‘Task’ Episode 6 With Creator Brad Ingelsby

6:31Joanna Robinson:Because there's a lot between this and the Emmys. There's like the Pit season two, a bunch of other stuff that's coming. But I think Pelfrey, you know, Mare won a ton of Emmys for people, right?

6:43Bill Simmons:Yeah. And so I would love to see Pelfrey win for this.

6:46Joanna Robinson:I think he's so good in the show. So we think, and I think Ruffalo was really good too,

6:51Bill Simmons:but I think Pelfrey's the one, the first character you remember from this show would be my guess.

6:57Joanna Robinson:I think so. Though it depends what they do with Grasso in the finale because all of this is now coalescing around Grasso's character, right? In a major way. So that's interesting.

7:08Bill Simmons:Hold that thought. We'll get to Grasso. Okay. because the other person that died is Lizzie.

7:14Joanna Robinson:Were you surprised that Lizzie and Robbie died so early in the episode? Because they died before -

7:20Bill Simmons:I was shocked by the Lizzie death. I don't know why I didn't see it coming, but they set it up perfectly with the hearing thing. That's always a great gimmick in movies or shows like this when somebody gets shot too close to the ear. Yeah, it's ringing. Copland did it really well with Stallone.

7:35Joanna Robinson:And the sound design on it was really good.

7:38Bill Simmons:And then you just kind of lose your bearings and you can't hear anything anymore. And you're just.

7:43Joanna Robinson:I thought it was wild that. So Robbie and Lizzie die in the first 15 minutes. And then they put the title up task. So it's essentially like the cold open for the episode. Yeah. Are these two big deaths. And we had been worried about.

7:58Bill Simmons:Well, there are other deaths too. I mean, there was like, what, five?

8:00Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

8:01Bill Simmons:Three other ones too. Yeah. Yeah.

8:02Joanna Robinson:But like, we've been worried about Lizzie and Grasso sort of coming to a head. If one of them's a mole, what's going to happen? They've been setting this up. The running worry about Lizzie freezing or not, what's she going to do? This is, this is to me almost worse than Grasso killing her. Because that's something we worried might happen, that he would shoot her. This is almost worse, or at least juicier dramatically.

8:28Bill Simmons:He basically did kill her, he just didn't kill her. Right. Yeah, which is worse. he's

8:32Joanna Robinson:he can't take ownership of it

8:34Bill Simmons:yeah

8:34Joanna Robinson:but he's still responsible for it

8:37Bill Simmons:the car thing was abrupt and and brutal yeah and uh and then of course everybody gets to see it too but tough one there's no death scene for Lizzie she's just dead

8:48Joanna Robinson:well she's he's holding her but it was like what happened she's just fucking gone

8:54Bill Simmons:yeah

8:54Joanna Robinson:I think that um I love that shot too she turns to camera and then she's hit by the car yeah um Aaliyah and Grosso running towards her, but neither of them make it in time. I thought all of that was really good. And I think what's even sadder, because they set up last episode, right? Someone's going to have to call out from the radio from the car with no reception. So we were wondering about that. But she's calling for backup. But what's so tragic is backup's already there, right? Like that guy goes to pick up Tom and he's like, oh, my deputies are right behind me. So she did all of that for nothing because they were coming anyway.

9:29Joanna Robinson:Sad.

9:30Bill Simmons:Tough one. Big winner though. Who is the actress?

9:33Joanna Robinson:Alison Oliver.

9:34Bill Simmons:Yeah, big winner. She's really good in this.

9:36Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

9:37Bill Simmons:And Grasso now is just evil.

9:41Joanna Robinson:I hate Grasso now. Okay. Interesting. I loved this episode for Grasso because the scene that he has with Michael Dorsey and that actor whose name I didn't write down, we did get an email about it a couple of weeks ago. Someone was surprised that we didn't call out that he's one of the guys in Risky Business, like one of Cruz's friends in Risky Business.

10:00Bill Simmons:That's Cruz's friend who has sex with the hooker in the upstairs? That's the same guy?

10:04Joanna Robinson:So they were like - Gabriel Sabar. You know my favorite like casting spoiler thing? Yeah. Someone's like, that guy's coming back. He's the guy from Risky Business. And so -

10:13Bill Simmons:Oh, that's good.

10:14Joanna Robinson:Him showing up with an all time like corrupt cop like movie name, Michael Dorsey, right? Michael Dorsey, great corrupt cop name. I love that scene with the two of them in the kitchen right when he puts his head under the water Grasso's like do you tell him I was a good boy and Grasso's grappling with all this and then the scene with Grasso and Tom like this was such a good Grasso episode and I'm so

10:38Bill Simmons:you missed I thought he was good in the extended shootout with

10:43Joanna Robinson:oh yes

10:43Bill Simmons:trying to navigate the bad guys and doing that stuff and being sneaky but also being locked into what was happening and I also didn't know if he was going to turn on Lizzie at any point point. Like when he's behind her, when she has that guy lined up, was he just going to shoot her from behind? Like everything was in play. It was good.

11:02Joanna Robinson:Very tense. So you just hate him. You don't feel sorry for him at all? No, I love the character. You don't feel sorry for him at all?

11:10Bill Simmons:Why would I feel sorry for him?

11:11Joanna Robinson:I don't know. I think there's something like really -

11:13Bill Simmons:You just like him. You're like, no, Grasso's misunderstood.

11:17Joanna Robinson:I don't think he's misunderstood. Obviously he is responsible for all of this, but there's all season he's been asking about asking Tom about God and faith and all this sort of stuff like that and so he's it's the kind of guy where like I don't want him to get away with it I'm not rooting for him that way he needs to be punished for what happened or have consequences but like he feels like a guy who made a mistake and then kept making those mistakes and the way that his boss like holds his head under the tap like he's his abusive dad. Like it was really twisted, like what's revealed about the nature of their relationship.

11:58Joanna Robinson:That was really interesting to me.

12:00Bill Simmons:Well, let's do this now. I was going to do it later, but let's do it now. So what do we think Grasso's backstory is? And maybe we're going to find out in this last episode a little bit, but we already, the stuff we learned in episode six about that he was being looked at suspiciously for some dark arts intelligence. So obviously he has a history of that. By the way, I mean, major nitpick. How does that not come up?

12:25Joanna Robinson:How did he get on the task force in the beginning? Yeah, because there were no charges, but it is vile.

12:30Bill Simmons:Of all the people to put on, we're putting this guy in the task?

12:33Joanna Robinson:I mean, a thought I had is that, you know, if his boss, Michael Dorsey, is also corrupt, which he is, if they say, hey, do you have someone for the task force? He's like, I'm going to put my guy Garasso on there because we want our own, you know, mole in there. Yeah. So he's got those connect because like he's not a one man corrupt job, right? It's a corrupt department.

12:54Bill Simmons:So is Michael Dorsey part of the Dark Hearts or just getting paid off by them? Do you think he actually belongs?

12:59Joanna Robinson:I don't think he's like patched in or anything like that, but I think he has a long history of passing them information. And Grosso, it's like Grosso feels newer to it. And Dorsey's like, don't fuck this up. We've got a good thing going.

13:15Bill Simmons:But he still has to have some sort of incredibly important thing hanging over Grasso.

13:22Joanna Robinson:Like why he, like what did he need the money for?

13:25Bill Simmons:This can't just be about like, we're funneling you a little extra money to do this. Like he's, this guy's.

13:29Joanna Robinson:I feel like once you do it, you have to keep doing it because then they have leverage on you. Right? Once you start, how do you stop? If your boss knows and is in on it too. How do you say no the next time?

13:41Bill Simmons:But you don't think that this all starts because Grasso made some mistake that they covered up for and they're like, this will never.

13:48Joanna Robinson:Oh, you think he made like a bad cop mistake? Oh, okay.

13:53Bill Simmons:I think there was a bad cop situation decision something. I think that's a technical term. Somebody took.

13:58Joanna Robinson:Bad cop mistake, yeah.

13:59Bill Simmons:Something. Sorry.

14:01Joanna Robinson:Excessive use of force. Somebody took care of some mistake that he made and they're like, it's basically like, I own you now. Yeah.

14:11Bill Simmons:do this. And then it's like, well, you did that. Now I really own you now. And now Grasso can't get out. Because we haven't seen Grasso, even though he's basically evil for setting up people and putting people in danger that he was working with all that stuff. But he also, we never actually saw him do anything evil.

14:29Joanna Robinson:That's why I object to the word evil, I guess, because I think what they keep trying to show us is him trying to save Tom or him trying, you know, he's just sort of like he's caught in the middle and he's done something to get himself in that position but i don't think he's like a bad half evil like maybe but like he's consumed by guilt she was a good person yeah this happened this is horrible like if he's evil he doesn't give a shit that lizzie died if he's evil he would have just like fucked her in that bed and not worried about it you know I think it's more interesting for him to be a guy who you're still kind of rooting for even though he did this thing.

15:09Bill Simmons:I'm not rooting for him anymore. Lizzie's dead and it's his fault. Grasso needs to be punished.

15:17Joanna Robinson:I think Aaliyah agrees with you.

15:19Bill Simmons:Yeah. Well, Aaliyah, who I think was our number one suspect for being the mall.

15:24Joanna Robinson:I don't think number one. I think we were bouncing around.

15:27Bill Simmons:One episode, we were like, she was the one.

15:30Joanna Robinson:She was on the board.

15:31Bill Simmons:Um, and now it's like, she's, she killed two people in the shootout.

15:36Joanna Robinson:Um, her, like her being a crack shot, her being a crack shot comes back, uh, to serve her.

15:43Bill Simmons:She figures out they're looking at the task group, all that stuff.

15:45Joanna Robinson:Do you like how they set up? So they gave us enough Lizzie and Grasso scenes so that we would understand the tragedy of

15:53Bill Simmons:I would have had more.

15:54Joanna Robinson:You would have more Lizzie and Grasso.

15:56Bill Simmons:I would have more Lizzie and Grasso, less the, the Ruffalo daughters. Family stuff.

16:00Joanna Robinson:And then we've got Lizzie and Aaliyah have like a couple scenes together so that we understand that Aaliyah, you know, when Aaliyah finds that patch on her desk. So like they really tried to establish Lizzie as someone that multiple people would care that she's dead, even though one of them is responsible for it.

16:19Bill Simmons:Interestingly, not Tom, not really a bond with Tom.

16:22Joanna Robinson:Yeah, no Lizzie Tom stuff.

16:23Bill Simmons:Tom's like, I have enough damaged daughters.

16:25Joanna Robinson:He's like, I've had a bunch of daughters. Yeah, I had a bunch of damage already. No thanks.

16:30Bill Simmons:Let's take a break and we got to talk about the Maeve part of this. Heat up your 4th of July at the Home Depot with our wide variety of grills under$300 and make every gathering one to remember. Give your outdoor space a glow up. Whatever your budget is, the savings on seasonal plants starting at$5. With the grill fired up and your backyard set to perfection, you'll be able to invite friends and family over to kick off the party. Start celebrating with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Prices may vary by store. Exclusions apply. See Home Depot.com slash price match for details. All right.

17:04Bill Simmons:So Tom goes to see Maeve.

17:06Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

17:07Bill Simmons:And he reminds her we've met before.

17:09Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

17:12Bill Simmons:And something really interesting happens with this. Tom, they go through all of it. And Tom pushes to let her go.

17:20Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

17:21Bill Simmons:It's like, what are we doing our trial for? What the fuck was this girl supposed to do? Like, what law did she break? and now we're going to make her life worse and these other two kids. I liked how they handled all that because I thought in my head, it's a pretty dark show, let's be honest. It's not a comedy.

17:37Joanna Robinson:You thought for several episodes that they were going to kill Sammy. They still might. Am I writing that off yet?

17:46Bill Simmons:I'm not. It's a dark show.

17:48Joanna Robinson:He's safe at home with Tom. You don't think he's safe?

17:51Bill Simmons:But I thought Maeve going to jail for the sins of the Pendergrass family was in play. I was like, really? Now we're going to fuck her life up too? It's already fucked up.

17:59Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

17:59Bill Simmons:But it actually worked out for her. But what did you think of that whole interplay? I love that because, you know, Robbie made Tom promise that he would protect Maeve. Well, it turns out it wasn't the only person he made a promise with.

18:14Joanna Robinson:That's true. And then also, I like this idea because we've been asking this question all season. Like, why is it interesting to have an FBI agent who was a priest? like what's interesting about that. And there's this idea of Tom as someone who believes in like a different kind of justice. Like what, you know, what is the law and then what is just? Yeah. And Tom is in here arguing with, you know, the lawyer, you know, the district attorney being like, is that, well, he wasn't even doing that. He wasn't even appealing to her better angels. He's just like, I don't think you'll get a jury on your side.

18:46Joanna Robinson:You know, he was just like nagging her case essentially. But his idea is like, in my sense of justice, which is a sort of divine, you know, given what I believe in justice, this isn't right. This isn't fair. What's happening to Maeve. And so the idea of someone like Tom being in this system and, you know, a system where this, this DA was excited to like throw the book at Maeve. And he's like, what purpose could that possibly serve? What are we doing here?

19:13Bill Simmons:I think in real life that doesn't happen all the time would be my guess.

19:17Joanna Robinson:Tom gets away with a lot of stuff. Tom just takes Sammy home with him. Well, that was the next thing.

19:22Bill Simmons:He adopted Sam, the bird-watching, animal-loving simpleton kid. Brings him in. He's a simpleton. By the way, no easier kid to adopt than Sam. It's like, just get him a couple Legos. He's good for like a week and a half.

19:37Joanna Robinson:He's got a Batman Lego set. So you call him a simpleton. Where are you in liking Sammy and wanting good things for him? I mean

19:49Bill Simmons:I definitely feel definitely feel terrible for Sam right feel bad for him

19:55Joanna Robinson:he made a little not an easy life he made a little Lego chicken named Gurney and he's like she's my friend is that not tugging at the old heartstrings Bill Simmons

20:07Bill Simmons:I would have liked a couple scenes with Sam wondering what the Philly score was or just a couple extra couple extra things for him Tom's kids work confused.

20:17Joanna Robinson:This seems highly... I understand that he's technically a foster in the foster system or something like that, but this seemed highly...

20:25Bill Simmons:He's like Mia Farrow. He's just collecting kids in his house.

20:28Joanna Robinson:I was like, you can't just take him home. Is this

20:30Bill Simmons:leading to the last scene of the show, episode seven, which neither of us have watched

20:36Joanna Robinson:yet, of a

20:38Bill Simmons:big dinner table scene with the two daughters, with the kid who's in jail, whatever, who's going to get out. That's probably happening. Ethan in episode seven, Sam and Maeve.

20:54Joanna Robinson:And the two kids.

20:55Bill Simmons:They're all at the table. I don't think the two kids are invited. It's probably a table for six.

21:00Joanna Robinson:Oh, it's just Maeve. Okay.

21:02Bill Simmons:Big dinner scene. And it's like, Tom is a collector.

21:05Joanna Robinson:I'm going to try to apply. Maybe Aaliyah's there. I'm going to try to apply some newly earned knowledge. Are you just applying Sopranos rules? Because don't Sopranos seasons end with like a big family meal? Isn't that like a classic surprise?

21:17Bill Simmons:I was just trying to figure out, like the end game of this is Tom, who we see in the first episode is just like a broken alcoholic, right? Like just so, he's drunker than anyone's ever been on HBO. And by the end of this, he is now a little bit more sober and he's added a person to the family, Simpleton Sam.

21:38Joanna Robinson:Yeah, Emily's calling him out. Simpleton Sam.

21:40Bill Simmons:Simpleton Sam's now at the table.

21:42Joanna Robinson:A traumatized child.

21:45Bill Simmons:And it's just, he's got his family back.

21:49Joanna Robinson:Something that Rob and I were saying last week is that we felt a little uncomfortable with this idea that he hasn't gone to visit his son.

21:57Bill Simmons:How about that that plot was abandoned?

21:59Joanna Robinson:But he's just brought a replacement son into the home. Right. We were like, that feels a little dicey to us. Yeah, tough one.

22:06Bill Simmons:Well, I mean, you predicted this, I think, in the first episode that Sam was going to end up at Tom's house.

22:12Joanna Robinson:No, one of our listeners did. Somebody predicted this. And he pointed out that, you know, they both like birds.

22:17Bill Simmons:Right.

22:17Joanna Robinson:How do you feel about Ruffalo's chicken impression? It was bad. It was pretty good.

22:22Bill Simmons:I thought it was a strong episode for him.

22:24Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

22:24Bill Simmons:Well, he has a bed for Sam because his other adopted son is still in the slammer.

22:29Joanna Robinson:I don't think it's abandoned. That's got to be finale stuff, right?

22:33Bill Simmons:Well, why would they spend all that time? With the hearing, are you going to go, we're going to do all that for three episodes and then not have the hearing?

22:40Joanna Robinson:I have to, I'm going to look down the camera as I say this. we now know exactly when this show is taking place. This has been an ongoing debate with us, but our listeners have had it with our debate about this. The trial date is June 12th. So we are in early June. I have some questions about tomatoes being ready in early June. That's not how gardens work, but that's okay. We're in early June. Probably getting pretty hot there

23:05Bill Simmons:in Pennsylvania at that point.

23:06Joanna Robinson:Emily's still in school, so school's not out for summer yet.

23:09Bill Simmons:Phillies are playing. Yeah. The Sixers aren't in the finals because they never are.

23:12Joanna Robinson:So do you think we're getting the hearing in the finale?

23:18Bill Simmons:If we don't, what was the point of the first three episodes? You have to.

23:21Joanna Robinson:Tom says in this episode, when he's talking about his sins, things he feels guilty about or whatever, he admits, like, my son's been in prison all. Yeah. And I haven't seen him at all.

23:33Bill Simmons:Well, I mean, what's left? So the plots that are left, Martha Plimpton's character, she's going to be in that. I think we're probably done with her. and she's not the mole and she's just going to be recovering in hospital. So she's over there. Yeah.

23:47Joanna Robinson:She's working on her fiber intake.

23:48Bill Simmons:We have Perry and Jason found the fentanyl bag at the end of this episode but got rope-a-doped because it wasn't fentanyl. Yeah. It was just a bag of bullshit. Maeve got the bag of a lot of money thanks to Scary Face Ray.

24:03Joanna Robinson:And Shelly.

24:05Bill Simmons:No thanks to Ray. Thanks to Shelly. Well, and Battled Wife Shelly.

24:08Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

24:09Bill Simmons:Who turned out, she said, I'm a good person. Yeah.

24:12Joanna Robinson:And she came through.

24:13Bill Simmons:So then scaling back to the previous episode.

24:16Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

24:17Bill Simmons:So it started out, this is episode five. Robbie goes to see, he's going to go like kill scary face Ray. He's like, where's Ray? Yeah. Then has that interaction and he just leaves and it seems like they're done and we're never going to see her again. So he obviously went back. He goes to see Freddy Frias later in the episode. And that's kind of been a scene that ended abruptly.

24:39Joanna Robinson:Well, it's a setup.

24:40Bill Simmons:it's a setup scene and we think freddy freus is giving him to the biker gang but now i'm actually

24:48Joanna Robinson:thinking it was a long con right partially a long con like i don't think i don't think freddy freus

24:54Bill Simmons:is in on it oh interesting because i think he is i think they didn't show us the end of that scene

24:59Joanna Robinson:with shelly or he goes back and robbie makes a deal with shelly but he goes to freddy freus knowing that freddy's gonna tip off jason and he's like this is where i'll meet you i'll meet you at this cabin. And he has this plan this whole time to draw Jason out there and to kill Jason, that that's what he wants to do. Right?

25:18Bill Simmons:So you think Freddy Frias...

25:20Joanna Robinson:It's just a go-in-between.

25:21Bill Simmons:Where did he get all the money for the fentanyl then?

25:24Joanna Robinson:Shelly sold it.

25:25Bill Simmons:But to who?

25:26Joanna Robinson:To the contact that Ray had. Ray had a guy they were going to sell that had nothing to do with Freddy Frias.

25:32Bill Simmons:So you don't think she just sold it to Freddy Frias and this is Freddy Frias' revenge against the biker gang?

25:37Joanna Robinson:Because Freddy Frias hated the biker game, but I think -

25:39Bill Simmons:So that's why I thought that was why he did that.

25:42Joanna Robinson:I think it's just that Tom knew that Freddy would tip him off to the dark hearts.

25:47Bill Simmons:Or did Tom go, you hate the dark hearts. I hate the dark hearts. What if we did this?

25:55Joanna Robinson:Okay. That's a vast conspiracy. I'm willing to consider it. Knowing this, I keep calling him Tom because of the actor. Robbie, like knowing that Robbie had this plan this whole time, re-watching episode five. when he's like asking Tom about an afterlife and all these other stuff. Like he's going to die. Like he knows he's going to die.

26:15Bill Simmons:He figures there's going to be a shootout and he might lose.

26:17Joanna Robinson:He wants to kill Jason and he doesn't care if he dies doing it. And he has no plan after this and he's left the money behind for Maeve.

26:24Bill Simmons:So we're going to find out what happened. Who gave them the money? Was Freddie either involved? Right. Is Freddie trying to double cross the dark cards? How vast, how many counties

26:35Joanna Robinson:in Pennsylvania are involved in this.

26:38Bill Simmons:And then the other thing that's still up in the air, well, there's two things. One is Grasso. How are they going to solve that one? And then Perry murdering Jason's wife.

26:49Joanna Robinson:Aaron, where's Aaron? He just left her in the water. Is that the idea? That's what you heard Rob were saying last week. When I kill people in a quarry,

26:57Bill Simmons:I like to put a string and a rock on their legs to kind of keep them down toward the bottom. Yeah, I think that's a necessity.

27:03Joanna Robinson:Is it just one rock will do it or do you need multiple rocks?

27:05Bill Simmons:It's like you want a nice big 20-pound rock and maybe some rope. Maybe even a second rock just to make sure. Yeah.

27:10Joanna Robinson:I would double rock it.

27:12Bill Simmons:He just seemed like he's like, I'm good. That's what's going to happen here. I just left her there. Yeah. She's going to float around for a while.

27:17Joanna Robinson:Yeah. It doesn't seem – this is the thing that's actually really bothering me about a task. His name's Perry.

27:24Bill Simmons:Yeah.

27:25Joanna Robinson:His nickname is Purr. And that really bothers me because Purr is a nickname for Percy. Makes sense. but his name is Perry and they call him Purr. It's very confusing to me.

27:37Bill Simmons:That is weird, but you can't call him Pear because then he sounds like a fruit. Yeah. Yeah. I would just name that character. How about just Perry?

27:43Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

27:43Bill Simmons:Or P.

27:44Joanna Robinson:P. Big P. Anyway, Big P used zero rocks to weigh Aaron down the quarry. If he did, we didn't see it. So I don't know what's happening.

27:53Bill Simmons:I'm guessing as an experienced murderer, he probably was like, okay.

27:56Joanna Robinson:I hope so.

27:57Bill Simmons:Let me drag this body over.

27:58Joanna Robinson:So what happens if Jason finds out that Perry killed Aaron?

28:01Bill Simmons:Well, I think the three predictions we can safely make here are Perry and Jason are going to have, Jason's going to put two and two together and they're going to fight to death or something will happen. So there's one. Two is Tom and Grasso are going to have to have a moment, right? And then the third one I think we can safely predict is the hearing will happen at some point in the show.

28:24Joanna Robinson:It would be very weird if it didn't. Is Maeve okay? That's my main concern. she has a bag of money that the motorcycle club wants. So that would be the fourth prediction then.

28:37Bill Simmons:Well, when did they put two and two together and realize that Maeve might have profited from all of this?

28:43Joanna Robinson:I don't know. Does she start spending it? Or does she hide it?

28:47Bill Simmons:Maeve buys a Lambo? Yeah, yeah.

28:49Joanna Robinson:Maeve rolls up in a Lambo.

28:51Bill Simmons:My guess is she's been impressed by her smarts for most of this. Although her biggest fail was probably the, let me go. The drop off plan. Pay phone, call, I'll leave the kid in the car. This will all work.

29:06Joanna Robinson:Not our best move.

29:07Bill Simmons:But my guess is she's going to get out of Dodge now with that money. Take the two kids and they're going to go to probably Canada.

29:12Joanna Robinson:I'm just worried about Maeve perpetually. Because it's like with the Lizzie thing. We were worried all season that Lizzie was going to freeze. Yeah. And then she didn't. She did and she didn't. And then she died anyway. Yeah. So we're like, I've been so worried about Maeve. You were like, I'm worried Maeve's going to go to jail. So then there's this idea, okay, she's home. She's safe. She's with the kids. Robbie thinks he's done something good for her by providing for her with his bag of money. But that's just putting a target on her back, right?

29:43Bill Simmons:As soon as they put three and three together. Right. Yeah.

29:46Joanna Robinson:Where would the money be?

29:47Bill Simmons:Yeah. So you think she'll be the one that there's the shotgun in the woods with the crows scattering up?

29:52Joanna Robinson:You still want that shot. So it's not going to be Sam. You still want that moment?

29:54Bill Simmons:Yeah, I still thought we were getting that moment.

29:55Joanna Robinson:Can I go back to like the, how do you feel in stories in film or television when they leave things out? And then, so like with Robbie's plan with Shelly, they left it out. We didn't get to see it. So then it's like a little twist, a little turn.

30:13Bill Simmons:Yeah, because I only like it if in retrospect, you're like, oh, that's why he left, but they left it open-ended. That's why he went to sit down with Freddie Frias, but we never heard the combo. Right. The coups were all there. Yeah. That's why I think Freddie Frias is in on this.

30:29Joanna Robinson:Okay. Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

30:31Bill Simmons:Because I think they would have showed the combo otherwise.

30:34Joanna Robinson:That's a fair point. That's a great point.

30:35Bill Simmons:So it's like, how about if we fuck over the Spiker gang in the best possible way? We'll make it seem like you're turning me in, but you're not.

30:42Joanna Robinson:I have a bag of some money for you, but other money is going to make.

30:46Bill Simmons:The case against that theory is, would Freddy Frias have had people in the woods to try to kill these guys?

30:52Joanna Robinson:I think Freddy Frias wants all the money. Yeah. You know what I mean? He wouldn't settle for some of the money.

30:56Bill Simmons:Like, he's going to have all these people in a good spot. Could you just take all of them out?

31:00Joanna Robinson:I think I agree with you that I don't mind them not showing us, like, certain things or ends of scenes or something like that if the payoff is pretty soon. Like, it's the next episode we find out what actually happened. Yeah. It's when it happens, you know, a whole season later. And you're like, I don't remember. What are you talking about? Well, I didn't remember.

31:20Bill Simmons:I mean, we've watched six of these. I didn't remember that we saw Gabriel Sabar in episode one or what that scene was, even though we've watched all these episodes carefully. It wasn't episode one.

31:31Joanna Robinson:Or episode two. I think it was episode four. When they're going to the park and that whole team that's with them in the park, he's running that team. That's like Grasso's department. Right. Okay. I remember that now. Yeah.

31:45Bill Simmons:I do have one more nitpick retroactive after watching episode six. Okay. So they leave with all the drugs in episode one, big shootout. Yeah. And they're stuck with this kid.

31:56Joanna Robinson:Simpleton Sammy, I believe you're calling.

31:58Bill Simmons:Simpleton Sammy. Why not go to this room?

32:01Joanna Robinson:TV's cutest child.

32:02Bill Simmons:Why not go to the remote cabin with Sam? great question why not use the remote cabin

32:07Joanna Robinson:great question

32:08Bill Simmons:it's right there nobody knows you have it

32:10Joanna Robinson:well then you don't have Maeve as a babysitter built in babysitter

32:13Bill Simmons:but do I even want Maeve to know I have this kid or that I did all this stuff

32:18Joanna Robinson:I did ask Brad about and people continue for that but like Tom being a pretty bad cop and Robbie being a pretty bad criminal and what's interesting about that to him do you know what I mean because people have been complaining about that They're like, Robbie's not very good at this. And I actually think that's kind of interesting. Kind of how you become a criminal. Yeah.

32:39Bill Simmons:You know, that's how I feel about Grasso. He's just a guy. Well, the thing with Sam, if you're doing this over again from Robbie's standpoint.

32:47Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

32:48Bill Simmons:Sam, not exactly a rocket scientist. Maybe just drop him off at the mall and he's not going to be like, here's what my two kidnappers look like. The more we learn about Sam, he's probably not going to divulge a lot of info about the people that briefly took him after his parents were murdered. Yeah.

33:02Joanna Robinson:Yeah, Simpleton Sammy. That was the mistake. He might have been able to describe like an animal he saw, right?

33:10Bill Simmons:True. Yeah. They had a house with three chickens.

33:13Joanna Robinson:One was named Gertie. Can I ask?

33:15Bill Simmons:Yeah.

33:16Joanna Robinson:As like a lover of action movies.

33:18Bill Simmons:Yeah.

33:21Joanna Robinson:When Tom Pelfrey as Robbie Pendergrass says in the forest, is this what you came for? Like, what did that do for you?

33:30Bill Simmons:And through the bag? Yeah. It's great. I mean, they're playing some karaoke with some of the action stuff. I love it.

33:35Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

33:36Bill Simmons:Yeah. I like that. I really, I thought the bridge and whatever symbolism you want to take out of that and people go in different directions and then things finally ending on the bridge again. I liked all that stuff. Like the, you know, I normally don't like, normally I'll think stuff like that's corny, but I actually thought it worked with this.

33:55Joanna Robinson:With the like crossing the bridge and the choices you make. It's like the symbolism of, oh, there are two sides.

34:00Bill Simmons:and you're going to go left to right. And oh, now we're together on our bridge of choices. Like I did enjoy all that.

34:07Joanna Robinson:Sunday Night HBO has brought out the poet you. Sunday Night HBO is back. I love it. I love it. I know they're not your favorite plot line, but we didn't talk about Sarah and Emily at all. Do you want to like mention they're reconciled? They're sticking up for each other?

34:20Bill Simmons:Sure.

34:21Joanna Robinson:Okay. Are you on tenterhooks to find out if Emily's actually going to go to that magic show with that kid she scoops worries with.

34:32Bill Simmons:That was a get up and go to the bathroom scene.

34:33Joanna Robinson:Okay, you left during the close-up magic, guys.

34:36Bill Simmons:Here's the thing with TV shows.

34:38Joanna Robinson:He wears a jaunty vest though. It's not for you? No. Okay.

34:41Bill Simmons:It's like, yes, I got my date. Cool. Here's the thing with these.

34:45Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

34:46Bill Simmons:Albums have this too. Sometimes every hit -

34:48Joanna Robinson:Skippable track?

34:49Bill Simmons:Yeah, sometimes every song on the album can't be great. TV shows, you still haven't watched The Sopranos, but some people love the Dr. Melfi scenes. I personally do not like them.

35:00Joanna Robinson:I have watched some Sopranos. Yeah. Let's be so clear about that.

35:05Bill Simmons:Trying to think. Thrones.

35:06Joanna Robinson:Oh, yeah. You're like, oh, God, we're back in Meereen. I don't care. Like, what is Daenerys doing again this week? I don't know.

35:12Bill Simmons:It's tough to bat a thousand with plots.

35:14Joanna Robinson:Sure.

35:15Bill Simmons:And I get why they have to have the -

35:18Joanna Robinson:You didn't like when Sarah is interrogating him in the kitchen and she's like, what is this kid? What's happening here? and he's like, he's like, now does anyone want a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? I didn't mind that part. That wasn't a good like dad moment for you.

35:30Bill Simmons:So I don't know, maybe it's just because of what my family situation is like, but I just feel like there would be like slightly more humor. I get it that there's completely humorless houses, but I feel like somebody needed to be sarcastic in this house and it's neither daughter. And then Ethan's obviously not a barrel of laughs.

35:50Joanna Robinson:Maybe Ethan's really fun when he's well-medicated.

35:51Bill Simmons:Maybe the mom was the funny one. I don't know.

35:53Joanna Robinson:Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's keeping it all together. But it'd be like, dad, dude.

35:55Bill Simmons:It's like you went to eBay and found another kid. Like, there just should have been some joke.

35:59Joanna Robinson:Well, now Sammy's here to really bring up the level of the house.

36:02Bill Simmons:Sammy's just excited he has a bed.

36:04Joanna Robinson:He's like, is that other kid going to come and take the bed for me? Poor Sammy. Predictions.

36:10Bill Simmons:Is Grasso alive at the end of this season? How can he be if he's responsible for Lizzie's death? is he dead by his own hands or by somebody else is he

36:22Joanna Robinson:well here's my question is he dead because he does something heroic or is he dead because he just is deeper and deeper into the plot you know what I mean is there a chance for like redemption for him he's killed

36:34Bill Simmons:he's killed saving somebody kills himself yeah those are our three things left

36:39Joanna Robinson:and do a flock of birds go up in the forest for any of those moments

36:43Bill Simmons:no flock of birds for him

36:44Joanna Robinson:wow no flock of birds for grass

36:47Bill Simmons:Grasso is gets away and that's season two.

36:49Joanna Robinson:Season two, the Grasso season?

36:51Bill Simmons:Grasso on the run? My sources have told me season two of Task is in play in a real way.

36:58Joanna Robinson:Stay tuned. We did ask Brad about it. Okay. Yeah.

37:02Bill Simmons:So that season two could be built around Grasso or we could just be in a completely different task in some part of Pennsylvania. Right. New season, new task. Because Inglesby has a Pennsylvania hard-on.

37:12Joanna Robinson:Yeah. We can't leave the waterized territory.

37:15Bill Simmons:To the Lehigh Lafayette territory, like Patriot League murder.

37:18Joanna Robinson:Do you think he's actually going to pay CR this time to co-write season two?

37:22Bill Simmons:I mean, it was already insulting that he didn't involve him as a consultant for the last one.

37:26Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

37:27Bill Simmons:But if it was a fictional show, he should have had the 76ers in the finals. This would have been their only chance.

37:33Joanna Robinson:Just a dream. A fictional dream.

37:35Bill Simmons:Yeah. I love that. Joel Embiid. He's played every game this season. But America, we could have an announcer. Yeah.

37:40Joanna Robinson:Do you wish Robber hair for this joke?

37:42Bill Simmons:Yes.

37:43Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

37:49Joanna Robinson:predictions um i'm worried about mave i'm hopeful for grasso redemption is there a chance grasso lives and mave dies since we started this season with you predicting a child getting shot in the woods i feel like everything's on the table mave could die still might not be out of that one i want to ask you okay you like the symbolism of the bridge i know i know we're wrapping up we're not going to take much longer. And the trees and the leaves. What did you think of the final shot of Robbie in the water? Robbie's long dead and then Maeve gets the bag of money and then Robbie's in the water.

38:22Bill Simmons:The rare flashback of something that I thought really worked.

38:26Joanna Robinson:You're like, give me more of that quarry.

38:27Bill Simmons:It was like, Robbie finally got a win. It was like this guy had a lot of wins in life.

38:31Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

38:35Joanna Robinson:What are your predictions?

38:40Bill Simmons:I think a lot of it depends on whether TAS season two is the same crew or different people.

38:46Joanna Robinson:Because is Ruffalo safe?

38:49Bill Simmons:I think Ruffalo's safe because you need him for season two in some form if he wants to be in there.

38:54Joanna Robinson:If you're going to do TAS season two, you have to have Ruffalo anchoring it is what you're saying.

38:58Bill Simmons:I think so. But could season two be Grasso on the loose? It just becomes a different show. Now we're doing The Fugitive basically. So I think Grasso dies would be my take.

39:08Joanna Robinson:Bill T.B. Clara would not say no. So if Grasso's Yeah, Grasso's a fugitive.

39:12Bill Simmons:Yeah. Well, we talked about this -

39:14Joanna Robinson:Tom just being like, I don't care. I know. You know?

39:16Bill Simmons:We talked about this in another episode. I think that guy's been excellent.

39:20Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Fabian Frankel, yeah. And in terms of people from England

39:24Bill Simmons:impersonating American actors with accents, it's about as good as it gets.

39:27Joanna Robinson:He should be cast in every East Coast crime stuff going forward.

39:31Bill Simmons:I can't wait to see him on a Netflix rom-com in a year that my wife's watching that's terrible, but she loves it.

39:38Joanna Robinson:Has this happened to all the actors you like?

39:40Bill Simmons:No, it would just be like him with, I don't know, Millie Bobby Brown or somebody who's like, whoa, she's in a rom-com now? Yeah. And we're just like, ah, Grasso needed the paycheck.

39:51Joanna Robinson:We got to expand. You got to expand the portfolio. Yeah. You know what I mean? Here's what I want to say about Mark Ruffalo in this show.

39:57Bill Simmons:Yeah.

39:58Joanna Robinson:I think he needs something really big in the finale. Because I think to a certain degree, Tom Pelfrey has kind of stolen the show. Ruffalo's the star. He's the big star of the show.

40:07Bill Simmons:You won his Emmy Thunderback.

40:09Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Right? Pelfrey's doing a lot of work Could that be a hearing scene? Fabian Frankel's doing a lot of work We talked about Alison Oliver and stuff like that Yeah, I mean something We need to give Ruffalo

40:17Bill Simmons:Monologue to the judge in the hearing

40:19Joanna Robinson:Ruffalo big moment in the finale He needs it

40:23Bill Simmons:Like Paul Newman at the end of the verdict Yes Kind of big speech

40:26Joanna Robinson:Yes

40:27Bill Simmons:Where so Like one of his daughters puts their arm around him after and be like Dad, great job

40:32Joanna Robinson:And you're like I love these daughter scenes They're my favorite

40:35Bill Simmons:And then they all make food

40:36Joanna Robinson:They all have peanut butter and jelly sandwiches And Sammy is fine

40:39Bill Simmons:Same goes outside to look at the chickens in there. That's it. Yeah, I don't know what, we have an hour left and I don't know where it goes. But I assume -

40:50Joanna Robinson:We've got a mole, like a rat hunt. Like we know, I really loved that the exchange between Tom and Grasso, which I thought was all timer. Like I thought it was so good. And that's the thing is like, Ruffalo -

41:00Bill Simmons:We should have talked about that. That was such a good scene.

41:02Joanna Robinson:Ruffalo has been the best at these like, like he was so good in that car scene with Tom Pelfrey. So good at this kitchen table scene. with Fabian Frankel and like talking about confession, talking about Tom, Tom doing what Tom does best, right? Like Grasso's like, oh, you're good, Tom. Like I see what you're doing. I see what you're trying for here. Right. But him saying like, there's a difference between what you believe and what you can prove. And this - That's the thing between

41:31Bill Simmons:believing something and proving it.

41:33Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

41:34Bill Simmons:It's such a good line. I'm coming for you, Grasso.

41:38Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Really good stuff. I'm coming for you, Grasso, up with, is this what you came for? It's like killer stuff. But all season, Grasso has been in this crisis of faith. He grew up. He didn't believe. Asking Tom why he believes, essentially.

41:56Bill Simmons:Why didn't his DJ career work out? Right. Yeah.

41:59Joanna Robinson:If there's a God, wouldn't I be the most famous DJ in Ibiza? Something like that. But he's cradling Lizzie, and later he's like, she was gone. There was something about her that was gone. And he's discovered what a soul is. You know what I mean? He's in this real, cool crisis of faith. Yeah, purgatory. You want Grasso to have a redemption. He's going to die. You want Grasso season two.

42:22Bill Simmons:I'm glad you reminded me to bring up that scene because I meant to and I forgot. I thought that was a great cat and mouse scene. Yeah, really good. I also liked when Grasso slowly figured out what was going on. He's like, can I have a cigarette, Tom? Oh, no, this is my house. I guess I can have one. But it was just clear. is like, oh shit, this guy's on to me. Now, why didn't Tom just bring the cops over and arrest Grasso?

42:45Joanna Robinson:He's not supposed to be on the case at all anymore.

42:48Bill Simmons:I know, but it's...

42:49Joanna Robinson:They took his gun. He's supposed to be at home. He's not even supposed to be there. But the guy clearly

42:54Bill Simmons:broke the law. Did he need more evidence?

42:57Joanna Robinson:Yeah, they have to prove it. They don't have proof on him yet. So that's what the finale is about, is getting proof on Grasso, right?

43:03Bill Simmons:Now we're in Wire season two.

43:05Joanna Robinson:Love that for us. I also think that But before Tom does the kitchen table scene, when they're still in the hospital, before he knows that Grasso, before Martha Plimpton tells him about the file, which would have been nice to know before they went into the woods. Why did they go into the woods with him when she knew that? I don't know. Great point. But when Tom – Are you sure she knew before? well she said we have a problem and like the guy who works in her office you know what I mean like she was sort of looking into it so I don't know if she didn't have that file before they went but when they're in the hospital before Tom knows that Grasso has his file on him he gives them the old Robin Williams Good Will Hunting it's not your fault like you know he gives them like a full it's not your fault yeah when Grasso fucking knows it's his fault.

44:00Joanna Robinson:And to have that at the beginning of the episode and then the kitchen table of like, I'm coming for you, Grasso. This is an incredible episode of television.

44:09Bill Simmons:Any stuff from the readers before we go that jumped out?

44:13Joanna Robinson:I think we did it.

44:14Bill Simmons:Do people feel like this is in the top shelf HBO limited series Pantheon or like one level below?

44:21Joanna Robinson:I think they have an opportunity in the finale to bump it up into mayor. It's not quite mayor territory. It hasn't become, I think, everyone's watching it, everyone's talking about it yet. So the finale is a banger. I think it has the opportunity to get there. But don't you have that sense? It's not where White Lotus was early this year. I think you made the point earlier.

44:40Bill Simmons:When they released it, which I know they've had success other times in the calendar, but there's just a lot going on in September.

44:46Joanna Robinson:Yeah.

44:47Bill Simmons:From a sports standpoint, from an everything standpoint, September, October, people are going back to school. Like, I think this would have crushed them in the summer, like in a crazy way.

44:58Joanna Robinson:Yeah, all that Corey action.

44:59Bill Simmons:And they just don't think of the summer this way for shows like this.

45:04Joanna Robinson:And I think they feel like they need something to stay in the conversation when there's so much conversation about everything. And that's a very, you know, that's, you and I are old enough to remember when September and October is when all the shows came out.

45:16Bill Simmons:The famous Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, same time against football. in like 2013. That was the all-timer.

45:26Joanna Robinson:Oh, and Mad Men.

45:28Bill Simmons:I think there might have been three. Were there three at the same time one time?

45:31Joanna Robinson:I swear they overracked. Mad Men was definitely on at the same time as Thrones at one season. We had at least two going constantly.

45:38Bill Simmons:Yeah.

45:39Joanna Robinson:That was really tough. It was great, but it was horrible if you were covering it.

45:42Bill Simmons:It wasn't horrible if you were running a content site.

45:44Joanna Robinson:No, I mean, someone who was trying to cover it. Yeah.

45:47Bill Simmons:It was tough. Do you think I felt bad for the people covering it? We needed the content. No, those were the glory days.

45:55Joanna Robinson:Yeah, great stuff. But I think that Task has an opportunity if the finale is a banger to like jump up into that level. But I don't think it's quite there yet. Yeah. Would you agree?

46:05Bill Simmons:I think it has a chance. I really do. It's all about how you land the plane.

46:09Joanna Robinson:And I think it'll have long legs. I think that's good word of mouth. I think people who watched it will tell people to watch it. I don't think anyone's walking out of the season saying don't bother with Task. I think it's going to like, people are going to catch on. And I think it's going to be one of those things where season one is a little quieter and then a lot of people have caught up for season two. That seems likely to me.

46:28Bill Simmons:That's the HBO sweet spot. That's what they love the most.

46:30Joanna Robinson:Gotta love it.

46:31Bill Simmons:All right, we're gonna take a break and then we're gonna throw to your interview with Brad.

46:36Joanna Robinson:So the episode six title, Out Behind Ideas of Wrongdoing and Rightdoing, There is a River, is a tweak on a line from a Rumi poem. So I was wondering sort of what about that Rumi poem spoke to you and why are we tweaking it from field to river inside of this title? Yeah, that's a good question, Joanna. I think what it always, I think what always resonated about the quote was this idea of right and wrong and go past that and look deeper. And that to me was so much about the show. That really was what excited me about the show was to dive into a group of characters that we aren't able to put in a box that we're constantly trying to have an audience accept the inconsistencies, you know, within each of these characters.

47:28And the quote spoke to that. I think it was, you know, I always read it as asking the reader, you know, to look past that, you know, to go deeper. And I think if you look at the show and all the characters, we're trying to do that with each of them. We always said on set, you know, we don't have to understand, or we don't have to like all the decisions they make, but we have to understand them. And that's what we were always trying to do with each of the characters in the show was understand the why. And I think, you know, and listen, it helps to work with such incredible actors. These guys were just amazing guys and girls.

48:03It was such a wonderful cast. So they made a big difference in achieving that.

48:07Joanna Robinson:Throughout the season, we've had this great motif of, of the quarry and the anointing of the water on the, on the shoulders. And we get this final shot of this episode of Robbie having pulled one over, at least for now, on Jason, but happy and light in the water. Is this an afterlife? Is this the moment Robbie thought of this idea? Is this just you wanted to show him in a better time and a place? What do you think? Yeah, I think, you know, it was so, you know what? It wasn't in the script, Joanna. It was not in the script. It ended, actually the script ended with, it ended with Maeve. And it's one of those things, like I had a very distinct experience with this in Mare, with Evan Peters' character, where I felt like I, in a way I underestimated the impact of that character.

49:01I didn't, in the script, he wasn't that good. I'll be honest. Evan elevated that character in ways I couldn't imagine. And I remember getting to the fifth episode of Mare and being like, oh, my God, we're really in trouble because people love him so much. And I mean, I'm not just saying that it wasn't that he was fine in the script. I thought he was a good character, but I think Evan elevated him. And I felt so I had the same reaction to Pelfrey in their show where I liked Robbie as a character in the scripts. But when I was editing the show, his performance just was so incredible. And I remember getting to the end of the episode and going, God, we have to give Robbie a moment of triumph here.

49:48He's owed that moment. And I went back into the dailies and Jeremiah had shot a couple jumps into the quarry. And there was this beautiful moment that we found by just going back into the dailies where, you know, I don't even know what Tom was reacting to in the moment, but he was laughing. And then the camera sort of in a just a moment of luck, Joanne, it went underwater and captured his legs swimming in a way. And when I saw that, I just felt like it served a few purposes. One is it allowed the audience to see him again and to give him this win we so desperately want him to have. And also, I think the quarry to me was always his version of heaven.

50:29Again, he's not a believer in the traditional sense of, you know, where I'm going in this life. He says it in the back of the car with Tom. I never, you know, I forget the exact quote, but he mentions it when he's talking to Tom in the car. And so to me, the quarry represented his heaven here. And as soon as we put it in, at first I was like, I don't know if it's going to work. And then we watched it a few times, Joanne. I felt like I can't imagine the episode without it now in a funny way, you know?

50:56Joanna Robinson:I did have a question about Pelfrey because I find him so watchable in everything. This is a really great marriage of material and actor, but he always has this thing that is just completely compulsively watchable and empathetic and odd, like offbeat a lot of his choices. What do you think is at the heart of why Tom Pelfrey connects with audiences the way that he does? You know, I don't know what it is. I guess I can speak to why I cast him as Robbie, though. And I think it was an accessibility. I think I've told this story before. I was on set of another project, and we would get casting tapes sent to us.

51:43and Tom was one of the very I mean really early in the process maybe the first like two or three of the tapes we got from A.V. Kaufman our casting director and he put himself on tape and it was the it was the scene in episode one where he's talking to Cliff about he wants someone in his life and his wife is left and I got about half a minute into the audition and he laughed and he has an iconic laugh Tom he has an incredible laugh And I heard him laugh and I paused the audition tape. And I distinctly remember this and thinking, wow, this guy has something. And then my phone rang and it was Jeremiah, our director.

52:21He's like, dude, I've just watched this guy's tape. Perfect. And it was Tom Pelfrey he was talking about. And I went back and finished the audition and we didn't read anybody after that. And I think it was a mixture of a couple things. It was, I felt Robbie's childlike sense of wonder in Tom. He has this incredible laugh. He does something incredible with his eyes, especially in the fifth episode. There's a lot of amazing eye acting, I would call it. There's a sadness, a heartbreak, a glow, a glean. He has all these different shades of acting in his eyes. But I felt like he possessed the childlike wonder of Robbie.

53:01And I also felt like there was a he has the physicality that I wanted Robbie to have that that, you know, that you could believe him in bed with his kids and you could believe him in a drug house smashing his pistol against someone's nose. And I felt like we had to believe both those sides completely. And and Tom is just he's just so accessible. And also, I think in this case, Joanna, he grew up around here. I think Tom, and he'll tell you this, I think he knew Robbie's. I think he really understood this world, the friendship between him and Cliff, the banter between guys, the sports talk. He really understands this world.

53:44And I think he connected with it on that level too.

53:46Joanna Robinson:I was reading a different interview where you were talking about, you're like, you know, Tom's not a very good cop. Like he's not a very good cop. And you know, Robbie's not a very good No. Robber, not a very good criminal. No. What is more interesting to you about a story of a not very good cop and a not very good criminal sort of barreling towards each other? Yeah, I mean, I think we really leaned into that. I think that, you know, that was something we wanted to wrap our arms around. Because I felt like we had seen, and we always reference Heat as a structural sort of as a paradigm, you know, because it was a collision course.

54:21But if you look at Heat, it was a very high end detective and a high line robbery crew. And I felt like or I feel like I'm I'm not I'm not that smart of a writer when it comes to characters at the top of their game. I feel like my stronger abilities as a writer are to lean into the flaws and the weaknesses and the vulnerabilities of characters. And also, I like to tap into that type of character. And I just find it more interesting. I found it to be more sympathetic that Robbie was trying to be something he really wasn't, and Tom was trying to be something he wasn't. And I felt that Tom had lived a life of service as a parish priest, and he felt that there was something that he could connect that to the FBI, even though it was wildly different.

55:22And Robbie was driven by vengeance, but he didn't quite know how to be a criminal. He's quite, he's strong. He has the physicality. He has the team, but he's not that smart. And I wanted to lean into that. I felt like we wanted them to make mistakes and miss clues because I, you know, I would always say to Ruffalo on set, you're not a guy that's good with a gun. You're not going to see the clues other people miss. What is interesting to me about your character is that you're approaching the job with a lot of compassion and empathy. And for Pelfrey, it's not that you're an amazing criminal, but it's that you're driven by a perhaps misguided love of your brother and a desire to help your children.

56:03And I don't know, as soon as we kind of wrapped our arms around that joint, it just felt way more interesting to me. And I loved how sloppy it was. And I love that they would make these mistakes that we wouldn't expect them to make. And I felt like in some way, all those little mistakes and errors and flaws and make them more real than if they were extremely perceptive and extremely smart about robbing houses. I felt like it actually, as I started to write it, all the flaws actually drew me closer, and I felt more connected to them as people.

56:40Joanna Robinson:I like that you invoked Heat. Heat is obviously one of the blueprints for this kind of story, and since we are huge Heat fans here at The Ringer, from episode one, we were like, okay, here's a cop and here's a criminal. They're on a collision course. So when are we getting our diner scene? Like when are we getting this diner scene? And what episode is it going to be? What is it going to be like? You know, sort of thing. And we get it of a sort in this car. And something that one of my co-hosts brought up was this idea of like, how interesting to have them facing the same direction instead of like you know classically De Niro Pacino facing each other across the table you've got them both facing front in this car looking each other through the rearview mirror sort of thing was that an intentional way to sort of like let's take three steps away from that iconic thing so we can own it and make it our own thing yes yes exactly I think we knew we had to have that moment and just like the story demanded that moment.

57:46And, and I loved the idea of that scene. And, you know, again, we got that idea from heat where, where you're waiting that whole time. And then those two characters come together, but you're right. We go, okay, how do we take that idea and do something adjacent? How do we subvert it in some way? And in talking to Jeremiah about it, we'd love the idea of them being in a car and drive. And, and, and I always had the idea that, you know, that Robbie would, he'd be backed into a corner and he would have to kidnap Tom. And, and I just love the idea that, that, you know, and it's played so beautifully in the scene by both of them, but especially Mark in that he feels, you know, there's a sense, there's a sensation at his back for every second of the drive, like a bonfire at his back.

58:30He's feeling he's, and he's looking up and it, I just felt like it added, especially to Mark's character, a tension there of kind of not being able to face this guy, not knowing what he's doing back there, trying to check the mirrors and get a sense for it. And it just added a layer of tension that we felt was really great. And all the driving scenes were done practically, which I felt was such a beautiful choice that Jeremiah made early in the process. Because we've, I don't know, every time I watch a show and you see the green screen, I just I always feel it. And, and we made a real effort to shoot all the driving stuff.

59:10Practically, there's a couple shots in there where we just, you know, we were up against it with time and we had to, but not many. And that scene, especially we wanted to shoot on, on an open road. Um, and, uh, anyway, I, I just felt like as soon as we got in the car and as soon as I saw it on the monitor, it just felt right. And those guys brought it on the day. And it was, um, it's, It's one of the strongest sequences in the series, I think. I'm really happy with how that one ended up.

59:38Joanna Robinson:Yeah, and then I love the mirror of, you know, the back in the car together in this time, sort of Tom holding him. Yes, yes, yes. Ruffalo's, of course, bringing this very paternal, despite his own dysfunctions as a father, like this very paternal energy here, leader of a team, obviously a spiritual leader. But you've got these other sort of adoptive parent-child wild relationships going throughout. You've got Perry and Jason. And then in this episode, I thought the sort of Michael Dorsey, Anthony Grasso scene was so incredible. This idea that, you know, Grasso's like, did you tell him I was a good boy?

1:00:16Joanna Robinson:Right. And then the way that Michael sort of like shoved, you know, the way that they react is so, such a twisted sort of father-son dynamic. So I'm wondering if you could talk about sort of the way that echoes across sort of all the different corners of this story. And if Tom exists as if like, don't we wish Grasso had met Tom earlier in his life? Yes, I know. It's so true, Jo. I felt like Mare was, it was really a story about mothers. That's what I was really exploring there. And especially Mare as a mother. And I felt like this was a story about fathers, very much about fathers. And I feel like the Perry-Jason relationship is very, very much father-son.

1:01:00And we leaned into that and the same with Dorsey and Grasso. And I think it's, you know, I think it probably stems from, you know, me being a father and my own sort of anxieties and fears and always wondering what are the good things about myself that my kids are taking away and what are the bad things. And I love that you say that about Grasso because I always said to Fab, and he agreed, Grasso's a good guy. He was failed in his mind by some of the institutions. The church, I think he feels, has failed him. That's why he's constantly asking Tom. He wants Tom to convince him that God is there, that God is good, that God is able to redeem him in some way.

1:01:51He wants to be convinced of that. Unfortunately, he's asking the wrong guy at the wrong time, which is like, you know, this is the absolute wrong guy at the wrong time. There's nothing that Tom is going to say in this moment that's going to help you, Grasso. But I feel like it's that's why there is a father son relationship with Tom and Grasso is that he almost he wishes he had met someone like Tom earlier in his life. Instead, he's gotten so far down this path. And it's why I really love the scene. I won't spoil it, but there's a great scene in the seventh episode that I really love with him and his sister that I feel like is so moving about how he's kind of lost his way.

1:02:35But I think that's a relationship that echoes in all of the families. And this really is a story about families, the biker family, the Tass family, Tom's family, and Robbie's family. And one of the relationships that we always were trying to lean into was the father-son dynamic. And I think that's very, that's really perceptive to think that if he had met Tom instead of Michael Dorsey, he would be fine instead. And I think so much of this show is about the choices you make and how they reverberate and the ripple effect of these small choices. Because in my mind, what I always thought about Grasso is he did one thing and he thought, I'll do it this one time.

1:03:17Joanna Robinson:Right. And instead it was, well, now you did it one time. Like there's no getting out of it. And he's been able to maintain this house of cards, Joanna. And only when he comes onto this task force, it's like someone threw the windows open, all the winds coming in, and he's trying to defend it until he can't, you know? It's funny, I misremembered the rhythms of Mare because I went back and double-checked and my memory was that there was so much more of Mare after the revelation of whodunit inside of Mare. There is emotionally, you know, Julia Nicholson and Kate are just sort of like absolutely devastating us, but it's really only sort of like the back 20 of the finale.

1:03:58Joanna Robinson:here we've got Robbie has died and Lizzie has died sort of 20 minutes into this episode and so we've got the rest of this episode and then a whole finale of just sort of cleanup and and emotionally sorting through and all of a sudden because of Grasso's enormous guilt around like I had my eye on him because I'm a I cover House of the Dragon religiously so I love this actor so I I had my eye on Grasso this whole time, but he sort of emerges as this other sort of, you know, stealth surprise central figure of his moral conundrum, him saying in the kitchen, you know, she was a good person. Obviously you set up this ultimate pain of, of the flirtation romance with, with Lizzie and Grasso, but how are you envisioning the rhythms of this season, this sort of like early climax in one sense, And then not just a denouement, but like almost another story here at the end.

1:04:57A couple of things stood out to me that were structural, I would say, worries. But one was I just didn't know how long we could keep Sam in the house. And I felt like eventually the audience would get a little bored with it. Like, you know, he's playing with the chicken again. You know, I was worried, like, what are we doing with Sam? And so every time I would try to write a scene, I felt like we are really spinning our wheels. And instead of trying to jam that through, well, let's look at the note. What's the note behind the note? Well, maybe let's try to subvert expectations. Even with the Tom and Robbie scene, audiences probably would have expected that, as you said, to be the next episode or a little bit further into the story.

1:05:44So I was looking at ways to kind of subvert the expectations of the audience and do something unexpected. And it felt like and I also felt like, well, again, this was this was this was the discovery of Pelfrey's like he's so good. He's so captivating that you go, OK, wow, he's he's out of the show. Like, how do we sustain the story? and um and so it became clear that grasso storyline and tom's all his stuff in his personal life and the dark arts had to carry this had to carry us to the end of the show and um and so we really really leaned in into the grasso angle have a have a great conversation with him and tom at the end of episode six that kind of sets up a confrontation that's going to happen in episode seven or it's going to lead to something that has to be paid off at least.

1:06:38And, and I felt like, you know, I was also hopeful that Maeve Amelia is so moving as a character, the audience, she's so great. She's so great. And so I felt like, um, you know, I'm hopeful we have enough on the bone at the end of six where an audience wants to see what's going to happen to all these characters who remain. And, um, and I hope they feel satisfied with, you know, all the, all the arcs ending in a way. And I think it was tough to bring it all together, but I think we, I hope we did it in a way that feels hopeful.

1:07:10Joanna Robinson:Robbie not making it to me felt like a foregone conclusion. So I wasn't really sort of like wondering if he was going to get away or wondering, but I was just sort of like, but is Maeve going to be okay? Very much on my mind. It's so funny. My sisters are always, always texting me about Maeve and it's a testament to Amelia who's just absolutely incredible in the show and I think I was so moved by her character because I felt like she had had made all these things were happening to her she had done nothing wrong yeah she was constantly just trying to stay afloat and get herself out of these situations and um she's definitely a character that I I love and Amelia is just so wonderful um can I ask you this is a personal fascination of mine.

1:07:57You have so many UK actors in this cast.

1:08:01Joanna Robinson:And a question I had was, is it easier for a UK actor to access the Delco accent than it is for an American actor in a weird way? I think it's something to do with the training, Joanna. I don't know what it is. I mean, we had Kate who could snap into Delco and then immediately after a cut, it was back to the British. And the same with Amelia. I don't know if it's something with the training, but my experience is that they have an easier time accessing the accent. And I don't know if it's because they train in if they have to practice that in their training more, but it's amazing. And also, they're not scared by it.

1:08:44A lot of the American actors come and they go, listen, man, this is going to be really tough. You've got to get me early. It's a tough one, yeah, yeah. But they wrap their arms around it And they're up for the challenge, and they actually kind of, you know, they dig in. And Allison Oliver, who's Irish, you know, is amazing at it, too. I think she's got a great accent, and she's a trip.

1:09:05Joanna Robinson:I think she's the best. Okay, so I want to talk about Allison and Lizzie. Yes. One of our listeners actually sort of completely blew me away, I think, a week or two weeks ago by identifying Lizzie as the deer that Samuel was talking about earlier in the season. Oh, my gosh. You know? Oh, my gosh. She was like, you know, Lizzie's the one who freezes. Lizzie in Foot Chases is the one who's sort of like in an ungainly way sort of like leaping over things. That's so funny. Will she be – because we were like, is Sammy the deer or something like that? Will she be the deer? And then she got hit by a car.

1:09:34Joanna Robinson:I was like, I can't believe our listener called that like two weeks ago. But can you talk about that sort of motif that like Sammy talking about deer and looking both ways and then culminating in how it is that Lizzie sort of freezes and then doesn't inside of this showdown, which is what we were hoping for her, that she wouldn't freeze when her life is in danger. And then she gets hit by a car and dies. I know. I know. I know. Well, it's funny. I always, I love Sam. I loved him. I love that dialogue in the kitchen with Robbie because I think it kind of, it kind of, you know, it was very innocent and I believed a kid would say it.

1:10:11And it also spoke to what a sweet, innocent kid he is in the show. And, and, and, and, and yeah, the story I always felt was, it sort of spoke to so many characters and so, Hey, you know, who were kind of rushing into these things without a ton of thought, right? That was Robbie, you know, perhaps Lizzie at times too. so I never quite connected the deer to Lizzie I will say that I wish I was smarter than that but I think there's I love Lizzie as a character and I think Allison is just so dang good like I can't really like again a character that on the page was fine Joanna but Allison is just so good and you know one of the lines that always resonated with me and we fought to keep it in the show because we were up against time, but is when she's in the woods and they're hiding out in the stakeout.

1:11:11And she says, you know, I don't know what my one quality is in life. I don't know what it is. And that to me just, it really resonated because I know so many people, I'm lucky to have landed on something that I really love to do. But so many people I know are out there working jobs that they're not passionate about or don't know what it is they're passionate about. And I know so many people in life who are like that, that are looking to land on the one thing that gets them out of bed, that gets them passionate. And I just loved that line because it felt like she hadn't quite been able to find herself in life yet.

1:11:49She was on the path. And then as you said, she has this great moment of heroism in the woods where she's scared, scared, and then she gets the courage to do this one thing. And you feel like, oh, wow, she's going to take this and And she's going to carry it with her into this other part of life after this sequence. And then bang, everything that Grasso has set up, the chickens have come to roost in his life in a way. And it was a heartbreaker because Allison, again, another one of those things where you get to the edit and you go, oh, my God, people are going to hate us because Allison is so lovable as a character.

1:12:25Joanna Robinson:Can I tell you a weird side story? is that when I was covering Mayor of Easttown at a different outlet, and it was the kind of place where I was watching this, in this coverage I'm watching week to week because we're podcasting about it, we're theorizing, I don't want to get ahead. But in that other outlet, I watched all the screeners that were sent out. And I don't know if you remember this, but when Evan Peters' character died, the VFX weren't done. And so the blood spatter that hit the wall was not there. And so I was like, maybe he'll be okay. I was like, maybe that wasn't a fatal shot. And then I saw it for real.

1:13:03Joanna Robinson:I was like, oh, no. Okay. All right. All right. I see. I see. Oh, my God. I think people still hate me about that. And again, a testament to Evan, you know, for being so incredibly lovable and charming because he just, there's so many people who still come up to me about that scene. Well, I wanted to ask you because I think you undersell yourself, but I've heard you say that you don't think that you're really like a big picture plot guy, but you like these little interpersonal interaction scenes are your favorite sort of to write. And sometimes you sort of think of those and then think of the plot as a shell around it.

1:13:39Joanna Robinson:And of course, one of the reasons why Zabel's death means so much in Mary is that barroom scene that Emma used to do earlier. And you mentioned Tom's audition being this Robbie Cliff conversation scene, which was my favorite scene of the premiere. And so I was wondering if you had a favorite either small ball interaction or monologue of this season that you got to write that you were just like, this is it. This is the juice. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's so funny because all the scenes you just talked about, those are the ones that get me out of bed. I love those scenes. Like, you know, the Grasso and Lizzie at the bar and getting to pick the specific music and getting to to, you know, to find those moments where Allison, you know, her eyes light up and she like, I love those scenes.

1:14:29Those are the ones that, you know, I hate editing procedural stuff. I'm always like, God, get me through this. Just like move the ball down the field five yards. Let's just get the clue and go to the next scene. But I would say a couple come to mind, like you scenes that I'm really proud of in the show. The dinner table scene, I think it's an episode two. I thought we did a really, really good job with that scene. And that to me was good because it was moving the plot ahead in that, oh, now Tom is stuck between his two daughters. But also it, I felt like it revealed a lot of hurt, a lot of emotional baggage that everyone was doing.

1:15:10So it felt like if a scene was working on two levels emotionally and then also moving the plot um i i love alia you know confessing you know to shelly that she was abused and that and that she's stuck i love that scene um um i really like you know the bedroom scene where where allison's offering ky2 that one gets me like i thought that was really funny um obviously tom and robbie in the car was a really fun sequence um i i you know a scene i really like in the show is when um uh is when um tom comes home with sam and his daughters come in the kitchen they're like why is this kid here and he's like oh i didn't know what to do with them and does anyone want to like a a peanut butter and jelly sandwich you know i love to i love to find the moments of humor joanna because if you take an aerial view of the show it's right it's quite heavy and so i'm always you know most excited about the character beats.

1:16:11And honestly, those are the moments that get me the most excited. The procedural stuff I feel is I have to write it and we have great advisors who help with those scenes, but they don't get me very excited. I have to be honest. And I, it's all the little kind of weird character moments. Like I, like on Mayor, I loved writing Jean Smart, getting hit by the door and like all the goofiness that happened in the family. Those are my favorite scenes. But I really do feel like the plot is just an excuse where I get to spend time with all these characters that I really, really love. And I truly feel that way.

1:16:48And again, I know we have to have a plot and people have to click to the next episode, but I love those little moments most. I think they are what, as a writer, gets me excited about writing all those characters as moments of connection and humor, you know?

1:17:06Joanna Robinson:I could watch Lizzie and Anthony talk about his DJ career forever, you know? I could too, by the way. I hope there's a spinoff eventually where I get to write those scenes and because I love to write them and it's so funny. And anyway, and those two together are just so good, you know? Okay. So this is my last question. You mentioned spinoff. I've seen a million people ask you about sort of a task season two and your answer is sort of changing as the season goes on. You were like sort of, at the beginning you were like, let's see if people even like this. People obviously like it. But what I'm curious about, I've heard you talk about this place as like a place you're interested in.

1:17:47Joanna Robinson:And so I'm curious if, if you wanted to continue more tasks, is it the place that you're interested in following or is it sort of like, I would still want Ruffalo at the center of it or more character following? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think if we did another, it's a great question. I think if we did another task, it would, I think there would have to be some, you know, I would want to explore this, at least some of the same characters. I, you know, I would want to bring them back in a way and take them. I think a part of the fun of task. And again, I'm, this is probably a selfish thing here, Joanna, is like, I do think a part of the fun of task is that, again, I get to, I get to write another group of people on a task force.

1:18:32Like for me, that is the joy, like, wait, I get to create a couple of new characters to put on a task force and explore their dynamic over the course of a case. And so, but having said that, I do think that if we did another task, I would like to ground it in Mark's character in some way and bring him back. Because I do feel like, and I felt this way very much about Mayer, is like, I feel like there's an interesting, like there's still more to his journey here. I just find Mark's life situation so, in the best possible way as a writer, so messy and complicated. And that's always really, I would say, good soil.

1:19:15You know, when something's really messy and complicated, it's good to start from there. People are always like, why do you write such dark things? And I'm going, well, if people were happy, I wouldn't have a story, you know? So, like, I feel like they have to move away from something or they're, or either they're stuck or they're trapped or there's a, in Mare's case, you wouldn't confront the death of her son. In Tom's case, he wasn't going to have forgiveness in his heart. I would love to bring him back. And I love the idea of like, who are, you know, who are the characters he has to work with?

1:19:45That was such a joy to write the Grasso's and Lizzie's and Aaliyah's. And I love the idea of, again, I really see myself as a character, right? So the more characters I get to create, the happier I'll be, Joanna.

1:19:56Joanna Robinson:Excellent. Well, I look forward to whatever that looks like. Oh, thank you. And however long I have to wait for it. And thanks so much for the chat. I really appreciate it. Of course. Thanks, Joanna. I really appreciate you guys talking about the show.

1:20:10Bill Simmons:Thanks to Brad Inglesby for joining us. Thanks to Joanna. Sorry, Rob couldn't make it this time around. Thanks to Chris for helping out as well. Who else helped us out? Justin? Probably Kai. Kai Grady. He's probably helping out somewhere in the background. Sounds right. So thanks to everybody. We'll be back for episode seven season finale in one week. Thanks.