‘Pluribus’ Season 1 Finale: “La Chica o El Mundo.” Plus, End of the Year Mailbag

27:01Rob:It's kind of a flash. It's a flash forward in a way relative to where we are, temporally speaking. I think the whole episode might feel a little bit different. And maybe you would even understand Carol's perspective a little bit more if you didn't have this glimpse of this is what happens, right? The end game looks like this. And it is bleak and just like a disaster culturally speaking. Yeah, it's just like silence and sleeping on the floor in an empty arena um lots of folks have been sort of emailing us all season about this question of are we procreating in a hive mind reality and zosha did last week talk about all the babies that had been born sure but i was just thinking about there was this like really funny tweet that someone pointed out where they're like show me the hive mind baby that is just like walking around fully formed knows everything like blah blah like that's uncanny in this sort of like creepy alley mcbeal baby or whatever but they want the boss baby treatment that's what they want out of this show i mean it was a funny tweet the reality is these would be silent babies there would be no talking no crying no any of that because all of that is like communication verbal communication so these would be eerie silent like still babies and that's a silent baby flying a private jet landing a helicopter picking up an atom bomb and dropping it off in albuquerque yeah all very normal stuff yeah um it's so true though yeah i mean the like i think we still have those big picture questions about what is the hive mind's interest in kind of direct human propagation clearly it wants to spread this way of life to other planets and other galaxies and build the big satellite and all that stuff but all the babies that are being born are being like those we already conceived right i don't think we've been given any indication 70 days only so right yeah yeah so like i don't think we've been given any indication that the hive mind is interested in actually creating new babies, just that obviously given their code, they wouldn't get rid of the babies.

29:13Rob:If they don't even plan to make it past 10 years, you know, like with their current approach. And I think that's really - Is it even moral to bring a baby into a world if you think your species will only survive 10 years? Great question. Is it moral to convert Carol at all into your way of being if you're only going to survive 10 years? um our uh our our listeners who are startlingly pro hive mind uh i thought it was interesting that like some of them in their email they're like well if they don't plan to procreate then of course there is something wrong with them you know they don't plan to uh you know continue the species yeah well if they're not fucking what's the point but like if they're not if they're not going to continue the species then of course this is a betrayal of like whatever but i think if you're gonna wipe out all music that is also like an equal violation of what it means to be alive and a human on this planet so anyway speaking of art i just want to uh talk about the ursula kayla gwynn book she's reading left hand of darkness um which is a very good book for carol to be reading because it's about someone from one planet coming to another planet as an ambassador of like come join our federation of planets and the difficulty they have communicating the gender fluidity of the culture the telepathic way of talking there's just like a lot of stuff that's in that book that is clearly sort of here we got emails about left hand of darkness earlier when we were going through like sort of all the inspos for the season so i just liked that carol was straight up reading it um poolside with okay poolside with what looked to me like hot chocolate oh was it really there was like it was a mug with a cup of coffee with whipped cream on top could be a frappuccino poolside coco i don't know about that it's a no ski chalet coco yes poolside coco no absolutely not but once all of the you know the strictures of cultural life have been ripped away are you eating soup pool side like what are you doing rob if all the if all the guardrails are off and you can do whatever you want to do no you're right like you there's some things you just can't eat in that environment and a hot cocoa in particular just doesn't really sound pleasant at all with like a thick layer of whipped cream on top absolutely not never not once um but would that be your choice of reading material joe if you were living more or less these exact circumstances would you want to read frighteningly similar sci-fi?

31:55Rob:I think if I were a fantasy writer like Carol, maybe I would be like, let's consult the texts of my contemporaries to sort of see, I don't know. But that's something that I would expect Carol of a few episodes to do. But Carol, who is like absolutely committed to, you know, the Kumba style of, I'm just like gonna jet around the world and do whatever the fuck I want. It does seem like to be oddly challenging reading material for her in that moment. Seriously. Also, not to judge any writer's output, but our girl wrote one chapter and then it's like, I'm good. I'm going to jump on this plane. I'm going to go, you know, again, like enjoy the ski chalet in which the lift stops for me as soon as I get off of it and I can just leave all my gear out here.

32:42It seems great. I don't know. She just didn't seem, didn't seem that interested in providing future chapters for Zosia and Co.

32:48Rob:I think you're right, Rob. I think, but who among us? Have not experienced writer's block. Again, this is why I'm not trying to be too judgmental about it, but her priorities are laid pretty cleanly. Yeah. I wanted to read this email we got about the use of time in this. I think specifically since we start this episode, particularly with a jump forward 11 days and then we're back to, you know, so it's 71 days and then 60 days. Um, so someone who's only identified in this email as GTH, um, wrote Pluribus to me is a deeply terrifying show because of its relationship to time. It's very useful as an establishment mechanism, the bright white clock going forwards or backwards, a way to orient us into the story helps us make sense of the images and sounds we're hearing.

33:36Rob:But every time the forward clock comes up for me, it's a punch to the gut. Last episode, we saw that it's been 60 days that our characters have lived in this new world of empty cities, free door dash, the closest thing humans can equate to godlike power thrust upon them, cannibals you can coerce into great sex, and the confirmation that life exists outside our world. The fact that there are at most 12 people, now 11, left to defend the entire world from that is so scary to me. The genius of the show is that the gorgeous candy-colored soap opera happening in the foreground makes these 60 quick days even more terrifying.

34:10Rob:60 days of living in that mystery, gone like that, and it's normal now. It's done. it's over move on I don't think I could handle that truly a miracle that Carol and everyone else immune didn't go insane in that first episode strong-minded lead characters in this show which is part of the reason I love it so I thought that was a great email um absolutely and also one of those things Joe that I think is most COVID coded about this kind of experience of living and watching this world is just that disconnect from oh it feels like a blink in some ways since Helen died. It feels like that happened yesterday.

34:42And yet, there's so much time separating these things and so little in a way that, like, I don't know what would be a healthy response 60 to 70 days after basically the end of the world. Like, I don't know what we're supposed to be doing or Carol's supposed to be doing at this moment.

34:55Rob:Yeah, I know. And I mean, well, maybe checking out books from the library on Faraday cages and, you know, making a plan with Menousos. But like, I think it's interesting because in the early episodes, we're like, Like, give her a break. It's only been a week. Give her a break. It's only been 10 days. And now we're like, okay, Carol. It's been two months. 40 days of which she spent alone and kind of lost her marbles. So, like, Carol having lost her marbles a bit and getting them back together is a way in which I can, like, hang with her through the tough look of this episode. But, yeah. Team Manusos.

35:30Rob:Team, I have a purpose. Team, I'm experimenting with radio frequencies. Yeah. Team Snap, baby. Let's go. Would you respond to a snap, Rob? I'm sure I have at some point, right? Like inevitably someone has snapped at me before. How did you feel about the motion sensor in the liquor cabinet reveal? This was a great little twist. It was really good. And especially like, you know, visually you can obviously see it before he ever kind of fumbles into it. When he first moves the liquor bottles and I like gas, I was like. I know. Yeah. There is a bug. But wait, it's something that's actually so much more devastating than that.

36:07And I think as far as like kind of backfooting Carol emotionally throughout this episode, how could you not feel sort of betrayed by your old life in finding that kind of information and finding that kind of reveal about the person you cared about most in the world? And then all of a sudden, yeah, I can kind of get why she would take one stepping stone to think like, well, fuck all that. I'm going to take I'm going to jump on a plane or a helicopter with Zosia and we're going to head off to the beach in the chalet and the pool where I guess she just tells Zosia like, so you go swim in that pool over there and I'm going to read here?

36:39Like how much prescription is necessary for all this?

36:43Rob:It's so depressing. Go do laps while I watch you and read my book. I mean, well, look, some people are probably into that sort of thing. It feels depressing when you need to do it on a full-time, constant, ongoing basis at minimum. But to the Helen point of this like we know so little about their relationship a lot of it is just impressionistic after the fact like we've learned more about who helen is after her death than we ever got to see of her alive and this feels like something that even with how little we know that that character might do that that character might like there's a breathalyzer on the range rover you know i mean yeah yeah like clearly clearly drinking is a like capital p problem for carol to the point that it has to be monitored throughout her life and yeah if you're gonna be freezing your eggs like it feels like a fair a fair consideration for someone like helen and yet it also feels like a betrayal absolutely um never having known about it from helen having to hear helen's true feelings about better chrysalis having to discover that helen put a motion sensor on here and helen doesn't get to like as someone who loves her explain to her why you know she did this betrayal i don't think there's like a clean explanation but it's it would be different no coming from helen versus like learning about it without a doubt the way in which zozja i don't i don't think anyone's lying to carol but the but the placating the um when munisios is first arriving and carol's like is that the guy i yelled to on the plane and zozja's like well you were going you were dealing with a lot like that really insidious like you're always right you're justified in your actions like that sort of comfort that she offers her is so sticky uh inside of this world and so like yeah you want you understand why people fall for it you absolutely do it's just hard to watch carol hold out and then fall for it um and then you know return return to the cul-de-sac but it is persuasive and i think the difference is look the broad pitch was not persuasive to carol as far as what the hive mind is after and their mission and that but a more physical living embodiment of it through zosia and someone who you're attracted to who cares about you who's expressing all of this and living with you and i think you know for all the talk about time that we were just going through like if you were living 30 really intense days with the only other person you're in contact with on the planet, you're just going to have a weird hyper-connected bond that is kind of inexplicable, that transcends any normal human relationship.

39:25Rob:Who was in your COVID bubble? You know what I mean? Like, it was a great tester of relationships, but also like formed some real trauma bonds. So yeah. All right. Anything, I mean, like, I don't know. I don't really feel inclined to go like specifically beat by beat through this episode. I will shout out our listeners because we did get emails about Faraday cages and frequencies like a couple weeks ago. So shout out to you guys for always being ahead of the game. I like did the Leo pointing meme when I saw the spine of one of the books said Faraday cages. I was like, our listeners are so good.

40:00Rob:Anything else you want to say about Manusos and his plan or their interaction or the use of the translator app inside of this episode, which I thought was a never ending source of comedy. Oh, for sure. What do you think? Especially when it was locked inside the sewer grate. And I thought it was just going to stay there, kind of idly speaking out throughout the episode. But Minusos did fish it out, to his credit. I mean, Minusos in this episode, incredibly resourceful. Even the idea that he's like, grabbing these books on Faraday cages and like pretty advanced physics and translating word by word everything he doesn't understand.

40:36And you can't knock the hustle of this man, clearly. He's just driven himself and hiked himself from Paraguay. So shout out to Manusos for his endless devotion to the idea of, if not fixing the world, I guess eradicating everyone on it at this point. I find his philosophy and his code to be fascinating and contradictory. And Carol kind of calls him on it in terms of the ambulance part of it. And there's ways in which it makes total sense. and there's ways in which it just like fails to really stand up to a lot of reason. But when he broaches the subject of specifically, is it evil to regard the life of an ant and the life of a human completely equally?

41:19Like, is that evil? And I don't know that I would put evil on it, but it is something. And it's something that we clearly aren't willing to do ever with most sources of life on this planet, not just ants, but any other really animal that is subhuman, subhuman, that is not human.

41:36Rob:Yeah. How dare you disrespect me? Look at my human elitism. Your rugged human individualism. I think that Manusos with his, like, you know, his, his, the spirit of his conviction, but also his like religious conviction, you know, like the use of evil here and how that soul and how that ties into, you know, part of what drives him. and Carol does not have that as sort of an inspiration. But yeah, I would bump on the word evil and I did. But I was also like, but like philosophically, let's think about it, like regarding the life of the human, the same as an ant. Yes. I mean, if you put it to the real test of like, if you had the opportunity to save the life of an ant versus a human and you chose the ant, maybe that is evil.

42:25I don't know about evil,

42:26Rob:but I would have some questions for you. I would certainly have some questions. that part goes without saying but yeah i think the you know evil implies a certain level of malice that i think the hive mind doesn't really seem to exhibit at least as far as we understand them so far yeah yeah like i think there's ways in which they're manipulative and i want to maybe touch on some of those too in particular uh when zosha is trying to like hard sell carol on you know becoming one with the universe yeah tell me i think it's very specifically when she busts out the like no i love you we love you but also i love you and just kind of reciting the thing that she has been taught to say to carol back to her and exactly the way you were you were mentioning joe like like zoja has been conditioned to affirm carol at basically every turn i think there's part of that that's just like biological wiring right like they this is a an entity in a i don't know a consciousness a species however you want to define it does do those things see if we had gotten weirdos sooner we could have just full-on adopted weirdos but now it's too late in the game it's the licked and unlicked are right there for us and we will ride with them to the end but there was something so insidious about that to me about i'm gonna say the thing that i'm kind of programmed to say which is that we love you and then i'm gonna say the thing that you told me to say that will make you happy yeah it's like how can you ever feel great about any of this yeah so at least carol figured it out before the end of the episode but um tough to watch her tough look for our guy carol sterka um unknown word um to do all of this um all right anything else you want to say about this episode of television rob mahoney i really enjoyed this season joe me too i know i know we've been picking some nits in terms of this finale it's not the cleanest landing i've ever seen in the world but again going from the place of carol not wanting anything to do with these people to basically being willing to give up all of existence for the sake of living her little life with Zosia is a tremendous accomplishment.

44:32Is a like Breaking Bad kind of arc in its own fast forwarded over the course of one season. And like, where does that leave her to go? Like clearly she can sort of just backtrack into hard skepticism. What do we do with this atom bomb mode? But like, I'm fascinated to know kind of what is the next wave of that emotional development for Carol? Like what do she and Minusos have to work on together other than Faraday cages and electromagnetic fields? And we should say like, not really clear exactly how successful Minusos has been to this point in terms of breaking through to actual Rick within Hivemind Rick as he is seizing up after getting yelled at by Minusos, who clearly knows a thing or two.

45:14Like he must have yelled at these people at some point enough to figure all this out too. so I'm very eager to see how all the mechanics of all that work as far as the season goes I didn't need that stuff yet but I think clearly a lot of viewers did and we're waiting for the sort of like okay we want the next turn of the sci-fi plot and not the next turn of Carol Sturka character study Carol I'm not even gonna try that one no absolutely not just gonna eject I was cool with it for the record like the the the character study season one for carol this is captivating tv i mean

45:50Rob:ray ray sehorn is so good and i think what's interesting is like if you've watched better call saul the love story between jimmy mcgill and kim wexler which ebbs and flows over the course of all of these seasons becomes the show uh in a very important way all of the stakes hinge on it and so I think this idea of like the Zoja Carol relationship and like, what is it? What does it mean? Carol asking about, you know, did you, did the you before, like, I think she's sort of fishing to see if like an, an unlicked Zoja would even be gay. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like what, you know, what, who were you?

46:33Rob:What are you? She's obviously not like constantly interrogating her about that, but like that specific question I thought was interesting, but like, it was like asking, your partner or girlfriend or boyfriend about their exes except their exes might be living within them as an alternate consciousness with you i'm kind of surprised it took us this long to get here frankly so-and-so in the room with us um but like i think i am invested in zoja and this is this is something that's come up a couple times but like i don't know rick so uh You know, I am invested in Minusos liberating original Rick because I believe, and you can call me whatever you want, evil or whatever if you want me to, but I believe original Rick has more of a right to exist than hive mind Rick.

47:20Rob:I don't know why that's my philosophy, but that's my philosophy. With Zoja, I don't know original Zoja. I only know the licked version of Zoja. Sorry, phrasing. But original Zoja still does have more of a right to exist than hive mind Zoja does. I know, but that's a harder question to answer. And that's why this show is really good. And I really loved, I loved watching the show. I love talking to you about the show. And I loved hearing from our listeners about the show. And I feel really grateful that that something like this exists that constantly inspires these like, is it even living if there isn't art questions or like who has a better right to exist or etc, etc.

47:58And that's what I want this show to always be.

48:03Rob:Not like necessarily what are we going to do with the atomic bomb, but like what philosophically should one do with the power of an atomic bomb at your fingertips, you know? Well, they made movies about that one too, I think. Have they? I've never heard of it. Definitely didn't watch it with you. No, absolutely not. So, you know, it's a great question. Anything else you want to say about Pluribus? I think in that vein this has been such a rich show for thought and exploration and philosophy and like I mean it really brought me back full circle to covering acceptance with you at the beginning of the year Joe because I feel like these are the two shows that we've gotten this year that really delve into that space and and or in various ways as well as far as like bigger ideas about life and culture and fascism and resistance and all those things but these are a little bit more existential and in a different way in a maybe more literal way I think I At its best, though I don't think it was at its best this season, but I think at its best, White Lotus can also do a version of that.

49:06Rob:But yeah, yeah. We're lucky to get – thank you, Apple. Thanks, Steve Jobs and the rest for – They're really paying you, Joe. I don't like thinking a tech company, but your commitment to sci-fi television is exemplary. And Severance and Pluribus being bookends to this year is, you know, I feel really lucky to have them. So, yeah. There really is something to that. I don't know what it is about Apple's programming or the powers that be that are particularly sci-fi inclined. But we've seen it across some of the properties that they've developed. And some of it is just like who has the money to do this stuff, whether it's Pluribus or otherwise.

49:47I'm glad that somebody does whether it's Apple or anyone else I'm glad that a show like this can exist This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business and even this podcast That's why I trust Spectrum Business They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet advanced wifi, phone, TV, mobile services plus 24-7 US-based support Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.

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51:01Earn more on your savings with the SoFi Bank High Yield Savings Account. Ditch your higher interest credit card debt with a SoFi personal loan or start investing on an easy-to-use platform with SoFi Invest. Wherever you are on your financial journey, SoFi has got you covered. Learn more at SoFi.com slash Spotify. I'm glad I get to talk about it with you, Joe.

51:22Rob:Same, Rob. Do you want to hit us with some of these mailbag questions? Joe, I want to start with this question we got from Lauren, who asked, you know, for those who haven't been following along every show to every show with us, how you and I got started podcasting together. Where do you want to start with that story? I believe, because I checked the record, it's April 2023. Wow. And it is, I know, it's longer than I thought it was. Speaking of temporal dissonance, I don't like hearing that, but also I love hearing that. It was Love and Death, right? Was the first episode we did, right? Was it?

51:59Rob:Wasn't it? What do you think it was? I think it was Fleischman is in trouble. Oh, you said that the other day. Okay, well, that might be earlier. Why don't you say what you remember and I will consult the record. what i remember is that this was a bill simmons matchmaking podcast matchmaking of i think you guys would podcast well together and guess what he was right yeah guess what it's been super fun i don't know what like chemistry or alchemy bill sees in the universe but apparently he's he's got it going on sometimes you're right because like poker face was even before um okay so that brings us back to god well here's the point the the prestige tv podcast feed in the year of our lord 20 this is november 2022 oh boy wow wow wow um anyway um the the prestige feed used to be a much more chaotic place and i with love and respect okay no you and i i did november was with Sean December 2022.

52:59Rob:I did that with you. Okay. So I used to get just messages from Bill and he was like, I want you to do this show with this person. And oftentimes it was someone that I'd never met before. And it would just be like my introduction to a person would be a podcast. And so correct me if I'm wrong, but we had never had a conversation before we did. No. Flyshipping is in trouble. So that's our first. So if you want to hear our first conversation together it's recorded holds up yeah i wonder what that joe and rob are like you know like did they have bits did they have banter i don't even know what we were like back then but i will say that like uh you came so prepared um and then we did talk about poker face after that and then love and death but um i think i think about love and death a lot because we were talking about being texan and that's the first time i ever heard you make your favorite joke which is like my culture is not your costume.

53:53Rob:And that's one of my favorite. You don't have to air out the fact that I'm reusing jokes out here. Every time it's new and fresh, I promise. But you came so prepared. And also like you and I talked about when we covered Poker Face week to week, like just sort of the how nice it is to sort of dig deep into something and just sort of spend several weeks with it. So like previously, though, we had covered shows like Succession, et cetera, et cetera, on the feed. it wasn't necessarily the norm to have like we're going to cover a full season of television that's something that you and i like to do or at least i like to do and you have decided to do it as well um i knew you from twitter mostly since i'm not a basketball person i didn't like i wasn't really aware of your work very much um but that is that is how i and then you yeah you you're like oh my wife and i love dr who and i love buffy and all this other stuff like that so that was helpful in feeling like we spoke the same language, I guess.

54:49Rob:Yes. I mean, I think that was pretty clear as soon as we started potting together. And you're right. I think the way that the feed has sort of settled is a lot in what we are interested in talking about and the way we want to cover TV. And getting from the like, here's a one-off Fleischman or Love and Death pod to here is every episode of Poker Face or every episode of whatever is just like a totally different kind of coverage. And ultimately, I'm on the same page as you. It's just more inviting to invest in that kind of way. That's what I like listening to. Yeah, me too. I want to be along for the journey of a season of a show with people I like hearing from.

55:26And it's great when they do it on a little one-off basis as well. And we certainly still do that from time and again, depending on what the show is. But it's just a different thing when you're covering a full season.

55:36Rob:It's true. All right. what do you want to answer next why don't we go just straight down straight down the dock joe one more thing really quickly please you live in the bay area you lived in the bay area at the time and so that was like an added thing not that like we saw each other that much but like occasionally we like went to screenings or whatever so that was just like there were very few at that time and now even fewer ringer people in in northern california so that was like a thing too i mean yeah there was a weird little bay area kind of stronghold that developed over time but you know just just a couple of us holding out and increasingly not holding out so much so you know what it's dissolved at this point yeah but i i do think i had you at a slight disadvantage just from for the sake of like i had been listening to your podcast for a long time and so the fact that i was able to come in like i know the joanna robinson brand you know i i know i know how this this tends to go and i am eager to participate in it because I love listening to you, especially covering Game of Thrones.

56:36So, you know, like sometimes we just luck into these things and you get a text from Bill that's like, hey, do you want to cover a new show with one of your favorite podcasters? Yeah, I think I'd like to do that.

56:45Rob:Well, I feel very lucky and I'm really excited for next year because there's like a bunch of stuff that I'm really excited to cover with you. So. Well, why don't we why don't we jump there, Joe? Michael emailed us to ask, what are your top five most anticipated shows for 2026? I do have a list for this. Let me pull it up. I also have a list. I also, I was trying to not go to things that we talk about all the time. Okay. You know, what are some other shows that are not just like, look, the actual answer might be the pit season two, but that's kind of goes without saying. We're going to return to many of the shows that we've been covering in the past, including the pit.

57:24One show I want to get you up on though, Joe,

57:26Rob:is paradise have you seen paradise season one as of yet no i have not i'm i'm just gonna i'm just gonna you know drop little breadcrumbs here and there when is it coming back into that world there was like a there was a trailer for it was there not so the date that i'm seeing is february 23rd 2026 we will see if that is indeed true uh i was gonna say if it comes back in a time that's like a little quiet i would happily commit to that uh for you rob but we're gonna be pitting and still industrying i think and night of the seven kingdoming uh so um but but i will consider it i promise to consider this is all i ask okay a batshit insane show and a like heavy premise show that i don't know what they're gonna do with season two and i'm very eager to see what is one of your most anticipated shows, Jo?

58:23Rob:Well, what's interesting to me is that this is a really good year for Prestige TV and a really bad year for House of R, I think. The genre podcast that I do, just in case folks don't listen to both. And next year, a lot of the shows that I have on my list. Let me stop you right there. Not for House of R, but for the things that House of R covers. For genre content. And thank you so much, Rob. Thanks for that clarification. And look, as a listener, I got to stand up for it. You know, I got to throw myself in front of it. on the sword in front of the bullet, whatever the metaphor is. I think that the Marvel offerings next year, which are Wonder Man and Vision Quest, are actually kind of intriguing to me in a way that I haven't felt for a while with Marvel shows.

59:04Rob:Lanterns on HBO is something I'm very excited about. And then The Vampire List At, which is Interview with Vampire Season 3, is very, very high on my list. um anything else you have that is not paradise or pitting or industry i have one more after that but anyway oh yeah uh buffy the vampire slayer have you heard of it

59:29Rob:what are we gonna do coming out in 2026 what are we gonna do look i'm just gonna lay it down right now uh that cannot be a joe and mal only house of our joy i refuse to be boxed out of buffy content i kind of agree i mean we'll talk to mal about it but i kind of agree and i think mal will agree I will fight Mal if I have to fight Mal. I'm just saying right now. We proved that we could do the three of us together with Alien Earth. So, yeah, I would feel very weird covering a Buffy show without both of you.

1:00:01Rob:I really hope it's good. I'm really worried. I don't know, but I just hope. I hope and dream. I was curious about FX because usually there's like an FX show that I'm excited about. And I was looking at the FX offering and I was like, I don't know. But I was told by someone who I trust that love story, which does have Ryan Murphy's name on it. So I was worried. But I was told that perhaps it is a bit more like People vs. OJ than it is another sort of Ryan. But this is the JFK Jr. Carolyn Bessette story. And I have been told that it is actually quite good. I have not seen it. But I trust this person.

1:00:41Rob:I was like, I know you would not burn your cred with me over a Ryan Murphy show. Over a love story. So I trust that person. But yeah, it's an interesting year coming up. I'm really excited. I think it's going to be good. I think there's going to be a lot of good stuff. I mean, Beef Season 2 is kind of jumping off the page for me too. If you're not familiar with the cast of Beef Season 2, Oscar Isaac, Carrie Mulligan, Charles Melton, Kaylee Spaney, Song fucking Kang Ho on television. Let's go. who's on my wall always. I think that like, you watch Knives Out, right? Yes. Wake Up Deadman. Of all the people where I'm like, why are you here?

1:01:24Rob:That use of Kaylee Spaney was like really confusing to me. Kaylee Spaney comma cellist didn't do it for you? This is not how I would use her. Okay, what do you - It's honestly a problem with a lot of that cast to the point that, you know what? I have a relevant hook, Joe. I want to jump to a question from Carly, who was asking us about this upcoming season of White Lotus, which has been heavily rumored to be snowbound in some way, ski resort, White Lotus. The details are still being sussed out. Yes, Cold Lotus. And who we would like to see on that show. Carly pointed out John Cusack as an option that I think would actually be quite good.

1:02:00Bob Balaban, one of our faves as far as the requisite Christopher Guest spot. Who would you like to see on a Cold Lotus season?

1:02:07Rob:I'm so glad you said this because I just want to let you know that one of my bullet points that I wrote in my notes here at the top of this list that I came up with was Rob do you want something different from a White Lotus cast that you want from a Knives Out cast like do you like do you want the same thing or do you want something different I'm just treating it as a do-over so my relevant uh Knives Out casting is I want to give Andrew Scott more to do on this version of White Lotus to do yeah I mean had some had some good laughs and wake up dead man but ultimately they just didn't know what to do with any of those supporting players in them.

1:02:39Anyone who's not Josh O 'Connor or Josh Brolin, even including Daniel Craig, I would say in that movie, they don't quite know what to do with.

1:02:46Rob:Glenn Close, I think, got something to do. That's true. Honestly, fair point. Glenn Close is pretty good. Why is Mila Kunis here? Why is Andrew Scott here? Yeah, exactly. That's Deputy Mila Kunis to you. Thank you so much. On the Knives Out front, the Knives Out people that I would bring over here is actually, I would go back to the first Knives Out movie and I would bring either Tony Collette or Don Johnson to the White Lotus. I think both of them would be very delightful. On the Christopher Guest front, I believe we deserve Catherine O 'Hara at the White Lotus. And I don't know what I have to do to get it.

1:03:17Rob:I don't want Moira Rose there necessarily, because like I, but I want Catherine O 'Hara in increasingly ridiculous fur hats. I don't think we're getting Cold Lotus, but like I'm willing to play this game. Rose Byrne, who's like equally good at comedy and drama. and I'm just like a huge, huge fan of, obviously, this is a big year for Rose Byrne. So maybe she thinks she's too good for White Lotus now, but I don't know. And then I should say there's a casting rumor going around from the infinitely unreliable Dumois. Not your source for casting news, let me just say. But on the list, Rachel Weisz.

1:03:58Rob:And Maya Rudolph. I mean, you don't need to twist my arm in either case. That sounds wonderful. Anyone else see you over here? I also, I mean, if you ask me to cast anything, wish cast or otherwise, Dan Stevens is always on my list. Yes, that's such a good one. That's a perfect one. So let's get Dan Stevens at the White Lotus. That's so good. Is he English or American? Great question. I think, honestly, I like him playing American because he comes off as so weird when he does his American accent that I think it kind of works for like the arch white lotus stuff. I would love to see Palm Clemente in something like this.

1:04:34I think she, you know, I've enjoyed certainly the Guardians experience. Also the Mission Impossible crazy stabby experience. Both those versions of Palm I really liked a lot. But let's see her as like, you know, a bougie woman of leisure. I think she could really pull it off.

1:04:48Rob:Very good. All right. What's next? Why don't we go to some other of our shows that we covered this year, non-White Lotus Division, Joe. We got an email from Roy. If Pluribus took place in the world of severance, what do you think would happen to the severed employees? So we're just like layering sci-fi on top of sci-fi to understand our literacy. Yeah, we kind of tried to talk about this. I did a really bad job trying to talk about this the other day on the pod, I think. Right. Leaving the habitat would, quote, kill them and staying wouldn't help the hive mind at all. is immune, what would that be like?

1:05:24Rob:I mean, this is making my brain goo, honestly, trying to think about this. Do you have a good answer for this? Well, so everything that's happening with the hive mind is sort of electromagnetic, and everything that's happening in severance is more like strictly hardware. I guess it's also electromagnetic. Is it hardware? I mean, there's a physical chip in there. There's a thing. yeah there's a thing in there but would a frequency override the thing ultimately this is like how much faith you have in technology and my answer these days is i have faith in it for roughly two and a half years and then the planned obsolescence will phase out and you need to get your new severance chip upgrade so maybe it would save you for a time but ultimately it's not gonna keep you separated from the hive mind forever sounds right they will find their way with a smile with a smile uh but let's let's zoom all the way out joe we got an email from chris who was asking for our top shows of 2025 uh he asked for a top 10 i'm gonna trim it to a top five just because we got other emails to get through uh what were you have like a definitive top five this year was this an easy exercise for you yes i think so um i'm and or number one is the easiest thing i could possibly do and you still haven't seen and or season two correct I'm not trying to call you out.

1:06:45Rob:I'm just going to gently pressure you. I have it here with a hard asterisk because I am so certain this would be in my top five if I had completed the season and I just haven't gotten there yet. So maybe in my sick days ahead, Andor I'll be watching. I've already been doing some West Wing comfort watching. We're going to find room for some real heavy hitters in here. I would say it's Andor number one easily. The pit number two easily for me. Task number three. That has a lot to do with our experience covering it, I think. Yes. Adolescence. It's really hard to separate those at this point. And that's what I love about what we do, honestly, because it's just like, it deepens my love and understanding of these various properties.

1:07:22Rob:I feel really lucky. So, Andor the Pit, Task, Adolescence. I honestly think before the Pluribus finale, Pluribus might have taken the fifth spot. But I gotta say, I also watched the Heated Rivalry finale this week, and it was really, really good. So, I think I'm putting Heated Rivalry. It's going up for number five? Number five. Yeah. Okay, now I definitely need to watch Heated Rivalry. That's recency bias. That's like me still like brushing the tears out of my eyes as I finish the season. But I got to vote with my heart. So that's what I got. What about you? I'm very glad we're aligned on The Pit.

1:07:56The Pit is my highest show that is not Andor because I have not seen Andor. So for me at this point, The Pit is number one. Adolescence number two. And that's a hard one for me. I think Adolescence is quite technically perfect within the scope of what it's trying to do.

1:08:11Rob:but it's also limited series versus full series. It is a tough rewatch. And I think the volume and the high wire act of what the pit is doing over the course of its full season to me registered and really hit me emotionally even harder than adolescence did, which is really saying something. But adolescence number two, I had severance number three, task number four. And I did put in pluribus as number five, although my heated rivalry is the chair company. That might be the one that's really threatening my list. I should say it. For some of us, it's hockey erotica. For some of us, it's weirdos on a journey of following the rabbit hole as deep as it goes.

1:08:47Rob:You keep using the phrase erotica, and I just don't think that that is quite - Is it not? I don't know. I don't think so. It's smutty. Hockey softcore? Yeah. Hockey softcore. Okay. I don't mean to overstate. Again, I have not seen an episode. I'm only going off of the impressions that other people have given me. I think erotica indicates like a, there's like a level of unseriousness that heated rivalry has. Oh, I don't mean to imply that at all, frankly. Right. Like melodrama, sure, but unseriousness, no. No, it is unserious. Is it? In a way. So it is erotica. No, I think erotica is like too like.

1:09:27Rob:Too high minded? Yeah, kind of. Oh, wow. I thought this was going very differently. This is smutty. it's also very emotional and like very well done but it's all it's like normal people but even more sex i guess is what i would say would you call normal people erotica like i don't think you would you know i it's it's a fair question it really borders on the line at some points and it's not emotional erotica because it's i mean that show just messes you up so it's not really hitting the same pleasure points that you might hope it would so i think i would not and you would put it in a similar genre?

1:10:03Rob:I mean, heated rivalry is, I don't know. Let's talk about it once. The normal people of our time. I can't wait. It kind of is. Once you've seen it, let's talk about it. I think it'll be interesting. I would also say on my long list, Severance, White Lotus, The Studio, Taskmaster, which I know we have a question about, definitely was like an incredible season and The Lowdown. So, yeah. Well, let's jump straight to that Taskmaster question, which is actually from my friend Eileen, who wants to know about a huge Joanna Robinson fan, I should say. Would love to hear, she hears my thoughts all the time i think she really wants to hear your thoughts on taskmaster series 19 um and any champions of champions related hopes uh for for the fourth special so eileen can i just say unfortunately i like spoiled myself when i was like googling like who's on the champion of champions again and then like stupid google told me who won the thing so that's okay that's my that's my fault i should have known better how do you feel about those overall like do you like the taskmaster specials as much as the proper seasons so champion of champions is when they take the winners of like the previous five season then put them all together and they've done it sort of sporadically across the series i don't like them as much as a full season because it here's so my answer about taskmaster series 19 which was a huge breakout moment for taskmaster in the u.s because jason minzoukas was on and he was like spectacularly oh incredible i you know jason a friend of the ringer not like a personal friend but i did run into him in the courtyard of um of the offices he was there you know recording the watch with with chris and uh you know he's like joanna robinson i was like oh my god jason blah blah and i just grilled him about taskmaster he had not come out yet and i was just like that's all i talked to him about i was like tell me about your experience blah blah blah tell me about this tell me about that um because i'm such a huge other other people out there running into jason like tell me about john wick tell me about how did this get made we are not the same.

1:11:52Joe just wants to know the ins and outs of the Taskmaster production experience.

1:11:56Rob:I did. I was like, do they ever... I had a lot of very specific questions for him. But he was phenomenal on the show. And it got a lot of people in my life who have never watched Taskmaster to watch it because a lot of his clips went viral and stuff like that. And he was a huge fan of the show before he went on. But for me, a joy of any season of Taskmaster where they take five comedians and sort of you spend all season with them doing tasks, stuff like that, is getting to know people that I had never seen before. So Jason, I'm familiar with his exquisite comedy. But Fatia Al-Ghuri, I had never seen before.

1:12:32Rob:And she's just like such a rock star in that season. She's so funny. So that was like my standout was like getting to know her. The moment when she was talking about her Batman themed childhood bedroom, I will never forget. So that's... She's an all-timer as far as Taskmaster contestants go. And to the point that her and Greg's relationship, as far as in the studio, debriefing all of these tasks is just one of the best things I've ever seen on the show. I do think in terms of the tasks, the one that I will take away, and it's the easiest pull for me from Series 19, is the P-Olympics, which I think is in episode one.

1:13:13What I love about Taskmaster is the descent into madness of these contestants who are used to being pretty good at things and are disastrously bad at like throwing a pee and then needing to go find it. In a field somewhere. In a field. And also, you know, Jason deciding that the best way to catch a pee coming out of a catapult is to put his face right next to the catapult and just launch it directly into his mouth. So innovation happening right before our eyes.

1:13:36Rob:I will also say Matthew Bainton's extremely tiny shorts that he decided to wear the entire season is the gift that keeps on giving. How do the contestants not know at this point that if you show up in, for example, a Bruce Lee outfit, that it will come to haunt you when you need to do it every day for the rest of the season. I don't know. When your last name is Wang, you can do whatever you want, I think, at that point. You gotta lean into it. You gotta lean in, yeah. But for the champions, I will just say, for the champions of champions, even though that has been spoiled for me as to who won, Sam Campbell, who's been like, was a real standout in his season, I'm excited to watch him back in the studio again.

1:14:16Rob:That'll be really fun. I know it is. I think main series are the best thing that Taskmaster has going. I've actually heard great things about it. I think it's the New Zealand offshoot of Taskmaster. I've watched some New Zealand Taskmaster. Australia Taskmaster is also really funny. Yes. American infamously not funny. Just a train wreck. Just really bad. Champion of Champions, good, but you're right. Like you're missing that kind of like connective tissue building up over a long period of time with these people. I think the celebrity like holiday themed specials are probably the least of them to me just because it's sometimes that sometimes the contestants just don't even know quite what they're getting.

1:14:53Right.

1:14:53Rob:And they're like not as game for like, you know, making asses of themselves. So sometimes they are. Eileen, if you ever want to just like talk to me directly about Taskmaster, I am available. Let me know. This is going to make her day. I will I will make the connection. Joe, I want to jump to this question from Anthony. of all the TV shows that aired in 2025, which character crossover would you like to see? For example, Dr. Robbie from the Pit appearing as one of the doctors treating Zoja and Pluribus or Agent Tom Brandes taking a well-deserved vacation at the White Lotus after the events of tasks.

1:15:26He would not even know what to do with himself for the record. But did you have any crossovers you would love to see?

1:15:31Rob:Okay. If I'm sending any characters, character characters from one of the shows to the White Lotus, it's Maeve and the kids. Maeve, take the kids to White Lotus. Give them a break. You know? Maybe a non-murdery Lotus. I don't know if any of those are available to you, but Maeve and the kids should go to the White Lotus to enjoy themselves, not to solve a murder or potentially die. And then speaking of task, I want to send Nurse Dana from the pit to just clean house in the task universe. The no-nonsense Nurse Dana energy inside of the task universe. i think we deserve this so you know she might be running the dark hearts given a couple months you know just i i put nothing past her i think she would have like spotted grasso like immediately um so yeah that's that's that's sort of what i'm thinking what about you i have four options for you joe i would love i would love for you to pick of these four which one you like the best uh jackson lamb at the white lotus it could be sunning it could be snowing whatever whatever you prefer mention slow horses yeah jackson lamb with the white loaves he would hate it but there would be a lot of noodles so that would be nice it's very true number two jackson lamb as a cyborg in alien earth you may be sensing a theme number three jackson lamb just strolling around la and nobody wants this trying to put up with kristin bell and adam brody's whole deal that show needed a jackson lamb frankly jackson lamb like nobody's business desperately uh or four fuck it jackson lamb and heated rivalry i don't know who he plays or what he is maybe he's the coach of one of these teams you know or maybe he's just jackson lamb a hockey enthusiast um i really i think we need to send him to la to straighten out the nobody wants this crowd because i had some a terrible time with season two of nobody wants this so not a good season uh you know especially for like a group of actors i really like and a season i just did not like So let's put one more actor we love who can just cut up and undercut everything that's happening.

1:17:40Jackson Lamb and everything is my general contention. That's a great bit.

1:17:43Rob:Good job. Let's go to this email from Danny. Which show has your favorite intro sequence? And would you abolish the skip intro button to force everyone else to enjoy it? This is part of a larger riff from Danny about the power of being able to abolish the skip intro button, which I've got to say, I think there really is something to be said about getting in the mood for a show through its intro sequence. And if you are skipping every time, I think you are doing yourself a little bit of a disservice, particularly if you're parachuting in for one or two episodes at a time. If it's a full binge, maybe it's different, but you got to let yourself get in the headspace.

1:18:19Rob:Yeah, on a binge, I will skip intro for a Netflix show or something like that. But especially, I kind of miss, this is going to make me sound extremely old, Like, what about theme songs with words to them that you like that was just a theme song for a show that you knew? Like, I have a pal who we were both Lashkey kids in the 80s and 90s. And so, like, we know way too many TV theme songs. And so, we will just, like, sing the Growing Pains theme song or the Family Matters theme song or the Perfect Strangers theme song. I know all the words, all of those. Unfortunately, they're rattling around my brain.

1:18:52Rob:But, I mean, I would never skip the Buffy intro ever. Not even on a bench. Why would you? You know? Starts with a howl. If you're in the earlier seasons, you get the scream that happens. Yes. I mean, Nerf Herder, very important to the whole experience. Stuff like Mad Men or Friday Night Lights. That just puts you in the mood for what you're about to watch. It puts you in the mood so well that Landman is like, what if we also just tried to do that exact same thing? I know. Even though our show is a totally different mood. One of my biggest beasts with Landman season one was the Explosions in the Sky homage that was happening.

1:19:34Rob:Thrones, obviously, is a gimme. Westworld was extremely good. See, but I think Thrones is a good example. That's one that I will skip over time. It's like I enjoy it, but it is quite long. But it would tell you where it was going. But I don't want to know where it's going. That's what I'm saying. I don't want the tease. That was utilitarian. it would tell me oh my god we're going oh we're going back to bravos oh no all right um and then did you ever watch the tv show terriers once one and done on terriers that has an incredibly good theme song that i like like there's there are theme songs that like make you want to dance around the living room and that's one of them so yeah what do you that's the key is what what makes you want to dance as you get up to like go get another can of something or a snack and you're like dancing your way to the kitchen as the theme song plays i think is critical but terriers to me is locking in on i think what might just be like the high point like that era of tv to me has so many great opening themes who would we be if we did not mention justified joe gangsta grass for life it's still my alarm song on my phone i think that's a perfect one because you go through the whole arc of it of like at some point you're like oh this is terrible but then you come to love it It's like a post irony thing, but it's just so good.

1:20:51I also did unapologetically love the True Blood opening theme. I guess I love to watch a decaying animal, but it's just very hooky.

1:21:00Rob:Yeah, that's Chris Isaac, right? Yeah, that was a really good one. Great one. And to your point about, you know, now so many shows don't have, it's a lot of like wordless musical interludes, increasingly shorter and shorter, like Pluribus is, where it's just like a little sting almost at this point. I think the great wordless ones you can almost create your own words too you know I'm guilty of at various times in my life singing along to the Battlestar Galactica theme and it goes like what Rob? well that's a paid content we're gonna have to get the subscribers to really pony up for the Battlestar Galactica it's our last podcast of the year it's the holiday season and you're gonna tell me that you sing along to the Battlestar Galactica theme song and you're not gonna do it that's correct sounds like a great aspiration for 2026 next email joe that we got from what did jomi tell you about no budding bits yes anding is what we do on this podcast that's really disappointing rob really tough um that's called a tease joe we're trying to keep people coming back for new shows we can't give them everything have i shared with you the lyrics that i sing to the various lord of the rings themes no and don't you want to hear them right now?

1:22:13I do. Maybe we might have to arrange a trade at some point. I didn't realize you did all of, you know, the book and lyrics for the Lord of the Rings musical. You were locked in like that.

1:22:23Rob:Oh, yeah, yeah. No, they're really good lyrics, let me tell you. Me and my best. Well, while we're getting into your literary exploits, Joe, I want to go to this email from Matthew, who asked specifically, based on the strength of your Ringerverse Recommends picks, what TV shows you would, or what books you would love to see adapted into a TV show? As you know, this is squarely outside my depth. So I'm curious if you have any that you've just been waiting to see. Yeah, I've got some like definitely some old ones that like I'm still waiting for the Alana books by Tamara Pierce to be made into books.

1:22:57That's about a girl who pretends to be a boy

1:22:59Rob:so she can become a knight. Sounds great. You should read it. You should watch it. Terry Pratchett books. They have never been adapted correctly. I'm still waiting for that to happen. And that's kind of more high fantasy. Yeah. like dnd style storytelling yeah yeah i would say so dark elves and whatnot dark elves you have to shape up if you're gonna come over to house of r for buffy you can't say dark elves and whatnot buffy is a different thing you know i think i think i can get away with dark elves and whatnot um more recently the green bone saga by fonda lee is something that people are really really hoping gets turned to something that's jade city jade war jade legacy just like a really good Again, like this is all sort of in the fantasy space because when you say book series, like I'm not a CR where I read a bunch of like espionage series books or mystery series books.

1:23:47Rob:So when it comes to series, it's usually sci-fi fantasy is what I tend to get into. I will add Leigh Bordugo has a series of books. You know, they did Shadow and Bone for Netflix kind of poorly. but ninth house hell bent and then and the third and final one deadbeat is coming out next year and it's about uh i'm gonna pitch you on this premise uh a 20 year old high school dropout and trauma survivor who can see ghosts is surprisingly offered a full ride to yale uh recruited into the quote ninth house she must monitor the eight secret societies that practice dangerous occult magic so basically rob in buff you know the buffy episode the the the frat episode with the demon lizard patriarchy um it goes great this is all the frat episodes go but this basically the idea is that like all of the houses at yale are secretly like practicing occult magic and that's how they can like these people can graduate and run the stock market and stuff like that and just sort of like so they bring in this girl who is was not born a privilege and sort of the way in which she overturns this system while she's there.

1:25:02Rob:So that's a really good one. And then last time, at least. Yeah. Hold on, Joe. So she's brought in to basically be a cop? No, I mean, so she can see ghosts, which is not a normal thing. I think you're thinking of Ghost Whisperer, and I don't blame you for that. But she can see ghosts, so she's brought in as an asset inside of these ceremonies that they're like, Like you can study for free at Yale, but we're going to need you to show up at these ceremonies and sort of like, you know, handle the overspill, the magical overspill and stuff like that. So I like and then hell bent. The second one, we go to hell, which is great.

1:25:41Rob:Last but at least inside of this heated rivalry moment that we find ourselves inside of this like horny television moment. I will say that there's an author, Penny Reed. this is not on the caliber of any of my rigorous recommends things but penny reed has written a series i'm just going to hit you with the title of these books because i think you're going to hate them and it's going to make me laugh um so it's a series of books called the winston brothers and it's like like bridgerton where it's like all these members of the family are like various uh it sets takes place in a small tennessee town uh we're inside of a family of like a bunch of brothers but every single title has the word beard in it i'm already i'm already not loving where this is going so beard science is one of them and you're kind of like okay like you don't like a pun yeah weird science though beard sign it science grin and beard it okay grin and bear it like whatever truth or beard i feel like we just gave up at that point um dr strange beard okay maybe beard necessities kind of wait dr strange beard is one yeah because i think he's something in any word i think he's a vet uh and then beard in mind like it's just it's truth or beard is my favorite one because i'm just like we just did not even try on that one um anyway but i think the winston brothers books are really surprisingly funny and could make a really good uh show uh smutty or not but but why not smutty this is apparently some people want so that's my chaotic answer to that question a lot of people no i mean like yes me but like heated rivalry is crazy popular oh it's a phenomenon yeah so it's not just me no i i think we should have more smutty tv i i think look if we want to tip the scales a little bit i'm even willing to give up some of our like prestigier prestige like i'm willing to trade yeah two twisty murder mysteries a year for more smutty tv that's really generous of you rob thank you i'm just here to do it i'm here to broker trades we're just trying to make deals uh joe if you, we got an email from Alexis, if you could get one oral history on the making of a TV show or TV show episode, what show or episode would it be?

1:27:51I gotta say, I found this one difficult because a lot of these have been written.

1:27:54Rob:I know, exactly. I couldn't come up with a good one. Did you come up with anything, Rob? I think the ones that I would focus on are more recent. So like getting the real inside scoop on this most recent season of White Lotus and who actually hates each other and why. Severance. Beyond just the implied rumor. I mean, severance is kind of my next one up. I think this is what you want is either casts that don't seem to get along or famously flawed, broken productions and ideally both. So, you know, maybe Severance is the pick. My answer, the best answer I could come up with was because to your point, I'm like, I feel like I actually already know too much about so many of these things.

1:28:32Rob:But I was like, oh, Twin Peaks The Return, except David Lynch would not want that. So I was like, I'm like, Like, of two minds, because I'm just like, I want to know all the ins and outs of Twin Peaks The Return. But David Lynch is just sort of like, let the mystery be. Please don't do that. So, I think Severance is a great answer. Severance, what's going on there? Seriously, what is going on? We've heard so many whispers, rumors of who is the quote-unquote problem on the set of Severance. And I've heard... too many answers to ever be able to find figure out what the truth is so you know it's a whole circle of people all pointing at somebody else somehow it really is a remarkable bit of like blame like everyone is just trying to shift out from under it at every given point in time and I appreciate it honestly uh Joe did you hear or see that they're doing theatrical re-releases of Twin peaks episode by episode week by week in 2026 i saw the alamo draft house is doing this i saw some other theaters around the country are doing this seems like a pretty fucking sweet experience if you ask me should i move to la so that we can do this in la well you obviously should you you know my stance on this particular subject here's the thing if you if you move to la i will go watch twin peaks with you every week we'll we'll make it just like an annual ritual every tuesday or whatever we'll go that sounds so fun and then we can podcast about it we don't have to but we could make it content if we wanted to.

1:30:06Rob:Something to think about. You're all about the content, you know, just trying to churn things into work. I'm just trying to write off whatever we're going to pay to do this. That's very good. I want to end, Joe, with an email from Courtney, in part because I don't have very good answers to this question. And I think you are very well positioned to have them. Courtney also recently watched Lost for the first time and said that it changed the way that she watches TV now. Right. What do you think seems to be Lost's impact on TV in hindsight and what would you recommend to someone to watch post lost aside from just going on to the leftovers um so my answer to what you should watch act after was pretty easy um i would recommend either the show dark have we talked about dark have you watched dark i haven't seen it but we i think we've chatted about it briefly it's another one where i'm like trying to know as little as possible on the in the event i ever actually watch yeah yeah so it's a twisty sci-fi poignantly emotional right up our alley kind of show but it's German are you just doing like the Netflix word cloud descriptions under the title but make it German but it's German so um you know I I definitely recommend it I think the fact that it is German language and I always advocate sub not dub but like I think that has been a slight barrier for people but I think if it were not in a different language it would be one of the biggest shows that ever existed but I kind of like that it's not and I kind of like it's like one of those sort of like oh you like dark you're a person of taste um and then Twin Peaks I would say Twin Peaks which inspired Lost but if you've never seen it uh you know why not watch the show that sort of made Dame Lindelof into the tv creator that he is so that's Twin Peaks impact on Lost.

1:31:51Rob:Lost impact on tv in general that's really interesting and hard to answer because I think it's like kind of vaporized into so many different places. You just hear so many different people who make TV now talk about their obsession with Lost and Buffy as well. Because they're of the age that they were either watching Buffy or then eventually Lost. And so we talked about it in Severance. I would talk about it as it pertains to White Lotus. I would talk about it as a... It's just kind of atomized into all of television for better and for worse the for worse is the addiction to mystery box and you know the the carbon copies that came out uh which we talked about um you know all that sort of stuff like that but i think the better is um i mean i would say something like the cold open uh in this episode of pluribus felt very linda laffey definitely you know um i mean it wasn't like a woman in a cave but it kind of millions of years at the same time so um you know various like big swings i think is is something that lost really uh encouraged off the back of the big swing that was sure uh rob i know that part of courtney's question was also if you had to pick either a donut or a waterized flavor that would represent your personality or your year what would it be and why did you come up with anything for this rob you know what i'm not as well versed in the water ice flavors i have been to rita's before but i'm a pretty basic when it comes to like any kind of flavored ice situation so i feel like i'm a little i'm a little more schooled in the donut arts ultimately and we've talked about our very different oh feelings on donuts but for sure and leaning into that like i feel like i can't pick anything too bougie.

1:33:49It's got to be a pretty practical donut. And yet, a little flair, you know, a little dramatic. I think, honestly, my brain jumps to my actual favorite donut, which is the apple fritter.

1:34:00Rob:And is that like representing you, Rob, or is it representing your year? More representing me. Representing my year would be whichever donut gets inexplicably sick every couple weeks. That would be the donut that represents my year somehow. the most extremely late um in what way rob are you an apple turnover yeah apple fritter i'm sorry i want to make it very clear so sorry do not put me with them joe do not put me with the turnovers are you an apple fritter i think one look in the way that we are all works in progress joe the apple fritter you just kind of drizzle into the fryer and it coalesces into one solid thing somehow i don't know how it happens i can't explain it to you i don't know how i become me i just know that you know you drizzle me into the fryer a little bit all of a sudden become one solid piece of fried dough in a way that is craggly that contains multitudes that's impossible to pin down and yet i would hope you know accessible in a pinch off and enjoy kind of way i think i think we figured out why pressey tv episodes are usually about an hour because i think in hour 42 into this we get a little punchy um but that's one of my favorite things you've ever said um oh thank you and um but don't think you're getting off the hook on this are you going water ice or you go and donut donut obviously just don't tell me it has cereal on it don't don't tell me it's not like you know some fruity it belongs nowhere it does not belong in nowhere ice cream it doesn't belong anywhere i don't vibe with put some cereal on it put a bird on it put some cereal on it it's my number one it's a problem it's my number one like put a mustache on a cupcake like this is a hipster like move i don't like it okay um yeasted filled as i've talked about is uh is my this to represent my year yeasted filled deeply deeply bittersweet chocolate like really really really bitter and but i love bittersweet chocolate and i will just say that like that inside of it because it has to be really really dark and bitter because a donut it is so sweet.

1:36:06Rob:And so like, if you put like, milk chocolate inside, that's just like too much sugar. But like, if you put if you put just like something that is maybe on its own inedible, but you put it inside this and that's sort of been my year, there's just been like this, like, strain of like, I don't want that. But like, at the end of the day, it goes well with the whole year. And you come out at the end of the year with something like actually quite wonderful. even if there were parts of it where you're like, this is bad. This seems bad. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it's good. So, yeah. I mean, it's got a clean finish.

1:36:45That really is the important part. You know, there is a balance in a way. I hope for a slightly less bitter in the bittersweet spectrum 2026 for you, Joe. You know, like maybe following a year like this, we could do with a little cloy. We could do with some of that milk chocolate right about now. Let's just make it as easy as possible and all involved. Let's go super sweet in 2026.

1:37:04Rob:Super sweet 2026. in which you and I go to watch Twin Peaks Return, a very easy peasy, easily digestible, sweet show in the theater in LA, our shared home. Theoretically. Theoretically. Allegedly. Hypothetically. The rumor has it. All right. Did we do it? I think we did it, Joe. Rob, thanks so much for going through the emails and pulling out these questions. You did a great job with that. uh thanks everyone who wrote in all year long to licking the donut gmail.com what other emails did we use this year rob arstime the pope at gmail.com pineapple bombing at gmail.com uh djgrasanova gmail.com it's really been a banner year for the emails and really for the emailers this has been joe it has to be by far our best email year the inbox has been popping off show Lauren's pluribus bookends to the year were just some of your finest email works, folks.

1:38:01Rob:But White Lotus was really, really good, too. Task, you guys did an extraordinary job. And I just, like, I feel really lucky with our listenership. You guys are, like, so smart, so dialed in. Genuinely pretty kind, which is nice. And, yeah. And thank you, like, in terms of end of year, thank you so much to Justin Sales for his incredible work on this feed all year. Just, like, holding it down. Thanks to Donnie Beecham, who's on this episode and has been riding with us through Pluribus and a number of other things. Donnie. Absolutely. Getting to know Donnie better this year has been, like, a real highlight for me.

1:38:42Rob:So thank you so much to Donnie. Thanks also to Kai Grady for his work on the feed this year. And thank you to you, Rob Mahoney. Just the best. Joe thank you come on yeah I'll see you next year see you at Twin Peaks Joe bye