The ‘Battlestar Galactica’ Two-Part Episode That Got Us Hooked

26:49also this is a sexy two-parter and it's a funny two-parter and battle circle action is very introspective very heavy very it's not only philosophical it's existential downright existential and so i don't think we can understate the import always of gaius baltar and like that is i should say actually that weirdly feels to me like the biggest wait you started here you're spoiled on something more so than even like oh okay six is a cylon boomer's a cylon we learned the identity of four cylons in the miniseries only two of them are featured here like i think it's that that weirdly feels kind of okay to me gaius's uh career ascension what a lord

27:29Joanna Robinson:new political status is a little bit more vice president Baltar yeah how did we get here wrecking ball but it's just such an incredibly funny Gaius episode in a way that feels very entwined to these big picture like tent poles that we're talking about you know you can't compete with me like born out of the insecurity and the jealousy and the way that connects to everything going on with Lee and Starbuck, Starbuck another one of my favorite television characters of all time you know because I'm a screw-up Lee. Try to keep that in mind. I think a line in a moment like that perfectly encapsulates what Joe's talking about.

28:02If you watch that, you're like, I don't just care about where these characters are going. I need to understand how they got there. And I think weirdly this episode preserves a lot of that. It really does.

28:16Joanna Robinson:There's also the hookiness built into the premise of this. And again, I appreciate the high-flown ideas of Battlestar Galactica. And then I appreciate the sort of like really like street corner, want another taste, like ideas of secret Cylons, right? So in 2005, when we're just really getting into like message board podcast, theorizing culture around shows, you know, like Lost was like a big early example of that. Who's the secret Cylon or who are the secret Cylons or who are these other Cylons being something that pulls at your gut and just gets you to like debate and talk and parse over clues and stuff like that.

29:01Joanna Robinson:And then also, this is another just sort of like, no shame in the game. Mal mentioned this in a group chat we were in this like earlier, but the fact that at any moment you could have a sex scene and you don't even need any buildup to it, you just need Gaius Baltar to go to like his Vancouver mine palace where one of the hottest women alive, Trisha Helfer is there to like make out with him and have sex with him. That's not even the sex you're talking about, but that is available at any given time inside of an episode of Battlestar Galactica. So they can always have sex. They don't even need to lead up to it at all.

29:35Joanna Robinson:And they always have a mystery going right up till the end of like, what, who is that? What's going on? And that's just like, that's television crack in a way that I just like, I really admire because it is paired with these heady high flown ideas about philosophy, religion, politics, human nature all these sort of things it's just a perfect combination high low you know you could put a writer's room lock them up for a hundred years and they wouldn't come up with something as horny and propulsive as this like it is just a perfect concoction i look forward to seeing what they come up with if it's if it's better than this i'm glad to eat my hat on it all right so we have some questions we like to ask as we go through considering this two-parter which again we're also like you should watch the miniseries too five hours of television low low stakes uh to recommend and then you should just watch 33 and then the rest of the show okay that's great is the setting slash location for this episode typical or atypical of the larger season does that matter i think with something like battlestar where we're like doing dogfights in space constantly we're on you know the battlestar battlestar we're on the colonial one and we're on multiple planets that's fairly typical of any given episode that's the show right are enough slash most of the main uh or important characters represented here does that matter mallory what do you want to say about the storylines that we're following inside of this episode i'm gonna just try so so so hard to not say anything that i shouldn't say um i think that this episode is these two episodes are actually slightly more boomer sharon forward than maybe I would not say that even though I love these episodes, they're not my absolute favorite Battlestar episodes.

31:18Almost every single thing that I would pick for my favorite Battlestar episode would be very, very, very oriented around Rosalyn and Adama. Yeah. That said, I think we still get some not only delicious Rosalyn and Adama action in these two episodes. It is a wonderful, even though for us it's at the end of a 15 episode, including the miniseries experience. If you're coming to it fresh, you're like, this dynamic to me is riveting. Right. So I think we get a couple scenes that between them, you know, the scene in the office in particular where Rosalyn is presenting her intention to Adama. And then, of course, the like very active challenge and the fact that these two figures who did not expect to find themselves either of them in this circumstance to begin with are in such active opposition inside of this episode.

32:11incredibly interesting and potent to watch I'll save my further thoughts on that till the end of the podcast when Roslyn lays out her plan and Adama responds with I didn't know you were that religious I honestly love that moment because then she says like neither did I something wrong with that and he says no it's just new and to me that's like the show you know the idea that it's just as much about discovering what you believe in at a given moment as like whether all of humankind is gonna survive and whether it should um the so the the rosalind adama of it all and then rosalind's appeal to starbucks starbucks feeling it out with adama and then obviously everything also with lee and adama i think it is not a spoiler to say that that group of characters and of course then gaius and six are just like the most important characters of the show and they're all prominently featured here and then boomer sharon is certainly also main core cast and i and i think it's like given a number of fascinating and really riveting showcases in this episode the scene with chief gut-wrenching the scene with adama moving the scene with gaius that's my that's to me the standout of the two-parter put it into the hall of fame for like why the gaius in particular is

33:30Joanna Robinson:all-time character i think trisha trisha and james and grace all in that scene are just like incredible just really incredible and like you get um you get incredible human drama you get this like reaction from six of like i actually didn't even know you were capable of that you get this reaction from both of them after that as as you know if you haven't re-watched this episode guys like guys knows that boomer is a cylon yes she's basically saying like i don't know what's wrong she doesn't know she's silent she's like i don't know what's wrong with me i don't know what's going on i'm thinking basically of killing myself and he's like you should yeah but in much more nuanced seductive language than that and so he is like more plausible deniable language than that and it's a very sometimes we must embrace that which opens up for us life can be a curse as well as a blessing this is one of the most insidious things we've It's so serpentine seductive, like biblical moment.

34:31Joanna Robinson:And then you've got this like angelic figure just watching, but also like complicit. It's a fascinating dynamic that you can't explain to people outside. You're like, here's this woman. She's in his head, but also not. Maybe. Who's to say? This is a woman who is asylum, but she doesn't know that. You know, like to try to explain all the context of what's going on here is like downright impossible. And you don't even actually need that context because the human drama that's present inside of that scene, inside of this complicated premise is so potent. I just was jaw on the floor watching it. So good.

35:07My only concern with picking these episodes is like, are we boiling the frog too fast? Like there's a degree of this show where it's like the miniseries kind of pulls you into the very tangible version of the show. And then we ease into the more religious aspects over time. Not having the background about imaginary slash maybe not imaginary six in Gaius's head. That's a hard thing to just like throw an audience into. And yet you're right, Joe. Like you put it together pretty quickly. Okay, this person is actually not in this room. This conversation is taking place along these lines. And what makes Battlestar Galactica Battlestar Galactica is Gaius and Sharon have that serpentine conversation.

35:44He leaves the room and she pulls the trigger. And I can't tell you how many other shows she doesn't. She reconsiders. She goes through some other crisis. Someone else stops her. But this is a show for all the hand-wringing you and I have been doing on Task, Joe, about like whether this child will live or die. That 10 minutes into the miniseries, a Cylon breaks a baby's neck.

36:05Joanna Robinson:horrifying. And you can get away with that when you're about to nuke the whole planet because everything's about to be dead anyway. But still, they do not shy away from any of the very real consequences of any of these characters' actions. And the reason that every line, that every dynamic, that everything you laid out, Mal, in terms of, you know, Adam and Rosalind and their kind of proxy war among themselves and kind of how Sharon factors and how Starbuck factors. And it's like, all that human drama matters because these people are in actual peril all the time. yeah and i think the fact that like okay we see sharon enter the the the base star this mission drop the nuke right and confront all of these other versions naked i might add i wonder why rob was okay with doing these episodes of herself and the fact that we if this is your first exposure to the show understand that there are copies there are models there are a number of different versions does not in any way diminish i think the anguish of watching the helo sharon scenes where she's like, I get cold, Hila.

37:05Like, I get sad. I feel things. And like, our perspective inherently that we bring to a story like this is the humans are good. The machines are bad. Yeah. And I think the way that this show consistently challenges that without pulling us out of it completely is very, very interesting. And this is certainly a complex time to be engaging with those ideas. but I think it's just more a more deft examination of that right and the fact that like something like Rosalind presenting her views on prophecy and like basically saying not basically literally saying to Starbuck like can I tell you about my role in this like I'm the one who's gonna lead us there there are so many versions of that where that is bizarre off-putting alienating something and with Rosalind it's like I love the way that she says um you know people keep telling me it's crazy like that doesn't mean it's not true you know and that she's leaning into the fact that this is a journey of discovery for her as well you love that concept somehow i knew i was gonna bring that up in the like it's all in my head that doesn't mean it's not true kind of sense it's just cat mess it really is it really is um yeah and i think what's important about all

38:22Joanna Robinson:these characters is that you know inside of that moment rosalyn is doing what she believes which is She believes they need this artifact, blah, blah. But is she also, in her calculation, saying to herself, I need to tell Starbuck, who is intensely loyal, that her hero, her father figure lied to her in order to get her to do what I need her to do? Yes. and that is someone you know in in just the episode previous you know she is she's given a certain talking to by her colleague who she is quote-unquote portrayed about like i never saw thought you could be in the snake pit with all the other politicians but guess what you fit right in like rosalyn is uh you know someone who we meet having to make incredibly difficult gut-wrenching many lives in the lines decisions um and over the course of this season we're what and then the series, just watching what that does to a person and who we meet here at the end of the season and who we meet here at the end of the season is even more interesting than the very interesting person that we met in the miniseries.

39:28Joanna Robinson:And Mary McDonnell and Edward James Olmos as like the two like - Mom and dad. And Michael Hogan who plays Ty were like the three like really experienced actors that they brought onto this production. Then you cast a bunch of other people who have like, yeah I've been doing stuff like Trisha Helfer hadn't done like anything Katie Sackhoff had done like a few you know like you bring these other people who are much greener in and so you have this natural dynamic of leader and like subordinate and all these other things it's just like it's a really fascinating construction I mean that's where you get kind of a west wing effect too I mean slightly different cast in terms of experience but it's like you put Martin Sheen at the center of a show like that and everything kind of just falls into place in context Edward James almost like could not be better in this show and mary mcdonald could not be better in this show and their chemistry together and the way those characters are written to bounce off of each other is just scintillating tv and it like again the fact that every other dynamic especially within these two episodes kind of folds into theirs maybe with the exception of the six guys some of the six guys stuff or some of the like guys and his sense of self-preservation stuff which is really just an ongoing plot line that the show is perpetually concerned with um like that is the magic of what makes Battlestar work structurally.

40:43Joanna Robinson:But you need that fun of Six and Gaius. The fact that like... That was a feature, not a bug. Yeah. Mary McDonnell or just Laura Roslin is someone that you could just like pluck out of the show and put her in the West Wing and she just fits there in that show, which is stunning. You know, Gaius and Six are of this show undeniably and that's not a knock on Roslin who I love, but I just, for me, the show is Gaius and Six. And like, my confusion around, my persistent confusion around what's real and what's not. But what's always sexy, what's always fun, was always smart, was always cunning. I love a villain.

41:31Joanna Robinson:But then also a villain who I'm like, I'm not even sure I would call you a villain. Actually, at the end of the day, I'm actually not confident about that. And so, you know, I, anytime that Mallory brings up Rosalind and Adama and how much she loves their dynamic and how important they are to her, I love hearing you talk about that. And I also love that for me, the show is something a little different, which is this other thing. And you need all those things to make the show, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I think like, I really love the way you put it that Gaius and Six feel like of this world in a way that they don't make sense necessarily in any other universe.

42:06I think that this is one of the more successful ensemble casts in TV history. And like the fact that there are so many different pairings, like that people could form that level of attachment to and devotion to. Like, I can't think about my life as a TV viewer without thinking about Adam and Rosalind. Like, I can't. But the consistently most entertaining part of watching the show for me is Gaius, for sure. you know, Gaius at six. So like, I love that it's all there. And I think it has to all be there. Like that's the, that's the just of a piece with all the stuff we're talking about today about, it's like this level of, of variance and specificity that makes it feel so fully realized.

42:47Like it's not just that we're watching people talk about what we need inside of a society. You believe that this is a society that it was that they want it to be again, because of how fully realized and rich it is, you know?

42:58Joanna Robinson:I have an important question for you, Mallory, in terms of like, all the conversations that they have about like we need to protect our democracy our like blah blah all of our way of life blah blah would you say that survival is insufficient inside of something like this or i would indeed i would say i would that's crazy yes i would not say survive and endure i would say survival is insufficient for sure rob do you have a relationship that feels like the most core to this show that you that you're most invested in i am also an adama and roslyn guy but like again it's it's extremely hard to pick and choose favorites it is it's so difficult especially within the context of like the lee adama stuff is also so rich and the and the lee starbucks stuff is so rich it's great the way that those three characters end up triangulating of course because starbuck has her own complicated relationship with adama and like their own kind of secret language in a lot of ways it's like adama is like second on my list honestly They speak in a code that I just find endlessly fascinating.

43:58What do you hear, Starbuck? Nothing but the rain. Nothing but the rain scene. Again, it's just like, they're just coming out of the gate with this stuff. Yeah, that's right at the start.

44:06Joanna Robinson:It's like right at the start, which is stunning. And to build and build and build to the point that we get to Cobol's last gleaming, where you have all of that, the earned history we talked about, the world building that was there from the jump, that dialogue, those dynamics. And now we're just getting into a richness of ideas where we are iterating on iterating on iterating on iterating. And I think it is a great example of how far the show can go while at the same time. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look.

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45:44Joanna Robinson:American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. terms apply learn more at americanexpress.com slash business dash platinum like we're just scratching the surface if we were to play the honorary bill simmons who won the episode game the give out a trophy just one trophy mallory no cheating just one trophy yeah who wins this episode i think it has to be gaius okay why right um i to like as much as i'm always inclined to want to pick Adama or Rosalind I think yeah it's got to be Gaius or Sharon to me I think they just carry the most weight and for Gaius this is always the case I think it's the number of different flavors that he gives us the fact that like we already talked about that scene that we all adore um with Gaius and Sharon and and and Six and I think like something that is as emotionally rich and dark as that paired with his uh frankly like insecure male ego mania at the card table paired with his complete breakdown when they crash paired with as as is so often the case i mean we have rosalyn and elosha like outright discussing prophecy but gaius is the one taking us into that the ruins of the temple for the first time he touches every strand of the tapestry across these two episodes and it's just the performance is it's so entertaining like i just think if you're trying to compel someone to watch the show my hope is that they would come to consider Adama one of the most important figures in their life if they watch these two episodes I think they would say why have I not heard everybody around me every minute of every day talking about guys Balter great great pick I am gonna cheat I'm sorry it's the Sharon's I think it's all that's fair that's a fair cheat I mean the Sharon who wants to continue to be Boomer manages to survive her own suicide and then pull off what is basically a suicide mission to nuke a Cylon base ship.

47:47That's a win as far as I'm concerned. But the Cylon sleeping within her also wins because it awakens at the worst possible time to shoot Adama in the gut or the chest several times. And the other Sharon also wins because she convinces Hilo to keep her alive. And somehow, I think this is the toughest sell in the entire episode of all the far-flung plans that people are trying to convince each other of. To convince a human being that you as a robot are pregnant is quite a feat. So I think it has to be the Sharons.

48:19Joanna Robinson:Katie Sackhoff is my winner of this episode. Despite my Gaia 6 love and all that sort of stuff like that is the subtlety of the Adama conversation where she's fishing for information and Starbuck is not known for her subtlety. But like that that moment, the moment where she she gives a punch takes a punch uh you know with with lee the moment where um she fights a cylon and wins she fights six and wins and then has that like goddural scream yeah uh about finding out about not only finding out about sharon but also like this idea that helo is like no you can't you know like all this sort of stuff like that like i think that just gives us the full spectrum of what Katie can do and what Katie is so, just from the moment we meet her and there's like Cheshire grin on her face and just this cocksure bullshit.

49:20Joanna Robinson:I just love her. I think she's amazing. And I just love her in these two episodes. That's fascinating, Lee. You should write a paper quietly in the moment of the season. Maybe the series. Maybe, perhaps. Absolutely incredible stuff. um this is i think we've just like made the case for why these are great episodes and why the show is amazing it's like you're getting that exposure to how many of these characters are going to work their way into your heart and like touch your life honestly not to be too corny about it it's just it is a great showcase for that as is the miniseries which everybody should watch this is not the case against the miniseries i'm very anxious about people thinking i don't want them to watch the miniseries.

50:02On the Sharon front,

50:06I think that Sharon saying to Chief, like I wake up in the morning and I wonder who I am. I wake up and I wonder if I'm going to hurt someone is just so, it's so gentle and quiet, but it's beautiful and it's anguish inducing and it tells us what we need to know. And then he's like, you need help. And she's like, not from you. You made that clear. Yeah. You know, and it's just like, fuck you Chief, honestly. Again, the choices people make. I mean, there's also the the added layer.

50:33Joanna Robinson:And, you know, we talked about this with a bunch of different shows, but the added juice of rewatching these episodes, knowing who is a Cylon and doesn't even know that they're a Cylon. It's spicy. It's an incredible rewatch. Really fun. And now. Yeah. Well, all of that said, one thing that I think is important to know about the Battlestar Galactica experience, if you're new to this world or considering watching it, there will be plot holes now and again. There will be some things that no one can explain. Inconsistencies in character. Do all of the who is a Cylon revelations completely add up?

51:08I don't know, man. I also don't entirely care. And I think this is the kind of show that this is easing you into the idea that like, you're just gonna have to be along for the ride on this stuff. You're just gonna have to be following the prophecy and buying in on some of this on faith. And the reason you buy in is because the character stuff works. And if that's working for you, I think you're gonna be able to go along with a lot.

51:28Joanna Robinson:Something that we've been doing on these hooked episodes is like the most blank thing about the episode in terms of the year that it came out. This is harder to do in a show that is set in a different time and place as is Battlestar Galactica. But is there a 2005 thing about this episode that stood out to you? Whether it's like characterization, hair, costume, concept, anything like that. I had a hard time with this one. I guess it just took me back in a way I enjoyed to the like, actually, the best show on TV is on sci-fi. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Crazy times. I really like, I actually, I like Joe.

52:06I did not watch it live when it was on. Adam did. And so at the end, I was like, what is this show? But, you know, it wasn't getting spoiled because it was so out of context for me. And then the second it ended, we watched it all and then immediately watched it all again. And then I started evangelizing for it and got like everybody I know to watch it. But yeah, I guess that's my pick. and also especially hearing your nugget that you shared, Joe, about how they were like, we can't afford to go the toaster route.

52:32Joanna Robinson:That's why Grace Park is naked in this episode, too, actually, because it made the visual effects easier. They didn't have to pay for costuming. No, no. It was just easier to digitally overlay a bunch of naked Sherrods versus a bunch of costumed Sherrods. Sure. Yes, of course. But also, I love the carefully placed shadow of the Battlestar Galactica nudity. Yeah, you can see boobs. but not nipples so like that's helpful it's key I do think that the effects and I say this with real love for this television show do not hold up like super great that being said I would agree but also the way that they shot it which is like this documentary sort of style helps especially with like the space dogfight stuff you know what I mean the snap zooming all of that stuff really helps the space stuff like holds up better I think like when a like a Cylon Cylon walks into the room I'm like this was a couple decades ago.

53:25Joanna Robinson:This is why it's great that they look like humans. I will give it to you, and this is something that I love to think about. This is something our friend of the pod, I will say, Alan Steppenwald, who is one of the best in the entire business, brought this up when he was on our Lost podcast years ago, which is the commercial break. When you're watching a show that went to commercial and the act out of a scene, and the dramatic sort of up act out of a scene which they don't even really do for shows that have commercials anymore because they know they're going to go to streaming without commercials so they don't put those act outs in there but watching something like lost or something like this that that once aired um to commercial it's really like there's this just like this fun anticipatory rhythm of it that is very nostalgic for me that i really totally yeah i had another lost related pick for the most 2005 thing which is watching these two shows in tandem along with some other kind of mid-2000s stuff right now um everyone was going through crises of faith it seems there's just like a lot of like man of science man of faith i don't i don't think we've ever stopped but i think it was like like such a fundamental point of like front page concern in a way that to be honest now like watching battle star now yes the crisis of faith stuff hits but my primary concern from a present societal perspective is like people are already giving up everything to ai and ai doesn't even look like trisha helfer in a tight red dress yet like how fucked are we we're fucked yeah totally uh but yeah like just how much like so much whether it's big cable in this case or big major network media is primarily concerned with issues of faith in terms of narrative and i think i think that's scaled back some in more recent creations but like it's all over the place with these two shows um i will say that you know like thinking about the miniseries coming out in 2003 which is only like two years after 9-11 and the way in which the shadow of 9-11 and the Iraqi war, at least in American media, like really cast a long shadow.

55:26Joanna Robinson:Rob, I just got really emotional hearing you say man of science, man of faith. Like I'm so happy that you're watching Lost. It really thrills me. Thank you for the gateway. Because you're a man of science, Rob. You know what? I do consider myself more a man of science, but increasingly, you know, you just got to follow your era of Apollo at some point. You just gotta know. I think we've already talked about how this episode sets up the rest of the series. Anything else you want to say about Kobo's Last Gleaming specifically before we hit on some beats of the miniseries, which we've also talked about a bit.

55:58Joanna Robinson:But we might want to say some more. Anything else, Mallory, you want to say? No. Wow. I don't think so. I do have one. You know, Joe, sometimes I like to isolate particular scenes that were noteworthy for us. in particular the scene where Gaius is having a conversation with Rosalind about how he needs to take a break as VP and with Six about how they need to go on a break and does it simultaneously something that happens a version of which happens basically every episode of Battlestar Galactica fucking phenomenal and the double writing on this show around Gaius and Six and and James Callis is like pausing delivery where he then has to kind of reroute his thoughts so that it can apply to the other situation just phenomenal stuff that's one of the better things for the the conversational gymnastics because a lot of it obviously is about like the way he's like holding a hand or like where he's looking or the fact that somebody catches him talking to himself and he has to say i'm talking to myself or doing other things with himself famously yeah jacking off in the lab because he's fucking someone against the edge of the table you know it could take many shapes and forms inside of this wonderful television program.

57:07But the, yeah, the, the conversational gymnastics of him having to turn us mid sentence, something that can fly all around is, is it's high comedy art. Great. I mean, and even that, like it is high comedy, it is art. And then you drill down and it is what the show is, which is taking these like wild ideas and forcing them to confront very practical realities. It's like, we have these prophecies, we have these religious beliefs, we have these things we can't explain. And yet you have to call Commander Adama to the room and say, You know what? I think we just need to take our one Cylon Raider and go on a mission that makes absolutely no sense to you.

57:43And the intersection of those things is what makes the show really, really crackle. All right.

57:48Joanna Robinson:So in terms of like this section where we talk about the pilot and whether or not like we think it works, we're expanding the prompt and saying you can talk about either the miniseries, which we've already talked about a little bit, or 33, which is season one, episode one, which to Mallory's point, people who are confused about the miniseries, plenty of people start with season one, episode one, not knowing that the miniseries is really like not really optional viewing. it really helps to have watched the miniseries. This is what I will say about 33 and 33 and Water were a double premiere. So I guess you could even do Water if you wanted to.

58:22Joanna Robinson:Mallory's the one who has watched all the episodes. But the way that 33, and this feeds into what we were saying about Edward James Olmos being a leader on set. I was listening to Katie Sackhoff talk about how when they were doing 33, Edward James Olmos was like, okay guys, none of us are gonna sleep. We're not gonna sleep. we're just gonna stay awake and we're gonna do this and we're gonna lose our minds but it's gonna be great for our art and katie's like you do that i'm not doing that i mean canonically they have been awake for five straight days or something at this point it's like absolutely not my guy everyone looks like shit i love that like your show got picked up after a lot of back and forth on sci-fi and your first episode you have to look as much like shit as you possibly can unless you're Grace Park.

59:09Joanna Robinson:And, and, and then the fact that the premise of this episode is, what are your limits as a human? Right? Like what, you know, in terms of the idea, the concept of the one where every 33 minutes Cylon shows show up is like a really great little like our television premise. But also like, the very nature of the frailty of our team is that they need sleep, man. They need rest or a lot of stims, you know, whatever it takes. That always goes fine. How many stims are you on today? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No comment. Also, once again, this is my same as my White Lotus issue. The way that she chews that stim, I'm like, I don't believe that that tastes good.

59:58Joanna Robinson:I don't believe it. Terrible. Mallory, what do you want to say? Anything you want to say about the miniseries or 33 that we haven't highlighted already? I think the miniseries is absolutely dynamite. I think 33 is great. I think everybody should watch both of them. I do think people should start with the miniseries genuinely. I think part of the exercise of Hooked is, as you guys have said, not to always pick the actual first episode and to engage with the exercise in that way and make it the extreme why not start at the end, I think is a fun prompt for this pod. I think that the miniseries, we talked about this actually pretty recently together, Joe, because I picked this as one of my entries for best speeches.

1:00:34of the century so far. The Adama speech in the miniseries, you cannot play God, then wash your hands of the things that you've created sooner or later. The day comes when you can't hide from the things you've done anymore. Feels relevant now in our lives, certainly. We never answered the question, why? Why are we as a people worth saving? I think it's just incredible and I hope that people watch it. I think that certainly two 90 minute episodes plus the question of whether they need to is a barrier to entry. 33, I think, is a great episode of TV. And I think it is very representative of the conceptually and, like, structurally and stylistically bold choices that Battlestar can often make.

1:01:20I think, like, particularly the first three quarters of season one is defined by a lot of episodes like that. They never go away. It's just that the seasons get longer. So it feels like a larger percentage of season one is I think like oriented around. That's why Cobalt stands out to me is like when the show kind of moves into a different state of being. It's a little trekkier, I would say. Yes. You could see it just as an episode of The Next Generation. As a Trek episode. Yeah. And so like while I think it is a really great, very clever, incredibly taut, intense episode and I think also still there are like very poignant things that happen that we have to examine and the characters have to examine what happens with the Olympic carrier, for example.

1:02:02That choice is a huge one. But it's just less rooted in the relationships between the characters and the dynamics between the characters than I think the true, true, true Hall of Fame Battlestar episodes are. And also, in terms of the prompt for Hooked, I think part of the point of 33 and part of what makes it a great episode of TV is people are not behaving like themselves, but I don't think that makes it the best starting point to show people what Battlestar is going to be.

1:02:31Joanna Robinson:It's so funny, though. I was talking to a friend of mine who loves Battlestar Galactica, but hasn't watched it in a while, but he loves it. And I was like, oh, yeah, we're going to do a hooked episode. And he's like, oh, are you doing the one where they have to jump every 33 minutes? And I was like, no. I was like, but that's a premise that people just remember. Of course. Oh, the one where, you know, like, blah, blah, blah. Yes. Yeah, I think it's a showcase episode in that respect. Yeah, absolutely. Weirdly, the other one that I considered for season one, but like quickly eliminated because it comes it's another two-parter not formally in its labeling but it comes after an episode that literally ends with to be continued so i just don't think it would be a good faith like one to start but the fifth episode of season one um depending on where you watch and buy season one of battle start the episode numbers will be different based on whether they have coded the mini series into the episode count this is frustrating debacle um but you can't go home again i i don't think based on the to be continued and the fact that like starbucks says this entire episode raw dog in the inside of a cylon raider i don't think it actually would be the wise choice to say to someone don't you want to watch 70 plus hours of this however i think it is at least it warrants mention because it is a beautiful beautiful episode for understanding the Adama-Starbuck and Adama-Apollo relationships.

1:03:52Like, if it were you, we'd never leave. No matter how many times I watch that episode, it will break me and I will weep like a baby when Adama says that to Lee and when Adama visits Kara in her hospital bed at the end. You understand so clearly how much these people mean to each other in an episode like that, which I think is... them. It's valuable to show people. I think there's a lot of entry points, to be honest with you, in season one. I think this is a show where you could throw on a lot of different installments and hook somebody. The key is just getting it in front of them if they are not a sci-fi person.

1:04:28Or as we talked about, even the word miniseries and when they see the runtime can be a little daunting for some people. And so if you just put on the miniseries in the background and didn't tell anyone what it was, it's incredibly grabby. This idea of seeing the thermonuclear annihilation of the planet. And the only people who survive are basically on the people who are on ships that are too old to take the computer virus effectively. An incredibly evocative idea. And Mal, you nailed it up front. of like the confrontation of a like staunch military commander in those circumstances who's doing everything he can possibly think of to keep people alive versus a political leader who understands that the war is already over is such a good juicy piece of tv writing and what what really does it honestly in terms of what i think makes the miniseries and ultimately what makes battle star what it is the show looks great like the the effects are a little janky but the way it's shot like is dynamic is interesting and i think really exemplified in the stuff with with gaius and six too where you just have these constant sort of like swivels around the room and in terms of the camera where it will eventually find six you know perched against a counter or sitting in a chair or across the room and it's like you again you think you're watching one scene and then six is in it and it transforms the meaning of everything you're watching and so it it turns what on a lot of other TV shows, just like normal workaday stuff of like, let's just get our coverage.

1:05:56Here's the closeup. Here's the medium shot. Like very normal stuff to keep the television chains moving into. Now this is like an active part of the telling of the story in a much more fascinating way.

1:06:07Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Trisha Helfer is fricking amazing. I, what Rob and I promised each other when we started this mini series is that we weren't going to do like, this is what it takes to make a good pilot like that's not the premise of this that being said this is what it takes to make a good pilot the opening of the miniseries i was thinking you we talked about this a lot uh we were talking about joan harris giving a tour of the office in mad men and that sort of idea of an entry to uh a world that you haven't been in before and so you know we are watching a character who happens to be a cylon uh give a tour of the battle star and give us the history of it.

1:06:48Joanna Robinson:And as we're going through, you know, Starbuck runs into frame. Adama's practicing his speech. Ty, Chief, Gaeta, like all like come into, I know, Mr. Gaeta. Shout out, Mr. Gaeta. My favorite connection to Star Trek. A nod to Mr. Data. I love that. The, the like, it's so elegant the way that it is done at the beginning of the miniseries. The way the camera's flowing, the way these very natural lived in relationships are being shown to us. We get that call and response with Starbuck and Adama. We get the information about what the Battlestar is. We get all of this sort of stuff. And then our introduction to Rosalind, which is like via this diagnosis she gets.

1:07:35Joanna Robinson:Like there are all these, like it's a very slick, very, very slick introduction to a world where expository language is wrapped up inside of like premise and uh again that is like in theory what the joan joan harris and like we like the madman pilot we're like knocking it forever but there's a bad version of that and and this is i think an even better version uh than than what we get inside of madman which i think madman is often a better show than battle star galactica But like in this instance, I think Battlestar Galactica leaps over what Madman accomplishes in that setup. You know what I mean?

1:08:14I think the highs that you hit in the miniseries emotionally are just unprecedented, maybe strong, but incredibly unusual. Like, right, that you're trying to introduce all these characters. You're trying to build this world out. You're trying to get people used to what it means to be on the Galactica, for example. And yet by the end of it, you're getting emotional haymakers. And some of that is because of the runtime. Some of that is because of we're talking about basically the annihilation of a species or the near annihilation of it. But two things kind of come to mind on just like a visceral level.

1:08:46There is something to having seen all the buildup of an Earth equivalent planet like decimated. And then seeing basically human beings get their first chance to strike back, right? It's like the first time that the Galactica or the Starfighters dispatch from the Galactica kind of encounter. her Cylon ships the Cylon flip of the switch that deactivates all of the new tech and all of the new starfighters it's like there's just something like skin-crawlingly devastating about that idea and like turning you know the military into fish in a barrel basically that is just like really hard to watch and really effective and I think this is something that they do so well in the miniseries and that really drives it home putting a real human facing cost on all the losses right it's sometimes it's as simple as like rosalyn meets this little girl and that little girl is among the people who get left behind that's some that's some real nasty

1:09:41Joanna Robinson:work honestly for the right nasty work but again this is how you know what show you're watching and this is just sitting there stroking the yarn hair on her doll painful and like obviously we talked about this with kobold's last gleaming like when adama says he's you know making this whole oh despite any personal misgivings you might have had he's wrong but we love him so worked like kind of swept up the complexity the way that that is so present throughout the miniseries like what does it even mean to have a misgiving if the goal is so clear move forward but then also how could you not have a misgiving literally every step of the way and i think i love what you guys are both saying about physical space and also how we work our way around the space and then you think of something like, okay, I think that realizing they have to use the old Vipers wearing my Viper shirt, you know, the Mark IIs, and you take something that's literally like a gift shop, a museum, and you make it your staging ground for the war.

1:10:37How many of the people who were on the Galactica prepping for the decommissioning thought they would ever see combat? There's all of that. But then there's something like, okay, you go into Adama's office, which is one of my favorite sets. his not just his office his chambers his quarters yeah yeah and it's beautiful it's rich and like you think it's full of noodles it's it's full of noodles it's full of books and some of the most crucial things in life and like you think okay this feels like a place somebody lives it's a place he's going to be able to then open up to other people and share something whether it's a rowdy dinner with some reunited family members later in the season or passing a book to rosalyn But then you think, OK, those are like that's just it.

1:11:20What if that wasn't just someone sharing a book with someone else, but those were all the books? Right. So like the way that like every space takes on this extra heft and depth because of what people have had ripped away from them. And similarly, like when we're ported into Gaius's mind and we're always back on these like beautiful, resplendent lakefront vistas. Vancouver, baby. Vancouver looks great in the show as it always does. And you think like, okay, space, openness, the expanse of possibility. And then you move into the tight confines of having to work inside of a small arms, you know, hatch or move down into the shared bathroom elsewhere in the season.

1:11:59But like Gaius and Gaeta sharing one of the most memorable conversations while Gaeta is just trying to take a shit. Like this is how you got to make it work for you. You're just not like, that's just the fleet. There are only so many places to go. so like the way in the miniseries that everything feels so limited and I love like when we establish the number the head count which becomes obviously something we track throughout the series and it's like there could be a part of you that said that out loud and thought okay we got some people we can protect and then you're like that's a baseball stadium like that's pretty small it's not great it's not a lot of people it's rough

1:12:36Joanna Robinson:I also say inside of the luxury of a three hour miniseries which again like every other show wishes they had three hours to establish their world but like you've got essentially like standalone episodes inside like the sequence where adama and number two calum keith runny's character are you know we meet an arms dealer adama like realizes he's asylum but he's still pretending he's not a silent and they're trapped together in this tunnel that's an episode that's an episode of television you know what i mean and it's really juicy and really really good and just like and then they're violent they're violent and it's like but it's got great ideas inside of it and something like that and that's just like something you could see unfolding over the course of an entire hour and they just are they're just like that's just one side plot that we're just gonna slot inside of all of this it's just that's the f plot of the miniseries exactly exactly insane shit leoban always great okay big time spoiler section yeah on the other side of this rob's gonna give his loss his brief loss takes so you have to get you have to fly through the meteor field that is the major spoilers in Battlestar Galactica.

1:13:42Joanna Robinson:So skip ahead, skip ahead, skip ahead. If you haven't watched it. We'll throw that in the timestamps too. If you want to skip the spoilers. No, we won't. Yeah, we won't. We won't. Well, we won't, but Donnie will, thankfully. Yeah. So jump ahead to the Lost stuff if that's what you're interested in. If you have any interest in watching Battlestar Galactica, please do not listen to this. All right. That's your warning. Spoiler section. Dry off your hands if you've been washing the dishes and go hit pause on your device. You've been warned. Here we go. Mally Rubin, what have you been keeping a secret as you've been talking about this show?

1:14:15I mean, obviously, like we're going to keep this to five minutes. There's like so much we could say. I think the Cobalt's last gleaming is massive in terms of a number of different things. Gaius's political career and the role that that ultimately plays in the show. You know, when we talk about like structural innovation, the eventual time jump and lay down your burdens is like one of my favorite moments in television history. We're building toward that here, obviously. The opera house, the visions, the baby, you know, the fact that one of that, that, that, that, that she is pregnant, that that baby will be born, that that Sharon becomes Athena and that this baby is Hera.

1:14:57the shape of things to come. Obviously, we're setting a key path here on that front. And obviously, the relationship that Hilo maintains there as well. This is a very key episode for that. We didn't talk about Hilo very much. I do love Hilo. I love Hilo. I do love Hilo. Absolutely love. A lot of key stuff on the Cobalt and Earth, both original Earth and then eventual Earth fronts to hit here. But mostly what I wanted to say is just that Rosalind and Adama ending up together is like, the most important thing that has ever happened and like i just love thinking about like what it's like to be at the beginning of their relationship and then work your way toward that point i'm like getting i'm actually starting to cry unsurprisingly but like when you my favorite moment i have a couple you guys have both heard me talk about them before like obviously at the very end he's sitting there alone and he's like like we built it i just can't handle it's almost unbearable but when he waits for her when he's the one who waits season four episode nine the hub and she returns missed you me too the way that she whispers i love you to him is like maybe my favorite moment in tv history other than like i won't spoil game of thrones for people but the baby reveal in winds of winter like i just think it is absolutely stunning and gorgeous and like it it is like a life lived between these two characters and we get to such a rewarding meaningful place with them and i love how i love being reminded of how often it was really hard for them to find their way to that point so it's just like the best and you know

1:16:39Joanna Robinson:a trope that is just everyone's favorite in across many many things and we've talked about before is this idea of enemies to lovers and this i this idea of a extremely well-earned it's not a like we fight we fight we kiss we kiss like whatever it's like a slow burn grudging respect built over decision decision decision at the beginning uh the very beginning of all this when adama and rosalyn are at odds it's like we're fighting over who is actually in charge or something like that and he asked sadar like you were right about this like that is something that he says to her but then like he he arrests her by the end of the season you know what i mean it's just sort of like this they're not enemies in the classic sense of the word but they are at odds and they are at odds until they are not and then even then they still are and so that's just so real and human and and mallory and i talk about this a lot this idea of like the depth that you can go into with such long-form storytelling you know what i mean you could just sort of like and and long-form storytelling that is a bit more episodic like battle star can be where you just have little little moments little plots little things that are just sort of build build build build build to this other this other thing ron moore said uh in in the battle star galactica cast episode that i was listening to he was like my writers wanted rosalyn and dom to kiss at the end of season one and he's like if we're gonna do it we have to wait he was like we gotta wait we can't do it here so I love that.

1:18:10Season one would have been crazy.

1:18:11Joanna Robinson:Absolutely bonkers. I mean, when I'm watching season one, I'm like, I can't wait for these two to fuck. But I think this is a portrait of restraint and why that is often the wiser course. It is just so amazing to watch them work to that point. I like how you put a joke. It's not enemies, because they're aligned in their goals, but often at odds. And I think that feels like... It's just so consistently interesting to watch. And then the way that that reality between them that so many other characters are swept up in that you know obviously in the episodes we talked about today uh lee and and starbuck and ty um i was also gonna say i think it's so funny that they give us a leah a lee and starbuck sex scene fake out sex scene and then they never give that to us in the show is a crazy move to never give that brutal stuff for guys though to lee he's tough he deserves you know what like he deserves that in more he deserves that in more he could take it you know like i think he's being a can't clearly he should he should he should still take it joe you you were right to point out that the finale is obviously controversial and people a lot of very intense feelings about it i have a hard time myself given everything you just laid out mal about adama and rosin specifically when i think of the finale i think of them two together like i think of their scenes yeah and how can a show that ends like that not be satisfying like i i i get yeah i agree a warmth of soul from thinking about it hold on to those thoughts and feelings as you traverse lost i implore you yeah i i imagine there's going to be some commonality there but it's like whatever questions i have about like is starbuck an angel or whatever just like melt away against like the sheer emotional firepower of what Battlestar is capable of.

1:20:05Joanna Robinson:All right. Anything else you want to say in this big time spoiler section venting of kept secrets moment? I mean, just like in the long arc sense, I think Gaius is one of the great TV characters of all time. I agree. He's an absolute dipshit and I hate him most of the time, but I love watching him and I love him on this show. My most delicious like Secret Cylon moment in this rewatch was like, um you know the show telegraphs the whole like sharon you seem fine like sort of stuff but also ty is kind of fine relative to other people around him and i like actually don't know when they knew who they were making a silent or not but like yeah that was ellen is the one that i'm like i don't think they know about ellen i i think i think that was a late addition uh that's funny because ellen is the one who actually has the cover in season one of like whoa i'll never tell you know what everyone else i i think that my my memory is that ron moore has said before about a couple things certainly the final five um the time jump at the end of season two etc like a thing that he has said about some of the bold choices of the show is like i'm paraphrasing i threw it out in the room and everyone was scared so i knew it was right which is great which is a great approach to television i don't need them to have known all along i just don't want to be like well they knew here i'm like i don't think they knew here but like it's fun on a rewatch to find it completely yeah yeah and i think the cobalt earth stuff is pretty satisfying on a on a rewatch as well that's like in terms of just the quest of where we're meant to be and where we came from and where we end up that's that's there's a lot of good stuff there here i also think too like i mean we could have talked about this with the main section too but in terms of the like the disorientation that comes with watching any pilot and you're like there's so many characters i'm trying to get used to these places having like potential multiples of characters or like trying to track like where is aaron dorrell exactly like all that stuff is really fun within the disorientation of the show and i feel like battle star plays with the cylon stuff i mean just so well they just string you along perfectly um all right well that's battle star galactica and we did it in under 90 minutes leaving just a few minutes to spare for rob mahoney to give us a lost check-in so rob i was wondering i know you watched you got you got covet i know you watched a lot of lost i did i ripped through the first season in like four days people don't don't tell me what i can't do i never would um you know about the numbers you know about the hatch you know you know a bunch of stuff um so what i thought we might do is just like a season one check-in like i know you've washed a little into season two but let's just talk up through season one just in a couple minutes rob mahoney uh and spoilers for season through season one of lost rob mahoney how's it going uh it's going great yeah i mean to echo something that mal was just saying about battlestar like this is one of the most fully realized and well-balanced ensembles i've ever seen in a tv show i care about every single character even the ones that like i'm a little more annoyed by here and there.

1:23:14I'm happy to report after our first pilot check-in, Jack still sucks. As far as I can tell, we'll probably always suck. Not my favorite character, but I am invested in his daddy issues. I'm invested in his plot lines. There's a lot going on there. And Joe, I have a question for you of, you know, in terms of your personal origin story, your own personal lost flashback, are the lost flashback wigs the origin of wig watch?

1:23:37Joanna Robinson:Oh, certainly Jack's flashback bangs. It's real bad. those are the worst ones those are the worst ones uh maybe maybe uh that's where it all came from um malurban do you as as a lover of lost do you have any questions for rob about his season one journey i just want to say that i think sometimes we air as people and a collective by treating ourselves to too much of a good thing this is the inverse of what you were saying at the top i'm a little worried about the three of us sharing lost battlestar and buffy together it's a lot happening how are we gonna maintain moving forward um lost is one of the other when i say like this is one of my three favorite shows lost is one of one of the other top three shows for me like i i have i always kind of change my power ranking of my top 10 i'd say but like lost and battlestar are always just gonna be right near the top no matter what i mean these are just two of the i think best and most important shows ever made and certainly the two that mean the most to me um two of the ones that mean the most to me should we just start talking about friday night lights next i'm ready i'm ready i'm ready um i need to know how you're feeling about sawyer that's my big question he's must see tv honestly he was from the pilot and yeah rob called it early he's like i was and so you're like kind of barely in the pilot so i didn't expect you to really clock him and you're like you know what that guy's sawyer i'm like he shot a polar bear in the pilot like look there's a there's a lot happening he is super racist early on it's okay he kind of you know it fades to the background a little bit uh two sawyer things one i would say my favorite episode of season one by far outlaws aka sawyer and kate go hunting for the boar and by the boar i mean the demons within um incredible episode of tv i actually think that's the best sawyer ever looks like his hair is like perfectly feathered not that that's the point but it is the point well um how he maintains the hair is a great question as far as the logistics of lost also the running bit of him calling Jin Chewy is one of my favorite parts of the show.

1:25:36Just tremendous comedy.

1:25:40Joanna Robinson:Now that you've been through season one, do you see what I mean about the pilot, like, swerving a little hard on Jin and then having to, like, really swerve out of that characterization? I mean, the Jin son stuff in general, like, I would say overall season one of Lost. I am stuck in the Bermuda Triangle of, like, constant mystery box intrigue the numbers the hatch i have i have some questions about like season one finale hatch looked really small season two premiere hatch looked much bigger i don't know what happened in the off season it seems like they did some renovating the mystery box intrigue the like really fun writing just like really crackling dialogue on a really consistent basis and then just the emotional haymakers of all these people and the gin's son like slow motion heartbreak backstory stuff that has already been kind of like revised and rashamond and like you know they're showing all these different angles from it that make it really interesting but like just when you think you're getting your bearings you get that or you get like the flashback episodes or you get like i mean walt leaving vincent with shannon just fucked me up so bad when when the raft goes out and the raft themes play and the raft theme is just like one of the best things that Michael Giacchino has ever done.

1:27:01Joanna Robinson:But the raft theme plays and Vincent tries to swim out to the raft to get to Walt's. As a human being who is currently for moving related reasons, I don't have my dog here. You still don't have your dog? It's impending, incoming. It's just trying to settle in before the dog gets here. Sure, sure, sure. Very tough to have all this Vincent content and not be able to console my own dog, not to be able to curl up. I feel like I am adrift out on my own personal raft, clinging to a pontoon. I think the scene where you and I have similar Jack takes, but the scene where Jack and Sawyer are talking about Jack's dad is something I cry about every single time I think about it every single time I watch it.

1:27:52It's just really good television. shit yeah the lead up to the season one finale overall is just like again they've been doling out a lot of really powerful emotional moments and yet there's just more and more in the chamber and it's it's impressive how much and i think some of this is a virtue of having an ensemble this big and so many characters who can pay off here and there in totally different ways is you can just keep drawing from different places all of that said if you had to trim the ensemble if you had to say goodbye to somebody i think boone was the right person you know just saying

1:28:24Joanna Robinson:If you had to do it, I think he's the right call. They just didn't know what to do with him. Poor Boone. They did not. But you know, like who they did know what to do with, and Joe, you and I talked about this a little bit. I have been consistently impressed and pleasantly surprised at what they do with Kate, a character who I think could just be so bland, cut and dry on other versions of this show. And like, they let her be real messy in ways that I really, really appreciate. Molly Rubin, anything you want to say about John Locke? I was just gonna say not enough mentions of John Locke you're absolutely right I think that Locke is a character I really love and I think just a very rich text obviously the season one Locke episodes are I mean Walkabout was really really special Walkabout is unbelievable I really like Deus Ex Machina as well season one Locke is like inspired I would say for me it's Sawyer it's John Locke, it's Rose.

1:29:24Those are the three that I'm like, I'm locked in with these three anytime they're on screen. And I mean, of course, I'm enjoying basically the presence of everybody else, give or take, you know, the occasional like Jack mope around, but great show. You know what? Turns out loss is really good. How quickly do you think you'll finish? Well, part of the problem is now that this is a household concern. When I was just a man with COVID, I was ripping through episodes. Now I have to like, I have to wait. You know, I have to way to watch in company and look the pace is going to be slowed a little bit but maybe that's for the best maybe it's going to parcel out at a more like healthy interval we can get some check

1:30:01Joanna Robinson:ins for the people who want to hear totally um i will just say uh someone we haven't talked about uh yet who is very important to me is hurley uh one of my favorite characters of all time uh and uh may we all have disc man batteries that last longer than hurley's did and he goes out listening, I believe, to Damien Rice. I think that's the tune that takes him out. And shout out to literally at the moment when I was wondering, is this thing ever going to run out of battery is when it finally ran out of battery. So you know what? They timed it perfectly. It really did. All right. Well, that has been a season one check-in of Lost with Rob Mahoney.

1:30:37Joanna Robinson:That has been a battle star check-in, season one battle star check-in with Mallory Rubin, embarrassment of riches. Thank you so much, Mal, for coming on the show. We so appreciate you. Oh, always. we will be back i don't even want to say what the finale is yet because we haven't scheduled yet and i'm like worried let me say this to you both everybody knows it's i think very very clear well we'll see you know we'll see what happens from the clues that you guys have dropped i think everybody knows we'll see so i just don't want to say it in case it's finally our doogie howser md takes will will uh come up uh we'll be covering task of course on this feed slow horses is right around the corner very exciting um really exciting for that it excited for that thank you to donnie beach him on this episode uh donnie's the best and thank you to mali rubin for her guest star appearance thank you mal uh thank you to rob mahoney and uh we'll see you soon bye

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