, beat the shit out of this guy. No one will care. And actually they don't, you know, like all this other stuff. It's like everything he's saying is true and repulsive at the same time. And it's Henry's like worst angels sort of lingering around him this Christmas. So, yeah.

24:39Jodi:I saw that the Vulture recap compared this episode to A Christmas Carol, which is a story that Jodie and I just can't seem to escape somehow. He's popping up in every work of fiction this year.

24:48Jo:It's not as seasonal as you'd think.

24:49Jodi:Like, apparently not. But like, this is the dark mirror of it, right? Of being visited by a different kind of ghost that is tempting you into a different place. Whereas you have Yaz multiple times trying to talk sense into Henry. You have his uncle, like even at gunpoint, trying to get him to come out of his fog. You have Whitney making his kind of plea in a way. And I mean, also not in addition to ghost dad, what I can only assume is ghost priest. Like this priest is also not there, right?

25:14Rob:No, I think that priest is actually there because he's like, he, when he talks, the other characters are responding to him. But they never talk to him.

25:22Jodi:They just kind of like look in his direction in the same way that the people at the dinner party look at the commander.

25:27Rob:They don't. I think Whispering Priest is actually there.

25:31Jodi:You're telling me two 20-somethings are sitting there at the pub at a table with a random priest?

25:36Rob:It's a country Christmas.

25:37Jodi:Do I just not understand pub culture? It's a country Christmas.

25:39Rob:You don't understand pub community. I think that much is clear. I would like to know if Whispering Priest is real. something that I was delighted to discover via Katie Baker's recap is that some of his most profound things that he said he's quoting he's paraphrasing Cormac McCarthy All the Pretty Horses and W.H. Auden's Age of Anxiety so like this guy is just like and he's like he said words that have brought me comfort but he's basically just like getting his like Bartlett's quotations out and just sort of like dropping wisdom that he read somewhere which is maybe what a whispering priest is born to do but I'm willing to entertain ghost whispering priests.

26:20Rob:I'm willing to entertain, but I don't think so. But I guess

26:25Jodi:let us know at harpsichordstrapon at gmail.com if you think this priest is a real corporeal person.

26:31Rob:Can I take you now to Needle Drop Corner, which is a place that I enjoyed last week and I would like to stay here again with you this week.

26:39Jodi:Please.

26:39Rob:I'm interested in the music that they're picking because once again, it seems like they picked some music that is trying to teach us about what inspirations they're leaning on for this episode. So we get You and Me by Penny in the Quarters playing When Henry's in the Bathtub, which is blue valentine straight to my heart, like scenes from marriage, want to watch a marriage dissolve. You play You and Me by Penny in the Quarters, a song that is so closely associated with that movie. If you've never seen that movie Michelle Williams and Ryan Gosling devastating film about marriage but like Ryan Gosling found that song out of obscurity and brought it forth for the soundtrack for Blue Valentine and like made the widow of the guy who wrote it like a lot of money off of royalties because they dug this like demo out of obscurity but like I was immediately transported to one of the worst experiences I've ever had watching A Marriage on screen.

27:37Rob:Any thoughts about the Blue Valentine influence on this episode?

27:43Jodi:I think overall what you're talking about, Joe, in terms of the subtle, like, just kind of formatting us for these scenes, priming us for some of the emotional beats that we're going to hit. And I mean, just the saddest attempted handjob that's ever been committed to film. Like, to make that an emotional moment, to make it weigh as heavy as it does, is quite a feat. And I think ultimately, like, where this episode is so successful is in doing exactly that balance of being like incredibly crude and crass in its way, but also devastating at the same time. And like tapping into Blue Valentine is one way to do that and never actually mentioning the words or making direct reference.

28:18Jodi:Like that's a nice bit of artistry, honestly.

28:21Jo:It's also like Yasmin, you really think about in this episode, especially when she basically says, I'll be the one to kill you. Like she's so powerful. And I've just spent four seasons. It's just the shoes, Jodi. It's just the shoes that are diminutive. It's just the shoes. She's so powerful and makes such terrible decisions. Like, she never knows how to harness her power. And I am talking about the bathtub handjob. Like, the mere idea that that, that like a sad underwater, like aquatic handjob would be the way to revive this sexual union and this relationship is like, Yasmin, what are you thinking?

29:08Jo:This used to be one of your skills, like not handjobs, but like revving them up. Like what were you thinking? That is the single saddest thing you can do. And she's desperate. What else is one to do? And when she is back into a corner, that is when she does some of her worst work. Yes. But also some of her best, as we see over the course of these 12 hours.

29:31Rob:um another speaking of 12 hours this is this takes place all you know on a on a morning into another morning across one night one crazy night um is that all there is by peggy lee plays at one point in the episode this was used famously in martin scorsese's after hours which is like one of the like best one crazy night films that was ever made so i feel like that was just sort of taking us through this like drug-fueled uh surreal uh experience that henry's having in this episode and last but not least in Needle Drop Corner we have like a follow up from last week's use of the Clockwork Orange theme because we get Jazz Suite number two, Waltz number two by Shostakovich which is famously used in Eyes Wide Shut so we've got like double Kubrick in this episode not to mention all of the like very like there's something in Hollywood called the Kubrick Zoom which is this like slow zoom into sort of a static frame and we get it a lot in this, we got it a lot in the first episode we get it a lot in this episode so it is like very clear and I and I say this as a compliment I don't think this is an insult that Conrad and Mickey in writing and directing these first two episodes are like we're gonna get our Kubrick on and we're not gonna make it uh even slightly subtle this is what we're doing we're doing Barry Lyndon we're doing Clockwork Orange we're doing Eyes Wide Shut another uh you know traumatizing film about marriage um and so I thought I just think that's really interesting I would be interested to see what the, you know, the song selection, how intentional that is, or if that's just like me overthinking, which I sometimes do.

31:04Jodi:But I don't think it's you overthinking it at all, Jill. Like if you just told me as a formula, Blue Valentine plus After Hours plus Eyes Wide Shut, that is literally this episode. So like, again, it's just I think structurally speaking, a really smart way to kind of tap into some of these feelings. And also like, especially in terms of the eyes wide shut element specifically, once we get into the party proper, there's a version of those scenes that feels very stuffy, that feels very put on in a way that it obviously is. But I love like the handheld style that all of this stuff is shot in because it makes it takes what is ultimately like a bunch of rich people trying to get bliss out of their minds at a costume party and turns it into that, like turns it into like the photo dump like morning after kind of feeling of what is ultimately like quite much ado.

31:52Rob:I feel like observing your Aunt Cordelia giving Otto a blowjob is as Fidelio as it can get.

32:03Jodi:Can we talk about Cordelia? Can we talk about Claire Forlani, please?

32:07Rob:Lady Cordelia, Jodie Walker, what's your favorite Lady Cordelia moment inside of this episode?

32:13Jo:I'm so scarred by the final moment that I don't actually know if I can think of a single thing. The way that they draw out that sort of betrayal really works because when this woman came in talking about how men will always murder you, I was like, that's my girl. This gal gets it. like you, um, telling, telling, telling Yaz that what she has is not partnership. It's like, yeah, understatement of the century, but it's important to say, I mean, she was just like rolling out some bangers. I was like, if I put this into some, you know, graphic design is my passion artwork and got it on Instagram to say, um, it doesn't matter how much a man tells you that he loves you.

33:08Jo:You never give them unconditional love because they will weaponize it. They worship us and tell us their secrets. And then they load us up with their insecurities and fuck all their fears to that into us. And then they kill us. I didn't see the ending coming after that monologue. I thought like, okay, here's a, here's a source of, um, strongly worded, you know, support mentorship for our Yasmin. And I was wrong.

33:38Rob:Listen, she had a really bohemian childhood, so it's complicated. No, but I think that's such an interesting sort of generational thing for like, I don't want to paint an entire generation with a certain brush, but I think that there are like some women of a certain generation who will say one thing and then defend the, you know, the bad men that they personally have known. You know what I mean? Like the bad actors. I'll just, I'll speak personally and say that I have seen women who I consider like quite feminist, quite progressive, then sort of rally around the men that they know who have been exposed for their like shitty behavior.

34:15Rob:And I was just like, this actually makes, this doesn't feel contradictory to me. This makes sense to me that she's like broadly, let me say these things about how men are horrible. And then also let me defend my brother who had sex with me when I was a child. And Rob, I'm interested in what you want to say, but Jodi is making a face that makes me want to go to her first.

34:36Jodi:Please do.

34:37Jo:Oh, I, I simply have no idea what my face was doing in that moment. I was just thinking about that, what you were saying about, um, and, and there's, there's also the aspect of, you know, that monologue that I'm calling the men will always murder us monologue is it, it is sort of encouraging Yasmin to want more from her relationship, but it's also sort of, it's not exactly shaming her, but it's having higher expectations of her than this aunt has of herself. I think what we understand is that she is still married to Yasmin's uncle, or to her husband, even though she's having this affair with this 29-year-old and even though she's, you know, blowing Otto in the parlor with the candlestick.

35:25Jo:Like, even though she's not living the life that she's saying that she expects of Yasmin. And I think a lot of times we want better for younger generations without providing them the world in which they can be better. Like, Yasmin's made a lot of choices that have landed her where... she is. And we've seen her often, often turn down the, um, the more noble choice in the other sense of the word nobility, um, and, and choose this life and try to like keep her head above water within it. But we also are always being shown the reasons that she makes those choices because the people around her, the people who raised her, convinced her that they were her only protection when really they were the people putting her constantly in peril.

36:20Jo:And it seems to be becoming clearer and clearer the more specific ways that her father may have been harming her and how she, and how he can, I mean, talking about ghost dad, I mean, about how he continues to harm her and put her in harm's way from the grave. Like, this man will not die, and she continues to be betrayed by her own family. Where the hell is her mom? She has this aunt who is like, you know, it seems like she thought of as at least someone to sort of look up to, someone who feels safe. She invited her to this house for this 40th birthday party that she was scared of how it was going to go.

37:05she invited the aunt only to realize the ways in which the aunt has not protected her throughout

37:14Jo:her life, known the kind of harm that she, the kind of harm she could be exposed to through her father. And she chose the easiest thing, which was to do nothing.

37:26Jodi:Yeah. I mean, Cordelia definitely has like cool aunt energy in that way. Which is why I loved her so much.

37:32Jo:That is like my main goal in life.

37:35Jodi:It's a noble aspiration for all of us. And I agree with everything that both you guys are saying, especially in terms of the moral authority that she's kind of projecting and giving this sage advice, ultimately being undercut by everything that she is and does. The hypocrisy is like, that's present through every character in industry, pretty much like all of these people are talking out of both sides of their mouth are making moral compromises are trying to believe in one thing, and selling themselves short and making deals they shouldn't make in order to continue chasing whatever it is they need to chase.

38:03Jodi:And I think her speech, honestly, hits me even harder because of that. Because I think there's a part of her that believes all of these things. And yet there is also clearly a part of her that is, whether it's pragmatic or otherwise, making these concessions to Otto, making these concessions to her husband. It's the acid dipped version of the America Ferrera speech in Barbie. And it hits in a really, really visceral way that, I mean, it's just incredible writing. And frankly, I didn't know that Claire Forlani had this in her in terms of performance. I've never seen her do anything like this before.

38:36Rob:Wow, this is Meet Joe Black erasure. I'm just kidding.

38:39Jodi:Meet Joe Black, for the record. Terrible movie. Very, very bad.

38:44Rob:What a scorching hot take, Rob. What a brave of you to come for Meet Joe Black.

38:48Jodi:It has its defenders. And I don't know, I don't know where those people are coming from. No.

38:52Jo:Oh, they're in harpsichord strap-on at gmail.com. I can't wait. That's where they're going to be. I encourage.

38:58Jodi:If you have a full-throated defense of me, Joe Black, I would genuinely love to hear it. But Claire Furlani comes in just like with a ton of energy, with a ton, like again, changes the course of this entire episode and throws like Yaz in particular, a character that I can't help but root for no matter what decision she makes. Like I'm invested in her story and her journey. And I think Cordelia is what kind of spins her around the most in this episode, weirdly enough. Yeah. Snoring? Gasping during sleep? Feeling fatigued?

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42:05Rob:Between Cordelia saying this thing about, you know, men, historically, men will murder us. This is a historical truth. And then Yaz at the end of this episode telling Henry like, hey, you do this again. I will kill you. I will fucking kill you. So are we being primed for one muck or another to kill someone inside of this season? And then what do we make of the, amongst the various shitty descriptions of Yazmin in this episode? One of them says she's floating around the house all sad and angry, which is very Grey Lady. Like, is she the titular Grey Lady? Of course, we hear about the Grey Lady in the tour.

42:47Rob:The Grey Lady is like a common castle manor kind of ghost. But is Yasmin in her own way like the Grey Lady of this episode, the ghost already? I really hope not.

43:00Jodi:I hope this isn't what awaits Yasmin.

43:02Rob:I don't think she's going to die. I don't, you know, like, what is the show without her? I don't think she's going to die. But like, could you see her killing Henry? Is he just going to kill himself? If I were Mickey and Conrad, I would not want to get rid of Kit Harington on my show because he's freaking phenomenal. But I don't know. Any thoughts on those little breadcrumbs?

43:23Jo:Well, I think that like what the show often asks us to think about and what this episode like quite literally says is like, well, at what point do we die? Do we die when we stop breathing? or is this man already dead? Did he die when his father died? Like, how do we affect the generations below us? And no, I don't think that Yaz or Henry probably are going to die within this season, but as intense as it is when Yasmin says, and it's sort of like compelling and moving as it is when Yasmin says, you know, if you're going to die, I'll kill you myself. it's Yasmin and we know Yasmin and we also know Cordelia now and that's Yasmin in you know 30 years and like it's a lot of talk and it's no change it's she is in no better spot than when we found her she's in a worse spot I keep thinking about that line from the priest and I don't know if this comes from one of the source materials that you mentioned Joe but when he says we choose to be ruined rather than change.

44:34Jo:That is what I'm always thinking about. These characters in industry is I'm obsessed with them. They are compelling. I can't stop watching. They never change. They do not learn lessons. And if they do, they leave the show. It's like we had a great storyline in Rob and Rob left the show. Love you, Gus. Miss you. I bet you're doing better. We stick with people who do not change. And I think, like you said about Cordelia, she really can believe those things. I think she believed those things that she told to Yasmin. But we will always betray ourselves. And generally, when we betray ourselves, we betray others as well.

45:20Jo:And how many times have we seen Yasmin do that exact same cycle to the curtain closing maid or the woman that she hired who heard last season. Yeah. You know, yeah. Get rid of her. The stewardess from the yacht. Like the, oh, now her name leaves me. But the young woman who worked at, at PurePoint who, like. Benicia? Yeah. That's her name? Yeah. Who, who. Benicia.

45:50Rob:Yes. Who, Yaz. Who's like, I don't think I should be getting salads. And yes, like, that's just what I did. So you have to do it, you know? So you do it.

45:59Jo:And if you don't, if you don't, a lot of times it's like, if you aren't harmed in the ways that I was harmed, if you stand up to the shit that I tried to stand up to, but you actually get somewhere with it, that's a betrayal to me. and I'm reeling the ladder right back up. I'm reassembling the glass ceiling. And I don't know, to paint that storyline, tell that story, paint that picture in this episode, I think is pretty wild, like what they were able to do in the Henry Muck, not really a bottle, but sort of a bottle episode, like everything else that we're learning and observing.

46:44Rob:I think it's really interesting that you bring up Rob and Gus because another sort of fast of this episode that I want, you guys are, you're latching onto this idea of like, we'd rather like ruin ourselves and change. I think Whitney coming in and saying you're just telling the wrong story was like a real thesis statement for me inside of this episode, inside of this show, because like that is what Eric has been telling Harper from the very beginning, which is like what the market is. The market is telling a story. The market reflects the anxieties of the people with the money and all that sort of stuff like that.

47:19Rob:So how can you spin them a yarn that gets them to do what you need them to do inside of the market? But to expand that inside of this big sort of like America versus UK idea that we've been working with since Harper, you know, showed up the very beginning. Harper shows up writing her own story. She pretends she graduated when she didn't. Like she's come across the pond and writing her own story. Even though she gets exposed, she's still written her own story to success versus the way in which inside of the UK, you know, these things, the entrenched class warfare just follows you. Rob looks the part, but he has the wrong accent, right?

48:02Rob:Gus has the right accent. Like there are just ways in which these people are just coded and hardwired. in a way that Americans, at least in the UK, are free of. And that wasn't necessarily the argument that Whitney was making. He's like, I don't know if there are second acts in America, but there are in the UK. But he's just like spinning a yarn for Henry. Yes. And what's really true is that Whitney has showed up in like a barber jacket as if he's like Queen Elizabeth going to Balmoral. Like he has costumed himself in like a nobility on the countryside. And he is, you know, telling Harper about how he, in a very creepy way, used like sort of people's anxiety around the death of loved ones to make his fortune and all this sort of stuff like that.

48:48Rob:But that idea of like the American self-made man versus what is mobility inside of the UK versus Yasmin being, you know, called lower class with a northern accent and other things that I don't even want to repeat into a microphone. Like that she is as rich and posh as she is. To Jodi's point at the beginning, she's on the back foot here. So I just think this idea of like what story can you write for yourself? And then what are you even allowed to write inside of the UK class system for Henry Muck, who has this genetic inheritance of depression and noblesse oblige and all these other things that come with being cemented into a spot from birth inside of the UK versus how the Americans can be a bit more nimble inside of this narrative?

49:38Rob:Yes. Do either of you any thoughts about that?

49:40Jodi:I mean, many. And I think the show does, which is part of what makes it like buzz throughout this episode in the fashion that it does, like managing the tension of like what, which of these problems are actually real and which of them are imaginary in the way you're talking about, Joe, in the way that the market is imaginary and the way that it all is mood and humor and like the impressions that people have versus that genetic inheritance, right? Versus something you were literally inheriting from your parents versus whatever expectations you had impressed upon you that you can, in fact, over time, shed yourself of if you work hard enough to do it.

50:12Jodi:If you separate yourself from your dad's suicide, like you may not be able to fully cleanse yourself of the depression that, I actually think this episode is like, like some really smart things to say about the way you incorporate that sort of like mental pain into your life, right? That it is not about trying to bury it. It's not about even trying to process it necessarily. It's about understanding what it is and putting it in a place where it is workable for you.

50:39Rob:Coexisting with it, yeah.

50:40Jodi:Exactly. And getting yourself out of the forest and out of the fog in that particular way. And clearly there are parts of this that are just all storytelling. And I think especially for wealthy people in any country, that can cover up a lot. It can explain a lot. But then when you get into that next stratified tier as you're talking about, Joe, there's just a different story you have to tell. And there's a bunch of other storytellers who know exactly what you've been doing and know exactly what it took to get here. And they see through your bullshit in a totally different way because they are mired in it.

51:09Jo:Well, and it's storytelling, but it's also sales, which is like always been the story of industry. And I mean, it is notable, Joe, as you were talking about it, that I was kind of thinking like, Eric, Harper, now Whitney, the people that we are sort of told and see be these really electric salespeople, all American, all sort of bringing that different facet of, we tell these stories about ourselves and then we sell them to someone who will believe them. Like when Whitney draws the parallel in Henry's, you know, outrageous family estate as they're looking at like the romance art. And he says, Nietzsche killed God.

52:05Jo:Factories started burning coal. It was game over for community, but just the beginning for men like us. And Henry has the wherewithal to be like, men like us? You ever had his sword hit your shoulders, babe? But he says, you want something you don't have. I want everything you have already. That's all the fraternity we need. And finding the, you know, the strivers in our industry community, Eric, Harper, Whitney, finding the the bits and pieces of fraternity that they can pull on. And I remember Otto said that to Harper at the at some point within last season about why he liked her. He he basically said, we're the same.

52:59Jo:Like we're now I can't remember quite the word that he said.

53:02Jodi:But but even that in retrospect, Jodi, was just another story. Right. That's just him telling her what he thought she wanted to hear so she can be the face of his fun. Right.

53:11Rob:And this is something that the show is done from the beginning. like thinking about how Yasmin and Harper first meet is in the bathroom where Harper is listening to Yasmin and another woman that they work with talk about how Harper has the quote unquote best story because she is like a young American, non-white, nose ring, like all the, you know, they're just like, how do we compete with this narrative around Harper? Like, how do we compete with that? And they see the things that she feels like she is working against as an advantage because there's just this great narrative behind her. And I just think that, like, Rob, you alluded to this great quote that Jennifer Bevin, who was our politician at the table who gets accosted by Henry, says to his uncle, the Viscount, she says, economics is a question of public humor and moods, and it's a question of tone, right?

54:00Rob:What story are you, the media, spinning, and how is that impacting and creating a recession by creating panic and all these other things.

54:11Jodi:Yeah. And I mean, Jennifer Bevin is part of this conversation, too, about these sort of like interlopers, right, who are at this party. I really think it's Harper, it's Whitney and Jennifer Bevin, three people who probably don't even know on some level why they're here. And yet they're all after something. And they come in presentationally very different. Whitney is like playing the part, putting on the costume, wanting to ingratiate himself to this world. I think Harper not dressing up, or I mean, look, she's in cloaks and like full season anyway.

54:39Jo:She didn't wear an Amadeus wig.

54:41Rob:She's not period appropriate perhaps. Completely.

54:45Jodi:And that's a flex in its own way, right? Like for her, I think it's an expression of power. And for Jennifer Bevan, it's like a half measure, right? It's like, I'm here. I'm here to not quite kiss the ring.

54:55Jo:I'm wearing a blouse until you'll be getting it.

54:58Jodi:I'm here to flatter your impressions of the world and your perspective. but you know, we're not going to go, I'm not going to bend the knee to ultimately like the old media.

55:07Jo:And these are also three people that you see doing a lot of eye acting. Like they're the only, like we flashed that hand, that steadicam flashes every once in a while to one of those three people to be like, we're seeing it too.

55:22Jodi:I would love to know both of your thoughts on when Harper and Whitney are discussing the aforementioned.

55:27Rob:This is what I wanted to talk about, yeah.

55:28Jodi:You know, really only in America to really profit off of the funeral industrial complex in the way that Whitney did via venture capital. What are we seeing in Harper's face?

55:39Rob:I would say the ick. That's what I got from that. Is that not what you got, Jodi? What did you get? I was concerned.

55:48Jo:Maybe it was the ick, but I almost felt like she was being won over. I think I've had this feeling since she met Whitney that she in some way saw him as an equal. And I think that's very unusual for her. We've seen her mostly be very kind of demeaning to the men that she deigns to sleep with. And this was a different, more intimate situation kind of immediately. And also that she would have seen him as an equal and then he asked her to peg him, I think would have quite done something for continuing to see him in a unique and interesting way. And so I felt like she was kind of, maybe not charmed by the story, but I felt like she was playing coy in a way I've never really seen her do.

56:44Jo:And then she was mad at herself when he walked away. That's what convinced me was the little, was the, was the, when he walked away, like, why am I feeling this? We've seen her feel so few feelings, Certainly not any positive ones.

56:58Rob:I thought her like rejection of him was like a clear like I've gone off of him. But you're saying she's playing the game.

57:05Jo:Oh, no. You know, when you're when you're serious about someone, do you know you got to at least wait till the third date post Peg. So that they know you're serious. So it's Peg and then three dates after. Peg Foundation. Yeah. Three dates. Then three stories of the building on top of the Peg Foundation. which is strong you know in an episode about partnership it's a strong foundation this is the

57:30Jodi:real girl math as far as i'm concerned i've heard this formula before i have a question for you and

57:35Rob:i don't want to get too personal but my memory is that like you're you the mahoney family business is connected to like the funeral process what did you make of this of whitney's sort of mercenary approach to this.

57:50Jodi:I mean, look, I can't support the bare bones, if you'll allow it, of the entire business of the model of taking all of the personality and care out of ultimately like saying goodbye to someone's loved ones.

58:01Jo:You're not doing the Uber for funerals. No, they're not investing in that. Not quite my MO, but but clearly there is a market for it, right?

58:10Jodi:There is a certain percentage of the population for whom it's just like, can we get this over with? Whitney identified it. He is gross for doing it. And I think that's why, like, ultimately, as far as Harper's reaction, I kind of do come down more on the Ick side of things. I do think, I mean, look, as the commander puts it, like, there is a nexus of arousal and disgust that is probably tapping into both of these feelings for her in some way or another. But even for a character who I would say Harper is mostly, like, pretty amoral, like, she is exceedingly practical and, like, goal-oriented, whatever it takes, Something about Whitney in this moment seemed to like be a little beyond some kind of pale.

58:47Jodi:And I just don't even know what it is.

58:49Rob:Especially when she has or is on the verge of getting more information from Jonathan Byers of Stranger Things about like Tender and what's going on there. I'm wondering if Yasmin has established Henry at Tender and this is very important to her in terms of like his productivity or something, it is desperately important to Yasmin that Henry succeeded tender, so she is a stake pro tender. And if Harper is on the lookout to short tender, does that put Harper and Yaz at cross purposes this season?

59:25Jodi:Well, Joe, when are they not at cross purposes?

59:27Rob:Well, sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. And I'm wondering, I'm actually furthermore wondering if they're going to be at cross purposes and then united in taking down Whitney, you know what I mean, to save Henry and also to make Harper a profit. This is always me just wanting people to work together. I did this all through succession. It is foolish of me, but it's something I always want to have happen. Very endearing.

59:48Jo:But if we are talking about Harper and Yaz, we have to talk about just the brief scene of them, you know, doing a few lines to get through the day. And the absolute nerve, but also sort of endearing, of Yaz with cocaine on her nose, Amadeus wig on her head to after Harper says just kind of gestures around and it's like, I just feel like all of this stuff is not going to get you the respect that you deserve and the nerve of her in that outfit, in that state to say, why would you say something like that? You know, that'll hurt my feelings.

1:00:30Rob:She's like, you know, it's totally normal that I like to dress up as Princess Diana Marie Antoinette when I do costumes, right? Those are totally Why don't you say I'm not going to get the respect I deserve? Totally fine.

1:00:41Jodi:Maybe it's the husband who was just pantless in this very room buffing those exact lines a couple moments ago. But yeah, something tells me it's not going to work out okay for you.

1:00:49Jo:How dare you suggest that I deserve more than I have, which I also know is less than I deserve. And in the proposal of my marriage of convenience, I said, Henry, I deserve everything.

1:01:03Jodi:You did.

1:01:04Jo:and then things and then I had the best sex of my life on the wedding night and then things immediately went off the rails. How dare you closest thing to a best friend I've ever had say I deserve more. How dare you know me this well? How dare I be perceived? That is literally actually Yasmin's tagline. It's like, how dare I be perceived?

1:01:23Rob:How dare you see me? Um, I want to, I just have a couple more things I want to talk about before we go. We've already sort of danced around this idea that Kit Harington is fantastic in this episode. And as a long-term Game of Thrones enthusiast, I have a couple questions for y 'all, if you'll indulge me. Absolutely. First of all, our listener, Cole, wrote in to say, I find it absolutely hilarious that while Henry is on at least heroin and pills for what seems to be months now, Kit Harington in the bathtub is still more ripped than 99.9 % of the world will ever be. And honestly, I don't care. That's television, baby.

1:01:57Rob:so um if you'll indulge me on the throne's front what made you think most of Jon Snow was it um

1:02:09Jodi:well let me stop you there Joe it was spring is coming how could it not was it winter is coming

1:02:14Rob:versus spring is coming that's one option was it uh Kit Harington showing you the hard work that he's done on his glutes uh which he liked to do as Jon Snow as well um or was it him hitting a person in the face, like shoveling someone's face in as Jon Snow did famously in the Battle of the Bastards. Like, which was it violence? Was it sex? Or was it the tagline of spring is coming versus winter is coming? Jodie Walker.

1:02:40Jo:I'll tell you right now, it was that butt. Heated rivalries impact. It was when he stood up out of that tub, globes glistening. I was like, that's Jon Snow.

1:02:52Rob:And then he put like demure hands sort of like tucked behind the bum. is to be like, don't look too long. Yes.

1:02:59Jodi:The hands behind the back is just a beautiful moment. Yeah. Like just physical acting. Great job from Kit.

1:03:04Jo:That really was like the only time actually that I thought of it. I think like this performance is so different, even though it's like sad boy all over again, you know, but it's totally different. I think of Jon Snow very little during it, except like there was something about that, which wasn't very performance based, which was just so like, took me right back.

1:03:23Rob:I had a similar moment in season three when he and Yasmin were in the hotel swimming pool and it was steaming and it was very like Johnny Gret in the cave. And then he got out and once again showed us that butt. To respect Kit Harington, I want to say, I think his performance here is incredible. I think, I don't know how much of this is something that the creators have leaned into, but Kit Harington has been very transparent about his battles with depression and battles with substances as they pertain to sort of his fame and the pressures of that. And so the way in which this had the opportunity to be an incredibly personal performance for him, and I just think he really delivered.

1:04:05Rob:Henry is the kind of person I root for against my will, but I am oddly rooting for him. I did not want him to end himself in that garage. And I'm not foolish enough to think he's going to succeed, but I don't know why but I wish him well and that's down to Kid's performance I think.

1:04:26Jodi:I mean that's the whole show right like none of these are people I want to be friends with. But even more so Henry

1:04:32Rob:would you say more so than anyone else?

1:04:34Jodi:But like they're all on paths of self-destruction in different ways. It's just like whose fuse is shortest and it looked like his fuse might be quite short right it might be within this episode following in his father's footsteps he finds a kind of rebirth in the same way that Yaz does in the same way that they do within their marriage but But the result of that is him pitching, oh, maybe we should have a kid and maybe start the cycle all over again. Doesn't that sound great for everyone involved?

1:04:57Jo:But God help me when Yasmin's voice saying his name is the thing that brought him out of, you know, the garage filling with gas and sent him into the circular driveway screaming her name. And then he fucked her against a car while his uncle watched and she watched the uncle watch. I thought this is romance. um like they're alive there romance is alive and that was another one of my 2026 trend predictions romance is alive and well in 2026 and it is kind of like eat your heart out weathering heights like this is goth modern gothic romance yeah and for me that felt like really a couple of things felt really cemented by this strange was it the blood smear on her mouth that that was giving uh first

1:05:48Rob:Speaking of salt burn, salt burn for you or like, how did you feel about it?

1:05:52Jo:First, it was when he touched her hair off of her face with his blood covered hand. And I thought this is gothic romance. I did not expect that to then escalate to her kissing his other hand where the blood is fresher, smearing her lips with blood and not wiping it off. And I'm just down there. That's part. That's actually partnership. Cornelia doesn't know about that, but that's partnership. and I just thought like I never would have expected in the first episode of this show to be watching a gothic romance in industry season four and I think that's so cool and it also has sort of also opened up the other part of the show to me in that way as well like there are a lot of parts of industry that are a ghost story there are a lot of parts of industry that are a gothic romance and that are sort of like extremely traditional in some of their tellings and extremely modern in other ways.

1:06:57Jo:And so I'm almost like I walk out of this episode like really excited to watch the rest of the season.

1:07:02Rob:On the ghost story front, I will just say the way in which like Bill Adler is haunting Eric this season is interesting to me. And then the way in which it all started with Harry's death in the very first episode in the way in which that was just sort of hovering over all of his classmates, if you want to call them that, as the story progressed. Rob, what did you want to say about that?

1:07:25Jodi:I just think in terms of, for one, turning these not just from ghost stories, but like twinning the daddy issues between this couple and these two characters and kind of driving them in parallel. And I felt like specifically the hammer lines, we have not mentioned yet the Cordelia line about how your father told me he was going to terminate the pregnancy until he found out you were a girl, kind of paired off with Henry himself saying like, do you know what would have been a more loving gesture for my father of a sectomy, right? It's like they're weirdly in similar places. They're weirdly kind of cursed in their ways that they're trying to get out from under.

1:07:58Jodi:I don't know how successful they're gonna be, but I love this sort of interrogation of those ideas. I love the idea of those as being like a driving force that's bringing these two fucked up people together within their fucked up relationship. And you're right, Jodi, the idea that we're getting into it so early in the season, I think is part of the magic of it. This is not an eight episode season where episode seven, guess what? We're going to swerve and we're going to tell this standalone story that you're never going to expect as we've seen in every other prestige show to date.

1:08:23Rob:Right.

1:08:24Jodi:It is table setting, right? It's understanding these people as we reshuffle the deck, as we change everything about what the season is going to be about as every season of industry does. This is where these two critical characters are.

1:08:35Rob:It puts really important emotional stakes on Henry's success or failure at Tender, right? Because like if they just brought Henry on board after seeing what happened when he was in charge of a company last season. We would just be like, here we go again. Why should we care? He's just going to fail again, as he says inside of this episode. But now I don't want Tender to succeed. It's going to make me sort of root against myself. I don't want Tender to succeed because I don't trust Whitney at all. I don't know what's going on. There's deep, shady secrets going on here. I want Harper to succeed. And if Harper's success requires Tender to fail, that's interesting to me.

1:09:12Rob:but I also want Yaz to be happy and Henry to succeed. So I mean,

1:09:17Jo:no one's going to get what they want this season or ever. Rob, you paralleling those lines is so, well, as you well know, men are obsessed with legacy and women are obsessed with not being murdered. And I think like the, the absolute controlled insanity of having an hour before said the kindest thing my father could have done was get a vasectomy and then to have ever so briefly come out of his sort of manic, depressive haze and said, I think we should have a baby.

1:09:53Jodi:Well, he's not out of the haze. That's the manic part.

1:09:55Rob:I want to get to that. I want to get to that in a second. Before we wrap up with that, I just want to beat on the Yaz and Haley scene because Kieran Shipka is in this episode in a Northwestern sweatshirt. What do we make of that exchange? they're reminding us that this character exists okay yeah i didn't draw a lot from this to be honest with you i'm curious if the infidelity clause counts if you sleep with a woman who you could not get pregnant you know or could not get pregnant because that's usually why an infidelity clause is in well i don't know about nepotism uh those in general but in terms of like nobility yeah usually to preserve the line so like didn't a plugged in are you joe on nobility law

1:10:33Jodi:like, you know, marriage law specifically.

1:10:36Jo:You know, not my... That was your minor in college. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So a little. Yeah, I mean, my main takeaway was that they were just establishing some sort of confusing sexual tension, maybe? Like Yasmin inviting her into the bed and the sort of... But it also felt a little bit akin to the relationship that Yasmin had with her former boss sort of mentor, that international woman of mystery, is like, okay, is Yasmin actually... Oh, Celeste. Is Yasmin actually, you know, wanting to maybe, like, have this girl in her bed or is she just challenging her?

1:11:22Jodi:Like, is she just challenging

1:11:24Jo:and sort of pushing and confusing, like, yet another young woman?

1:11:31Jodi:It did seem like a challenge. It also seemed like girls got needs. And, you know, Henry hasn't quite come around yet. He's off in a garage somewhere.

1:11:39Rob:Come around, great phrasing. Okay, so listen, Katie Baker, the great Katie Baker, did interview Marissa Abella about the final moment when Henry's like, should we have a baby? And this is when Marissa Abella, who plays, yeah, said that she used the word delusional, mania, and said, quote, she's never going to be safe with this man again. So if that's not the ick, I don't know what is. This was a hard no from Yaz. Yeah. With the blood smear still in her face. So cue the pet shop, boys. I mean, it's a bad time.

1:12:14Jodi:There's huge are you fucking kidding me vibes in that moment, right? Like after everything these two characters have been through, for that to be his revelation, embarrassing, frankly, for Henry. But, you know, who's to say what we come out of our long crazy nights with?

1:12:28Rob:We just have to like, you know, men are just going to fuck their fears into women and continue the tradition. Anything you want to say, Jodi?

1:12:34Jo:I mean, you know, the thing about me is that I could never let Yasmin off the hook either, though. And it's like, yeah, Henry came out of the garage and immediately said I should procreate. Yasmin, you know, got laid on the car and immediately was like, well, guess things are all better. I think I made the right choice here. I think when I created this marriage of convenience, I actually made the right choice. And so I'm going to strap on my headscarf. I'm gonna kiss my husband's bloody knuckles and everything's gonna be fine and like two seconds later she is just always re-realizing I made a huge mistake it is an incredible gift of that character

1:13:17Rob:all right Jodie Walker can you remind folks where they can reach us with their thoughts on you know ghost dads harpsichords strap-ons anything else they might want to talk to us about here.

1:13:32Jo:We would just love for you to email us at harpsichordstrapon at gmail.com. If you need the spelling, you can tune into YouTube or Spotify to see that on video right now, or you can Google it, or maybe it'll be in the New York Times crossword this week.

1:13:48Jodi:One can dream. I do want to know, just for people who are listeners only, strap on, no hyphen in strap on. Just harpsichordstrap on straight up as is customary. Straight up.

1:13:58Rob:And if you did not watch this episode, on video, what you missed towards the very beginning was Jodi silently miming the way in which Lady Cordelia spit the mint out of her mouth in Yaz's direction. It was an incredible piece of podcasting and Jodi, we're so grateful to be doing this. I'm sorry I'm making this space

1:14:15Jo:again. I'm thinking about what she said again. Everybody was talking about taste way too much. Thank you

1:14:25Rob:to Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Jodi Walker. And on that note,

1:14:29Jodi:to auto for always packing mints yeah for the tastemakers really that's who i hope dies if

1:14:35Jo:we're if we're laying down our who's gonna die i auto hope it's auto yeah uh dare to dream well he's already got dickensian ghost written again and then in which case i will choose that uh thank

1:14:48Rob:you to ashley smith and devin ronaldo for the work of this episode thank you to justin sales for his work on this feed in general and we will be back with more industry next week uh the episode's a little late this week just because Monday was a holiday, but usually we're aiming to have these out on Mondays. And then we'll also have an episode, of course, about the next episode of The Pit out later this week. And that is what is happening on the Prestige feed. And we'll see you soon. Bye.

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