‘Love Story’ Episodes 4-8: Press-ed

20:59That's mostly what their function is. So like, you know, her friends show up to be like, man, Calvin Klein's sure going to be pissed that you're not wearing his wedding dress. just so we know later when she meets with Calvin Klein what the stakes are. That said, Alessandro Nivola as Calvin Klein, I'm so bummed that he's, I imagine, not going to be in the finale of this show, right?

21:19Rob:Right, maybe. I guess maybe in a condolences kind of reaction sort of way. I could see that, but he's really, really terrific. What's really funny is that, especially that scene where Carolyn leaves Calvin Klein and he knows he's not designing the dress, but she doesn't know that he knows. That is such a Ryan Murphy show character and a Ryan Murphy show moment. Like it feels like the show at its most. I know that Connor Hines is like the main creator of the show. It's not a Ryan Murphy show necessarily, but like that's the mode of character. A resentful gay man is like very much in the mode. But Alessandro Nivella, who's so good all the time, did a great job with it.

22:05Rob:But I really agree with you where it's like they remember that Carolyn has a mom right before her mom needs to give a speech. Or they remember that John's friend is there right before his cancer comes back. That character, yeah. I like that character a lot, but I like that performance. It's a really warm performance. But he's there at the beginning of the season. He's ostensibly there in the wedding episode as the best man, but sort of barely there. And along the way to kind of like cut up with John and take him down a peg and check his ego a little bit. But I just really feel like he, I feel like, and this is a problem that like, again, some other Ryan Murphy shows have had where it's just sort of like you forget about the actual, it doesn't feel like a lived in world.

22:50Rob:No. Because these characters ebb and flow when you need them for plot reasons and not like actually character reasons. Do you know? I think there are two exceptions to that rule other than Calvin Klein. One, like I also was very impressed by Lila George as Kelly Cline. I think they're dynamic. And she was also to me like one of the maybe only bright spots of disclaimer in terms of like her appearance on that show. And so like I would love to see her do more stuff. Like this feels like something that's right in her wheelhouse. And I also really love Sydney Lemon as Catherine's sister Lauren. OK.

23:23In particular, like the maid of honor kind of conversation, I think is just like really good sibling shit. Yeah.

23:30Rob:And the bathtub scene. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. She didn't have a ton to do. Yeah. Every time she's around, it brings interesting things out of Catherine and she feels like an actual counterpoint and not just someone to deliver dialogue. I really liked Jessica Harper as Ethel Kennedy. I mean, come on. Like Jessica Harper and absolute fucking legend. Yeah, absolute legend. But like everything that she was doing was like what I wanted Naomi Watts to be doing with with Jackie. Like this just did not like Ethel Kennedy is a known quantity. If you follow the Kennedys and is like very much a character, very much the like intimidating matriarch of the family, all these things, but doing it in a way that feels realistic.

24:12Rob:There are just moments when she sort of like looks at Carolyn or the conversation she has about never being the prettiest one and all this sort of stuff like that, that just felt very human. So she could be a like capital K Kennedy and intimidating Kennedy that that sends Carolyn into a tailspin of anxiety and inferiority, but also felt like a real person for her to interact with. I think that idea of her and Jackie juxtaposed is something the show is really interested in, not just those two, but those two types of people. Are you the kind of person who walks into a room and the attention pulls to you?

24:46Or are you the kind of person who is in the room and has to fight to kind of get it back? I think the show has some interesting ideas about that. I don't know that it really has many interesting ideas about legacy or even like, you know, combating the paparazzi or what it means to be famous. It's a lot of stuff we kind of have seen played out very similarly in other texts.

25:06Rob:Right. The like the fact that Diana's death is a key part of here at the end of the season and like a little bit of a Ryan Murphy verse tie. And when Carolyn's like, I just saw her at Gianni's funeral. And it's like, American crime story Versace. Just shameless. Absolutely shameless. Look for Carolyn Bessette in the background. But the Diana stuff is such well-worn territory. You've seen it in The Crown or you've seen Kristen Stewart do it. You've seen like a ton of people. Naomi Watts. I was about to say. You've seen a ton of people do the Diana story, which is like very similar. and again the show draws attention to that to the the paparazzi hunt that is though that is a a reality of for sure the 90s and the media and sort of like our quote-unquote answer to Charles and Diana is uh JFK and Carolyn but like I agree with you I don't know that they're doing anything that I haven't seen inside of one of those Diana stories I think the only thing that felt new from a Diana perspective was using her and Carolyn in contrast.

26:16And this is something that Carolyn brings up in the immediate aftermath of her death is like, Diana did stop for the tabloids and did pose for the pictures and did like, she tried to play nice with them and they still wouldn't stop. And Carolyn tries to live a private life and tries to like go on and not participate in that. And they called her a bitch and they still wouldn't stop. And so this idea of like there really is nowhere to go and this trap that a certain level of fame boxes you in. I think that's an interesting kind of, again, juxtaposition of those perspectives and those characters that I hadn't quite put together before.

26:49But as far as Diana herself, I mean, she is a framing device in this show.

26:52Rob:Right. Yeah. I just, I'm trying to figure out what the, because the show is positioning the story of these people and Katie and I talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the season, but framing these, the story, their love story as a story that spans a literal decade. And you have a certain iconic, you know, like Diana's death is a huge, like defining event of the nineties, but you have the rise of Kate Moss or the rise or the rebirth of Calvin Klein, or what are all these things that define a decade or the musical choices. but I don't know that it is telling me anything particular, like in the way that American, the OJ story told me something very shocking and true about that specific moment in time.

27:41Rob:And about ours. Yeah. I don't know that this is holding up a mirror to anything in a way that I understand or unearthing anything. I don't already know about the decade. Yeah. I think there is definitely, there was a nostalgia in this series for the idea of an unobserved life. this is what carolyn is longing to get back right like her old life where she could go about her business where she wasn't being hounded where she could just like hold a normal job yeah uh i think we all feel some version of that right in modern life this this concept that we are not being hounded by paparazzi but you step outside and anything you do is observable and filmable and can be litigated on the internet internet by like countless people at any time that's just like part of living in society today and so i think there is a reach for all of us for like a point in time where someone couldn't contact you so easily, couldn't capture you so easily.

28:29But what does that mean in terms of a show that also wants to be about paparazzi, which is such an artifact of a very specific moment? Being famous today, I think it bears very little resemblance to being famous in the way that Carolyn and John are famous.

28:43Rob:Right, and what Jackie and JFK went through is very different from what happens. This is the boiling over point for the paparazzi. It's not over because there will be like Britney Spears that comes after it. Like, you know, it goes on. But I do think that move from like paparazzi culture into social media culture where celebrities in theory have more control over their exposure. They've seized the means of production. Exactly. But it then becomes you have to sell yourself constantly in order like actors talk about this. Right. Where it's just sort of like if I don't have a large enough following, no one will cast me in anything.

29:22Rob:Yes. Or writer, you know, in the publishing industry, like authors talk about this. I can't get a book deal unless I have a large social media following. So I need to be like a personality that people enjoy. I can't just like write a book or, you know, be a performer. They're, you know, intertwined now. And if you got into the profession before that was the case, congratulations. But if you're trying to make it now. You have to play that game. And I think especially that discrepancy between the way that sort of fame works now versus then. To me, this sort of tabloid culture that the show is interrogating and examining.

30:00And I want to say it's on a visceral level, like very upsetting to watch and to feel. And the show does a really good job of kind of like hoistering you into Carolyn's perspective of like, this is how overwhelming and intrusive this feels all the time. And the way it disrupts you, it changes the fact that your grandmother won't even call you anymore because she assumes you have a drug problem because of something she read that somebody made up.

30:24Rob:And that's true, by the way. All these things were printed about, Carolyn Bessette. Absolutely. And so that form of tabloid exploitation to me feels almost like straight cannibalism. There's a society of people who are just feasting on whatever the flavor of the week is. and being famous now is so much more, to me, it's less cannibalism and the very like breadcrumb myth-making of like Stan culture today is so much more like, I'm going to cut off a little piece of myself. It's like cannibalism versus self-cannibalism. I don't know. But you're choosing what to slice in theory. You're participating in some way.

30:58This is your Hannibal agenda back in the mix. The Hannibal agenda continues apace all the time, but it's just like a distinctly different feeling. And I think to be in the shoes of somebody who is prohibitively famous in 2026, it's just, again, it bears a little resemblance to this part of it, I think.

31:15Rob:But there's always a cost. And there's a couple comments inside of this show, whether it's, you know, from Calvin Klein or John or something like that, of just sort of like the cost of fame, what the cost of fame is, what is, and this idea of like, this is what you signed up for. but how could Carolyn know when that wasn't even John's you know like we see John I don't know playing football with the paparazzi earlier in the season you know what I mean like he has this convivial relationship with him because the fervor was lower like he was people's sexiest man alive and his fights with Daryl Hannah were tabloid fodder but it was just like it wasn't the frenzy that it became once they had that wedding yes I mean, he couldn't possibly know.

32:08The scale of this just became something totally out of control. As we said, he is also coming to all this from a perspective of not just, I would say this is something that he and I have in common, or at least the way he's portrayed on the show, a very like this too shall pass kind of mentality of like, things will naturally work themselves out in a lot of cases. The difference is he's coming to that perspective from somebody who's like never had to take care of anything in their entire life. And so he assumes that things will just happen, but he's assuming that because his business partner is secretly running the entire magazine and like killing himself to do it.

32:40And everyone has brought him everything he's ever needed. And so the idea, the optimism that John seems to operate with in this show is like, I think it makes for a very endearing quality at times, but it also makes him like so desperately out of touch with a lot of what they're trying to deal with.

32:55Rob:So just to recap, you have declared yourself the JFK Jr. of the ringer. Literally never said that. I think that's what you just said. I am the big old dummy of the ringer. That's what I said. empty suit of the ringer now.

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35:38Rob:I think my favorite episode, you said it's this most recent episode. I think mine is the Battery Park episode, not the fight itself, but that trip to Hyannis Port with Ethel Kennedy or just like all the little ways in which John is careless with her. Yes. Just sort of lightly abandons her in a way that he is completely ignorant of. And but we feel it for like, you know, when she goes down to the breakfast and like his name is on the chalkboard, but hers isn't. And then he has an explanation for it. But it's just sort of like you couldn't have asked her. You couldn't have warned her. Like he just like or when he takes her elsewhere in the season, like when he takes her to Caroline's birthday dinner.

36:25This is unbelievable. I know he's JFK Jr. This should be like a deal breaker for me.

36:33Rob:Absolutely. If someone brought me to a sibling's birthday party, didn't tell me it was a birthday, told me it was a party, but it's a dinner. Yeah. Yeah, I'm out. You're done. You are clearly not operating on planet Earth if you didn't feel the need to disclose that information. How do you feel? Because I would say, you know, this is definitely the JFK and Carolyn show, but I would say the third lead of the show is Caroline Kennedy is played by Grace Gummer. A Streep, a dynasty actress. How do you feel like that character is working? Not super well. It's tough. Yeah. She has just kind of become the latest in the Kennedy video game boss fight that Caroline must progress through.

37:14And it's just like, that's a boring way for all of this to suss out. Especially when I really liked Caroline in some of the opening episodes. I thought she, again, wasn't given a ton to do, but had some moments.

37:25Rob:The wake was really good like when she and John were talking about being kids together. I think the show really does kind of get some of the sibling dynamics even in these unusual circumstances. But she's just become like so much more of a stand-in for the family that I'm losing interest in that character by the minute. This idea that like, yeah, I'm just trying to figure out what they're trying to do with her because this end of the season incident where Carolyn takes her daughter down to the lobby to like get some candy and the paparazzi are there and Caroline blames Carolyn. Right. And then that is the cause of this huge rift between John and Caroline.

38:03Rob:So I don't know if that's supposed to still be in effect two years later, but like is the point that they die and Caroline's like, I died estranged from my brother to a certain degree or estranged from Carolyn. I don't know. You mentioned John's business partner. We've talked about the Jackie O depiction. Katie and I talked at length about the Daryl Hannah situation. I mean, it's tough. Caroline Kennedy, who has the most right to sue the makers of this show? I think it's still Daryl Hannah. Yeah, probably. Who's just portrayed as a straight-up lunatic. Yeah. And I know that's like a person whose vibe is very difficult to capture without going over the top with it, but the writing, the performance, just like literally every aspect of how she's portrayed on screen is not just uncharitable, but just absolutely wild.

38:52Rob:That's really tough. There's this really interesting, you know, something that Katie and I talked about was I have not been able to confirm it, but I have heard some whispers that it might be true that the idea that this show is actually based on Michael Bergen, who is the model that Carolyn was dating before she dates John, based on his book about her and not the sort of more reputable text that they are sort of claiming the season is based on. Yeah. Again, I heard that that might be true. I'm not this is not something that I feel journalistically I can put my my full throat support behind. But when Michael Bergen.

39:31So you're you're making a spurious allegation about a book of spurious allegations that the show might be based on.

39:37Rob:It's just like a tiramisu of spurious allegations. But soak in the lady fingers of my opinion here. But Michael Bergen shows up very weirdly. a little bit late in the season to just be kind of like told you. You know what I mean? Like he gets to show up to be kind of right about something, kind of cautionary about something. A very weird scene for him to be in. Completely unnecessary. And I just don't know why that's in there. If not, you know, as part of this whole Michael Bergen furnished us with all these details about how she gets ready in the morning or something like that. I don't know. I just found that moment really odd.

40:14Rob:if not for some debt that they owe this person. See, I'm not even sure it's like a debt they owe kind of thing. Tell me. But to me, the resonance of that scene in the text is, oh, he is almost certainly the leak who is feeding some of these tabloids information about specifically the idea that John had proposed. Right. Almost no one else knows that information. Carolyn tells him in like a moment of kind of self-interrogation and maybe weakness. So you think he's casting aspersions on him? Maybe. Or at least just kind of, I mean, they're not aspersions if they're true. how spurious is that spurious aspersions is a great question um on the on the sort of like cautionary tale i warned you front we do have this speech um from ann messina freeman carolyn's mother played by the absolute legend constant zimmer in an incredible wig wonderful um what did you make of this how did you feel about this i mean great tension especially for someone who like i didn't know any of this was coming i had no idea how her mom might react to any of this Yeah.

41:12And so, you know, the ultimately like the beset internal family dynamics I found to be a welcome part of the show and their collision with the Kennedys and her standing up in that moment with all of these people surrounded by, I mean, the closest thing that America has ever had to like a grandstanding multigenerational seat of power. Yeah. And saying like, you know what? Like, I really hope you show up in the way that I'm worried you might not. And I got to say, Carolyn said she was right and she kind of seems a little bit right.

41:39Rob:Maybe she would have gotten her point across better if she had had T-shirts made, like Ed Schlossberg did. What was the point of the T-shirt? Was he selling them? I don't know, but it's a fact that they learned about the wedding that he handed out shirts that said that, so... Carolyn had, I think, five requests for her wedding. One of them was no party favors, and this guy could not prevent himself from giving out a party favor. He's like, it's a T-shirt, it's merch, it's fine. All right, anything else you want to say about the show? What are you expecting from the finale? I mean, obviously we know.

42:11Rob:I got bad news, Joe. I've got bad news for you. But like, okay, so this is a question Katie was asking is like how much of the crash are they going to show? If it's called Search and Rescue, does the crash come at the beginning of the episode? And it's really just like the aftermath where we get a Donald Logue, Ted Kennedy. We get Constance Zimmer as Anne Freeway. We get Grace Gummer as Caroline Kennedy. Like we just have all these side characters because I don't know how interested I am in an episode that is Sarah Pigeon light. Yeah. That's how I feel about this show. I think that's a huge concern and a huge problem if the show does go in that direction.

42:49Especially if the notes that we end on in exit strategy is kind of the last we see or near the last we see of this relationship. It's obviously tragic, but that would just be really hard to stomach. Right. I hope we get a little bit more. I also, again, one of the things I loved about this penultimate episode was the way in which maybe, look, I'm outside my depth in terms of the literature base that's feeding this show, spurious or not. I would imagine there's a lot of things said in that room that no one else could possibly know. And so to me -

43:16Rob:I would say all of it, like it's all constructed, all these behind closed doors moments. Definitely. That's what I like about it, right? It's like, what are the things you are doing to kind of fill out the portrait of these people and their relationship? And I hope there is a version of that, whether it's in the plane or again, more on the tarmac or leading up to their flight that kind of continues to fill in these parts of the relationship that are unknowable. It's tough because, you know, so we've seen we've seen them have this kind of half reconciliation moment on the tarmac, but they're not going to have, to your point, another moment like her sisters on the flight.

43:51Rob:Like they're not going to have another like just us conversation after that. so like if yeah I don't know I have some questions I'm very interested I love that you love this like it's not that often that you love a show more than I do so like I think this is really fun for me to see I think a lot of it to be honest is the lack of familiarity with the material probably helps in this case I do think Sarah Pidgeon has just been such a revelation as Carolyn I can't get enough of what she's delivering on screen as far as it's just so hard to embody a character who is supposed to have this like ineffable thing right and she has an ineffable thing but like yes maybe this episode's growing on me the more we talk about it because like when when she's talking about like i fucked up i broke my own rules you wanted the mysterious sort of like mona lisa yes you know thing that you're chasing and i was vulnerable with you and then you're you don't want it you're tired of it i thought that was really good it's a great characterization.

44:51They've really done a lot to make the two of them work together. And yeah, for like maybe at points, especially in that fight, things feel a little stilted performance wise between the two of them. But together as a pair, they have the thing you can't fake. Like there is a real magnetic chemistry between them that I will watch as much of that as we have left. Unfortunately, fleetingly little of it. Not much. Okay. Actually, before we go, Joe. Of course. I have one thing I want to put to you. There's a trope in this episode that I think we need a name for. and it is when a character is literally trying to outrun their problems in the way that John does in this show.

45:25Like, shit's hitting the fan. I gotta go run. I gotta get some exercise.

45:30Rob:Cue the radio head. Cue the radio head. Yeah. I have two proposals for you, but I'm open to any suggestions you may have. Before we get there, given that we talked this week on the pit episode about your tennis proclivities, would you ever go work out your anger in a game of tennis? Oh, absolutely. Okay. I would consider, and many people who play tennis would probably agree, every game of tennis is working out something or another. It's like a stuffy graph, sort of like you make noises kind of moment. That's not me personally. Okay. It's less about a physical exertion and more just like it is a mindfuck of a sport.

46:05Rob:What's better for exercise, you know, as the JFK of the ringer? What is for you the better? I write it that too soon. the better way for you to to exercise your demons is it basketball or is it tennis oh it's podcasting this is this is my therapy joe i don't know what to tell you you're on the clock i think our listener we think we put the listeners on the clock for for you know okay uh what are your what are your suggestions for outrunning your problems and i would love any suggestions from our listeners on this too prestigetv at spotify.com i mean one of them simple trauma jog go for a little trauma jog uh-huh the other one strava of the soul it's a little more abstract wow but do you have a preference between those or do you have any other ideas to throw on the table already on a friday afternoon we're trying i think trauma jog is really good because it you know it invokes trauma bond which is an actual thing so a trauma jog um i do feel trauma bonded to JFK Jr.

47:05after this show. I mean, our guy is going through it.

47:09Rob:I don't think it's a bad way. Here's my frustration with that. I don't think going outside for a jog is a terrible way to process your inner turmoil that is just feels out of control. I don't think you should then judge how someone else decides to do it, right? So when he comes home and he's like, you're still in front of the television, that's bad. And I'm like, listen, we all process the way we process. And if you want to go jog and have a cigarette, an illicit cigarette, you can go do that. And if she wants to sit shell-shocked in front of the television, she can do that. I like this nonjudgmental space, especially for a guy who recently was trying to get over some breakup trauma by accidentally killing a dog.

47:51So, I mean, you could do better.

47:54Rob:I find chaotic emotions are best processed through some sort of physical activity. I think that is true. I would not do it. What's the power ranking? I mean, tennis off the table for you, clearly. So what are we doing? It's like a, you know, like, well, I like to, I'm a weightlifter. So I like to lift heavy objects. I'm not a weightlifter, but I do lift weights. You're a professional weightlifter. Yeah, absolutely. It's, yeah, lifting heavy objects helps process turbulent emotions. We should get John. But anyway, when he was like, I'm going for a run, and she's like, what? I was like, no, I get it.

48:29Rob:Like he's going to move his body to like get the emotions out. That's great. Just don't then come back and shame someone else because they didn't do it that way. You know, it's very fair. I do think it's a little sudden. Like, yeah, you need to work through some stuff. Clearly, this is hitting him in a very unique way. Diana's death was like such a everyone in front of the TV, like rally together moment. It's like the post 9-11 sort of like, yeah, the TV's on all day. Yes. And especially with Diana, because the news broke and they did not know whether or not she was in critical condition, but she hadn't died yet.

49:04Rob:So people were absolutely glued to their television to find out what was going to happen to her. So, yeah, you can also his whole like who watches TV during the day on a beautiful summer's day. All the rules at Iannisport, I mean, card games, but no board games. Blackout curtains exist for a reason. It was a lot. Yeah. This family, the Kennedys. What are you going to do with them? Did I ever tell you about the time that I got turned away from the Kennedy combat? What minute are we into this podcast and you are a Kennedy refugee? I was reminded when John was like, some people think Cape Cod is the most beautiful place or whatever.

49:47Rob:My friend and I were just driving around Cape Cod. We went to Cape Cod during, I had never been. we went during covid because it was just sort of like let's go stay in a remote cabin by the shore and like not be around people if we can and then i don't know if you did this during covid but i did a lot of like driving around because you're in like the sealed bubble of the car but you are seeing things at the same time and so we drove around the cape and then there was just like we were just like driving around some back road and all of a sudden we were like at a gate and there were scary scary people and they're like you're gonna have to turn around and i was like oh can me turn around in this driveway here?

50:21Rob:He's like, no. And I was like, okay. So I made like a 900 point turn to like awkwardly turn around and leave. And then we like looked up on the map. We were like, oh, that was the Kennedy conference. That makes sense. You were in a sniper scope in that moment. They were like, what is her whole deal? What is she up to? What eco-terrorism is this woman about to perpetrate? I didn't smell a whiff of coffee. I'll tell you that much right now. It's just salt air. All right. Well, this has been a really productive episode of the press to do TV podcast. We'll be back for the finale. Thank you to Rob Mahoney.

50:52Rob:Thanks to Dev Rinaldo. Thanks to everyone here at Sycamore who's helping us make this show on a Friday afternoon. Joe, thank you. And thank the security guards at the Kennedy compound for doing their job, showing up, doing the work. Thanks to the JFK of the Ringer, Rob Mahoney. We'll see you back for more Pitt. Bye.

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