'Love Story' Episodes 1-3: American Royal-Tea

12:12Katey Rich:what we got is we get this cold open sort of leading what's going on with him he's injured he's limping out of the office yeah He's got his JFK stationary so we know who he is going to the tarmac. He's got her sister with him. His sister-in-law is with him. She also died in the plane crash. And we see Carolyn blonder, sleeker, smoother, but so unsure, right? She's getting this manicure and she's like, actually, this is the wrong color. They aren't going to, like, make it a neutral, you know? And so then when we flash back to 92, which is where the story starts, starts, and we see her wild haired, getting ready, but so assured in her style and who she is.

12:54Katey Rich:Yeah. I like that contrast of like she became this sleeker, blonder, picture perfect Kennedy bride. But what it did to her personality and her confidence and all the things that probably drew him to her in the first place is what is the journey that we're going on. So that I really did like.

13:14Jo Rich:Yeah. So more of that and less of the plane crash tragedy part. Yeah, absolutely.

13:18Katey Rich:What's interesting to me, your question of how do we get inside Carolyn Bessette? Because my understanding, so the cited source for this show is Once Upon a Time, The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy by Elizabeth Butler. So that's what they're saying is the book. The People vs. O.J. also had like a source book. Oh, yeah.

13:37Jo Rich:I think I read that whole book back then.

13:39Katey Rich:I remember it. So that's, but that book came out in 2024. They've been working on this since 2021. So I'm like, how much can that book actually be the source of this? Is the writer of the book credited on the show in any way? Like, is it a parallel process thing? I don't know that I, I don't know that she's like credited as a, it's credited as directly inspired. I don't see her in the like producer rank.

14:05Jo Rich:I just wonder if like, you know, you've got an unpublished manuscript book to take a while to get out there. And like, they announced a show two years later, they're ready to start writing. And it's like, okay, we can use this. Like, it seems like that makes sense to me. What I did think was interesting, though, is like we get as I was trying to do some light research.

14:18Katey Rich:I didn't dive as deep as you and I did for OJ, but to do some light research from this, I was reading various articles that have been written over the years about Carolyn Bessette. And a lot of the stuff we get in this opener seems to come directly from a different book, which is Michael Bergen, who is the male model who she's dating, wrote a book called a kind of like trashy book called The Other Man, colon John F. Kennedy, Jr., Carolyn Bessette and Me. where he alleges that there was a lot of like overlap and all this other stuff. But this information that was in this book was about her morning routine.

14:51Katey Rich:So it was like seven minutes to chic. She would get up and she wouldn't ever brush her hair. And these are the kinds of clothes she wore. This is like her bagel order. And this is how she got on the subway. And like that was just the opening minutes of the episode to me. So I am curious how and Michael Bergen, the male model, plays a fairly significant role in these first three episodes. I thought he was there as just a kind of look at her dating a kind of poor man's JFK Jr. I know. Is sort of what the energy was. Kind of. But I was like, oh, if he's an uncredited-ish source for all of this sort of like insight into Carolyn, I think that's interesting.

15:32And I'm curious how you would feel if one of your ex-boyfriends was a major source in

15:39Katey Rich:a TV show about you when you purposely kept yourself distant from the press.

15:43Jo Rich:I would not feel great about it. I mean, I guess in real life, she also put him on the Calvin Klein billboard. So, you know, she gave him a leg up. So I guess he's going to keep using her to get legs up in the afterlife. I mean, I like that detail about her, though. You know, there's something like, you know, free Sex in the City, Carrie Browshaw vibe about her waking up in that little apartment. Her clothes are all over the place. And she looks incredible no matter what she's wearing. I think she's wearing a black turtleneck in summer in the office. And you're like, wow, OK. Yeah, in New York.

16:10Jo Rich:I know what that smells like. Yeah, getting on the subway, wearing a black turtleneck is a choice that you can all make. And his role, I had the same thought of like, she's warming up to JFK Jr., but also like getting with him and then leaving him. And you see her at the club with her friends and she's kind of like tactically calculating. Yeah. But it's not the kind of like upward mobility scheming to marry a rich guy thing that like Diana was accused of. Right. That you might think of like as a stereotypical version of how you wind up marrying a Kennedy. You kind of see her and her independence and what she values and her thinking process, you see it at work too.

16:44Jo Rich:So even though she's kind of using this guy in their relationship, it also shows how she's getting more powerful at work that she can turn him into the Calvin Klein model to replace Marky Mark for a homophobic incident I didn't even know about. Oh, you didn't? I mean, I knew about other ones. I think that one was news to me. So yeah, there's just so many to choose from. New depths to mine with Marky Mark.

17:02Katey Rich:Great stuff. There's a great variety article written by Daniel Desario about the process behind making this show. And And this is something that Connor Hines, who is the creator of the show, who who is like a very like first time. Yeah, I was going to ask where did he come from? He was an actor, I believe, and just like wanted to try his hand. According to his Variety article, he wanted to try his hand at writing. He had sort of dialed in on the Kennedys and Carolyn and had been doing his own research. And then he heard that Ryan Murphy or FX or whatever was interested in a project. He's like, hey, guess what?

17:34Katey Rich:I've been doing research. That's the story in Variety at any case. But this is one of the quotes he has about Carolyn. And I'm curious if you if you can identify what it reminded me of. So much of what I read about her was that when she singled in on you, she could make you feel like the only person in the room with her. A wicked sense of humor, swore like a sailor, incredibly emotionally intelligent, a firecracker. After a while, I was like, oh, I think I have the skeleton of this. So that idea of like when she focuses her attention on you, does that like paying anything for you?

18:04Jo Rich:It's a politician thing. It's just like what everyone who's ever run for office or like who uses your name a lot in conversation. Yeah, active listeners. Actors do it and politicians are really good at it.

18:13Katey Rich:It specifically reminded me of the Jennifer Garner Vanity Fair profile. About Ben Affleck? She said something very similar about Ben Affleck. She's like, basically, I'm going to misquote it. Great, great cover story with Jen Garner. But she was like, when his attention is on you, it's like the sun is shining on you. And when it's not, it's very cold. And so like that idea of Carolyn Bessette and you can see it. In these episodes, you know, in the very beginning, she's with her friend. They're going up in the elevator. PTSD for me of being in the elevator, caught in ass, and worrying that Anna Wintour is going to get in.

18:46Katey Rich:Yeah, because Calvin gets in and they're not supposed to be talking. They're not supposed to talk in the elevator with Calvin Klein. That was an Anna Wintour rule. That was an Anna Wintour rule. We have caught in ass trauma. But, like, you know, she's kind of buzzing around doing her thing. And then she, like, turns her attention on her friend and is like, here's what you need to do to, like, get someone to like you. This is what you need to do. And in the dinner scene, the dinner date between JFK and Carolyn at the Indian restaurant, which I think was like the most important scene to nail in all of these episodes, the way that she's like dialed in on him.

19:20Katey Rich:There was just something really interesting about the way people who knew her described Carolyn as someone who, there's a great quote, it's that she gained attention without seeking it. And there was just something about her that was magnetic. Yeah. And there was something about her attention that felt like nothing else. So for JFK Jr., someone who lived his life bathed in attention, what was it about the attention of this one person that really felt worth pursuing?

19:48Jo Rich:Well, because it doesn't feel like she's trying to get anything back from him. You know, he's bouncing all these things at her and she's paying attention to him, but she's not trying to impress him. I mean, that's really what it is. Like, she's playing hard to get and he's like, I can't believe it. No one in my life has ever not wanted to be closer to me. Right. And I love that scene. There's another one, I think, in episode three where they're meeting on a park bench. Like, there's really great one-on-one scenes between them throughout this entire thing. And even in parts where you're like, it's too much Jackie.

20:13Jo Rich:It's too much giving me, like, you know, Kennedy family history dumps. Like, they're really nailing the chemistry between the two of them and what he sees in her, what she sees in him, what she's kind of trying to resist wanting to see in him. Yeah. Like, I don't think she's said it out loud, but you kind of see her being like, I don't want to be a stereotypical, like, wife of a rich guy. Yeah. Like, I want to do my own thing. But the fact that they keep getting drawn back together, I wondered how I felt about how long it takes them to get together. Like, that takes three full episodes before this relationship starts, before they kiss.

20:40Jo Rich:Right. I think it's just in that end of episode three. Right. Right. But I liked the drawing out of that between them. Maybe could have used a little less of the other stuff in the meantime.

20:49Katey Rich:Yeah. I mean, this is the truth of their relationship is that they like got together for the first time in 92. And then I think not really until 94, 95. And so I like that idea that she wasn't just sitting around moping for him. Right. She was living her life to, you know, discovering Kate Moss, which is which is true. It's true. She is true. I think they lived in the same building or something like that. So she like knew Kate Moss and sort of made Kate Moss. So the way in which Carolyn Bessette in her own way defined a lot of the look of the 90s is something that I didn't understand about her.

21:22Katey Rich:Yeah.

21:22Jo Rich:Even before anybody knew who she was, she was like the aspirational figure.

21:26Katey Rich:But that chemistry, I really agree with you. I think they nailed all of their scenes together. I think that final scene where he like bikes to her in the rain is devastated by his mom's death. and the like slow peeling off of clothes, the touching, the calm down, then he kisses her and she's like, no. Yeah, and there's like no dialogue, really.

21:44Jo Rich:Like it's very good.

21:45Katey Rich:It's really, really good. The bench scene, the dinner scene, their energy is, I think, pitch perfect. I think without a doubt to me, no matter how much attention this show gets or doesn't, this is such a calling card for Sarah Pidgeon as Carolyn Bessette. She's just, to your point, just endlessly watchable. The way she flips her hair around, what she's doing with her body. Like the whole thing is just like, I want to watch this person be mean, be nice, be fashionable, be all these. Carrie Bradshaw is a great comp for that. And I think this is a real calling card for her. I'm wondering, I like him, but I'm wondering how you feel about Paul Kelly, who was cast three weeks before production began.

22:25Katey Rich:Did they have somebody else? No, they could not find their JFK Jr. And then they like kind of, they had discarded him earlier and they brought him back in. And he's, I think, a model from Canada. and they just like, you know,

22:36Jo Rich:looped him in. Our pal Richard Lawson wrote a review of this and they're like, they found him wandering in the Canadian woods and I was like, that feels about right. Sounds right. I like him. I like him too. I think he's saddled with weirdly less interesting stuff. Like the, I think the dynamic between him and Caroline Kennedy is really interesting. The dynamic between him and Jackie feels strained in like stuff we've seen before. Yeah. But this idea of like being the crown prince but not wanting it and kind of like trying to resist that in really goofy ways. Like he won't lock up his bike and he's wearing those ridiculous hats and he's trying to start this magazine and being like, why do these people want to have lunch with me?

23:05Jo Rich:And his cousin character, I think, in the gym is like, because they want to be seen having lunch with you, you absolute moron. So he has this arrested development thing, but there's such a sincerity behind all of it. Like, I do at various points think like, what was he supposed to do? Like, how was he ever going to like cut this knot and find his way through it? Like passing the bar probably would have been helpful. Would have been helpful. But I feel for him. The honk-flunks is like a great, a great headline that greets us at the beginning. I feel bad for him. I mean, I think him and Daryl Hannah is a hot mess and he could have done many things to navigate that.

23:34Jo Rich:But having him be weak in that way and not be able to get his way out of that relationship but not be a pathetic character, like that's a tough balance to strike. I think he does well with it.

23:43Katey Rich:I think he's great. I think she's a revelation and I think he's great. Have we seen her in anything before? She was in the wild. She got Tony nominated for Stereophonic. Right, that was her thing, which I haven't seen. Yeah, so she's great, but this feels like if this show hits, which I actually, I don't know if it will. It's gotten like some mixed reviews. Yeah. It's hard to know what makes things hit anymore. It really is. And like I was just thinking about OJ and what a like massive hit that was. But to your point, that was 10 years ago. And you and I were talking a little bit before we started recording about your point was OJ was like the first time we had seen something like that.

24:20Katey Rich:And since then, we've gotten all of The Crown and all of the other Ryan Murphy shows. And so now it doesn't feel as fresh or transgressive. Jack Sloshberg is out here being like, how dare you? you know. Oh, he's mad about it? Oh, yeah. He's like, how dare you turn this tragedy into content? And I'm like, that felt more poignant for us in 2016. Now we are very numb to that, like, kind of outrage, you know?

24:44Jo Rich:That's a wild stance to take. Like, I mean, the movie Jackie also came out 10 years ago, you know? With all due respect to Jack Slossberg, I think that ship has sailed.

24:53Katey Rich:On that front, how do you feel about Naomi Watts as Jackie O putting on Richard Burton's Camelot and like swanning around smoking a cigarette when Natalie Portman did exactly that in the Jackie movie.

25:04Jo Rich:I think I wrote in all caps like you can't just do that. It's a wild, wild thing to do. It's done. And because like all Jackie performances are going to kind of have that similarity to them. Like she's kind of a cartoony figure. You're not going to do a different version of Jackie than what Natalie Portman did because that's who she is. So just leaning into that and having her like look back on her memories and burn letters. Like I don't remember if she burns letters in Jackie but she may as well have. Like it was the same. She's like doing a heavy pour on the wine and going through her closet while Camelot plays.

25:34Jo Rich:Do we really think Jackie and her like the last days of her life was talking about Dallas that much? Like there's so the amount of times they say Dallas in these couple episodes is crazy.

25:44Katey Rich:She also just doesn't talk like a human talks, which like I don't know that Jackie O did. I don't even mean accent wise. I mean, when she says stuff to to to JFK Jr., like, you know, the public holds a stone in one hand and a rose in the other. and I'm like, which is just supposed to be like a normal conversation mother and son are having

26:01Jo Rich:here at the end of things. It might have been, you know, in the movie Jackie with Greta Gerwig, whoever's interviewing her, maybe it's not Greta. I feel like she might have said something like that, like giving an interview to a reporter, but you're exactly right. That's a soundbite. Yeah, exactly. When she's just got so many like Kennedy exposition dumps, you make your father was supported by his father to run for Senate. And you need that, I guess you need to have this sense of legacy. But it's actually later around when Jackie's getting sick and is dying when you start getting Caroline coming up and, you know, they like go out to like wave for the press at some point when they're holding vigil for Jackie.

26:36Jo Rich:And she's like, why do we have to put on a brave face for them? And you get so much from her that it almost made me wonder, like, what if they just didn't have Jackie in this? And what if it was just getting senses of these parents from beyond that? Yeah, I agree.

26:47Katey Rich:I think it's an interesting question. Could this could we have done all of this without Jackie O. Yeah. And I actually, I think we could have. Or way less Jackie O.

26:55Jo Rich:Way less Jackie O. I think her death, bringing them together is important. Like, I think you need to understand he's being like, you know, the Daryl Hannah relationship is obviously fascinating, but I think the grief that he's feeling and the like, the pressure he gets from her, you need some aspect of that. But they just did not have to turn it back into the 2016 film Jackie. There's so many other ways to do it. Which is a great movie. Great movie. Love that movie. I'm a Camelot. Fan of that song. There will never be another Camelot. We all know. I still remember.

27:23Katey Rich:I'm curious, like, yeah, I'm really curious what the show will feel like without her in the absence of her, the shadow of her. Yeah. I'm also curious about this Grace Gummer performance as Caroline Kennedy. Yeah. It was reminding me a lot of, to go back to The Crown, this sort of Princess Anne role. Absolutely. That in the younger version, Aaron Doherty played, like, so very similarly, like. So similar. They kind of look alike. Yeah. Yeah, very similarly reserved character, but Aaron was bringing a lot more life to that archetype than I feel like I'm seeing from Grace Gummer so far. Yeah. Though I did really love the scene between Jack and Caroline at the wake when they're sort of hiding from everyone and talking about being kids and stuff like that.

28:09Katey Rich:I thought that was really good.

28:10Jo Rich:Yeah, and they have these intertable scenes and she's sitting there with her husband and she's done the right thing. He's the one who can't get his life together. And like you see her kind of like trying to support her brother while support her mom at the same time. Like that's an interesting daughter dynamic, I think. And so I don't know whether that's enough of what the story is to have to get her as a character. But I'm kind of excited. It sounds like maybe there's more of her to come. Yeah, I'll be really interested.

28:37Katey Rich:I mean, I know that Carolyn, Carolyn Bessette did not get along. Obviously, clearly did not get along with the Kennedys. I mean, you can tell.

28:45Jo Rich:Even from like she hasn't met any of them yet.

28:47Katey Rich:How much of that is going to come from, is it on Caroline to represent inside of the Kennedy family? I'm unclear. So far. I'm not an astronaut.

28:57Jo Rich:I don't need an astronaut.

28:58Katey Rich:Audiences have spoken. Project Hail Mary is an awe-inspiring masterpiece. So, I met an alien. If you've fallen out of love with going to the movies, this one will bring you back. Hang on! Ryan Gosling in the first must-see movie of 2026. Project Hail Mary, rated PG-13, may be inappropriate for children under 13, only in theaters March 20th.

29:26Jo Rich:This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. One of the most useful things in my life lately has been my Apple Card. Great for game nights, vacations, just life in general. And applying was so easy and quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer. And if approved, you can start using your card in minutes. Do it while watching a basketball game. You could start making purchases with Apple Pay before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get up to 3 % daily cash back in every purchase. That's more daily cash to use for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card.

29:58Jo Rich:Apply in the wallet app on your iPhone. Start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, terms and more at applecard.com. This episode is brought to you buy the active cash credit card from wells fargo that's a mouthful but that's because it packs a lot in earn unlimited two percent cash rewards on purchases with it big or small so whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee it earns unlimited two percent cash rewards on purchases say it with me the active cash credit card from wells fargo be a two percenter learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply what's interesting is like in all of

30:39Katey Rich:the Jack and Carolyn Here's Their Story articles that I read in the last week or so. Their meet cute is not at all what we see here. There are a bunch of different versions that exist out there in the world, but none of them are what we saw here. So they gave them a little bit more of a like genuinely Cinderella at the ball, sort of sneaking into a ball where she doesn't belong. He spots her. She's the princess. And he comes looking for her.

31:08Jo Rich:It does sound like they're a bunch of like galas involved in their early friendship though so absolutely the pool one

31:12Katey Rich:that happens later like that's that's definitely part of their story but so to give it a more kind of cinderella aspect at the beginning but also my understanding is that the thing that they show us inside of this show which is that it was daryl hannah's problem that she like didn't get to spend time with the kennedys and jackie oh that was also a carolyn beset thing that she was upset or he wouldn't introduce her to Jackie. And so that's not really part of their story here, obviously. The way they're telling the story, they didn't meaningfully get together until after Jackie's death. But that was a tension in their relationship too.

31:49Katey Rich:And I don't know if that change was made to paint him in a better light or I don't quite know. That seems to be all sort of put on poor Daryl Hannah's shoulders, which is Daryl has like a really thankless role in these episodes. It's really tough. Yeah. Drea Hemingway is playing Daryl Hannah. She's doing a like big swing Daryl Hannah accent, like voice pattern thing. At times it's a little uncanny, like the way she holds her body and stuff like that. It's like really accurate. But like if I'm Daryl Hannah, I am deeply unhappy with this show.

32:21Jo Rich:There's just no way in real life she did so much like showing him out of nowhere and like she's on his set and she shows up at the wake with like, it's like a jump scare kind of thing. Yes. That keeps happening. And I feel for her, like he is being - Absolutely American horror story, Daryl. There we go.

32:35Katey Rich:Like, that's what it is. Yeah. There she is in Wake in Black. Yeah. And you feel... And she's like, everyone's wondering about us here at Jackie O's Wake. Everyone wants to know what's going on with our relationship, Jack.

32:47Jo Rich:Absolutely insane behavior. Classic actor stuff. Yeah. Like, I'm not the main character in all of this. Yeah, I guess so. And I feel for her because he's so avoided. Like, she shows up and he's like, okay, Daryl, I guess you're here now. Like, you really want him to take any kind of stand. So as much as it feels like she's kind of reading the signs she wants to and not paying attention to the other ones, but it's hard to have sympathy for her.

33:07Katey Rich:It's interesting that I'm like, does this show like any woman that's not Carolyn Bessette? Like, Caroline's getting a tough treatment. Jackie, who's like an asshole about Daryl Hannah and a bunch of other stuff. Like, I don't know how much this show likes women. I'll be curious to keep watching and find out.

33:27Jo Rich:Yeah, that would be a really weird, like, through line for this show to have. And, like, it's complicated women. I think you can give it that. I don't think anyone comes in. I love complicated women. Do. And in theory, these Ryan Murphy shows do, although hard to know how they add up. Big question, yeah. I would rather them be complicated. I would rather, aside from Gerald Hanna, it feels like everyone has a justification for how they're acting. And maybe they're all just rich snobs, and that's why they act that way. Like, including Carolyn to some extent. Like, she can be a snob and be kind of difficult to people.

33:53Jo Rich:So, it's a complexity that I appreciate. The only good person in this world is Annette Bening, I guess.

33:59Katey Rich:Oh, my God.

34:00Jo Rich:You were talking about Uncanny. Like, that was wild.

34:03Katey Rich:That was a really good Annette Bening.

34:04Jo Rich:Really good. I mean, the hair is, like, so key to it. But, like, so much of the way that she's acting. And, like, the first dress they have her in is so terrible. Right. And then you're like, this is early 90s Annette Bening, you guys. Like, get it.

34:15Katey Rich:I don't know who plays her.

34:16Jo Rich:It's so good.

34:17Katey Rich:But it was really fun to me because this is what I love. Like, we used to, this used to be our bread and butter of Annie Fair, which is, like, we would definitely have a breakout post. They might. I don't know. we're recording this a little early but like a breakout post about the fact that annette benning did wear men's like men's wear to the bugsy premiere so like what's the connection there like that i definitely google image search like what she wore to the bugsy premiere to like see it in in action so you know this is the stuff we love this is as much a we started 92 we end in 99 this is as much a show about the 90s as it is it has the opportunity to be as much a show about the 90s as it is about these people in the 90s other than like the I don't know, Blind Melon, Mazzy Star, Six Spence on the Richer, Needle Drops.

35:01Jo Rich:Mazzy Star is kind of a cheat, though, don't you? As soon as Fade into you comes up, you're like, oh, okay, it's gonna get me. It's like Max Richter at the end of Hamnet.

35:10Katey Rich:It's a cheat code. Absolute cheat code. Pretty much. But, like, is there anything, you were asking sort of, like, what depths could be mine here that OJ did a great job with? Like, what is happening? I mean, we weren't, like adults at the time, but like what's happening in New York at this time that could speak to us in a greater way? Is there anything you can think of?

35:33Jo Rich:I don't, I mean the paparazzi, like the role of that in their lives. Like, I don't know if like the death of Princess Diana will be covered on this show, but you think of that as a fulcrum point of when these people could just like expect to have photographers following them. And now it's so different and everyone's got a camera phone. So kind of understanding that way of like managing publicity and managing yourself as a public figure. I mean, I think it's going to be the Kennedy stuff more than the 90s stuff, right? I guess. Legacy and what you owe people and, you know, Jackie's saying the stone and the rose or Carolyn talking about putting on a brave face for them.

36:01Jo Rich:Like, I think that that weight of responsibility. But that's also the thing that has been said about JFK Jr. always is like he's like the prince and the tragic story. So I would like for there to be more about like Calvin Klein or like culture and fashion and stuff like that than the Kennedy legacy stuff. I'm curious how that balance emerges.

36:20Katey Rich:I do think it's JFK Jr., who is not someone I've spent a lot of time thinking about, to be perfectly honest with you, is such an interesting, you know, they obviously underline it, Sharpie highlighted this idea that the public met him as a boy grieving his father. Right. Like he and Caroline as two children grieving the death of JFK is iconic imagery of the American.

36:47Jo Rich:You see little baby JFK Jr. in the crowd at Jackie's funeral. Like, he looks at it and he sees a little, like, memory of himself, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:54Katey Rich:But, like, yes. But, like, the way he's, like, he doesn't look like his dad that much, but he does enough and he's so handsome that there is this sense from, like, what I've read and stuff like that. there's a sense of this perverse desire to like resurrect JFK via like we can go back.

37:17Jo Rich:Yeah.

37:17Katey Rich:And we can have a different go and a different outcome, except it's the same outcome, a tragic young death. Yeah. But like the fact that colliding with this idea that he's like a little bit of a hot dummy, you know what I mean? Like can't pass the bar. Right. And so he's not dumb. Like he doesn't seem dumb but like George magazine was a flop like all this stuff that he was trying to do so

37:41Jo Rich:it's like you want to start a magazine though like the idea of like some rich guy throwing his mind

37:45Katey Rich:into a magazine yeah bring it back yeah like let's go back but I think that um I think that's so interesting of like who people wanted him to be yeah and who he actually is yeah this I presume it's yeah Ted Kennedy at Jackie's funeral reading the eulogy and talking about how she just wanted to be a person, but the world needed her to be an icon. And so like what the world needed JFK and what the world then will want the woman who marries JFK Jr. to be versus the messy haired woman that we meet in 1992 at the beginning of the show. Yeah. Yeah.

38:19Jo Rich:I mean, thinking about like what America thought it was doing in the 90s, you know, this is a very pre 9-11 story, very pre 9-11 New York, like, you know, the plane crash in 99, like wrapping up this decade of being like, we got it all. We made it to the mountaintop. Everything is fine. Obviously, the OJ show is also set in the 90s period. Plenty of problems to mind. This is not the story you're going to use to get into questions of race and class and all of that stuff. So what are the other things about America in the 90s can you bring out?

38:45Katey Rich:I feel like class will be here, but it'll be on a completely unrelatable degree.

38:49Jo Rich:It'll be like your dad was just a lawyer.

38:51Katey Rich:Yeah. Wow. Wow. You worked at the mall ever?

38:54Jo Rich:Disgusting.

38:55Katey Rich:Which I'm not opposed to that.

38:57Jo Rich:Like, I loved The Crown. Like, them being like Princess Diana grew up like just in a house on the estate. Right. like an act she doesn't have a title already like I'm fine with that being part of the drama

39:06Katey Rich:do you want to talk about Alessandro Nivola as Calvin Klein I'm into it yeah the Nivola family

39:11Jo Rich:you just never know what they're gonna get up to next like every because they're the daughter is also an actress or it like they're like the kids and Emily San Marlowe like yeah it's I didn't recognize him at first I had to look it up who he was playing and it's it's not a big performance and I guess Calvin Klein as a person is probably pretty restrained but I just like the like air of, you know, haughtiness and menace that he carries with him into that elevator.

39:36Katey Rich:So he's married to a woman at the time and Calvin Klein will like later in his life come out and have, you know, male partners for the rest of his life. And so I thought that was like a really interesting way that they were treating it at the beginning. Like they had a few comments about like our boss's like questionable sexuality or whatever, or in the Marky Mark homophobia a conversation. He's sitting there as like a closeted gay man. Yeah. Inside the world of New York fashion, the worst kept secret or something like that. I mean, it's supposed to be something about the 90s. Yeah, but just sort of like sitting there and his reaction where it almost felt like he felt the need to downplay it so that his sexuality didn't enter into the conversation.

40:17Katey Rich:Do you know? I thought that was really interesting.

40:19Jo Rich:He says we have to put out a statement and it's like, are you going to put it in your name? And it's just like, yeah, I don't want to. We're not going that far.

40:24Katey Rich:I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, I don't want to

40:26Jo Rich:how much more of a role he can play in the story overall, but I like having him here.

40:30Katey Rich:Something that was interesting, when the first photos of this show hit the internet, the reaction from people who know way more about fashion than I do, which is everyone, was that they got the fashion wrong for Carol. She's not fashionable enough or they didn't quite nail her minimalism or whatever the case may be. So FX has been like really heavy on the gas in all of their sort of behind the scenes about talking about all the research and all the vintage pieces they found and all the things that they did. So they're really hitting the like, no, no, really, we got the fashion right. We swear sort of energy.

41:06Katey Rich:So but they were talking about how Jackie O as this sort of like queen of the Kennedy kingdom and then Calvin Klein is the sort of like king of the fashion kingdom at the time. And so like these two monarchical figures inside of this world. And I do question how much Calvin Klein is central to the story going forward. But I thought of that as interesting. We get way less Calvin Klein than we get of Jackie O. Yeah, definitely. And those two in the Daryl Hannah are definitely like the three most Ryan Murphy-y sort of like performances and characters inside of the show. But I was just like really interested to think about the fashion world in that way as like a kingdom with a king of the top.

41:48Katey Rich:We think of Anna Wintour at the top with our Condé Nast bias. But like in the 90s, who was it?

41:54Jo Rich:What was it? I mean, I guess it was Anna Wintour then. Probably. But yeah, the contrast in what Carolyn is wearing and she walks into that office and she's only ever wearing black and white and neutrals like everyone else in the building as opposed to Jackie in her kind of like 60s fashion that's still kind of like stuck in time. She loves a scarf, a headscarf. Love a headscarf, you know? I don't know who I really want to dress more like. I don't have the hair to like pull off the Carolyn stuff. But I do. I like that visual contrast a lot. I think that Calvin Klein office is a really fascinating place.

42:21Jo Rich:has been told at the showroom where Annette Bening is trying on that dress. Like every piece looks like perfectly assembled there. It makes you kind of want to like learn about fashion in a way, which I also don't usually want to come out of a show learning about the fashion. So it's an impressive job on their part. We didn't talk about the dog. Oh yeah, dead dog.

42:37Katey Rich:What a terrible outcome for that poor dog. All right, so we should say, and this is the trap you fall into when you, not a bad trap, but like you're putting together what do we include from the life and you stumble across this anecdote of JFK Jr. killed Daryl Hannah's dog, got it cremated and got on an airplane with the ashes. And presumably people saw him because there's that like commentary later about like, I don't know what people thought when they saw you on the plane with those ashes. But like, that's one of those things where you're like, we have to put it in the show. It's true. We can't do the show without Daryl Hannah's dead dog ashes in it.

43:14Katey Rich:Like we have to do it. But like, it's this weird like ending of the episode.

43:19Jo Rich:Yeah, well, it's parallel with Jackie collapsing. You're like, okay, the dog whose name, I guess he has a name. I don't remember it. And Jackie equally important.

43:29Katey Rich:Jackie collapses and the dog dies. And yeah, and then Daryl jumpscare at the wake being like, I know how you feel about your dead mom because my dog died. She really might have to sue.

43:43Jo Rich:It's a psycho thing to say. I really think she should. This is probably something you talk a lot about when you've got the show. it's like eight episodes but like is it an episode or are you just like trying to find a way to end it and then moving on to the next one you know structuring something as an episode of television and like I don't know that every OJ episode was good at that but I'm just remembering like there's the one episode where it's about Marsha Clark and Chris Darden and there's the one where it's about the jurors and like you get these structures of this really large unwieldy story by shifting your focus and this one is about two people really so like I guess episode three really is the Jackie episode and we're complaining about the focus of it but like it does there's a messiness in the structure in these early ones so that you end on the dog and Jackie and I wonder if it kind of finds a way to tighten the lens and structure itself like an actual episode of TV going forward.

44:27Jo Rich:I'm just looking at episode titles going forward.

44:29Katey Rich:We have episode five. Episode four is called I Love You so presumably they say I love you for the first time. Episode five, Battery Park probably where they had one of their public like paparazzi fights. They live in like Tribeca,

44:40Jo Rich:right? Yeah. I think so. So like probably

44:42Katey Rich:one of their big blow up fights instead of Central Park was probably Battery Park. okay uh episode six the wedding going to georgia let's do it i guess so and then episode seven is called obsession by calvin klein oh but like i don't know i don't know what that's about so um is it seven episodes or it's not it's nine but they don't have the final two listed on okay on the old wikipedia best source for anything ever um so and then the first episode was called pilot which is them being very very cute yeah because they didn't pilot the series they just uh yeah They put the whole thing out there right at once.

45:18Katey Rich:So let's go back to the beginning. That is the end. This is another moment where it's like, what do you know? What can you guess? So we know that JFK Jr. had an injury. I believe he actually had the crutches on the tarmac.

45:32Jo Rich:How did he get injured again?

45:33Katey Rich:It was a paragliding accident, which is like exactly how you think. That is what a Kennedy would do, actually. He sent the flight instructor away. It wasn't like, hey, Jay's not here. He didn't show up, the flight instructor. He sent him away. And then in terms of their like reconciliation, do you want to call it? Their tentative reconciliation that happens on the tarmac. This is entire show invention. Like we don't know the state of their relations. They had been fighting. We don't know how they felt when they got on that plane. So this is something the show has decided. We're going to show you this conversation at the very beginning of the show that they weren't headed toward divorce.

46:08Katey Rich:They were headed toward reconciliation of some kind.

46:10Jo Rich:Or they were at least in a stable enough place to go do this together.

46:13Katey Rich:It's a love story that would have endured had it not been for the crash, which like I don't know that I think it would have. Like, I don't know that they don't get divorced if they go to that wedding in Georgia and come back. You know, so like the but this show wants to be a love story and wants to tell like a true love story. And I maybe I'm too cynical for that here in 2026. I don't know. What do you think?

46:36Jo Rich:I mean, I don't know that that means that it's going to end on a note of being like this was the truest love of all. Like, it does seem like they're setting them up as complicated people. Yes. And their relationship, like, faces challenges that would be hard for anybody to overcome. And I think maybe the best you can hope for is saying they're going to try. You know, they're like, they're in this position. They want to reconcile. They're probably going to fight again at some point. Right. Because, again, like, I hope there's not an episode of them being inside the plane crash. But, like, what is the final note that we're going to end them on?

47:01Jo Rich:Like, you hope it's a note of, like, oh, but we could have fixed it. You know, like, at least it's, like, a hopeful sense of what could have been, which is, I think, so many of the Kennedy stories is that you think about, like, what potentially could. And even if they'd gotten divorced and she'd gone on, she knew she could be the editor of Vogue or whatever else. Like, that could be an interesting part of it. Same with Diana and Charles, really. Like, I felt so invested in their relationship. I was a real Prince Charles apologist watching The Crown. I blame Josh O 'Connor for this. Like, now we understand his powers better.

47:26Jo Rich:And he made me like Prince Charles. It's all Josh O 'Connor's fault.

47:30Katey Rich:But I remember you and I used to get in, like, arguments about Prince Charles.

47:34Jo Rich:Well, it's a real JFK Jr. thing. Like, you have your mom being like, this is what you're supposed to be. And it's not that I was rooting for Charles and Diana to get together. but you just think of like, God, if they could have just figured, if they could have just done something different. Figured out co-parenting at the very least. Or if he could have just married Camilla in the first place, but you know, we can only go back to that. So yeah, I like a love story when it's a proper love story, but I'm kind of counting on this to go in a slightly more nuanced direction, even if that's the last we see of them.

47:58Maybe that's the last shot of the show, you know?

48:00Jo Rich:It just, we see the plane flying off again. I have to imagine,

48:03Katey Rich:especially like so much time we're spending with Caroline, that we're going to get like the aftermath.

48:07Jo Rich:Yeah.

48:07Katey Rich:Of like what it meant for, Because I think in order for this show and this story to feel like it matters, I think they need to show the impact of what happened after the crash.

48:19Jo Rich:But you think that might be the last we see of JFK Jr. and Carolyn? Right. Yeah. Like, it comes back to that. That shot on the flight. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me.

48:26Katey Rich:Yeah, or like the first bump of turbulence or something like that. I don't think they're going to show the whole crash.

48:31Jo Rich:What would it take for you to get on a plane with your husband? My estranged husband? Your estranged husband has, like, pretty minimal flying experience. And is limping on the tarmac. Do you use your feet when you're, I have no idea if like there's a gas pedal. I think you should. I don't know. I don't think there's,

48:47Katey Rich:well, I don't know about small planes.

48:49Jo Rich:I'm not flying anybody's plane,

48:50Katey Rich:just to be clear. I'm not getting in that plane, to be clear. Not at all.

48:54Jo Rich:Carolyn's sister is just like, okay, let's give it, I mean, it sounds easier than driving, obviously, but no, thank you. Not even once. Yeah, sorry to anyone in my life who wants to get me to get on their plane. I'm not doing it. It's not happening. All right, well, so that's the first three episodes. Are you excited to watch the rest? How do you feel about it? It is funny to talk to you about this and being like, I don't have the like mandate marching orders to cover every inch of this the way we would have at Vanity Fair like five years ago. So I get to just kind of like dip in and out. But my brain's still broken and I'm like, this is what this breakout should be and this is what this breakout should be.

49:26Katey Rich:Still cook. I know.

49:27Jo Rich:I know. Like the 90s nostalgia, like all the pieces are kind of in place for me there. And again, like when Jackie's kind of getting out of the story, I'm interested to see where it goes from there. We got a lot of TV I got to watch. like I don't know if you know there's a lot of TV in the world it's hard to keep up with it you're very busy and important I'm gonna watch like one of the sad Oscar nominated shorts which is like what I need to be doing right now and then reward myself with an episode which will also end sadly

49:50Katey Rich:so you know but nothing is sadder than an Oscar short so you know you can only go up from there yeah man the docs are rough this year yeah I'm excited to watch the rest of this series

49:59Jo Rich:I would be excited too for this to be not an OJ level success but I would like it if we can get a good one of these again and like have everybody talking about

50:07Katey Rich:carolyn beset for a while it's more fun if if like a ton of people are watching a ton of people are learning a bunch of stuff about the 90s for the first time and they're like wait really people wore pants that came up to your ankles and you're like yep that's what we wore uh it is true okay um that has been the prestige tv podcast about these three episodes thank you so much katie rich oh my goodness thank you for having me here uh we'll be back with more industry more of the pit and if this show is a hit uh you know we'll come back to it again in the future write to your local ringer broadcasters and say more of love story it's true the letters will be pouring in uh thanks to devon rinaldo is here with us uh thanks to justin sales for the work on the feed we'll see you soon bye

51:14Jo Rich:We'll see you next time. going without slowing you down.

51:21Katey Rich:So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at participating locations only. If you're a content creator, you know the struggle of picking between quality and quantity to grow your channel, especially if you're on a tight budget. But why not choose both? With Storyblocks, you get everything you need to create amazing videos fast. Instead of expensive pay-per-clip pricing, you get unlimited downloads from a library with millions of stock assets for one set price. Go to storyblocks.com slash Spotify to learn more.