‘Slow Horses’ Season 6 Premiere: The Saddest Horse

19:08Everyone's great in The Descent.

19:09Joanna Robinson:Shout out Bat Guy in The Descent. Bat Guy's good. Honestly, The Cave is very good. Very scary. Pile of Skulls, also fantastic. Undoubtedly effective. Why would I, yes or no, want to see Kill List? Oh, it's a phenomenal movie, but definitely one that afterwards will make you hate the very fact of being alive. Oh, okay. So if that's your can of worms. We're recording this before Labor Day weekend, so maybe this is a holiday watch for me? What do you think? I think so. Nice day in the sun, nice night with Kill List. Okay, great. Jim and Jane are the name of these assassins. I was kind of bummed about that.

19:41Really? Well, mostly because I was hoping for the possibility of us coming on this pod and trying to come up with a cutesy name for them.

19:46Joanna Robinson:Okay, did you have any candidates? I didn't get that far before I saw Jim and Jane. I was like, is this thing one thing too? Is this Laurel and Hardy? Like, what is their vibe? We barely know them, but they're Jim and Jane already. I did want to do a brief celebration of duo assassins from film and television. Let's hear it. Okay. In Bruges. Of course. Pulp Fiction. Yeah. Bullet Train. Lemon and Tangerine. Speaking of fun names, Lemon and Tangerine. How dare you sneak Bullet Train into this list? That is the best part of the movie. Lemon and Tangerine from Bullet Train. You're comparing it to two other assassin duos that are like linchpins of their respective movies.

20:24Sure. I didn't say they were centered. Those are two admittedly scene-stealing characters. in a movie that was begging for scenes to be stolen.

20:32Joanna Robinson:That movie should have just been about Lemon and Tangerine to the point where like when they, spoilers for Bullet Train, die in the movie, I was like, oh no, now we can't get a Lemon and Tangerine spinoff, which we definitely deserved one. And I just want to say, on the In Bruges front, an incredible, perfect film, where's your excitement for Wild Horse 9, the Martin McDonough movie that's coming out this year? Over the moon. Yeah, I've heard incredible things about it. I'm really excited. I would say shares a lot in apparent DNA with slow horses. And in Bruges. Well, certainly. Yeah. But as far as these, like, spies who are kind of bumbling about, kind of off their rocker, like, that speaks to us as people who watch this show.

21:09Joanna Robinson:Bumbling spies. They're not assassins in that movie, but, like, kind of. I actually don't fully know the premise of that movie. Aren't all spies kind of assassins? Yeah, there you go. Fargo, the television series. Mr. Wrench, Mr. Numbers. Sure. Great duo. And then Justified, our favorite. Yeah. Jay and Roscoe, the brothers. I just love assassin duos. Like, why ever have one assassin when you can have two? And for them to have a fun dynamic. Well, I think the argument for that is like the John Cusack and Gross Point Blank argument, which is like, I didn't get in this to be part of a team, you know?

21:46Sure. I don't want to be part of your union.

21:48Joanna Robinson:But like, wouldn't you want a little friend? Like, don't you want a friend? I mean, I'm - If you were an assassin. I'm pro-friendship, bro. I'm just saying it seems like solitary work for a reason. Privacy is of the essence. In a storytelling sense, wouldn't you always opt for duo assassins when you can? Of course. Yeah. This was really fun. Watching them kill poor Strunloi. Watching Jane get a splinter from the board that they put in front and her just like them completely disaffected as Strun is begging for his life and screaming and her just being looking at the little splinter in her hand.

22:21Joanna Robinson:Not to mention the woman they kill on the narrow boat. I know. You can't even do some gardening anymore? But there's just like a fun, like, it's almost like a dance. There's just like a fun choreography to it. And their attitude is really fun. And the way they sort of like pretended to be a couple as they walked away. I just, I am a huge fan of them. I love Kyle Seller. I'm really excited he's here. Thrilled. I have some accent questions. And we'll see how it goes going forward. They're spies. I mean, assassins. Who's to say where they're from? Yeah. That's what I need. I need them to not be from here.

22:57Ambiguous origins.

22:59Joanna Robinson:Because Kyle Soller's British accent is very daunting. So I wouldn't mind if he's like from somewhere else pretending to be British. Let me say this. I too love an assassin duo. I do think for all the reasons you described, it lends itself to this kind of like zany, like almost comedy beat. Yeah. Versus if you have a more serious story, maybe you do want kind of your lone gunman type. Because when you put two in a room, they start riffing. They start asking questions. Like even just the teamwork you described ends up being kind of funny in its own way. So perfect for slow horses. Maybe not perfect for everything, though.

23:30Joanna Robinson:I do want to shout out Stur and Loy, though, in his final moments. I did enjoy the line. Sorry, I do want you to go now. That might have been the most one of the most British things this episode. I think it's important to ask for what you want. Yeah. You know, sorry, I do want you to go now. I don't think I've ever been able to muster that in my life, even though there have been many times when I wanted people to leave. Oh, no. Joe, that's how you get funny games. You do not want to get funny games. I did have funny games on the long list, but I just didn't want to kill the vibe by bringing up funny games.

23:57Joanna Robinson:It's all right. I already introduced kill lists. Like the vibes are horrendous. The vibes are awful. Okay. Speaking of, our guy Ko arrives at Slough House. The estate agent there does not know he's an estate agent. Beats the shit out of him with Roddy's colorful keyboard. How'd you feel about this? You know, I'm going to nominate this for best Spycraft of the week. Really? Yeah. I actually kind of had it as worst. See, look, we just watched another former Slough House agent get murdered in a shipping container because he was naive enough to think that these people actually wanted to buy a shipping container from his weird little entrepreneurial business.

24:33Joanna Robinson:Call it by his name, Studios in the Sky. Sorry, Studios in the Sky. Coe's not messing around. Like, you see a stray laser pointer from an unannounced presence in your government building? I think it's hit with a keyboard for his ask questions later. Yeah, but hit maybe once. Maybe once. not brutally just savage someone. And then, but then he didn't ask questions later. When they're like, who's this guy? He's like, I don't know. They got to the bottom of it eventually. It's not his job. His job is to incapacitate. I think as a spy, when you're a spy. Okay, Michael Weston. That's exactly what I was going for.

25:06Joanna Robinson:When you're a spy, you should ask questions. I think, again, I think you secure the perimeter first. You should eat yogurt and ask questions. I'm just saying, every time someone has shown up unannounced in Slough House, they mean to do these people harm. Okay. So I think this is good spycraft. This is my worst. My worst piece of spycraft. Every other Slough House person who gets a visit from these two unannounced dies. So good job on Coe saving everybody's life. And if you're keeping track at home, we have referenced both Bullet Train and Burn Notice on this podcast. I think we're doing really well.

25:38Joanna Robinson:Diana Taverner and River talk about funeral arrangements. How did you feel about this is how we find out, you know, about his grandfather. How did you feel about that? I was finding out this way. Yeah. And I mean, we can loop maybe some of the broader David Cartwright stuff in with this just because like from this moment on, I found this whole thread to be just pretty devastating. Yeah. And some of that is like, Jonathan Pryce is awesome on this show. I mean, the death scene is... That one... He's crying. Gutted me. Yeah. Just gutted me. And some, like, there are things about this grandfather-grandson dynamic that have always like hit me particularly hard.

26:13I think it's so well acted, so well actualized.

26:17Joanna Robinson:And even when we know what we know about what David Cartwright has done in his career. In fact, that makes it even better. And I'll say this, like, I think narratively, a lot of the River David story had kind of been told. And you could feel as far as like writing the show. Yeah. It was only going to get more and more challenging. And it was already very challenging. The fact that David is such an important part of River's life, understandably, makes it harder to like pull him into different settings and different stories. he has this really strong tether coming back to David at every turn. And so when the story's not about David, he's almost too impactful and too charismatic a loose end to just have there.

26:53Joanna Robinson:To just be roasting chickens or whatever. So I get why this happened and it's very sad. And also I think to that point, River Cartwright as Sad Boy is just like a button the show can push whenever it wants and it's quite effective. It's all we've ever wanted from him. He's not the slowest horse, but he is the saddest horse. A sad horse who can't even get his mom on the phone when his grandpa dies and whose dad shows up and is like, oh, mom didn't come, huh? So grandpa died. Yeah. Mom won't answer your calls. Yeah. Dad shows up and not only shows up, but like throat chops you. Yeah. It's just a tough day.

27:28Joanna Robinson:Yeah. And then moxie for your mom's not showing up. Brutal. Really tough. Okay. I did like his sass to Diana. Oh, your first desk, I never would have known. And her sass back, of course. Grief, exhaustion, and immaturity. my trio my watch words grief, exhaustion, and immaturity is how I get through the day you know I mean we should say I mean Taverner being first desk this was like laid out at the end of last season good for her long time coming she has slithered her way all the way to the top we love it love the position that puts her in Lamb as far as being a cross-purposes as always I am gonna miss Claude Whelan a little bit like James Callis was so fun on this show but this is where I was always going to go one way or another Taverner had to be in that seat at some point in the show.

28:11Joanna Robinson:Well, yes, I agree. But also like by the rules that McCarran like lays out, which is like my characters never learn their lessons. Oh, no. You know, and so River saying, hey, you're going to send me back to the park and I'm still here. Like in terms of slow horses never leaving Slough House, there could be a version of that where Diana Taverner never leaves second desk. Yes. You know, but I'm happy for her. She's also a monster. She hears about Stru and Loy from Emma Flight, and she's just like, eh. Unbothered. Yeah, who cares? But the horses have been wiped from the system, and no one has been paid.

28:48I'm sure it's not a big deal.

28:50Joanna Robinson:Okay, don't worry about it. It's fine. This episode is brought to you by Paramount Plus. On September 18th, prepare for Uncivil War. Mobland, the hit crime series from the underworld of Guy Ritchie, returns to Paramount Plus. The Harrigans are back, and their empire is spiraling into chaos from the inside out. As power plays, fractured loyalties, and reckless decisions collide, Fixer Harry is left to clean up the fallout. Don't miss Mobland starring Tom Hardy, Pierce Brosnan, and Helen Mirren. Let chaos reign September 18th on Paramount+. This episode is brought to you by Born in Roma fragrances by Valentino Beauty, the iconic fragrance duo.

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30:23Joanna Robinson:Okay, so Diana Tavener is now first desk. Yes. And we meet this new character, Oliver Nash. and he is the chair of limitations committee, which means he, which he alludes to, he oversees the budget. Yes. So. So is he a political appointee? Like how, I guess I was trying to figure out what the liaison relationship was here exactly. I think so. But something, so something that McHeron has said is that like the reason he introduced this character in the book is he's like, I like to think of the government as a business. And it's like when you work your way up to CEO, then you're like, oh, I've made it.

31:04Joanna Robinson:But then there's, you have to answer the shareholders. You know, like there's just always some other level above you. So this is where we find Diana Tavener still having to answer to someone. What do you make of this new character? Has to be a significant part of the season. And I say that in part just because you don't bring in Lucian Masamati unless you want him to do some serious shit. Is it Conclave? What's your touch point for him? Mostly Conclave for me. Okay, yeah. But also, like, I mean... Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones. Huge theater present and background. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course.

31:37This is a heavyweight actor to have just, like, walking through the park.

31:41Joanna Robinson:Yeah. And so between this and, like, his interactions with Peter Judd, you can see, I think, surrounding Tavern with another very political animal is, like, a nice, smart counterpoint after the Claude Whelan experience. And the way that like at the funeral, Peter Judd's like, he's an operator. Look out for him. We all know what he's been up to. Nosh or Nash, look out. We know where he's been. Yeah. My version of like, you don't call this guy for one scene is my fave. Harry Lloyd is here. I'm so, I mean, Kylo Soller being here is very important to me. But Harry Lloyd, who plays Damien Cantor. Yes.

32:14I would say we know two things about Damien Cantor so far. Yeah. Owns a cable company or a network or a TV network of some kind. loves a black-on-black suit combination. I don't know.

32:24Joanna Robinson:Can I read you the description of him from the book? Please do. Okay. She had a longstanding aversion of being told what she knew, though it had been a long while since anyone had dared. And this particular man, Damien Cantor, had probably been in school then. He was mid-30s now, treading the line between being a noise in the business world and still hip to the three-day stubble in trainers. When they went on about 60 being the new 40, they forgot to add that that made 30-somethings the new 12. So, that's Mick Heron's description. Deeming Harry Lloyd, you know, again, another Thrones actor, Nina Gold, who casts Game of Thrones, casts Slow Horses, so she pulls from that trough a lot, but also, you know, stage actors and stuff like that.

33:09When you say trough, I just think of Sam in Old Town, and I don't like the mental image there.

33:13Joanna Robinson:You don't think of horses? I guess. Harry Lloyd, also in a great Doctor Who episode. I'm a huge fan of him. But yeah, here he is playing like a here to show us about billionaires infiltrating political influence via the media. Sure. Getting the VIP treatment. Really excited to see him here. Exchanging a lot of meaningful glances with Peter Judd. So let's be nervous. To the like storytelling tells of this, like just conspicuously handsome. You know, there's just people who pop up and it's like you're You're too good looking to be in one episode of this show. Too tall to be Bond. Too tall. It's a gift and a curse.

33:57Joanna Robinson:All right. So what I love about this is when Diana, you know, has her assistant call her away with a bogus code name. I have a question about that. I'd like to circle back to. Okay, great. Thank you so much. It's a cat-based question, I'm sure. She gets to say, second desk will take care of you. And I'm sure that felt great. How long has she waited? Yeah. And I don't know that, like, I don't know that guy. No. And so I think that's kind of interesting that they haven't, like, cast, like, someone as second desk. And so it's just sort of like, second desk will take care of you. Well, Diana Taverner's been the only second desk of note.

34:31Everybody else, it's a vice presidential job, you know? How much work can you really do?

34:36Joanna Robinson:What's your question, your Code Vulcan question you want to ask me? Yeah, so Code Vulcan, as you alluded to, is the fake call to get Diana Taverner back onto the job. I ask you, Joanna Robinson. Yeah. co-host of House of R. Sure, noted cat person. Acclaimed cat person. Acclaimed, sure. Is Vulcan a good cat name? Oh, yeah, I think so. You don't think so? I don't know. I was kind of torn on it. It seemed a little... Do you think it's Vulcan as in Star Trek or Vulcan as in the Roman god? It only occurred to me at Star Trek. Okay, does it change your mind if it's the Roman god? Well, I actually don't know much about Vulcan, the Roman god.

35:09Joanna Robinson:It's Hephaestus, the Greek god Hephaestus. Yeah. I don't know. That's where we get Vulcano. I don't know that I love either interpretation for a cat, But I'm not a cat guy, so I can't speak to their culture. My vision of Vulcan, this cat, is like a very tall, slinky, short hair, black male cat. It's definitely named Vulcan. Okay. Yeah. I'm pro. Look, you're the expert. I defer to you on all things. Thank you. Cat. Yes. Sorry. All things dot, dot, dot. Cat.

35:40Joanna Robinson:Okay. I'm sorry. This might be my favorite part of the whole episode. The horses try to offer River condolences, right? Yes. Roddy Ho. Rob, I know you're an active Googler when you're watching an episode. I am, yeah. Did you look this up? I did look this up. Okay, so what does Roddy Ho say and where perhaps would he have drawn such inspiration? The first thing he says is grief river is merely the shadow of love. Beautiful. Which I couldn't find that attributed anywhere. That just seems like an authentic Roddy Ho original. Truly. And not a bad one. I think quite good. Yeah. Could have stopped there.

36:12Could have stopped there, but he continues. if one day the speed kills me, do not cry because I was smiling. Yeah. A quote I can only find grossly misattributed to Paul Walker.

36:23Joanna Robinson:The only phrase is grossly misattributed. I mean, let's be clear. There's no evidence he has ever said this. It's a widespread delusional notion that the Internet has that Paul Walker somehow, you know, envisioning his future horrific death by automobile once said, if one day the speed kills me, don't cry because I was smiling. Do you think Roddy Ho believes that that is something Paul Walker said? A thousand percent. Do you think Roddy Ho has it written on anything like? On his body. He has it tattooed. Oh, it tattooed. Tramp stamp. People do have this tattooed on their body. I did find that via Googling.

36:59Here's the thing. If you're getting a tattoo, if you're getting a tattoo out there and it's a quote of any kind.

37:05Joanna Robinson:Make sure it's attributed. Fucking Google it. Just once. make sure it's a real quote or at least coming from where you think it's coming from. It's not like a Hitler throwaway line from somewhere. Like, I just think you need to double check these things. No Hitler bonbons, please, on your body. Yeah, I read one. I mean, I did some Googling about this, but one article I read was just this journalist in sheer shock that this was a made up quote. So he's like, I found out this isn't even a real quote. And I tried to get to the bottom of it and I can't find where it came from. It doesn't even sound like the cadence of a person talking.

37:41Joanna Robinson:Yeah. And I think this is pre sort of the proliferation of AI, but it sounds very AI. Like, what did Paul Walker say before he died? If one day the speed kills me, don't cry because I was smiling. Whoever put this in the script for Roddy Ho to say, thank you so much. It was delightful. And I would say justifiably earns a dart to the back from Shirley. Yes. And the very particular Yelp that Chris Chung lets out, magnificent. Who are you most? who that we saw in this episode, because I know that there are some other people you're excited to see this season, but who that we saw in this episode were you most excited to be back with?

38:16I think the answer right now is River. And he's just been like around the bend with so many like, again, side stories or family stories. And clearly there's going to be some shade of that here. But I'm just looking forward to him getting back to like good old fashioned spycraft. Like just getting down in the dirt with everybody else again. And I say that in part, like I love Shirley and Co.

38:34Joanna Robinson:Yeah. They seem poised as ever for comic relief more than anything. Although, you know it's a new season of Slow Horses because Shirley's got a new haircut yet again. I love it. It's like one of my favorites for her. I mean, I think she looks fantastic. If we did not have an email already, agentfringe at gmail.com would be right there. So good. But so other than that, it's like, can we have two bang based emails associated with our podcast? I think we can have as many as we dream up. Wow, Dr. Fringe. That's for the pit UK spin off. The pit UK. Dr. Fringe. I think it could work over there. Look, if they if they produce the pit on a slow horse's filming schedule?

39:08Could you even imagine? Oh my God.

39:09Joanna Robinson:But is it six episodes? I think so. It's a shorter shift. It's a shorter shift. They have better work-life balance over there. Great. They can clock out. How aware are you of My Brilliant Career, the Netflix TV series? Not. So it stars, it's an Australian Netflix TV series. It stars Chris Chung. It just came out quite recently. It's like a period piece. He is the like - What is the period? Early 20th century. Okay. He is the romantic lead of this show. And so I just like for all the Roddy Ho heads out there, I really recommend you check out my brilliant career. I can 100 percent see it. He's also that particular brand of TV or film nerd where it's like this dude's just jacked.

39:47And yeah. And like they played that into the story at a certain point.

39:49Joanna Robinson:But like like let's be real. If you saw Chris Young on the street, you'd be like that guy is super hot. That's also canonical. Like literally even the counter spies last season were like this dude's a piece of meat. Yeah. Super hot. Let's not pretend he doesn't have his functions in society. Open your mouth and we are fine. Okay. All right. Emma Flight shows up to tell Jackson Lamb about Strunloy and he is enjoying a nice Italian lunch. We're not doing the usual noodles. This appears to be some pappardelle. Okay. Is what I would say. Yeah. Maybe some tagliatelle. So my question for you is like, but it's the important thing is that he can slurp.

40:28Joanna Robinson:It is a slurpable noodle. He simply must slurp. Yeah. If he's not slurping, he's not living. No. What is your ideal noodle shape? I'm not a slurper. Yeah. You're not known for it. Well, I mean, look, this is a trick question because it depends on the sauce. Okay. I think in a lot of, you know, if you're looking for like a slightly thicker, creamier, maybe like a vodka sauce, love a cavatappi personally. Yeah. A kind of corkscrew-y but with ridges situation. Love a bucatini. Otherwise, I like a thicker, like angel hair, get out of here. Anything too thin, not really my speed, but also fettuccine.

41:04I want kind of a sweet spot and mostly tubular.

41:07Joanna Robinson:Yeah, sweet spot, mostly tubular. Totally tubular. Where are you coming from? I mean, literally tubular. It's a word. I know you do. Leave me alone. Listen, I'm fond of a fusilli, honestly. I'm a fan. But in general, I'm a big pappardelle person. I really love pappardelle. You know what came up for me recently? What? when we were bringing on a lot of state fair related emails from our coverage of Furious for reasons that, I mean, defy explanation or memory, even for me, how I guess it was the canning debate. Yeah. A listener referred to, and I had heard this colloquially before, specifically in like upstate New York, central New York, the idea of referring to rigatoni as riggies, specifically chicken riggies.

41:50Joanna Robinson:Oh, I didn't enjoy that when you just said it. I don't ever enjoy it. The very thought that some people are out there. no offense to our particular email it's not their fault it's really a cultural plague but we gotta stop saying riggies if we're doing that before we leave this very crucial part of our slow horses conversation I want to shout out campanelle pasta which is sort of like the cone shape with the ridges on the edge of it really good you know to your point sauce catcher that's what it's all about a little burst of flavor as you're eating the campanelle How did you feel about the way that Jackson Lamb was eating this pappardelle and or how Emma navigated her interaction with him here?

42:33Him eating is upsetting as always. Always. But crucial to the show. We need these scenes. Usually, you know, it's more of like a usually a Chinese noodle situation. That's what I'm saying.

42:42Joanna Robinson:He's branching out. Or maybe just new businesses are popping up around Slough House, whatever it may be. I did love this scene, though. And I'm excited just from this episode alone. we have been holding out hope of like some signs of life from Emma Flight as an interesting well-rounded character. Yeah. And her going like around Taverner based on, in a hunch, based on reading this like report about like Shrewen's death specifically and like the kind of weird circumstances surrounding it. Like the combination of instinct and defiance plus someone who's like clearly intelligent has been shown to be but also has just been like a pawn for Lamb to run circles around in previous seasons.

43:19I'm just hoping this is the season and she gets her wings.

43:22Joanna Robinson:Would you describe your podcasting style as full of instinct and defiance? No, I would not. I hate to say I am a rule follower to the surprise of nobody. This is my lamb shank. There's not a ton of options, I would say. This would be my one critique of this episode. I really liked this episode. We should say there's a new showrunner helming this season. And so we were a little apprehensive about will the writing feel the same? You know, it's the same cast. Visually, it does not look that dissimilar. Well, Adam Randall, who directed this episode, directed all of season four. Emmy award-winning.

43:58Joanna Robinson:Yes. Slow Horses' director. Famously. Adam Randall. So visually looks similar. The cast is here. We're still doing McCarran books. But like, are we going to lose a little bit of the slice and dice of the dialogue? And I will say, I don't think Jackson Lamb said anything that just like blew my hair all the way back inside of this episode. There's one other one that I really love that I want to hold on to for now. But here he says the opinion on Shreun Loy is divided, complete waste of space. Some other people call that overly generous. So that would be my lambshank of the week. And also in a field of spectacular underachievers, he really did stand out as being entirely without fucking use.

44:32I mean, he really went on and on about Shreun Loy. Tough. Not undeserved in some ways. No, that guy sucked. Harsh, but that guy did suck. Also sucked at his job. Also betrayed the slow horses.

44:42Joanna Robinson:Did betray them, yes. We don't know anything about the poor woman who got shoved off a boat. No. You know. But he does his classic, like, I don't give a shit. Leave the file, though. Yeah. You know. And Emma clocks it, too. Yes. Like, that, to me, is some of the reward of this scene. That's the instinct. What about the defiance, though? We'll see about the defiance. And then he calls River. So here's my question. Yeah. Is this, like, an act of kindness to get River out of the office so he doesn't have to hear fake Paul Walker quotes anymore. But more like he knows that River is upset about David and he's like, let's go look at a crime scene.

45:21Joanna Robinson:He could have called anyone. He calls River. What do you make of that? I think it is an act of kindness. I'm just constantly looking for kernels of goodness from Jackson Lamb. You know, if he's not going to get it from his actual dad, from his spy dad, certainly. There is the gesture of kindness. But then they get there and I would present my Lamb Shank of the week. Like just him telling River, I'm going to do my best Jackson Lamb doing River Cartwright. When am I going to get back to the park? My granddad's dead. Well, like he has to like preserve normalcy. He can't treat him with kid gloves because then he'll know he's being handled.

46:01Joanna Robinson:So he's like, if he didn't cut him down, it would be weird. If he didn't viciously mock him, it would be strange. Honestly, you're right. Gives him some spy fatherly advice. River takes a few cracks at the container. Yeah. I don't know that much is resolved there, but the gesture does mean something. It was good to see River work off a little bit of steam there. Jackson Lamb, effortless detective work, just being like, looks like this piece of wood sure was used to hold this door shut. They didn't hide it. No. Is that your note for Jane? I don't know that it is. Fling the wood further? Well, I would say this.

46:31First of all, we don't really know what their intentions are or if they mean.

46:34Joanna Robinson:If they want to be caught or not. If they want to call attention to something. Like, we've seen that in so many Slow Horses seasons where the initial actions are like, a diversion effectively? Or is there a reason they want to call attention to picking off the slow horses specifically, which seems to be their goal? Did you get nervous when you heard who calls their child, who the fuck calls their child River? I honestly thought she made some great points. Points for me. I mean, what? We got River Phoenix. Sure. We got Rivers Cuomo. Uh-huh. River Song. Yeah. I mean, kinda. Melody Pond. Kinda. Let's be real.

47:12Joanna Robinson:I think River's a cool name. But there aren't many Rivers. No. So it is a little bit of like a who the fuck names their kid River. Sure. Did I tell you that I met a listener named Strider? Did I tell you this? You did, and it was upsetting. Would you like to share the story? Well, just that he was born the year Return of the King came out, and this is the second podcast I've talked about him on, so I'm sorry, Strider. But I just think, I just genuinely think it's a very cool name. It is a cool name, but there's no Strider in Return of the King, I would say. At that point, he's fully Aragorn. My friend.

47:39Joanna Robinson:I'm just saying. He is eternally Strider in here. Is he? Yes. But spiritually, he's given up. Just because he's washed his hair doesn't mean he has washed the ranger out of him. I think he kind of has. That's the whole point. You think Arwen would stay married to a king that has not a scrap a ranger in him? I think the scrap is there, but pretending he is... A ranger? He's gone on his car. He's not Strider, you know? Like, once you put the crown on, you're not a ranger. I'm just sorry. Your old life is behind you. take from someone who doesn't even watch the extended edition. I prefer the superior version.

48:12Joanna Robinson:Here's my, here's actually my main, main issue with this episode. An episode I quite liked. The Catherine stuff. Which part? Well, when she goes to the park, I mean, I did like the part where she was like fondling Moira's inkjet printer. So like that. The printer envy was very good. That was great. She sees Charles' photo. Like, and it is important, A, for us to see her seeing Charles' photo to remind us of her relationship to Charles. And then like, you know, eyes a bottle of booze, lest we forget like, you know, what her foibles are or whatever. But then the reveal at the funeral, that like extremely clumsy reveal where Diana in public is like, I'm not Charles, don't shoot me.

48:55I just thought that was like a deeply -

48:57Joanna Robinson:A little odd. Unhinged thing that Diana Taverner would not say in public. And then for Catherine to like fall over and run away. I just thought that was all very clumsily executed. Diana Taverner's so calculated. Yeah. That like, yes, the idea of, I'm going to say this in front of Catherine Standish, I don't believe, know this information, sure. But as you say, out in public? Yeah, surrounded by all these, the Department of Transport. Doesn't track whatsoever. Luminaries, yeah. And frankly, I mean, so all of that has been parceled out in such small doses since the very beginning of the show. Like what happened to Charles Parner and we have been led in as an audience to know that Jackson Lamb killed him.

49:32Joanna Robinson:And when will Catherine find out? Yeah. I honestly kind of forgot that she didn't know. Yeah. I thought like - You and Diana Taverner both were like, Catherine doesn't know this yet? Well, I thought the reveal at the end of season three was the whole truth. Right. But I believe the reveal at the end of season three was she found out that he was a traitor, not necessarily who had to deal with him. In this case, Lamb was the assassin sent to kill him. And so getting one more kick out of like that pinata, unnecessary. Yeah. But I loved Catherine Standish in the rest of this episode. I'm never going to be mad at her being centered in plot.

50:06No. It did. It did. That part did seem clunky.

50:08Joanna Robinson:It just didn't feel as smoothly written as the rest of the show often is. Can we talk about the Moira part of that, though, before we even get to the later scenes? Is it because Trigorian is one of the best names that has ever existed in fiction? Phenomenal. Moira Trigorian. Great, great name. What do you want to say? I mean, one, I think just reintroducing her, yet another like Slough House alum. but I believe canonically the only literally the only person who has ever gone from Slough House back to the park like they make a big show through all these seasons of like no one has ever actually done this but Moira's actually found her way back up you can see why she would be a little touchy about people talking about that in the halls she's like you stay here I don't need anyone to see you with me but she also sets up what for me is such a critical part of the Slow Horse's experience which is all of these seasons are like comedies of accountability it's like no one wants to be holding the bag when it blows up.

50:59And so for Moira, it's like, whatever's going on with Sly House in the database, I don't want it on me. I need to clear my reputation. She passes it off to Tavern effectively. Same thing. Oh, it must be a glitch. It must be an oversight because we're overhauling the system. Must it? I mean, in the world of slow horses, you must introduce the possibility that this is clearly for reasons that are beyond my fault.

51:19Joanna Robinson:If ex-slow horses are being bumped off, does going back to the park count as being an ex-slow horse? I think it still does. Formally of Slough House. I guess it depends on whatever it is that these assassins are after. Like, why would they be targeting Slough House specifically? I mean, it's interesting because they're clearly not after information because they're not interrogating anyone before they, you know, bump them off. They have a boss, they mentioned. I feel like that's real. It wasn't just Bantz. And so, yeah, I don't know what they're up to. But, like, why would they want, why would they need to kill?

51:52Joanna Robinson:Is it because they know something? And so they all have to be erased. But how would every slow horse know something? What would they know? Especially like, Struen knows nothing. What Jackson Lamb smells like. That they all share. If you've been in that building, it never really washes off you. I'm sure. You can live on a boat your whole life and it'll never leave you. That was tough. I mean, I've always kind of wanted to live on a narrowboat, though. That's a nice little houseboat. She's got a good situation. Narrowboats are like really cool looking. And she just got decked and pushed into the river and drowned.

52:24Joanna Robinson:Yeah. It's not the way I would like to go. No? Probably not. Better that than burning in a shipping container, I think. Oh, look, if you're going to pick and choose, that would be the preference. Absolutely. But hopefully there's cleaner ways for the other slow horses to die yet. Yeah, peacefully in your sleep, please, Jane and Jim. You're taking requests. I request. It's the least they could do. Just slip something in the tea and I'll be fine. All right, River flashes back to David dying. And he does it after he's like vigorously polishing his shoes, eating lonely in front of the television. and then we get this flashback.

52:58Joanna Robinson:This was so sad. We'll talk more, which, I mean, we don't know if this is the final conversation, but it kind of feels like it was the final conversation. We'll talk more, and they won't. David's saying, like, I'll miss you. I won't miss living without her, but I'll miss you. Davos. Davos, Dave. Are you trying to kill me? And then he's crying. Jonathan Price is sitting there in the bed, like tears on his face as he dies. I mean, it feels like this is probably the last we will see of Jonathan Pryce on this show. I guess there's always the possibility of another flashback to come or something. Other like deathbed flashbacks.

53:37I mean, either way, either deathbed or like backstory for various spy hijinks.

53:41Joanna Robinson:I did like the photos that they chose to like show us because so often in those cases, it's like a badly photoshopped, like young Jack Loudon with like a young Jonathan Pryce. But they just showed us like a very young, very dashing Jonathan Pryce. and you can sort of like see him as a young spy, like during the Cold War or something like that. And then, you know, Jonathan Pryce with the kiddo on his shoulder who could have been anyone is from far enough away that it's just sort of like, well, this do? And they're like, sounds great. It did do. I always think about those conversations when like you're an actor starring in something and the production team's like, we're gonna need some of your personal family photos.

54:15I was thinking about this the other day too, like the logistics of, does like some executive assistant email your mom? Do you bring the photos in? Like what is happening? to get those in the right hands to be like frankly poorly photoshopped most of the time. Absolutely. But I just found myself very grateful for this scene. Like Jonathan Price has been a really, like fun isn't the right word, but such an interesting character to have on this show. And someone who brings out sometimes the worst in Jackson Lamb. Yeah. These like self-destructive but also aspirational parts of River. Like he's such a great foil for those two specifically that losing him is a loss for the narrativization of the show.

54:53But as I said before, I think he's also kind of run his course as a part of it.

54:56Joanna Robinson:It is interesting in a show that is so stubbornly anti-character development to see sort of like what this does to River. We already saw some changes in River when, you know, the dementia started getting to his grandfather and he lost that touchstone that he had in his life. But it's interesting. So they've already filmed series seven. This is series six. They've already filmed series seven and they are currently filming series eight. I don't know how many seasons they're running out of books, I think. And, you know, not that that's stopped anyone before, but like, I don't know. Usually goes very well.

55:27Joanna Robinson:I don't. Yeah. I don't know how long they're planning to do this. And I don't know because I'm unfamiliar sort of where the story goes after these books, like what McHeron has in mind for River and stuff like that. But like is the death does the death of David Cartwright like do something definitive to River to change his life in some way or another. I don't know. How does it nudge him? How does it move him? I mean, I would say throughout the show has been an exercise in him trying to fit into his grandfather's suit. And so him literally doing it in this episode is just kind of icing on the cake.

56:04Joanna Robinson:So that's my, so these are our recurring bits, right? Lamb shanks, best use of spycraft, worst use of spycraft, and then like coat watch. Or fit watch more broadly, I would say. I will say River Cartwright in his grandfather's suit at the funeral. He looks very nice. Giving a Department of Transport eulogy. It's pretty funny. Him listing off various transportation vehicles as lamb cackles. And then going on and then looping back. Mini buses. But actually the biggest laugh I got in that funeral scene, and we love a laugh during a funeral scene, was Diana Taverner staring daggers at Peter Judd during the hymn that they were singing.

56:43Joanna Robinson:The severity. Yeah, it was just sort of like, just the way the camera caught her in focus and then pulled focus into Peter Judd. And she's just behind their shoulders, just like staring them down. I mean, I think we kind of fast forwarded through that part, Peter Judd back. Yeah. And this man cannot die. No. Cannot be canceled. Yeah. Cannot be implicated. Yeah. And I, frankly, I would not have it any other way. So you described the way that Diana Tavenner made it to first desk as slithering. Which I like. What would you, how would you describe the way that Peter Judd just keeps, is he an oozer?

57:13Joanna Robinson:What does he do? Well, he's just a straight cockroach. So it's more of a crawl on the wall situation. There's just no, like, there's nothing you can do with that guy. He will always find some other big bag of money to hide under, some table to crawl behind. And honestly, too, like Samuel West is almost concerningly good at playing Peter Judd. Yeah. Just like the very specific, smarmy, blowhard energy he brings to this character. Wonderful. And like, there's a reason he keeps coming back. He's such a useful device for the show. But he's also just like such an awesome presence to play off of in these scenes.

57:45Joanna Robinson:What I think is a really fun aspect of the show is that Peter Judd, so I think McCarran tries not to do like necessarily a ton of one-to-one comps of like people to their fictional counterparts. But Peter Judd is reportedly based on Boris Johnson and the way he's described in the book is much more Boris Johnson-y in like his slovenly appearance and his hair and stuff like that. So to cast Samuel West, who's just like a very neat and tidy man, you know, they like really went against the type of how he's depicted in the book and the real world comp for him. But I think it just makes it all that like he's absolutely a disgusting, reprehensible person in this neat and tidy little package that I just think makes him scarier.

58:28Completely scary. And it's made him very realistic, too, in terms of in some of these series being like an alt-right kind of manifestation. Yeah, like there is the Boris Johnson part, but there's there's so many different political energies in him for whatever the plot needs. And so far in this season, it's just like a dude who is a mover and a manipulator who also gets his rocks off at like a Russian bot farm being attacked.

58:52Joanna Robinson:So he has something on Diana, seemingly, right? Does he? Well, she's like, where did the money come from? Oh, yeah. So that's that's one of the revelations of this episode, right? The money that was purportedly seized from him was fronted by somebody else. And I thought the implication of this conversation was, I know where that money came from. You're not going to like where that money came from. I think that's definitely the implication. Okay, so that's what I mean by he has something on her, which is like he has information about some money that she has used in some way or another. And so, you know, here she is, brand new first desk, already compromised in some way or another.

59:31She looked a little shook at that reveal.

59:33Joanna Robinson:Yeah, didn't go over well for her. River's dad shows up. I mean, you know, shout out to Shirley and Co. who do show up to the funeral. They do. They don't go in. We're promised a sausage roll. I mean, I'm trying to think of like, would I go to a funeral for a sausage roll? A co-worker's funeral? I would go. Or a co-worker's relative's funeral, I should say. I would go to any, if I was invited to a co-worker's relative funeral, I would definitely go. Okay, I'm just trying to think of the thing I would least like to do that I would definitely do for a sausage roll. Yeah, it's like the UK version of what we do for a Klondike bar.

1:00:10You're just creating like a whole advertisement campaign for Greg's.

1:00:16Joanna Robinson:All right, that's just something to ponder. I guess email us, you know? What would you do for a Greg's? Ourstimethepopeatgmo.com. It better be a Greg's. Catherine better get a name brand sausage roll. I know we discussed this previously. Is Greg's the cream of the crop? Yeah. Or just the name brand? It is both the most popular and I think the cream of the crop at the same time, but I could be wrong. I'm down for like an artisan sausage roll. Somebody out there is doing the work. Oh, someone at home. Like a Nigella's recipe for a sausage roll. I just think you can probably find a sausage roll guy, you know?

1:00:45Joanna Robinson:Oh, okay. Off the grid a little bit. There's like a weird like Facebook listing you have to respond to and you can just order like six sausage rolls. I think I would be, I think I would be. Not for one person. I just don't understand. No, it wasn't that. It was like your dark web sausage roll. Oh, no, I'm just thinking of it as like the British parallel of like finding a tamale lady, you know? Oh, my God. Like you just, there are times in your life where you need to go to the dark web for food. Well, the tamale ladies of San Francisco would just find you. You would be at Zeitgeist. It would be two in the morning and she would roll in with her little case of tamales.

1:01:17I welcome it. But sometimes you want tamales on your own time. Okay. You'll be master of your own domain.

1:01:22Joanna Robinson:Maybe that's a Bay Area privilege. And here in L.A. you need to go and find your tamales. Hugo Weaving is back as Frank Harkness How did you feel about that? I would say, anecdotally Season 4 of Slow Horses is like Among the more controversial Of this otherwise quite beloved show Not our favorite And we didn't like love the Frank Harkness stuff In that season Not Hugo Weaving's fault No, it depends how they use him I thought he was great in this I mean, this is just a horrifying thing To watch River go through no good very bad day so it just depends how they use him for the rest of the season I think for sure like I don't think it's I'm not like oh this character's back but you know I don't want to go back to the energy of season 4 series 4 I suppose I'm hoping we can rewrite some of that like give us a better feeling about who this character can be in the context of the story when he isn't dominating it yeah alright any of the categories that you want to name that we haven't gotten to my fit watch Catherine Standish when she rolls into Slough House.

1:02:25Joanna Robinson:In the rain. Beautiful brown overcoat. Okay. Scarf game on point. Yeah. But in particular, just like a nice little plaid hat situation that I think really suits her. That makes me really happy. I love Catherine Sandish. How about you? Do you have any leftovers? I think I did not name my worst use of spycraft. Oh, I also did not do that. And it is true and loyal. That's got to be it. I mean. Just no questions asked. Just obliviously these very well-dressed, vaguely European looking hot people. Now listen. If he's like, are they looking for a third? Something like that. Perhaps. Yeah. This is a man who used to be married with children.

1:03:01Joanna Robinson:But no spidey senses are tingling when these two show up. There's nothing tingling. Yeah. I mean, died as he lived. Sad and inept, unfortunately. Sad and inept. All right. Anything else? I do have two small little things to circle back to. Yeah. One, when Lamb and River have kind of ascertained what might have happened with Struant and Lamb calls Roddy. Yeah. Like, okay, pull up whatever list we have of slow horses. Find if any have been killed under mysterious circumstances lately. Roddy is playing, I believe it's Ghost of Tsushima, but it could be Ghost of Yotei. It's hard to tell one from the other, to be honest with you.

1:03:36Joanna Robinson:I had the same problem. But puts it down immediately and does his job. I was like, How'd you feel about it? Is this growth? Is this development? It's like, I just never, In all of my years, never would have thought Roddy Ho would like take an order and do it. No, like no ifs, ands or buts. No little barb. Do you think it's because his life might be on the line? I don't know. He seems pretty casual the rest of the time. He's just like bumping EDM and throwing darts. Okay. So like he didn't seem too worried. I would say the other thing I wanted to bring up, this is not SponCon. But when Frank gets back in his car.

1:04:12Joanna Robinson:To be clear, the Greggs shout out is SponCon. That part might be. We're eagerly courting a Gregg sponsorship. We'll work for Greggs. Yes. When Frank gets in his car, River jumps on the hood, throws River off, and does like a pinpoint turn around River without running him over. I just think if you're out there, it is a Volvo. Yeah. I mean, look, let's say this for balance. Volvo, the vehicle of super assassin murderers everywhere. Okay. But also, if you're looking to smoothly navigate around someone you've just thrown off your hood, I was amazed by its maneuverability. Okay. Does the person need to be a neglected child of yours?

1:04:49I find it to be most effective if they are.

1:04:50Joanna Robinson:Okay, okay. I think, remind me, in Series 4, that was also a Volvo, right? Like the car that had a bunch of stuff hidden in it that they took apart? I think you may be right. And spiritually, Slow Horses being a Volvo show does check out. I love a Volvo. Look, no slights, but this is where we are in the pecking order. It's a practical car. All right, anything else? I think we did it, Joe. I mean, you sounded mostly positive about this episode. How are you feeling? I'm positive, but I'm just on the lookout for things that feel slightly less sharp just to see. But maybe it will feel sharper. And I am excited about, you know, if we're smashing two Mekharon books together and it's still a six episode season, that sounds like a lot of potentially fun plot all smashed together.

1:05:39Joanna Robinson:Excited for all the people we've seen in the trailers who might be in this season. excited for chickens, various chickens coming home to roost. Like, I just think, I think the potential for the season is really high. And I hope the, the like dialogue writing matches sort of the plot possibilities of the season. You know? I love a roost. I love reaping and sowing. Yeah. I love all of our old friends returning. And I mean, I just am beyond ecstatic at the prospect, the trailer based prospect that Louisa The guy will be back in our lives very soon. So look, dare I wish for episode two? Should I be so greedy that she would be back so soon?

1:06:20But they haven't even started putting together the why of slow horses, why slow horses are being hunted.

1:06:25Joanna Robinson:Because she would be an ex-slow horse. Clearly, I mean, presumably at least on hiatus. I don't know what her status is exactly at this point, but you would think that's how she's going to get pulled into the fold along with anybody else. She and River were really close. She's not at the funeral. But she's gone like no contact too. So she might just not know. Oh, tough. And that was hidden. And he didn't even try to call her. That was hidden way in the metro section because he's, you know, working for the Department of Transport. Very good. Where would you put this episode in terms of like season premieres for Slow Horses?

1:06:53I thought this was really promising. Yeah. Not like propulsive in the ways that you want to see the initial kind of mystery set. And I think the dialogue worked a little better for me. I think the Catherine Sanders thing you're right to point out with Diana Taverner was a little clunky.

1:07:07Joanna Robinson:I don't think overall it felt like a different show by any stretch of the imagination. I think I'm just like, my hackles are slightly erased, but we'll see. We'll see how it goes. And we didn't get to see Jackson Lamb's toe at any point. And that's, you know, that's always a disappointment. I'm okay with that. Are you? You want more toe? I don't know. It's just like a main character of the show at this point. So I feel like we need to see it. Yeah. All right. So arstimethepope at gmail.com. If you want to give us an anglophile test, if you want to tell us what you would do for a sausage roll, this is normal.

1:07:36Your favorite pasta?

1:07:37Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Your favorite pasta shape, et cetera, et cetera. or we'd love to hear it. Press TGV at Spotify.com if you have stranger questions that you want to send us for our mailbag episode. Any Slow Horses theories. Oh, yes. Other characters you would like to see come back. Well, how about this? You know, stay with me for a second. Okay. I mean, what if we just, there's already a lot of Game of Thrones alum on this show. Sure. Somebody pounds a staff, someone's eyes light up a little blue and there comes Min Harper out from the grave. Wow. I mean, look, all slow horses must return. You know, they must be called back.

1:08:16They must be protected even in death.

1:08:18Joanna Robinson:I would love to see Min again. Zombie Min, if it looks like Zombie Min would be incredible. If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. Zombie Marcus too? I mean, clearly. Okay, great. I don't think Shirley's ever been the same since. I agree, I agree. The French tells the tale. All right, so we will be back with Slow Horses episode two. Some other fun stuff we're cooking up. Thank you to our Slough house here. Seems disrespectful. Our park. Well, even that seems disrespectful. I don't know which one's better at this point. Our extremely hot assassin duos. There we go. Okay. Kai Grady, Debra Rinaldo, Jacob Cornett.

1:08:57Joanna Robinson:We appreciate you all and we'll see you soon. Bye.

1:09:11This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Now, this is a player in the food space that has championed winning food standards and quality since 1980. That means no added growth hormones or antibiotics in their meat and no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in their deli meats, hot dogs, or sausages. Plus all their seafood is responsibly farmed or wild caught. They've even banned some ingredients store-wide to make sure there's nothing to mess with the flavors you want. shop Whole Foods Market in store or online.

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