‘The Gilded Age’ Season 3 Finale: The Best Season Yet!

28:46Yeah. Right, the reluctance. Yeah, the reluctant millionaire. Yeah, everybody's a striver. Everybody's either trying to hold on to what they have or gain something new. And Jack is like, I don't know if this is right for me. It's a great observation. You're totally right. It's like a very different energy than what we've seen so far. And I think it's like a rich text to mine. So I'm curious to see how like people who have a history with him respond to him suddenly being in their circles. Like at what point does that shift from, you know, the old Jon Snow, I don't want it into like actually. I don't want it.

29:20Guess what? Being rich is great. It will break my heart if it changes him. But we can't rule it out as a possibility. Yeah, I know. And that gets back to I think what you're very astute and correct. one of your opening notes, like, it's not necessarily, I mean, tragic, sad things happen on the Gilded Age. But it is a show, I think, on like a kind of core level where we expect things to work out for our characters. As long as it's not a horse and buggy. I still have a lot of questions about... My man went flying. The angles, because like the prior shot, there's no, there is no carriage behind John Adams that is moving with the force that would be necessary to do what happened there.

30:02especially with all of those apples that had to have been carried very puzzling very puzzling anyway thrilled for thrilled for our guy jack i'm curious to see what he invents next obviously he's already started sketching so you know i hope that he continues to develop uh uh not only uh uh you know an appetite for the finer things in life i think i'm more interested and i don't want to heel turn for jack but i am like i want to see him engaged with society and then like figure out what that means for him. But I would like him to keep inventing and just become this great defining mind of the time.

30:40That would be so cool to watch and see. I don't want him to be like, I got rich once I'm done. And that doesn't seem likely because that's not his relationship to it. It wasn't about the payday. It's about the actual impulse to improve people's daily routines. So curious to see what our guy Jack does next. We love you, Clock Twink. We do. All right. how about we talk about miss peggy scott yes dr kirkland savior of of one george russell man which of course means that we will also be discussing uh all of their families yes yes um i i will pause it to you now and there are a lot of characters in the gilded age that i really like really like and really want to see be happy.

31:28I don't know that anyone deserves to be happy more than Peggy, right? Correct. So this was just like wonderful to see William defy his mother. Obviously he had gained his father's support, but defy his mother and walk into that ball and spin Peggy around and then propose. Rooting for them, happy for them. You mentioned at the top just the number of storylines this season that oriented in some way around mothers and daughters, fathers and sons, parents and children, just generational divides and the idea of what you are pushing your children toward or what you are supporting them in pursuing. That was really interesting to track across the season.

32:17Where were those parallels and where were those distinctions. And I think like in some ways, like the hero of the season is, is Mrs. Scott is Peggy's mom. Because like, even though, you know, Bertha is my favorite character. Bertha and George are my favorite characters on the show. Yeah. With respect to, to, to Jack and Agnes, who is also great. They're all great. I mean, you just named my Mount Rushmore. They're all fucking great. I know. They're the best. Um, you know, there's like, obviously we'll talk more about the Russells in the state of that family, but there is genuinely a reason, despite where Gladys and Hector find themselves currently, there is a reason why every member of Bertha's family at some point this season was like, you don't care about me at all.

33:03And that's not the only family dynamic that we saw unfold that way. And so to have Peggy's family just continue to not only directly to her through their words and their actions and her mother say to her like you you're worth it like you deserve to be happy you don't have anything to be ashamed of come out and live your life and be with us tonight and if he's gonna make this decision then he didn't deserve you in the first place yeah but then to also say that to other people like the showdown between the moms between Peggy's mom and William's mom was just so satisfying to watch. Really, really thrilled for Peggy, and I hope that they're happy moving forward.

33:47And I think William is just incredibly handsome, so I'll note that as well. Incredibly handsome man. And I thought that the way that they shot that final scene with the ball, first of all, how it's going back and forth with the Russell ball at the same time was just absolutely stunning. And the fact that, you know, they let her dress like cinderella right it's this like pink sparkly ball gown and it's all lit by candlelight because that was one of the distinctions between the russells yes have so much money and stature and influence that they can have their display of illumination in the home so they actually got to light that scene as though it was lit by actual light um where like only a couple seasons removed from like the astonishment society-wide of a light bulb being turned on so So like that is, you know, we see that and we're like, oh yeah, like they've got some nice like lights in the backyard.

34:41And a lot of people have those. No, like that is like there's what that signifies about what they are able to do is supreme. I thought that was like a nice little touch actually about just a season over season kind of like tracking of an element of society that like was present now and had entered people's lives, but was still so exceedingly rare at that scale. and is not present at, even though this is a ball of elite black society in Newport, they are lit by candlelight. Of course, candlelight is absolutely visually stunning. And so I just thought that the, it actually looked even more beautiful in some ways.

35:16And it just that like glowing light and he gets down on one knee and it does feel like total Cinderella story. I say all this to preface, all I wish for her is happiness. Mel, I have to say to you that I think that guy is a dud. Tell me. You're not a William fan. Tell me why. The heel turn of saying to her that their relationship is untenable. And then like he's sad about it. That was bad. And then his dad talks to him a little bit. And then he just walks in and he's like, just kidding. I know that I left you brokenhearted on his staircase. That was bad. 14 hours ago or something. But I thought about it and I changed my mind.

35:58I just, I'm not. Okay. I know that I'm supposed to like this man. Yeah. But I don't trust him, Mal. Okay. Even if he can do his four stitches. Beautiful stitch work. Cotton and all, like, left inside of the wound. I still have questions. I don't know. I'm not a doctor. Listen, it's a completely fair point. Here's my, it's not, I'm not going to try to make a counter argument because you're right, undeniably. I will provide additional considerations and then we'll see if we can, we can get to a shared, a shared space here. I would say that I agree that the framing of like, I think this, is it possible that the situation is just untenable?

36:43There's no path forward was less than ideal. Also being like, I need to just go take a walk. Um, you're just, I'm going to leave you in absolute despair. Not the best. Um, You know, perhaps when Peggy offered up the handkerchief, you could have been like, hang on to it. Yeah, we'll talk again. I'm going to keep thinking. Yeah, I'm going to keep thinking. I'm going to keep reflecting and we'll like follow up, you know? Let's circle back by EOD, Pegs. Oh, that would have been great. These are fair notes. I think that like ultimately, it feels inside of everything that the show has taught us true and realistic that like there would have to be a period of reflection and like a moment where breaking through of whatever your family tells you is right is like part of your journey and your arc and like a thing that has to happen.

37:50Now, is there a way that our dear William could have done that without leaving Peggy in a state of just abject despondence? It's entirely possible that the answer to that is yes. After when they talked in the park, he said, everybody has the past. All that matters is the president and the future. He didn't really think that through. He didn't really mean that. Well, I think ultimately he meant it and embraced it. But when faced with a challenge to your own contention, isn't it human to backslide a little bit? You know, to wonder if you actually have the courage to move forward. I thought that the, like, inside of the finale, the idea that William is, like, because of everything that has happened with George and with the Russells being praised for his courage.

38:40and then having to like face this other aspect of his life where he's like, will I have the courage to basically say, I love this person and I want to spend my life with Peggy and like, I don't actually give a shit what anybody else thinks about her or thus us, whether that person is my own mother or our friends in Philadelphia or anyone else. But like the idea that you would take a beat to like think about what that meant given the state of society at the time and the way that people thought about anything that was like outside of a social norm or the stain of scandal. Obviously for us as viewers, we're like what happened to Peggy and what Peggy went through was so deeply horrific and tragic that the idea of anybody else labeling it as like a scandal or a sin is like, that is a reflection on them, not on Peggy.

39:28And so like, if that was where William had landed, then of course I would have been, I would have, I would have had nothing but horrible things to say about him. But I think the fact that he had to like acknowledge that other people would think that and then decide that that wouldn't stop him was actually interesting to watch. All fair points. My suspicions were up from the moment that he didn't tell Peggy that he hadn't told his mother what the suffrage meeting was about. I'm just like, this man, he can't stand up to his mom. He does ultimately. but I'm not entirely convinced that's not going to be an issue in the future and this is a woman who has big ambitions you know is this a man who is able to set aside or control his instinctual reactions of oh well don't rock the boat or don't do this because I just want to you know I want to preserve this sort of sense of not challenging certain types of status quo, which Peggy is all about.

40:34I just, I'm curious to see where that goes. I am thrilled that she got what I know she feels is a very happy ending to the season. Peggy, the absolute best. Okay. Slightly less romantic proposal.

40:55It's just ever so slightly. Ever so slightly. Ever so slightly, yeah. Dear darling Gladys, little Gladys Russell, and the Duke of Buckingham. Yep. Good old Hector. We know based on the end of season two, even just going into this season, we know that, Gladys, your mom is up to something. She is hatching plans. A huge sort of piece of historical inspiration. You know, Bertha Russell is pretty, not terribly loosely, based on Alva Vanderbilt, whose daughter, Consuelo Vanderbilt, also cried as she walked down the aisle to marry the Duke of Manchester, which was one of the first Dollar Princess's stories in this time period.

41:43And we see Gladys running away from home, begging her father to appeal to her mother, but then ultimately deciding to go through with it only to go over and with a little bit of help from Bertha who comes to the rescue then decide she likes England listen here's my take on this we'll get into some of the nuance Gladys had sex on a boat and then got to move into a castle in England and was like this is great and I have no notes that's where I am with this I will. Yeah, of course. Okay. When you put it that way, it makes a little bit of sense to me. That scene after their wedding when they're on the boat, I found horrifying.

42:30It was actually, I was like, all jokes aside, genuinely, I was like kind of nervous and then very relieved that it didn't end up in an incredibly dark place. But the fact that like, okay, this is again, this plot line is sort of emblematic to me of the magic trick of the show, which is like completely gripping us, even though the outcome of certain plots is, I think, very rarely shocking. Like, I don't know about you, but I was, and I will say my relationship to the show is like I do occasionally try, like, I am interested certainly in learning about like the time period and historical facts. My relationship to learning about the historical comps, I think first of all, just the fact that the Russells are like clearly based on the Vanderbilts, but like ultimately composites of other historical figures as well and not a direct one-to-one has, it was a, for all, I'm sure there are a million reasons why they had to do that.

43:23But ultimately, one of the luxuries it affords them is that they don't have to strictly adhere to historical fact. They can change things while also being like, this is where we're taking our inspiration from. Even though multiple episodes were, in theory, plot-wise, oriented around the mystery, the suspense, the question of, will Gladys walk into that church and walk down the aisle and marry Hector, or will she decide to make a stand? I was like, there's only one, there's just simply only one thing that is going to happen here. And it is that Gladys is marrying the Duke. Like, it just, it literally didn't seem possible to me that anything else would happen on the show.

44:03Billy Carlton, I mean, talk about a sad sack who did not deserve to compete. Like, Billy Carlton, what a fucking loser. No one has ever needed to nut up more than Billy Carlton. Come on, Billy. Sack up, dude. The fact that Gladys ultimately ended up marrying Hector was, I tell it, just never in question. So on the one hand, the fact that multiple episodes are kind of teasing out that mystery is a little, almost like, it's kind of like, why? But on the other hand, the why is because it's not really about the plot outcome. It's about the character dynamics on the way to that inevitability. And so, like, seeing how Gladys and – what that meant for Gladys and Bertha, what it meant for Gladys and Larry, what it meant for, most crucially of all, ultimately, Bertha and George and just the entire Russell family unit was fascinating.

44:57And I really like, I think it's smart inside of this season to end in a place where Gladys has, despite undeniably not wanting to have, she did not want to do this in the first place. She did not love Hector. She did not want to marry him. That's like just indisputable fact. And she didn't want to leave home. She didn't want to live in this place she's never been. Yeah. She's like the life of the Duchess and this like a chokehold on some aspect of society that you think ensures like the future of our name is not interesting to me, basically. So I don't want to lose sight of that at all. However, I think ending the season with Gladys in a position of agency and embrace and saying, Hector and I kind of are into each other now.

45:46I don't feel like maybe my mother is the reason why I wound up in this circumstance in the first place, but I don't feel like she's my puppeteer day-to-day right now. Similarly, Sarah, great stuff with the brother-sister dynamic. Incredible. I wish we'd actually gotten more of that. Hector has also kind of broken free of that control. They are like at least attempting to be the arbiters of their own lives and fates. Well, or Hector. I mean, Hector comes across to me as a character who wants someone to be mommy. Now, right. Now Gladys is managing him ultimately. Yes, definitely. But we'll see where that goes.

46:25Right. It's a very rich text to play with. A lot of riding crops hanging around those old English country piles. It's just so many. So many. But, like, the fact that, like, ultimately, you could say, just at the most kind of, like, reductive basic level, it, like, worked out for Gladys, right? And it still did not work out for the family. Like, it's not like we got to a place where George says, in response, Bertha literally does say, look, she's not unhappy. And is expecting George to be like, you're right, you were right the whole time. you're the best. I shouldn't have doubted you. I don't know why I did.

47:01What decision do you want to make for the rest of us next? That's not what happened. And I thought that was actually fascinating that it didn't, it wasn't that George walked away and that Larry went back to the club because Gladys came back and was like, I'm miserable. How did you do this to me? It's that the fact that her, her happiness was ultimately like not, it didn't, it didn't erase for them everything that Bertha had done to just engineer these outcomes for their lives that they did not want. Similarly, Bertha is like, Marion, I see your true spirit. I see your heart. You got on that table.

47:34The cuffs of your dress are soaked in my husband's blood. You're a real one. You are a real one. And now I see what Larry sees in you. I saw it like the way she put it, like I saw him through your eyes for the first time. I will now welcome you into our family, I will stop trying to thwart my own son's happiness because I think you're inferior. You're not going to advance our family cause. And it doesn't matter. It's too late. And that felt like, I thought, a really like dramatically interesting choice. I know I'm jumping ahead now to the family that we're not really fully talking about, but like, it's all connected.

48:06We're always talking about the Russells. Always. There are these different moments where you see, you know, Gladys appealing to her father in a way where she has internalized this, okay, no one can really stop mother when there's something that she wants, but this is still the head of the household. This is still the man in the relationship. Maybe I can get something done here. Maybe this is a way for me to get what I want. And then it doesn't work out, but then there is this sense of sort of lost agency, which seems like the thing that the men in particular can't forgive. You made me do this thing that I maybe now feel like I didn't want to do.

48:49Maybe I felt like I didn't want to do it in the moment, but maybe now I'm just sort of deciding that I didn't want to, even though I went through with it. It mirrors how he's acting in business where there are these things that maybe aren't good ideas, but George has such a sense of self that's caught up in, I can do whatever I want. Nobody can say no to me. Nothing. The world, the circumstances of business and copper mines and other railroads that other people own, like, you cannot stop me if I want to do something. And the fact that she got in, that she proved that wrong in a sense is the one thing that he can't forgive.

49:27Whereas I think Gladys, as a woman in this world, understands it and is coming to understand it, especially now that she is experiencing a growth of agency only within that type of system herself, where she can find that common ground ultimately with her mother, even if her parents can't find it together, at least as we end the season. So I thought that was really compelling, even if the about the turn with now Hector and I get along was maybe a little clunky. It's, you know, tried and true, tried and true move in stories. You know, the old. The old Catelyn, Rob, like it's it's built stronger.

50:17It lasts longer. Just go with the arranged marriage. Like you don't have to marry for love. I think the contrast in the family to like, you know, and George obviously invokes this a few times, like we were a love match and then Bertha saying, but we were also like well matched was so interesting across the season. You're identifying something that I think is really smart and really right that, you know, on a purely like emotional level when we watch George leave and tell Bertha that he's leaving and say when she once again invokes that like ambition, ruthless ambition is a shared trait, is a shared pursuit.

51:02And he repositions it and says, yeah, but like I do that in business, not to the people I love. And ultimately that is like the great indictment, right? Is that she doesn't see a distinction. Like the people that she loves are not necessarily just like the priority isn't their happiness, their wellbeing. but he's I think he mean I do think he meant that but I think you're right that like there's something else fueling that which is like wait you like handled me and I let you and I don't like the way that like I don't like when anybody handles me even yeah I think he thinks he meant it but he does like part of the you know often we hear George be a bit of the voice of reason to Bertha.

51:46But part of, I think, a little bit of a twist at the end is that I think he's lying to himself a little bit. He leans on her to use her social power to help him in business when he thinks it's going to work. To invite what's-his-face over for dinner and charm him, but then he's upset with how charming his wife is being and the fact that this guy is, you know, maybe getting a little bit flirtatious. Incredible sequence. it's like good stuff really good stuff like you like made me a cock at my own table it's just iconic great great stuff okay again like not to be horny on main i need those two to get it on again like i know it was it was all we had i know i know and it was such a wonderful i mean genuinely like a of course it's like uh i you say you don't want to be horny on me and that's a part of the part of the brand over here but like it actually was i think in part because so many of the relationships on the show are so like transactional that to see like their intimacy was really remarkable over the early seasons of the show because it was like no these people like they're hot for each other yeah they want to fuck like they're into each other they love each other they love each other they've there are partners in a number of respects like they have a genuine in actual still sincere attraction and draw to each other.

53:13So to, yeah, to put that into, for that to be imperiled by all of the other, like chipping away at the buttresses of their relationship. And imperiled and by him, right? Because she was, she tried to make it happen. I'm tired. I'm going to bed. I've been shot. I'm going to bed. I'm high on opium. I'm going to bed. That had been shot then. Yeah, that's always a new excuse. Always an excuse with that George Russell. I'm worried about my railroads. My choo-choo train isn't going to go across the country, and I'm upset. Oh, dear George. I love him. I am really interested to see what happens with just how close Gladys and the Duke do become.

54:04If we've established that actually this arranged marriage might work out, how well is it going to work out? Is she going to take over the property and start interacting with the townspeople and the farmers and, you know, really become— is she going to become a sort of version of her mother but in this bucolic English nobility context? I don't quite know how far that's going to go. does that mean that Gladys is sort of out of sight out of mind for a lot of what's happening back in New York or will they continue to find ways to keep her being in the mix and keep them both being in the mix yeah like I I'm interested in that too I obviously I very much did not want George to die and I did not think it likely that he would um but I will say not only because the penultimate episode ends with him being shot.

54:58Obviously, we had to at least consider the possibility. And then I thought inside... I mean, it's at very close range. Very close range. Like, it's honestly kind of an indictment of whoever Clay or whomever it was who hired this assassin got to do it. Like, not a very good shot. Yeah, he had one job. Although I guess the guns weren't very accurate. And he killed the other guy, like the Clay replacement, right? So that's tough for... Good old Brinkley. um but like both between episode seven and eight and then i will say inside of episode eight because when george is better and then we get like the kind of close-up on the on the you know he's he's downing his his opium before the party and i was like okay i paused and i said to i turned to adam and i was like i think george is gonna die like with 10 minutes left of the episode and i'm the reason i'm bringing this up in the gladys section is because like it and and ultimately i think then it became clear that the real setup for what was happening was Bertha's focus on bringing divorced women back into society.

55:57That's really priming us for the, you know, destruction of the Russell marriage. But I was like, okay, wait. And now I think the closeup was just like, maybe he becomes like addicted and next season and starts to make mistakes. And then does he have an affair? And then is that the grounds for divorce? I don't know. My mind started racing, But with a few minutes left in the episode, I was like, what if this is like, what if his return to form here is false hope? And then he just like collapses and dies on the dance floor. And the reason that we had multiple episodes of basically Larry being like, actually, are you the boy genius?

56:32Like, do you have the business mind? Big brain. Look at the big brain on this one. And Gladys moving into his son. It's like, you know, Gladys is then like, I mean, she's a literal duchess, is basically the next generation of the Russells being the ones to lead the business and society. Like, was that what we were being primed for? Now, that can happen, I guess, to a degree without George Russell dying. But, like, obviously, as long as they're all still alive and going forward, I think Bertha's position, even amid the, like, gossip mongers and whispers, is preserved in a way that doesn't necessarily, like, require Gladys to sustain.

57:15But that was going through my mind as, like, a possibility. Like, would Gladys suddenly be the one and Bertha is basically, like, reliant on her daughter to secure her position in society? Not what happened, so it doesn't really matter. That's very interesting, though, because I did not have the reaction of I felt like once he'd been revived on the table, we were good. Even though I was more nervous than you were, you convinced me. We had a conversation last week where you convinced me that basically too hot to die theory was at play for Mr. George Russell. And I do think that that has been borne out.

57:51He's just very, it's a very powerful and important thing. I get Tina Brown's sub stack and who knows Julian Fellows and just, I think, has a real affinity for shows like this period, shows like this, this time of this period in history and the interactions between the British and the Americans particularly. particularly. And I clicked on a post that came in the newsletter this morning and it was about, you know, the Gilded Age. And really it was, it was just an excuse for Tina to write, you know, I find this man incredibly visually appealing. Same, Tina. Same. She was like, like this interest has taken hold of me enough that I am privy to the full set of like body tattoos that Morgan Spector.

58:48I would like to once again say same. Has and shows on his Instagram. And then there were a few. Very familiar. There were a few screenshots of Instagram posts that were embedded in the newsletter. And there were two credits of different accounts. And one was, I think, his account. And then the other handle was at epluribusyourmom. That's him. That's his handle. Yes. That's his Instagram, which I follow closely. That's his handle. Check it out.

59:26That is so funny. Why? I don't know. I would just say welcome it into your life. A king among men. That's really fabulous. I didn't even consider that as a possibility. That's him. Yep. Oh, that's really wonderful stuff. All very important stuff. George Russell is just, you know, he's great. He is one of the best beards that we've seen on television in a long time. Wonderful stuff. All of this is to say I'm less worried about him dying. I would say that my concern levels on the Russell family business are still up there. Oh, interesting. Okay. Despite, I know we found a lot of copper in the mines.

1:00:11I know we found so much copper because Larry is big brain business son who checked the mines again, which is great. Not sure if you've heard. Never. It's in Boston, not Boston, actually Cambridge. And that's great. I am a little like... J.P. Morgan seemed real nervous. Real red in the face that J.P. Morgan. A situation in which something about the children's standing has to represent something for Bertha Russell doesn't seem crazy to me. Yeah, I think like they've now been positioned to take the story in that direction, certainly. I won't be surprised at some point if the Russell Railroad pursuits hit a snag that they can't somehow push beyond.

1:01:03But I didn't think that was likely this season just because, again, I feel like the story that we're watching at least right now, and at a certain point this should actually change in order to maintain new dramatic tension, but the story that we're watching right now is not like the upstarts who couldn't hang. It's the actual defining force of this period of history. And that feels more lasting than the span of time that we've spent with them. will they have to compromise certain things in order to sustain that? I think undeniably, are they going to be willing to? Almost certainly. To your point, is the entwinement of their social standing

1:01:48and welcoming people into their home and what the nature of those relationships looks like going to be something that they have to continue to, like to what level do they need to compromise the sanctity of like the holy inner space in order to basically preserve the business and how does that make them feel? I think we'll keep watching all of that. But I wasn't like, Clay's gonna beat George Russell. That just seemed to me like impossible. I mean, this idiot who didn't check the mines a second time. Dipshit. Could never happen. Dipshit. Although I will say not George's finest moment of big business braining.

1:02:25He's slipping a little. To be like, I'm gonna angrily fire this man who knows all my secrets at a time when my business is incredibly vulnerable, particularly in ways where if people found out about our bottom line, it would be bad. You just need to kill him. If you're George, you just simply you have to kill Clay. Well, it sounds like he's willing to do that because he told the investigator to be as rough as possible. Is there any world in which it wasn't Clay? Not on this show. Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think. It couldn't be the lady's maid who is selling gossip to the papers. Interesting.

1:03:04That was another one where it's like, okay, she seemed clearly like the candidate. But then I was like, wait, will they really have Bertha's lady's maid be involved in some sort of betrayal of the family again? Well, then the answer was yes. It's really hard to find a good lady's maid. Apparently. That's why it was such an indignity when they fired Gladys's. It's true. Come on. People don't grow on trees. So I think we should, when we wrap up, I think there are two real meaty, where's this going to go? Questions and sort of groups of people, which have to do with the parts of society and the state of the status of divorced women in society in these ways where the world may be changing.

1:03:51and then what happens with the Russells and how those two things interact with each other. I think we should close on those things. Okay. Before we do, we're just going to check in with two more sets of people. One is our guy, Oscar. Wonderful. Who has rebuilt himself with the help of John Adams, his friend who he wishes was more, only to see him tragically die in a streetcar horse accident. Rogue carriage, yeah. Yep. Very tough. So let's just break this down for a second. How fast do you think that horse and carriage was going? Faster than a horse and carriage possibly could, given the amount of open space in that particular area.

1:04:38That's the thing. It has to have been, for it to truly have caught him by surprise like that, don't you think it has to have at least been like 25 miles an hour? um it's entirely possible i'll defer to your wisdom as somebody's crunching a lot of combine tape here that's really fast that's fast i think i think that john adams certainly it's like i feel like there was more time to jump out of the way you know like even with the carriage moving quite quickly there's got to be like a little bit of a oh my god there's a carriage moving really quickly down the street everybody move um i think uh there's that i think also like while it hit him while moving very quickly and hit him straight on uh seemed to me like he should have honestly been pretty pretty pretty much okay after this like i mean maybe if he wasn't it would have been a trampling situation right that's the thing is it sent him flying yes you know a concussion certainly for perhaps a rib contusion or two uh even like a broken coccyx yes yes but But instant death was not necessarily what I anticipated based on that impact.

1:05:49Obviously, this is very sad, you know, to have watched Oscar and John in the earlier seasons, like, you know, be in love and in a sexual and romantic relationship with each other that, of course, they had to keep secret at this period in history. and to I thought that the sequence where Oscar you know after meeting with John's sister and her um you know not only like obviously like the the bequest but saying to him like I I know who you are to him um and I accepted that about him and you and love my brother and wanted him to be happy and you made him happy was and then to watch Oscar go back to his own family and his home and break down and like not be able to and to watch him on the edge right almost like yeah like saying to his mother like do you really want me to tell you like you know but do you really want me to say it yeah was um and he was just obviously just distraught and then that scene between marion and oscar after where she went to his room to comfort him and and in essence said, I'm like a little sheltered and a little naive, but I think I understand.

1:07:04And I don't, I can't say I understand completely, but I think I know, and I love you, and I'm here for you. And his, you know, to see the way that that kind of pulled him back into the world and himself was, you know, obviously Marion is one of the most open-hearted and like generous of spirit characters on the show. And so I'm certainly not surprised that she was the one to be there for Oscar in that way. You know, to see Oscar go into, like, to have confronted all of these different hardships from the end of season two through basically the end of season three, and then see Mrs. Winterton know that she her husband has died this, her way into wealth and society, he's gone.

1:07:56And Oscar's like, well here's somebody who i can just make an honest only honest to us a lie to everybody else basically like i can we can hatch a con and make like a business arrangement with you have your cottage i have my cottage we can live our own lives and then in the city we will be a pair and we will work our way together with your money and my basically ability to like operate my connections, my know-how, we will become a true power couple. High on my list of things I'm most excited to watch in season four. I think Oscar's great. He's like, the performance is great. A great blend of more tender moments and plot lines.

1:08:44And just like, he's got the kind of acerbic wit and the great comedy that obviously is in line with his mother, Agnes. So to see this this plot that they have hatched in season four in full will be very, very interesting to watch. I'm really looking forward to this one. Really good stuff. I'm interested to see it unfold in particular because I don't really believe that all Mrs. Winterton wants is to hang out in a nice country house and rarely be seen other than in the company of her new husband and live a quiet life that doesn't cause any, that doesn't ruffle any feathers. That has not been historically true.

1:09:23of Mrs. Winterton? No, certainly not. She tried to fuck George Russell in case anyone has forgotten. I did enjoy when she, because of course Oscar secures her this invite to Bertha's ball and I did enjoy it. Still thinking about E. Pluribus, your mom. I know, it's great. I really did like when she was like, maybe we'll be friends. And Bertha's like, well, I don't think that's likely. You know, you did crawl naked into my husband's bed and try to fuck him. You tried some stuff. You tried some stuff with the mister and that's just sort of, I don't think that's likely. We're at an impasse, but welcome to the ball.

1:09:55Go look at the lights display. Okay. Dear Marion and dear Larry, I would say the quintessential example of two main characters for whom nothing happened. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're in love. They're obviously going to propose. There's going to be a proposal in some way. They beat around the bush for a little while. Then they do it. And then Larry has to go to Arizona and he does lie. He lies. He says he's going to Delmonico's. He goes to a house of ill repute. Marion's very upset. And then this is what I feel we need to talk about with these two. Okay. She writes a letter with no explanation of why she's upset.

1:10:36Absolutely baffling. And then delivers it across the street only to have it sit there with church for a month. Crazy. my girl this is like this is like one of the great examples of like this show just actually couldn't happen in the cell phone era like it just wouldn't nothing that happens on the show no could happen currently you just text someone i mean also jack would never have made the clock because he would just be like playing angry birds it's true it's true what if jack but would jack be like i don't know would he be some sort of like tech overlord that's sort of upsetting to think about actually.

1:11:17Memes. Meme king. Maybe. Who do you think was like, obviously they both have some culpability here, but who did you ultimately find yourself kind of like siding with? It wasn't obviously ever positioned as a like hyper combative, you need to choose a side, but like, you know, they do ultimately end up in this position in the last couple episodes of like, a little bit of like a blame carousel, right? Right. I'm mad I'm mad at you because you lied. I'm mad at you because you don't trust me and you only trusted Jack. Yeah. And everyone's making good points, but also like everyone's sort of behaving a little poorly.

1:11:54And like, did you find yourself wanting to shake one of them out of it more than the other? Or did you think that that balance was like appropriately struck? I was not upset with Marion for being upset. I wanted to shake Marion out of writing letter with no explanation delivering across the street. That's when I was like, this is crazy. You can't act like this. Larry, I do feel like he got questioned one time and then he got really upset. I will say, I hate to be regressive in this way. I was a little bit like, look, Marion, I think this is a good guy ultimately. And, you know, Gladdy across the way just got shipped off to the UK.

1:12:39Yeah, okay. Where they have terrible food and bad lighting. You're coming out firmly on team. Let your fiance go to the whorehouse and don't worry about it. Just like a little bit of whorehouse. Like a little bit of whorehouse. I think it's a sign of the times. I'm sorry. I'm. Okay, but. But. I hope I'm allowed at the next suffrage meeting.

1:13:03I just. I think you're making a bit of a big deal about this, Marion. All right. Let's tease this out a little bit. Because I don't actually like totally disagree. I think this would be just like a normal place for a young bro like Larry Russell to go hang with his dudes. He did tell her that he was, as you just noted, a very specific lie. He wasn't just like, I'm hanging out in my palace tonight. Also, we should say, I mean, anyone who's listening to this has watched the season and knows this, but let's just state it for the record. this was the night this was the night they got engaged yes that's a bad look that's definitely a bad look they had gotten engaged and she's like let's go celebrate with our families and he says I can't I'm going to Delmonico's I gotta go to Delmonico's with the boys because of the clock right and what he meant was I am going to a house of ill repute as you have said and I'm not gonna tell you because even though I do not intend to to fraternize with any ladies of the night, I don't think that you'll like it.

1:14:14And thus, I will not share that information with you, which is, of course, exactly the thing that he is accusing her of later, which is like, well, I, you know, I didn't, the facts don't really seem to matter. You don't trust me. Like, they're kind of holding the same thing against each other, which I guess feels actually, despite the very odd nature of this particular plot line and how of the moment it is, kind of true to life. It's like, well, you know, I do trust you, but like, I don't actually, because I have trust issues and it's not really about you. It's about me, but also like you lied to me, but like, yeah, all of that feels like very like relationship 101 stuff.

1:14:54I think that Larry lying and not thinking that Marion would be able to hang with the truth was, was a mistake. I think that Marion writing a letter with no details was, as you have noted, a mistake. I think that the, that Marion not here, not giving him an opportunity to explain and then not trusting him felt very like, again, relatable and normal to me. I think Larry then being like, you believed Jack, but not me. I feel like that is a bad indicator maybe about our foundation. Like every time we run into a problem, is that just a wrap because you don't trust me or you don't trust us to communicate about it.

1:15:33I thought those were good notes, poorly dispensed and shared. Yeah. I mean, also she did believe, she believed Jack because Jack hadn't lied in the first place. I don't know that that's necessarily an indication of like Marion thinks of Larry as a fundamentally unreliable partner. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, Larry's lived a life. Larry had a passionate, torrid love affair with an older woman. Larry has friends and is a young, rich man who goes out with other young, rich men and socializes. And I think Marion must know that, but something about being confronted with him withholding from her felt like a canary in the coal mine that she wasn't like almost able to like attempt to process.

1:16:31And you know what? I like these two. I'm hoping it works out. And I think given what we know about the Gilded Age in general, I think we've been taught to expect that it will. I think so. But Larry is someone who we often see behaving kind of nobly, but in ways where he is able to help change Jack's life, even though Jack did most of that himself. but he could do some facilitating and he is more than willing to do that for the footman because he does know his own stature and he does know his own power and he knows that there are very few consequences in this world for him. We don't see Larry in a lot of situations where he's being pushed or tested or insulted or just questioned generally.

1:17:29And I think it's fair to say that what we know of this character, even though we often see it in very positive lights, would suggest that this is a person who has some level of entitlement. No question. And how could he not? He's like the crown prince of the hot shot, of 61st Street. Yeah. And I think that's, it's a great point because like, you're right. We think of Larry as like a very, like a kind of like a little bit of a prince charming character. You know, the fact that he is like very open. Not only is he always supporting, he's always supporting his sister. You know, he wants her to be able to do what she wants and, like, marry for love.

1:18:04He, the things that maybe other people would find, like, less than about Mary, and he celebrates. Like, look at how she's out there teaching and doing what she believes in. And isn't that amazing? He, you know, like, is an open-hearted and ultimately a kind of, like, sweet guy. But, and to your point from earlier, like, you could say all these things about George, right? George is like, I want my daughter to be happy. They're very, very, very similar characters. Chip off the old block. Yeah, wow. Isn't it kind of amazing in some ways that these incredibly, incredibly rich, powerful, handsome, established people would be like, I want my sister slash daughter to have what she wants.

1:18:49Whoa! Like, how noble, how bold, how brave. But like they are both and it's not I'm not saying even that they're necessarily wrong to respond to like the particular circumstances in this way, but they have a propensity to sulk the Russell boys. No question. Right. They have a they have a tendency to say like you wounded something about how I view myself and thus I don't know if I can move forward with you at all. They both have a little bit of take my ball and my bat and go home. Yeah. In them. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And now it seems like Larry has gotten over that. You know, he and Marion end in a place of, okay, the engagement is not back on, but we're back on.

1:19:36And she has been welcomed into the family because of her heroics after the shooting and therefore one obstacle in their relationship has been removed. So things I think ultimately look pretty bright. But I do agree with you that there is a seed of... You know, we don't, it feels like how could we go down the path of Marion's heart being broken and disappointed again? But there are some things, there are some lingering questions about is this really the right match? Despite the fact that they do seem to be very in love. I think it would be against the general spirit of the show if this ended in tragedy.

1:20:14I agree. And I think also, like, it's time for something new for Marion. three seasons in a row of like the will this be my love match not working out or at least hitting some sort of stumbling block. And then she gets a new like part-time job and Agnes is upset about it and Ada's like, I think it's great that she... Exactly. And then she like shows up to support Peggy. Somebody else in her life who needs her to be standing there next to her. Very nice girl. We'll clearly come to your event. Exactly. Exactly. Even if she doesn't want to, she'll show up at the end. But like it's time for something else And so whether I don't think that Marion or any other character on the show like needs to be in a romantic relationship in order for their storyline to move forward.

1:20:53But it would be I just think four seasons of like, is Marion going to be able to find happiness and trust with this person would be like almost unbelievable to me. I guess I can't totally rule it out, but I think it's time for Marion to be like settled in and then figure out what is next for her. We've saved, I think, the most juicy for last. And I think what we need to talk about here are the two things that feel the most energetic moving into season four and also the least resolved. And one is the state of society itself. It is the position of Mrs. Astor. as yet again, she has relinquished this piece of stature to Mrs.

1:21:38Russell. And it is, as a function of that in some ways, the societal mores that we know to be true but changing of this society as it is. Because we end with this, it's not quite the end of the season, but the ultimate event of the season is, are these balls and is the Russell ball where Bertha Russell makes this huge statement by inviting Charlotte Drayton and the still Mrs. Aurora Fane, but probably not for very long. That guy sucks. Tough. And lifting the ban on divorced women at this event. Which I found, like, again, she's a woman who contains multitudes. We see her shipping her daughter off to be the duchess and not caring about putting her daughter into an arranged marriage or not thinking that her daughter could aspire to a love match.

1:22:44And then at the same time, and I think, and this is a question that I am curious what you think about. I never felt like she was making choices out of a, hey, man, my marriage isn't looking too hot right now. This could be me someday. I never felt like that's what it was. I felt like she's friends with Aurora Fain. She is someone who's not afraid to make a statement. And this was just something that Bertha Russell was interested in doing. Did you think it went anywhere beyond that or had a relationship between her issues with George? Inside of Bertha's mind at this moment in time, consciously, no.

1:23:24For the story, yes. Okay. So, like, I, to me, everything that happens with Bertha and the state of divorced women in society is, like, this is Bertha at her best. Because, and the character deployed the most effectively. I think that it is, well, I'm with you, I don't think she is sitting here right now. Because she is astonished when George leaves. The fact that George is at the club and Larry's at the club and they've been going and she's getting a lot of like stern rebukes from husband and son alike about how she has conducted herself and the lack of care she has shown for those closest to her.

1:24:01It's not like she doesn't understand that she has actually really hurt them and that they are unhappy with how she has behaved. I don't think she considers it possible. And she's like, there are whispers. We're in the book. We need to put on a brave face and like we need to all stand there together at the ball. so that we can, the only way to quiet the rumors is with the truth. And so let's show them how happy we are. Um, obviously she understands that like the state of their marriage is fodder in society. It's not like she's oblivious to that fact. However, I don't think that she considers it possible that their marriage from George's perspective or anyone inside of their household is beyond repair.

1:24:38So her absolute astonishment at the end of the finale was like, I thought sincere. um all that so i agree with you i don't think that she's like well in the event that george leaves me and our marriage falls apart again it's like very clearly cannot i'm not a historical i am a child of divorce and an enthusiast of divorced movie movies about children of divorce but i i can't say i'm a scholar about where we are intended uh you know i'm going based on just the canon of the show where it's like established multiple times in the season that the grounds for divorce is adultery and like that has not happened yet inside of this marriage right so you know for various reasons i don't think that bertha's like waiting for um george to serve papers but i do think that this is simultaneously her genuinely thinking that this is like the right thing to do to invite aurora to invite charlotte to not have these women who had a thing happen in their marriage, like then be shunned from all aspects of society and their lives to be completely defined by what happened inside of their marriage.

1:25:52I think she believes that that is not right or fair. And so there's like a beating heart inside of Bertha there. You know, she took some hits over the course of the season, but then you see her do that. And then you see her not blink when George has been shot and somebody says, there's a doctor across the street, but he's black. And she's like, I don't care, why would that matter? Exactly. So you see Bertha's open heart. You see her progressive spirit. You see, but then I think it's like, it's very clearly paired, even though the personal, what will this mean for me in the future is maybe not the active part of her thinking, like guiding her thinking.

1:26:35I do think she's like still it's a play to make, right? Because like ultimately what it does is like further entrench her as the person who gets to decide the state of play. It makes society in the image that she chooses to make it. Like she gets to be the one who says it's time we moved beyond this. I think that everybody needs to change. And I have said that. And so now everybody will. And Mrs. Astor, the person who used to decide that, has to bend to my will. Now, the fact that Mrs. Astor's daughter is one of the two principal figures who represents this change, and Mrs. Astor is so swept up in the old ways that she is willing to cast her own daughter out forever, block her from being welcome in these halls, is, like, so horrible to see.

1:27:26And so Bertha is like almost like heroic in contrast to that, even though I do think there's a little bit of the calculus of like, and this is just one more way that I can beat her and win is like she didn't want this and I did. And then she had to walk into my ball anyway and say it was OK. I have to say, though objectively, Mrs. Aster choosing to show up to the ball is an indication of how far Bertha Russell has come and how much she does get to make the rules and Mrs. Aster is now following them. That moment when she whips off the coat and we're just full sternum, full jewels. Pretty good. And then she goes over to her daughter and says, your situation may be embarrassing, but you are not an embarrassment.

1:28:07You are my daughter. I was, that was fierce. I will say this. I thought the necklace was nice and the big speech to the daughter was a little fucking late. Yeah, sure. Fine, fine. Honestly. I'm not. I'm a mother of the year. No. Sternum of the year? Possibly so. That was a great. Just the throwing off the coat. It was very good. And the way Church was like, Mrs. Astor. Great stuff all around. I do think, though, that the show, even if Bertha's not like, I got to prepare for a divorce, the show is clearly doing that. Like, we don't know what will happen for the Russells and when, but this is, I think, undeniably the show saying that by Bertha being the engine, ultimately perhaps of her own preservation here, right?

1:28:53She is saying, and she is helping to ensure that women who are divorced still have a place in society. And thus, if she is at some point a woman who is divorced, her position will be maintained through her act of grace and charity on behalf of others. She can save herself. So whether she's actively thinking that right now or not, the show is, I think, clearly. Do you feel like in season four, somebody has to get divorced because of all of this setup? I will be very surprised if the Russells get divorced in season four. That to me feels like a season six thing. I don't know. It just feels too soon.

1:29:31But I am worried that George is going to be addicted to opium. But at the same time, it feels like there was so much setup. Yeah. Yeah. I think a season now formally separated. Because this was a season of strife and tension, but not actually a season, despite the nights at the club, of, like, formal separation. Like, George, the big end note of the season is George being like, I'm out. By the way, the Union Club, 69th Street. He's eight blocks north. Well, I mean, how fast is the carriage moving? You know? This is like an 1890s math problem. Exactly. I think that next season is a season where they're separated and perhaps season five could be a divorce.

1:30:12But I mean, you think it's possible it's next season? I don't know if it's them. I'm not sure if this show. Is one of them going to have an affair or is somebody going to say like you need to basically say you had an affair so that we could get divorced? I just don't know if this show could be the show that it is without Bertha and George as a unit of some kind. But I do feel like there's too much smoke for a divorce plotline for it not to actually happen. But you're even the candidates beyond... It doesn't seem like it's going to be Gladys and Hector. No, certainly not. and i mean i don't think it would be peggy and and no and doctor scared of my mommy um no and i think we kind of got the like you know with respect to aurora and charlotte like aurora has been around obviously from the the start of the show but like these aren't like central characters so i think to then do have another and maybe we'll have more people in that mold, but who are sort of like in the world of the character set of the show, but not like primary figures.

1:31:23I don't think there are too many primary figures other than the Russells who would make sense to do this without it then diluting if it happens to them. I would take the Charlotte Drayton plot point. Sure. I would have liked to see that duel. I know. That would have been great. It was fun to hear everybody else talk about it, though. Yeah. It's really, I mean, this is just the reason to. Great stuff when she's like, I'm just meant to. okay so I'm just meant to spend my life with like needlepoint by the fire and then just sass her like you have to learn how to like thread a needle that would require you learning how to thread a needle wonderful stuff all right Mal any other predictions for season four Jack and Bridget all systems go um hmm I guess my question with Oscar and Mrs.

1:32:08Winterton is like you know are we meant to be like rooting for them to win because Oscar is a character we love, but she's a villain. And Oscar doesn't quite want enough for his own happiness in some ways. He's willing to sort of take, you know, he never went the John Adams route of saying, you know, I may be an Adams, I may be incredibly eligible, I'm not going to get married, it's not true to who I am. And I don't think we hold that against Oscar, but I do think that we see it a little bit as him not accepting his full potential in some ways. And he wants the money, like just undeniably. So he's going for something that is like, there's a very naked drive in his pursuit.

1:32:57And like, yeah, Oscar's a character we root for, but maybe that impulse is something that we're meant to like indict, even though it makes, you know, you understand kind of why he would feel compelled to fill the vault again, basically, after everything that happened. So I'm fascinated to see what happens with Oscar. I don't, I like the idea of him being mischievous, certainly, but I don't want him to be like, to turn into like a villain. I would not be fond of that, I think. I like rooting for Oscar and I want him to be happy. Yeah, I just, I mean, Bertha and George have been since day one and remain to me the headliners and the characters I'm most interested in.

1:33:39So I think that like seeing how Bertha, how much of her response to George leaving in the early episodes of season four will be, I'm fighting for you and I'm fighting for us. And how much will be, I am putting on a brave face to preserve our standing and the illusion that we are still happy. Curious to see, curious to see that. What about you? Who are you most interested in? Jack and Bridget? It is of course the Russells, but it is with some Jack and Bridget on the side. And look, I want to see if Gladys and Hector start doing it. That's what I'm interested in, Mal. That's what I'm looking forward to in season four.

1:34:18Are we going to start getting it on in the house that's been there since the 1580s or whatever it is? All right. I'm all in. We love the Gilded Age. Can't wait for season four. And of course there will be hats. Can't wait for season four. If season four started tomorrow, It would not be soon enough. I couldn't agree more. Can't wait. This has been the Prestige TV podcast. Thank you to Mallory Rubin for joining me. Thank you to Kai Grady for producing this episode. Thank you to Justin Sales. And thank you to you for listening.

1:35:01This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods, who has your back to school eats sorted. Wow, we're going back to school already. They've got your fast and easy breakfast covered with frozen waffles and pancakes. Lunchboxes are looking tasty with organic seedless grapes and baby carrots and essentials like cheese sticks. Then for dinner, you can build your own meal. Choose from a variety of entrees like chicken scallopini and two sides. And it's all good too. Whole Foods has banned more than 300 food ingredients store wide. Shop back to school must-haves at Whole Foods Market in-store or online.

1:35:32This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans.