Slow Horses,' Season 5 Episode 1: New Season, New Track Suit

0:13Joanna Robinson:Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. And we're here to cover Slow Horses Season 5. Rob, TV, it's here. It is truly here. I'm thrilled to be back. And I will say, I think Slow Horses is thrilled to be back too. It's a real like, let's get back to basics kind of set up for the season that I am incredibly excited about. So we're going to talk about the season five premiere. So you haven't watched that yet. Please go watch it and come back. Season five, episode one, Bad Dates, which made me think of Indiana Jones. I don't know how you feel about that phrase.

0:49Joanna Robinson:But so we will be talking about that. We also have some slightly broader context about this season, about the book it's based on. No spoilers, though. Neither of us have read the book that it's based on. Neither of us have watched ahead. Of course, we're watching week to week. But I did sort of ferret out some context that might be helpful in helping us process what is going on with Slough House this season. We're going to be covering Slow Horses week to week. It's only a six-episode season, so we'll be doing that week to week. We are, of course, have our ongoing task coverage, usually with one William Simmons.

1:24Joanna Robinson:But who's to say what the rest of the season will look like? And then we will have a finale for our Hooked miniseries. We're doing The Sopranos at long last. So that is what is happening on this week. It's a lot. How do you feel about that, Joe? You're finally, you know, like we are both new to The Sopranos. But how do you feel about finally dipping into that world? I'm really excited actually I don't know we will be I'll be watching the pilot obviously and then whatever episode we've asked our listeners to sort of give us some ideas of what a good Hooked episode would be we're going to have a guest who's going to have an opinion about what a good episode might be this will just be like a toe dip into the world of The Sopranos but as you've discovered with the Hooked miniseries that we did, it's hard not to just keep going once you start with some of these incredibly classic shows.

2:19Joanna Robinson:So I don't know. What will my identity be, Rob, when I'm no longer the person who talks about television but hasn't seen The Sopranos? Who am I anymore after that? I don't know. It's going to be a hard look in the mirror for both of us. You know, really facing down our flaws as TV commentators, if not critics. Like, again, what are we supposed to do once we knock this one final thing off the list? Well, I mean, come on. um usually we ask our listeners to email us pressy chivy at spotify.com and you can always do that but rob mahoney this is the first time i believe one of our bespoke emails has come back around for a second dip into a season of television so what was the special slow horses email that we came up with for season four.

3:08Some of our best work of all time, Joe. That email is arstimethepope at gmail.com. That is A-R-S-E-T-I-M-E, the pope at gmail.com. And I would encourage people to use it. You know, not that it really matters. We're going to read your emails anyway, but it brings me great satisfaction when people use it.

3:26Joanna Robinson:Something I've noticed is I think people get more excited to email us when there's a sort of special email involved. Like we had the basic email for the first week of task, but the second week of task, once you hit DJ Grasanova, the email is just severely picked up. People just get excited about typing out Arstime the Pope or whatever the case may be. So this is season five. This is creator Will Smith's last season. How do you feel about that, Rob? That Will, who we've talked to before, who is departing the series, how does that make you feel about relishing these six episodes? I mean, I'm certainly going to be relishing.

4:03It makes me a little bit nervous just because this show is such a machine, right? Like they know how to make it. They know how to churn out these seasons. They know how to keep it on time. They know how to get the actors in and out. They know how to get the edit done. Will Smith has done such a great job in this era of waiting roughly a lifetime in between seasons of, I don't know, Stranger Things, just keeping us with a steady supply of actually good TV. And I hope that continues. I'm sure it's still the cadence of the show is expected to continue apace. But I'll believe it when I see it when someone else is at the reins.

4:35Joanna Robinson:We also want to mention, we're recording this a couple days after the Emmys happened, though it will be even longer once this actually airs for you to listen to. Slow Horses won Outstanding Directing in a Drama Series. Adam Randall won that for the season four finale, Hello Goodbye. This was a win that we were a little... we love slow horses. Oh yeah. I would say we both agree that season four was maybe not our favorite season, not all the way through, but sort of by the end, we were a little like, is this what we want? I think you and I, and, and, and Chris Ryan texted us about this sort of before we had a chance to watch the episode that this felt like a bit like a return to form in this episode.

5:18Joanna Robinson:So I'm really excited for season five. However, I felt about season four. Is there anything you want to say about the Emmy win in your larger, prestige TV thoughts and feelings. It's complicated because I never want to begrudge a Slow Horses win of any kind because we love this show. But rewarding the finale of the least Slow Horses season of Slow Horses, I do feel mixed about and I especially feel mixed about it up against some of the amazing direction that was being done, for example, on Severance, like our favorite episodes of Severance by Jessica Lee Gagné in particular. It's like, I think that's an all-time directorial performance.

5:58And the fact that it can't even pull the Emmy in its own year is kind of crazy.

6:02Joanna Robinson:It's tough. It was really tough. Yeah. But as you say, we love to see Slow Horses awarded. I will say like when Will Smith won the writing Emmy, you know, the previous year, like I, you know, shouted from the rooftops, I was so excited. This was like, it feels like more of a, we want Slow Horses represented in this Emmy year more than like this specific or this stands in for the whole season. Because as we've mentioned before in Slow Horses coverage, they are sort of single director seasons of television. So Adam winning for the finale is sort of Adam winning for the whole season. And the director of season five is Saul Metstein, who directed season three as well, a great season of So Horses.

6:47Joanna Robinson:Also, Rob, the phenomenal Doctor Who episode, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. So just something to think about. So anything you want to say, you know, before we get into some book context, and then we'll sort of break down some character moments inside of this episode about where we left off in that Hello Goodbye finale. Anything like contextually that you were that was on your mind as we went into this episode about where our favorite characters were at the end of last season? I mean my chief concern was how are these characters going to be looped in together again they were strewn apart they were pulled in different kind of interpersonal directions and you know it was like every character had their respective traumas over the first you know three seasons and then they got channeled into their own little into their little silos I think especially in River's case my big question for the season was is River going to be back at Slough House or is he still going to be palling around in some foreign country and I'm delighted that the answer so far is that he's back.

7:52And he's back in the mix with the other characters that we care about and that we know and love. And seeing their dynamic again, that's what I wasn't positive we were going to get in the regular intervals that we did in the first three seasons. But it's what makes slow horses feel like slow horses to me. Right now, get up to 15 % off Select Storage Solutions. Put heavy-duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you. The solid, impact-resistant design prevents cracking, and the clear base and sides make items easy to find even when the totes are stacked. Find select shelving and tote storage up to 15 % off at the Home Depot to organize every room in your home, from your garage to your attic.

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8:37Joanna Robinson:When Chris Ryan texted us and was like, hey, have you guys watched the first episode? Neither of us had, and then I just immediately did. And then I came back to the group text. You hadn't watched it yet, though. So I didn't want to say this in the group text. But I was thinking about you a lot because I was like, this episode has to both really excite Rob and then really depress Rob because your two people are, I would say, Shirley and Louisa, right? Like you're a Shirley head and a Louisa head. This is setting up a great Shirley season. And we needed one, honestly. like she's been given some scant material i would say at times the last couple years but you're your girl louisa i don't know because i i once again i have no book spoilers i don't know but like is this it for louisa do you feel like this is a genuine exit from the show and from the plot or is it going to be just when she thought you know we got a real don't call me i'll call you moment from louisa at the end of the episode heartbreaking yeah but is it just going to be like she's immediately pulled back in is it a mid-season pull back in which is only like two episodes from now like what do you think is going on with your girl i am willing to accept this could be her final season i am not willing to accept that this is her last appearance of this season and in fact if she is not backed by episode three at minimum i'm gonna be furious about it so you know whatever person i need to write an angry sternly worded letter to whether that's Will Smith or otherwise about a work of art that's already been completed and shot and edited and sent out for you know sent out for a distribution I'm willing to do it um I think there's enough reason to believe that she's gonna hang around like the stuff in this first episode with her and River is so great and is so heartbreaking that if that's the last of that relationship we see I just think that would be that would be gutting even by slow horses standards and so i i just i i am choosing to believe that she is still in the air somewhere going out on an unwanted kiss is not the way you want uh this all to wrap up here but i'm very wanted i would say the moment of the episode for me is in response to the unwanted kiss the look that she gives gives river followed by the raspberry dismissal uh is just perfect perfect television it's it's it's pretty tremendous uh stuff from both of them honestly um okay i want to give uh if you'll indulge me some book context uh for this season of television as is my want so this is you know we've already talked about the slow horses uh book series we got a lot of listeners in our season four coverage who had read the books sort of wrote in with some thoughts no spoilers but just sort of like adaptive thoughts and stuff like that this show is an unusually faithful adaptation kind of show unusually like faithful and loyal to the books this is based on uh the fifth book in the series london rules and just some context on that published in 2018 and it's not like london rules it's like the idea of london rules which i was waiting for it which which gets brought up in this episode we'll talk about that in a second Well, look, I will say it depends on who you ask.

11:50I think there are political factions within this first episode who their stance would just be London rules.

11:55Joanna Robinson:Yeah, maybe that should be the campaign slogan for the Gimbal Party, perhaps. At least it could rule. If it were tougher on crime, it could, in fact, rule. That's a real like Hail Britannia sort of idea of London ruling. Okay, so this book was published in 2018, and it is definitely McCarran dealing with the 2016 Brexit referendum vote. That is definitely like the background of his focus for this book. From what I've seen, again, no spoilers. I was just sort of trying to see like, do people like this book? Is this a well-liked book in the series? It's a lot of people's favorite book in the series, it seems like.

12:33Joanna Robinson:And the general consensus is that it's darker, more viciously pointed politically, but funnier. So darker yet funnier, which, sign me up, sounds great. Yeah. As you might expect having already watched this episode, it's a Roddy season and it's a Shirley season is sort of what is promised. and can I share since we don't have the benefit of like voiceovers or you know your mileage may vary on voiceovers but since we don't have voices from slow horses can I share some dueling passages that I saw somewhere because we're inside different characters heads inside of these books right so I'm going to give you a Roddy POV and then I'm going to give you the immediate Shirley POV that follows it okay so this is Roddy neat little goatee in a baseball cap originality plus style roderick ho was the complete package the way brad pitt used to be before the unpleasantness okay so that's and then immediately after you get shirley ho looked basically like a dumb tourist who'd been ripped off twice already once by someone selling hats and a second time by someone giving away beards So that's just like the push and pull, I guess, of London rules that we've already seen a taste of in episode one.

13:54Joanna Robinson:How excited does that make you to have this idea of like a Roddy Shirley? This is very much an ensemble. River is back in the mix. We're all sort of together season. But if we had to sort of like isolate it, it's kind of a Roddy Shirley season. How do you feel about that? I'm thrilled about it. I mean, especially the way that their two plot lines are kind of intersecting at this point, which is Shirley is hyper vigilant and her PTSD and seeing threats everywhere, including what doesn't seem to be a credible threat to Roddy specifically, even though he almost got hit by a moving van. It was more just kind of like she was right about him almost getting hit by a van.

14:32She was right about some circumstantial things, but wrong about the way all the pieces are fitting together. and so the fact that she is trying to help someone who doesn't believe he needs to be helped who doesn't see himself as being in trouble but is seems to be being targeted for wholly irrelevant or wholly side reasons that's kind of a thrilling conceit for me what do you think exactly she's wrong about i think look the van let's take it like from the origin moment where she pushes roddy out of the way of a moving van this is the van we see the assassin of the assassin get back into flee the scene of the original crime like i don't believe that the driver of that van which presumably is the sniper is trying to hit roddy specifically i think he is trying to get away from the scene and so she is taking it as a as a threat in the same way that slough house was just targeted at the end of last season when there was a full-on assault that they had to fend their way out of with a kettle and is choosing to see that as like a targeted thing versus a circumstantial thing okay

15:29Joanna Robinson:I think they are connected I don't have any like absolute concrete evidence about that but I just think the way that these things happen in slow horses they usually do wind up being connected so I wouldn't be surprised if it's not just a coincidental that van was leaving the scene of a mass murder and just happened to sort of like nearly buzz one of our main characters you know what I mean like I feel like yeah it's it's all connected but again I don't know in terms of the If your argument, Joe, is surely right, I'm willing to go along with whatever train you want to take that down. Surely reading River to filth in this episode.

16:09Joanna Robinson:Pretty phenomenal stuff. Okay. Really great. London Rules is a title. The show version, which we hear part of in this episode that we've heard a couple times from River's grandfather, etc., is Moscow Rules, Watch Your Back, London Rules, Cover Your Arse. Right? Like that's the idea. Can I read you quickly the book version of this? Yes. Which is, if Moscow rules meant watch your back, London rules meant cover your arse. Moscow rules had been written on the streets, but London rules were devised in the corridors of Westminster. And the short version read, someone always pays. Make sure it isn't you.

16:50Joanna Robinson:Nobody knew that better than Jackson Lamb and nobody played it better than Diana Tavener. so I was thinking about that passage specifically and uh you know we will this is not the focus of this episode by any stretch of the imagination but the thing that it immediately pinged for me is that our guy James Callis who we were just talking about in Battlestar Galactica plays Claude Whelan who is bumbling his way already through this episode in in the previous season there are things that were set up in season four that are paying off here roddy's catfish experience continues at pace this time in in in in the uh in the real world but but whelan's eminently vulnerable to blackmail because there is just dirt out there and so if this idea is like cover your arse like what what kind of pawn is he going to become to people who want to leverage him.

17:49Joanna Robinson:Again, this is not anything I know about, but I'm like, of all the people who are most invested in covering their arse and are most in danger of being exposed, he seems like a prime suspect to me inside of the characters we know already. You know what I mean? Especially within the mechanism of, you know, we have this inciting incident with this mass shooting in a shopping center. We also have the kind of background of the mayoral race in London that's happening in real time. And, you know, Claude's chilly dismissal of Gimbel's wife, Dodie, in particular, who is his wife and campaign manager and a tabloid journalist who already has an adversarial relationship with him.

18:32She feels like she could be an easy mechanism to pull up Sector. Like, you know, again, just someone who, like, the politics of London at this time are factoring into not just the shooting, in which the shooter already owns some of Gimbel's books in particular, which he refuses to accept. But the fact that all this stuff is going to get tangled up in the way that the crime is painted in the press, in the way that's understood by people, and as you're alluding to with the London rules, who is taking the blame for this stuff ultimately? Claude has a lot to say about who is going to take the blame, and it's sure as hell not going to be him.

19:04Joanna Robinson:We'll see. We'll see, man. Let's talk. So we open with this attack in Abbotsfield, and that is often the case with slow horses season that there's like sort of a big inciting incident right and this is as you alluded to slow horses seasons are done a long time ago this was shot a long time ago it happens to be coming out right when we here in america and you know ramifications globally are in the thick of our own uh conversations about uh political violence um lonely white men uh who are susceptible to influence on message boards uh you know we're always having that conversation but we are very much having that conversation right now um so how do you feel rob about um you know this in this in larger environment you know we don't obviously the book is not making a comment on this particular moment in our history no the show is not making a comment on this particular moment in our american history necessarily but it's you know we are recording this the day after Jimmy Kimmel's show, you know, got pulled by ABC.

20:13Joanna Robinson:Like there is a lot of heated feelings about this. How does it make you feel watching this episode and thinking about, you know, we don't have to go too deeply into it, but it's just sort of like, I don't know, this is the context we're absorbing this particular story in. Yes, I would say it's kind of twofold. One, there is just something that is always chilling, especially in these particular times about watching a young guy silently pull an assault rifle out of a bag and just gun down people in a public square in like such an indiscriminate and dispassionate way it's like it's very chilling to watch and i think slow horse is at its best even though it's taken the piss out of so many things usually the violent acts at the center of these seasons or the plots at the center of these seasons are dastardly evil distressing stuff and the the miracle of the show is that they can make you forget that with fart jokes and the balance of that is is the alchemy that makes the horses so successful uh but this was one of those moments where i i could not help but think of the baggage and the way that an american audience receives an episode like this versus a british audience in particular like this idea of a mass shooting like 11 people are killed in the shooting there has not been a shooting of that scale in the United Kingdom in like 15 years.

21:26Here in America, a mass shooting is like, it's Thursday. You know, like this is just kind of what happens around here. We literally did just have one.

21:34Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Completely. And so the idea of what we watch and how we're watching it for those two audiences in particular, it's like, I would love to hear from, you know, anyone who is watching the show in the UK, anyone who's watching the show from a country that is not America, and how something like this lands with you. If this hits in the same chilling way, or if it feels sort of abstracted in to novelize spy violence in the way that it kind of is. Yeah, it's interesting. It reminded me of the conversations we had around the guns, you know, last, you know, because the conversation about like arming the people in Slough House inside of this episode comes up.

22:09Joanna Robinson:And it reminded me that when we talked about this last season, we were got, I think, a bit of an extra education from our listeners about the idea of, you know, people in law enforcement in the UK and how rare it is to have a gun inside of that space. And so, yeah, the different are really depressingly different approaches towards violence and gun violence, you know, across the pond. But I think what we are trying to do here with this mayoral race, we've got Nick Muhammad, who, you know, most American audiences know from Ted Lasso. If you are a UK fan, you might know him from his incredible turn on Taskmaster.

22:50Joanna Robinson:He's very good. his persona Mr. Swallow or whatever I'm a huge Nick Muhammad fan I'm really glad that he's here um you know playing this you know they've changed it from the book that it was like sort of a slightly more obscure like West Midlands mayoral race this is the London mayoral race right so the stakes are like a little bit higher obviously on that so Jaffrey as this incumbent mayor this um hope v hate dynamic that is set up by his by his followers uh in the opening scene before the massacre um this idea that in 2016 as london uh votes for brexit they also elect sadi khan who is london's first muslim and ethnic minority mayor who uh is still mayor of london but like that that is definitely like a real world comp that's in the mix here uh for mccarran as he puts this together um what do you think about how you know we see the two mayoral candidates talking as talking heads on the news sort of in the background after the massacre and then we go into i'm just gonna like take us directly over into the mayoral debate scene which you've already uh talked about a little bit like how is this all piecing together for you in a sort of political arena i mean so far it's all very recognizable left and right stuff right it's like i'm gonna go out on a limb and say, as is basically always the case with slow horses, it's never going to be that simple.

24:20It's always going to be a fair bit more complicated than that in the end. And in fact, like of all the players who could be kind of gnarled up and twisted and leveraged, I mean, Jaffrey seems like he could be the kind of guy who gets caught in something and forced to compromise in ways that are against his messaging or his values for sure.

24:36Joanna Robinson:Right. It's interesting. Nick Muhammad did this really interesting small smile moment when claude reveals to them that uh the shooter was a gimbal supporter there's this like tiny little smile in his face that he quickly smothers in the sort of you know think of the human cost uh sort of demeanor that he's putting on this thing that gimbal calls him out for why are you talking like this there's no one here you know what i mean like Like, why are you performing in a way? Totally. And it is because he is kind of talking in platitudes. You know, I'm inclined, perhaps because I like Nick Muhammad so much or whatever, but I'm like inclined to think nice things about this character.

25:23But they also want that.

25:26Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Is there a way in which, you know, they've already mentioned twice this idea of like a false flag or a stitch up, you know. Is there a version of this story where Jeffrey, either with the help of his chief of staff or not, has – I mean, that's deeply dark. He's the favorite to win, but has orchestrated something like this or is at least slightly involved? Or is it just, I'm going to benefit from this, and so I'm going to take a small amount of personal satisfaction from that? What do you think? I mean, at minimum, he is a political operator, right? I think that's what we see in that moment where he cannot separate himself from like the stump talking points or kind of like the very politically rote thing to respond to in a moment.

26:07Like there's no for all the warmth like that he brings as a performer. It's all kind of like washed away in political blandness in that moment. And I think like that's a great way to kind of stage this character. And also the juxtaposition, as you said, with an actor in Nick Muhammad who we are inclined to like and who audiences, especially in like a post Ted Lasso world, having seen both sides of it, I think are still inclined to like. But having that as a baseline allows him to play against type. It allows him to kind of skirt the line and for us to kind of figure out where he actually stands with this stuff.

26:42Joanna Robinson:It's interesting. I was fascinated. So, um, Christian Gurumurthy, who is like a real, uh, UK journalist is playing the debate moderator here. And that's, uh, an unusual thing for slow horses to do, I think. Um, so again, like they're not really shying away from how, how much they're playing in the real world politics of, of London, of the UK. But I think what's interesting about this season, I'll be curious to see how local we keep all of this because you know as we ask questions about roddy's girlfriend as we ask questions about the shooter of the shooter and and all of the sort of factions involved there what is present so far is less like there's a big giant russian conspiracy or um you know rivers dad is you know farming super soldiers in france or whatever and this is just sort of like and let's look within what is the rot inside of our own system uh our own society our own culture um that that we can examine which i think is an interesting flip on some of this sort of more global someone's gonna fly a plane into a building uh stakes that we've seen in other seasons i think that's why it's like it feels like season five and season one in particular are kind of in conversation with one another in terms of that so like that that particular kind of socio-political intrigue and who is doing it for what reasons and kind of the theater that is laid over it that's like already where we're starting with this season and like i i really like the creation of these two characters and kind of their respective you know aides in terms of the campaign manager in terms of tyson bowman you know the six six chief of staff who's going to like leg press a school bus at any moment.

28:34Gimbal too, for a character who you're clearly set up to think of a certain way, I love the way that character is being pitched and played so far. I love the potential for what it can do to the plot and how it's going to drive and push some of these other characters in the frame. And Joe, from one bestseller to another, I'm curious if you have a favorite of the great Gimbal works. We've got The Bulldog Spirit, The Englishman's Burden, and Pride and Empire. which which would you say was your favorite i think the englishman's burden as a sort of

29:05Joanna Robinson:on the white man's burden is uh is gonna be my pick um can't wait to read all of them they all sound like they're full of great ideas uh ideas that really resonate with me so um thanks so much for doing your freeze frame uh best here rob well along those lines i did notice all from the same publisher so you know those are fucking hits that's like okay the first one really landed and we got to lock this guy into a three book deal after that. I will say, I honestly think the character that I'm most excited about is Dodie. Victoria Hamilton is an actress who's, you know, tabloid journalist who just like swans in talking about octaroons and calls Claude Dame Whelan and all this just like deeply nasty shit, right?

29:48Joanna Robinson:Victoria Hamilton is an actress who I know best from like early aughts period pieces and she was always really good at like being catty in a in a very british kind of way and so i'm really excited to see her here and i'm really excited like what a repugnant person um and but what an entertainingly repugnant person uh you know potentially to watch this season so she seems like an incredibly tough hang and yet we all have to just sit back and acknowledge that her saying that claude was looking for james bondage is just a great line like look i don't care what anybody says like you just got to salute it she knows a head she knows a deck she knows she knows how to readers um she gets just like a sort of great villain walk to camera moment while her husband's like shouldn't have done that like that's that's just exciting um i think um all right let's well let's let's go back to slough house uh and let's let's go to our guy roddy chris chung who was doing a bunch of press when he was in town for the emmys is a really aware that this is like his season his time to shine um and gets an iconic entrance to simply irresistible um dancing through the street running into women and as they like protest that he has jostled them he's like blowing them kisses like hey babe um how's your time with roddy been so far this season rob a goddamn delight come on like i think you know it's not just the new track suit and the pink highlights the hair it is the flexing of like a very specific kind of confidence that can only come from like an improbable and inexplicable new relationship right like he is feeling himself in a way that a character who already was as brash and overconfident as anybody at slough house and that is saying something but he is hitting a totally different level that i'm having a great time with i love the way that like shirley who absolutely despises him but like shirley in the club had to be like i kind of get it actually he's a he's a good piece of meat i don't know what to tell you i can see it you know i see the vision um in shirley's tracking of roddy to the club and all that sort of stuff and all the first night commentary about his girlfriend uh her like sort of delightful scene partner and a lot of that is katherine and katherine is just seems seems like katherine sandish seems like she's just right folded back into the office this is a big plot of the previous season is sort of like Catherine's out of the office.