The ‘Lost’ Episode That Got Us Hooked

22:19Rob:Yeah, a close-up of Jack's eye. So you've got a guy is in a suit in the jungle, and there's a dog here, and you're immediately like, this is a weird setup. And then we follow Jack as he emerges onto the beach into chaos, but chaos that makes logical sense to us. Oh, it's a plane crash. Yes. And though this is not an ordinary event, it's an event that we recognize versus just guy in jungle in a suit with a mini bottle of booze in his pocket, you know? And so it's just like, it's this cool sort of surreal moment that bleeds right into this. And watching it after covering the pit with you, I was just sort of like, oh, the pit owes a lot.

22:59It probably does.

23:01Rob:A lot of favors to this opening of Lost Air. Well, I mean, they are successful for the same reason, which is the pacing of these opening episodes is really remarkable. And I think some of it is what you're alluding to, which is like, you put screaming people on a beach with wreckage. we all know what happened like you don't need to be told and it it turns into like a masterclass lightning round show don't tell we are just moving from case to case injured like person in peril to person in peril and as you're going through all that obviously it's just propulsive in a watching capacity like i'm just hooked on what is going to happen next who's the next person needs to be pulled out from a jet engine uh or away from a jet engine and but you're also getting all the little character moments that are telling you about these people as you go who is willing to help, who is stepping up to do this, who is calling for their loved one who they can't find.

23:48Like you're filling in all these gaps really, really quickly in a way that, you know, you and I, Joe, as we've been talking about all these other pilots have been returning to like, how efficiently are you able to set up your cast of characters and how broad can that cast be in a pilot? And even for the shows that do it really efficiently, how are you able to also make it an entertaining episode with its own story that is satisfying in its own way? And this is the answer to how you do it like it's incredibly efficient storytelling but it also has that like roller coastery feel right from the jump where i'm just like i'm locked into the rhythm of the show to the point that when we finally do ease up and zoom out it's like okay i kind of know in a broad sense who some of these people are who some of them are to each other and now we can kind of reset the stage and figure out like okay what is what is the next thing we have to accomplish it's like as a piece of entertainment it is just pure adrenaline joy and it looks great you know

24:44Rob:the fuselage looks amazing on the beach um you know they're filming on oahu in you know the same place that jurassic park was filmed and you could tell you know like everything is just absolutely gorgeous but when you dive into it from a just pull apart this screenplay and figure out the magic trick that they pulled off here. Tracking the character whose name you learn when and what kernel of information you get about them when and how natural all of it feels. When we find out that Charlie is in a one-hit wonder band, when we find out that Saeed was in the Republican Guard, when we find out that Sawyer's a racist piece of shit, all of these moments are inside conversations that feel like fun and natural.

25:35Rob:And like, Saeed makes this revelation while he's trying to fix the radio. And Charlie tells, you know, Kate, you know, sings a little You All Everybody while they're hiking to try to find the wreckage. You know, we're doing something and we're dropping, oh, Boone, that's my brother, God's gift to, you know, humanity, like blah, blah, blah. Like that's all inside of these other moments. And it's all just carefully sort of nested like a like a little like russian doll sort of inside of a plot that's just going going going and this is where i think the survivor structure that you described like really pays off you can feel like in the same way that a reality show kind of comes out in the edit of like what information is you're saying in lost case like do you reveal first and how does that anchor our opinion of that character right you can see the same kind of storytelling happen here you can see the same kind of archetypes from reality tv happening here as far as like oh here's the do-gooder doctor hero you know here here's the you know attractive woman he happened to stumble upon and now they are like bonded together in this very alchemical way and have like all of these very easy stand-ins for people we know here's the superficial woman painting her nails you know it's like all of these things are very recognizable immediately and then you get the entire show i imagine to peel back to subvert to tell us more about who these are these people are i thought the way that is done with kate and her flashback specifically is just like really smart storytelling.

26:57And so that's the part of the show I am most looking forward to is, okay, we have the one-line synopsis summary of all these characters and we started to get a little deeper with Jack and Kate and Charlie. How does it dramatically transform our understanding of who these people are as we get every little bit and piece along the way?

27:16Rob:I think the best, the fact that Charlie Pace is in a band and also has a heroin habit is not that surprising. The fact that Kate, who we've seen be so both scared and deeply terrified and also quite heroic and has some leadership qualities to her and has some like, I'm here for the group qualities to her, to have that revelation of, oh, she was the one in handcuffs is just one of the many genius beats of the show. um and then but then to get that revelation oh she's the one in handcuffs uh and then if you rewatch you see like the first time we see her she's rubbing her wrist because she just took the handcuffs off of them and stuff like that like um to to get that information and in that same beat you get that information you watch her put the oxygen mask on the piece of shit u.s marshal before she puts it on herself and so then you learn even another thing about kate is that even inside of this information we have that she's being brought in to justice, quote unquote, but there's something about her that is the person that we thought we were getting to know also.

28:32Rob:So that's, again, like triple layers deep on a character inside of this massive cast. I'm just gonna, I wrote this down from memory. I think I got everyone, but we'll see. Here are the characters that we were supposed to be at least somewhat tracking in this two episode pilot. Jack Kate Charlie Saeed Shannon Boone Hurley Claire Rose John Sawyer Son Jen Michael Walt I'm sorry Vincent good boy what a good boy I was about to say you better name that dog Vincent not to mention the flight attendant Cindy and the pilot Greg Gunnberg rest in peace pieces and the polar bear and the polar bear of course and whatever it is that's making a lot of stompy noises in the jungle and whatever French woman did the VO for the recording.

29:20Rob:Yes, the French woman on the radio. Great point. Great shout. Did anyone like fail to land with you or did they, you know, there are certain people we, you know, like John Locke is here to be mysterious and tell us about backgammon. You know, like there are certain characters who are, you know, Hurley seems friendly and doesn't like the sight of blood, but we don't really know anything about him, you know, his history and stuff like that. There are certain things that we don't get. Claire is pregnant. That's all we know. Are there any of these characters that failed to like connect with you or you were like, oh, that wasn't an interesting way to meet that archetype.

29:51Those kinds of meetings, the characters who we know little about, I'm mostly intrigued by. And I just want to know more about them. So none of them really fell flat for me. The one that didn't quite work for me was Charlie. And I think it's because the drug stuff is like such an, it's like such a clear faint. And maybe there's a double faint and this is a head fake and we're going to swerve some other way that I don't expect. But that was the one time in these two episodes where I felt a little ahead of the curve of what the show was dishing out. And everything is so mysterious and everyone's backstories are so closely held that even feeling that felt different than everything else that was happening on screen.

30:24Rob:You were like, oh, a twitchy guy has disappeared into the bathroom. I fucking wonder why. He sprinted to the front of the plane and everyone is trying to figure out where he went. Like he obviously hit something, probably drugs in the bathroom. He's either a junkie or a mule or maybe both. Like that just seemed like where we were headed with all that. I think that's completely fair with Charlie. I for my part I will say I think the least successful part like in terms of you're exactly right that we are presented with various archetypes that will then be subverted that is that's just the show right um and there are ways in which this information is so interestingly doled out like I think you know you mentioned we first meet the character of Michael screaming for Walt we find out that Walt is his son and then we find out that he doesn't quite know how old Walt is and we find out that Walt doesn't even live with him, that he lives with his mom who just died.

31:12Can I first say, very relatable in that way, because I am the kind of person who, if someone asks how old I am, will occasionally give the slightly wrong answer and then have to correct myself. So who among us?

31:23Rob:No, that's, if you ask me about most people that I love and care about, I could not tell you actually how old they are precisely. Now, we are not their parents. So yes, there's a different reflection in that in specific, but we're learning more about him as we go. that's a great that's a great moment of like oh this guy doesn't know how old his kid is yeah okay um despite seeing how concerned he was about where walt was um well also when i mean when he says we'll get you a new dog just like very clear this guy does not know how to fully dad not great not great um i would say for me the biggest failure and in this double premiere which i think is so good um in terms of like we will subvert expectations around them but in in something that I don't think they had a full handle on.

32:08Rob:I will say the Sun and Jin relationship. This is the couple who speak only Korean in the double premiere. And Jin is sort of like, it's us first. This is very like Joel and Ellie last of us. We are concerned with us. Then sort of makes his public bid with some seafood that he has procured for people that nobody wants to eat. least of all the pregnant woman. Just ungrateful. Literally the only person who seems to fully appreciate like the fresh uni he's dishing out is Claire's baby. Other than that, come on. But isn't Claire not supposed to be having sushi? Look, desperate times, all right? Fair enough, fair enough.

32:52This is fascinating you say this though because I found myself like really compelled by their relationship.

32:58Rob:I'm compelled by it. I think they just, it's the one case where I think they swerved a little hard in a direction. if that makes sense, that they then don't find a natural way back from. I think that makes total sense. But I do think having two characters, in this case, speaking Korean, where all of the audience, you know, in my case, people who don't speak Korean, like I am reading every bit of body language, every bit, like every kind of social cue and detail, trying to understand who these people are, reading into their hesitations, like are these people who only speak Korean? Are these people who are choosing to speak Korean, even though they do speak English, to create that barrier, like an us versus the world or us alone kind of thing.

33:35Like I'm really captivated by what we've seen from them on screen, even in these first two episodes. So I'm eager to see kind of what becomes of them.

33:44Rob:Other than sort of the instances that we've mentioned, Michael not knowing how old Walt is, et cetera, et cetera. Are there any, do you have any favorite instances of like telegraphing a relationship dynamic without overtly saying the thing? I actually think even though that one is a little heavy handed, it might be Jin and Son. It might just be like the, again, just the way they are, like those two actors are physically responding to each other's dialogue is something that like I'm already locked in on in terms of like clearly there is a male patriarchal protectiveness slash assertiveness slash.

34:18I mean, maybe it feels almost like a little misplay, like a little overcompensating in a way that I don't know if that's what you're alluding to as far as maybe being pitched a little bit intense or if that's part of the character. I don't really know any of that yet, but that's all fun stuff to dig into two episodes in.

34:33Rob:Absolutely. Okay. So we've mentioned that we have three flashbacks. We have a flashback for Jack, a flashback for Charlie and a flashback for Kate. And this is all like what they were doing on the plane before the crash. Yeah. And I'm really glad we're doing this next to our Veronica Mars coverage, because having just come off a show where we were quite critical of how they overused flashbacks inside of that, Lost is a show that is just, his first couple seasons are just anchored on the concept of a flashback. Yes. So many shows copy the lost model going forward where you have, you know, in this first episode, you know, we've got Jack and Kate and Charlie, but going forward, you will have a, it's a blank episode.

35:18Rob:It is a Kate episode. It is a Jack episode. It is a Charlie episode. It is a John episode. It's whatever. And so you will get flashbacks that will help you understand a bit more who that character is while they're working their way through some drama on the island. And what is so genius about the way in which Lost employs that as a rule is, again, it's not about how this person got here. It's about why this person is making the choices that they're making on the island. What it is about who they are, why they are, the way that they are. And you slowly peel back the layers on these characters to find that out.

36:01Rob:So that is like a, you know, any given Netflix show might try to pull off that trick nowadays. That is like a fairly common sort of idea, but Lost really pioneered it. How do you feel like these sort of mini flashbacks that we get for Jack, for Kate, and for Charlie work inside of this double premiere? They're incredibly effective. I think you're right to point out the contrast. And to me, a lot of it is, like what's striking to me hearing you kind of unpack the role that the flashbacks play and kind of the way they're deployed is they are answering questions that we actually already have as a viewer, right?

36:35Like you see these people, you see them on the beach. I'm like, John Locke, why are you the way you are? Like, I genuinely don't understand this man or his whole deal. I can't wait to see more of him. But like, that's a character I want to know more about. and by virtue of the structure of the show, putting all these people on a plane, all for their individual purposes, all who had complete lives leading up to that moment and the crash, those are questions we have. Just by, you know, you see them and the way they act on the island, as you said, and I want to be able to reverse engineer who these people are based on their backstory.

37:04Things like Veronica Mars often are grinding the action that we're invested in to a halt to then tell us about something that we didn't know we needed to ask, but then, of course, yes, like, oh, here's a murder suspect. Here's this other element. Here's this character motivation that you didn't know about. That stuff's helpful and I think can be good and can, in retrospect, feel valuable. But as far as the momentum of a show, these are flashbacks that are accelerating that momentum and not taking it away. This episode is brought to you by NOS Energy, introducing new NOS Energy Grand Prix Guava.

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39:07Rob:I feel very confident in us picking this double pilot as the hook episode of the show. I do think in the grand scheme of things, the most convincing argument that people could make for a different episode is episode four walkabout, which is John Locke's episode, which is a stunner of an episode. And so, and is a moment that a lot of people cite as like a, oh my God, this is why I watch Lost. We should say that. I know people have been emailing us at Prestigetv at Spotify.com about this series, about the Hooked Conceit, about various shows and what they think a Hooked episode is. I almost want to come through this a little bit.

39:47There is the Hooked episode that gets you on board. And then there's the Oh Shit episode. And to me, they're often not entirely the same thing. One of them is it kind of, again, takes you to a place that you maybe didn't know the show could go or shows you a version of the show that you didn't think could exist. there's an amplifying effect to that that is to me almost separate from what we're trying to do

40:08Rob:with hooked i can't wait to see what happens next sort of thing and there's two there's two different natures uh like two different ideas when it comes to hooked which might not be a clean concept for a podcast but there's like there's this which is this this pilot ends guys where are we boom and and you just want to press play on the next thing you can't wait to see what happens next And then there's, this is what the show is, which is a little different. That's sort of what we've been trying to drill down on with something like Mad Men. I think the Breaking Bad episode we picked was very much more like that literal hookiness.

40:44Rob:But with our Mad Men or Veronica Mars choices, we were like, this is actually more what you can expect from the show, which is just a little different than a grab you. So I guess we're coming up with all kinds of taxonomies. It's true. There's the oh shit. There's the grab you. There's the like, I'm in secure storytelling hands kind of idea. And we also got an email from a listener who was like suggesting that we should do a miniseries called Unhooked, which is like, what is the episode that like kicked you off? Like killed forever your interest in a show. And I think that is interesting to think about.

41:14Absolutely interesting to think about. I do think it's worthy to discuss whether a two part pilot and premiere should qualify. Yeah. And I say that especially because look, I. You were anti this. I was a little skeptical of it. Like, obviously they are of a piece and they are telling a story that is a two-part story.

41:31Rob:Yeah. From the, I was going to say safety, from the whatever 2025 is, I on my couch can hit next on Hulu and watch the next episode of Lost. This was not a double batch same night premiere. This was two separate weeks, two separate episodes. I think by a certain definition, it's just kind of episode one and two of Lost. I don't entirely disagree with you and episode one I think does end with like a pretty neat hook like you were pretty much in oh yeah when I was rewatching you watched episode one before I watched my episodes and like bearing that in mind when episode one ended I was like we maybe could have stopped here we actually probably could have stopped here I honestly had seen all I needed to see as far as like an investment in a show.

42:25Rob:Yeah, but there are certain character beats that I think are so important in the second episode in terms of like, they simply do not have the time to give you little moments with everyone. And so you just need that extra hour to sort of give you that Saeed and Hurley conversation or give you these various other things. It's so Jack and Kate and Charlie focused in that first hour. So I think just getting the full scope of what is on offer here. It's true. Is sort of how I think about it. But it's a fair point, Rob. Ultimately, I'm glad we did it for exactly that reason. Like I do have a better sense of all of these other characters, many of whom I want to talk about in greater detail.

43:08But like, yeah, it would have been a much narrower scope on what we've been talking about. It's like a huge ensemble show. And that in itself is maybe not a fair representation of what Lost is. One and two in total is maybe the fairest representation of that.

43:24Rob:Which characters do you want to talk about? Are you saying like right now? I'll save it for some of our prompts. Yeah, I have some dialed up. Okay. All right. Before we get there, Rob, there's a mystery monster in this episode. There certainly is. Can I give you a little bit of trivia? Please. When we first, you know, it's really Claire who's like identifying like, guys, what's that? What's happening over there? But the character of Rose, there's overlapping dialogue. So you might not on first watch hear this, but Rose is like, it sounds familiar. It sounds like something from home. And people ask her where she's from, and she says the Bronx.

44:03Rob:A fun fact is that the sound design that they use there does include the sound of a printing receipt in a taxi cab. So that's just like a sound design joke, essentially. but I mean it's a tremendous bit and a ticker tape of a of a of a taxi cab receipt which children once upon a time taxi cabs used to print receipts they still do they still do print them but the sound design of all of the monster sequences really does make it and the sort of like walking the line of like is this an animal is that a mechanical kind of roaring which is you alluded to is in the sauce there uh the fact that it's impossible to place I think is what makes it so good.

44:46So I love a mystery. I love a monster. I love a mystery monster. I am game for all of this stuff. And especially in the way I was describing earlier where it sort of like transforms what you think you're watching and where you think you are. And it's, you know, Joe, you're so right to point out like the fact that we don't have like a natural sort of point of view character or like a tour guide character to take us around the island. Like we are firmly in the other but there's those two buckets. Either someone is taking through the world and telling you all the rules and showing you what's what or we, along with the characters, are trying to figure out what the hell is happening.

45:20And I feel like the sound design and the deployment of the monster specifically is the crystallization of that idea of even if they thought they knew where they were and clearly they're way off course and could not pinpoint themselves on a map even if they tried, they don't know what universe they're in, how this polar bear got here, what this monster is, where these sounds are coming from. Like the accelerating nature of those mysteries I think is just so compelling for a show like this.

45:46Rob:And I love that you shout out this sort of, that moment where we find out that they're way off course. The use of the pilot in the pilot. Once again, shout out J.J. Abrams, regular Greg Grumberg. But like, the fact that like, you know, he's ailing, you know, we're inside a bit of plane that's like precariously teetering, you know, very Jurassic Park-esque, like precariously teetering out of a tree. We're at a sharp angle. Everything is, and there's a monster in the jungle. All of this is putting pressure on us. And also the pilot is asking questions that he, who is sort of a de facto, would be a de facto leader if he were not now, just like bloody pulp, should be asking, which is how many survivors.

46:31Rob:And so we find out how many survivors, and we find out how long it's been since they crashed. These are questions he's asking Jack, and then he gives Jack information about were these many miles off course. And this constant refrain we hear from especially characters like Shannon of they'll take care of it, whoever the they are, when they get search and rescue is named. But several times characters will be like, oh, they will do this or when they find us. And it's this idea of someone is watching and taking care of us. Someone is at the wheel somewhere. And it's no, it's you guys are going to have to figure it out.

47:07Rob:And Jack in his very Noah Wiley in the pit, Robbie-like, in the natural authority that comes of being a medical professional in a medical emergency gets slotted into this leadership role. but as you alluded to in as well as survivor lord of the flies is definitely the dna here so it's like who do we want leading us yeah and who will they decide they want leading them and and will that will that always be the same answer going forward as it is in a medical emergency yes look now yeah now that the initial wave of trauma flood has happened in terms of the physical well it's still happening i mean surgery is still in progress so things are happening but yeah once the dust settles who is who is your kind of peacetime president you know who are you who are you deferring to in that capacity i do have an information question for you that i was not sure about from these two episodes uh when they do return from this expedition to the cockpit where they meet the pilot and then lose the pilot and then run off into the jungle many many things happen yeah um when they return they tell ian sommerhalder's character boone that there are no survivors from the crash to me that read initially as like they're not gonna tell people about the pilot.

48:21Maybe they're not going to tell people that the plane was so horribly off course. I wasn't quite clear how much had been conveyed from the Trinity who went out on the expedition and came back as far as how fucked everyone is from a search party perspective.

48:37Rob:That's a great stay tuned question to ask. Though I will say as we enumerate all the mysteries of the island, who is this French woman? What does she mean when she says, you know, they're all dead. What is that about? That 16-year-old mystery, all this sort of stuff like that. What if it's just like Juliette Binoche hiding in the mountain? I'm just saying, there's lots of very satisfying answers to where that plotline could go. Julie Delpy, like there's a number of French women I would happily encounter. Any one of the women in Portrait of a Lady on Fire, whoever's waiting for us in the jungle, I would happily receive them.

49:14Rob:They mentioned that the tail section landed elsewhere. So that's just like a big question mark that has existed. Disconcerting. The way the plane was ripped apart, very disconcerting to watch. I love when you, I don't know if you're like me, but you're like watching. I love part of the flashback of who was sitting where on the plane when it crashed is like really fun. You know, you're just like, okay, John is sitting right behind Rose. Charlie crawls over Shannon and Boone, who go out of their way to say they weren't in first class. Because if you're in first class, that means you were in the tree with the pilot, right?

49:49Rob:and so when she's like he saved our lives it's like if they were in first class they'd be dead in the tree but they were sort of a bit back and it's just like Charlie made it all the way to the front of the plane and then somehow made it all the way far enough back that he survived the crash as well and that's all just like fun little like puzzling puzzle making that you can do and just a pro move crossing the aisle like that by Charlie in order to evade one that I really learned I think from The Wedding Singer when a guy is trying to escape Billy Idol. And really the only way you can get away from Billy Idol is by crossing to the other side.

50:23Rob:And both The Wedding Singer and Charlie's Flashback have a dangerous cart going down the aisles bodily harm moment. Watch those elbows. It's a real hazard. It is. It's jungle out there. Okay, so I'm just going to race through some of our usual questions without spoiling anything for you just to do due diligence to what we usually ask. Sounds great. Is the setting location typical or atypical of the larger series? Does that matter? We're on the island. That's where we need to be. It's fairly typical. Makes sense. The immediate emergency of the plane crash is slightly atypical. But are enough of the main slash most important characters represented here?

51:03Rob:Does that matter? Yeah. The gang's all here. The gang is all here. Not the entirety of the series gang is all here. But our season one gang is all here. Do you want more characters that we met in these first two episodes? I don't think you could handle it. And then most important relationships. I would say we can get into this a little bit more, but I just think, you know, I think like having a son and Jen moment, having a Michael Walt moment, having, you know, Jack and Kate's, you know, unfurling conversations, Shannon and Boone, Shannon talking to Claire, Saeed, Dr. Hurley, like it's all, they're all sort of, you know, and Sawyer doing whatever the fuck Sawyer wants to do inside of these episodes.

51:40Rob:So it's like, it's all Jack and Wall, John and Wall. Like it's all sort of in the mix here. There's too many things to pick from and they're all important as it turns out. So that's the great news. So that's sort of all the bare bones sort of stuff we wanted to race through. I appreciate the sensitivity too. I'm almost like compelled to ask you about different character dynamics and like, you know, whose arc I should be looking out for. But I feel like when the cast is big, I want to know as little as possible. Can I tell you another fun fact, which is, So like, okay, then this is not a spoiler, but years ago, before I started the Lost podcast, I was at an HBO party.

52:21Rob:And it was when Watchmen was on. So Damon Lindelof was there. And I never met him. And I like forced a friend of mine to introduce me to him so that I could tell him we were about to do a Lost podcast. And he was like very, very nice and gracious. And he was like, really? Every episode? And at that party, he told me a fun fact about the pilot script, which is that originally for Boone, our guy Boone Carlisle, Ian Somerhalder, they wanted to call him Five, as in like he was the fifth, Boone Carlisle the fifth sort of thing. So like his name was Five. And then they decided against that. So they just did like a find and replace in the script for Five and changed it to Boone.

53:07Rob:but then when you get to like either jack or kate counting like one two three four it said it said like one two three four boon in the script because they just did like a blanket find and replace i love that story so something about ian sommerholder does just read like you would you would be the fifth in a lineage you know like maybe that maybe that's my like rules of attraction brain seeping in but just the man reads uppity i don't know what to tell you it's the way that i mean ian Samarhalder, one of, you know, God's gift to humanity. Absolutely. He's so beautiful. Well, and to inhumanity in the vampire sense.

53:44Rob:Absolutely. He's such an objectively beautiful person, but his eyes are just a little too close to God. In a golden ratio sense, that makes you think like, yeah, you might be the fifth in the line of something. Absolutely. I love the Boone moment that I love is when Jack's like, yeah, sure, go get me some pens. Yeah. guy. And then he comes back, he's like, I didn't know what kind to get. So I got all the pens. And great. I want to say in the great sibling feud of Shannon and Boone, I got to say I'm team Shannon in this whole ordeal. Like everyone's been through a lot. Let her paint her toenails.

54:23You know, like I think it's OK.

54:25Rob:Shannon is a real like 2004. This series comes out. people hate Shannon. Yeah. When I, you know, we're in our Paris Hilton is on Veronica Mars era of culture, you know, and people are just like hating the Shannon archetype. When we covered it, I was like quite defensive. I found myself quite defensive of Shannon. I did it. I feel like we've really like come in a sort of like Cordelia Chase kind of way, like really come some ways on these characters. Come on. All right. Episode MVP, aka the honorary Bill Simmons, who won the episode trophy. Rob, who are you giving this to? It's very clear for me, Joe.

55:04It's Sawyer.

55:06Rob:Tell me about Sawyer. He shot a bear. Where did it come from? Polar bear village. I don't know. Easily the most interesting character to me so far. Just with a bullet. In some ways, he's clearly being misjudged by other people, as is almost everyone on the beach. In some ways, he is exactly the kind of asshole who other people have determined that he probably is. That sort of like some true, some false binary I find really fascinating with him. I am also just like, personally speaking, and maybe this is something I need to reflect on, deeply skeptical of Jack. And so the fact that there is a character who's calling Jack out on his like hero bullshit, I just feel bonded to that character.

55:50Maybe not in the ins and outs of his specific kinds of racism, but I am glad that he is involved in the plot. I'm glad for the presence that he is providing in this show.

55:59Rob:So you're like, yeah. Yeah, so what I'm hearing for you is that you love a man who accuses an airman of being a terrorist. Not what I said. But you need some bad people also. Like, not everyone can be goody two-shoes. Not everyone can be rowing in the same direction. Like, I need somebody who just wants to pick up the gun, shoot the bear, and answer questions later. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about Sawyer that I can't wait to someday talk to you about. It'll be a treat. But I was hoping that you would feel an interest in Sawyer, which can be a hard sell for some people in this pilot, given some things he does.

56:40Rob:I will say there's a prompt that I dropped in here for a couple of bullet points down just so that I could have an excuse to talk about Sawyer, which is a single striking visual. And I genuinely think it's Sawyer sitting in the curve of the fuselage, reading this letter after having just like introduced himself to us as like an absolute asshole, having what is clearly an emotional reaction to a letter with this like massive backdrop of the jungle behind him. and it's just like the way it's framed. It's just sort of like, you don't know everything about this character yet, which is true of every single character on the show.

57:18Rob:But like, he's the one who is, he and like, I would say Jin are the two characters who like in this pilot, we are sort of being asked to judge and dislike and then also be curious about at the same time. So. Well done. Gosh, my, who won the episode trophy though? I think I have to give it to Evangeline Lilly as Kate. I think I was familiar with Matthew Fox from Party of Five. I was familiar with Dawn Monaghan from Lord of the Rings. This is Evangeline Lilly's introduction to the world. You didn't have the benefit of Desolation of Smaug leading you in. She is so Canadian, though her character is not, but she's so Canadian.

58:01Rob:I think Kate Austin, though she's not my favorite Lost character, is so compelling. And this is, again, when we talk about the character, someone said this to me when I was covering every episode of Lost that really unlocked it for me, which is Kate Austin is a J.J. Abrams character. She's a very Sidney Bristow, an alias, a very Felicity character. Like, this is a very Rey in Star Wars. Like, this is a character that J.J. Abrams loves to create. Then she becomes a J.J. Abrams character in a Damon Lindelof show. And that just like eventually some of those pieces don't fit anymore. But like that was such a revelation to me.

58:41Rob:I was like, yeah, of course. She is a J.J. Abrams confection and she works so well here. And the moment where she has to take the boots off of a dead body and we are asked sort of to just be with her in the silent horror of that. moment, but the very sort of utilitarian, like, I need these boots to do the thing is, you know, barring, well, actually, I'll get to another Kate moment, but like, that to me is what hooks me most about this double premiere. Well, you are in my brain today, Joe, because that, you know, we like to pick a standout scene from these episodes. That was my standout scene, was the specific prompt of Kate wanting to go along on the hike, you're going to need some better shoes and again silently plucking these boots off of this dead man's body in a way that like everything had been so propulsive in in this pilot to that point you didn't really have time to stop and sort of account for the devastation of what has just happened and then as you said like the practical realities that are going and coinciding with that it's not just there are all these dead bodies and we need to figure out something to do with these dead bodies it's we're gonna have to kind of loot these dead bodies for the supplies that we may need just for the just for the realities of surviving on this island.

1:00:01Coinciding with, she looks up and gets the orange slice smile from John Locke across the way in a way that's making me think, what the fuck? I am like kind of... It leaves me in such a strange place because it's like kind of comforting in a way and kind of creepy in a way. And that means I'm exactly where the show wants me to be. I am already wondering more about both of these characters and how all of these people are going to deal with the reality of what just happened once it finally settles in for all of them. Like once the screaming stops, the internal screaming begins. And now all of these people are going to have to pluck boots off of various corpses in order to figure out how to go on.

1:00:41And like that was the sort of moment that to me was like, okay, this is not just the show that can do the boom, boom, boom triage of the initial crisis. It's also the show that's going to slow down. It's also the show that's going to give us the character moments. It's also the show that's going to give us the mystery into who these people are and how they are trying to interact with each other. Whether John Locke was trying to reassure her, doing a weird bit, maybe just eating an orange and forgot he was eating an orange, I don't know, but I would love to find out.

1:01:09Rob:I can't wait for you to find out. For me, the standout scene is Kate and Jack when he is giving his angel hair pasta sort of story to her. Oh my god, just a horrifying visual to imagine. Exactly. Like, that, again, that feels like a very Lindelof moment to me. Jack, who is, you know, the big hero of the introduction to the show, is then telling her a story of, like, failure and fear and vulnerability. And he's doing it as a bid to, like, get her to steady her hands as she does something for her. Yes. He's also inside of this scenario where I'm so sad that I can't talk about like a future thing that Jack does.

1:01:58Rob:But like, is that a scenario where he's like, I, the Jack savior complex, the Jack hero, the complex, the Jack, I can save everyone. I can run around and I can help Claire. and I can help Rose and I can help all these people unless they get literally sucked into an engine. You know, like I can do it all. But I've got this cut on my back that I can't reach. And I need to ask someone for help, you know? And it's just sort of like, what is the, what is, in terms of like that social interaction of community, you know, what is that moment? I need to ask this woman who I don't know for help. I need to trust her that she can do this.

1:02:42Rob:She's very hot, but is she competent? I don't know. Can she sew? Can she sew? She sewed her drape, so that was with a machine, so who knows, you know? I love that he's got that travel sewing kit that's in so many people's luggage. And then Kate, as someone who is presented as quite competent, she gets a gun off Sawyer later. There's a lot of stuff that she can do. But her fear, her fear as she tucks herself inside of like a mangrove tree and is, you know, counting to five, her fear in this moment, like all of that, his failure, her fear inside of these heroic moments for them is the like absolutely intoxicating, I'm going to use the Maluruban word, brew that is lost, you know?

1:03:31It's really delivering a lot of different emotional wavelengths within these first two episodes in a way that is really impressive. And I think transcends, as we've been talking about with these other pilots, the sort of like Wikipedia entry version of the show or even the like we are selling this to the network version of the show. It is we are delivering out of the gate on the promise of who these characters already are to each other and who they could potentially be to each other.

1:03:55Rob:And there are a lot of compromises that they had to make, of course, to get this through to the network, I will say. And as you watch season one, a mandate that they were given in season one is that there needed to be a plausible explanation for everything that happens on the island, even like a monster. Because ABC was like too – genre shows did not have this kind of mass appeal. This was kind of a risky move. and so you know barring you know the X-Files was of course a cultural phenomenon Buffy was a niche cultural phenomenon like these things existed but on this scale of what Lost becomes this is a different animal altogether absolutely it's also I would say baked into the DNA of something like the X-Files that it's like there are no answers for some of this stuff you know it's like there are things that we can answer and there are things we can't to come into this as like a plane crash show that then quickly becomes a mystery show.

1:04:52I can understand the thinking of why you want to maybe give people a little bit more firm ground to walk on, but it does defeat the purpose of what the show is trying to be based on these first two it would seem.

1:05:02Rob:And I will say eventually the first season is so popular that eventually the network is like, okay do your weirdness. It's fine. Okay. I already mentioned my single striking visual. I'll pick another one. There's a lot. Actually, I'm going to pick two. One is John lock you mentioned the orange peel smile that's great the john lock holding up the back gamut pieces want two players one black one white it's like an absolutely iconic visual i can imagine uh from this episode and then i will also say the choice to have kate find the captain's like wings in the water and then to get the reflection of his body up in the tree in the reflection of the water.

1:05:44Rob:That's good shit, Joe. That's good shit. JJ, you can do it. You are capable of it. Alright, what would you pick here? I think for me, it's sort of, again, in a different register, where it's the visual of a collapsed Hurley on top of the surgery scene, where a lot has been happening, and yes, there have been quips to this point, and a little light humor. I would say, especially Charlie has that role throughout some of it through these first two episodes, but we're just like in the midst of a crisis and we're pulling off like full-scale physical comedy. And it's like a legitimately like very important moment in terms of, you know, deflating some of the anxiety from the episode in this surgery that I really appreciated and that we can have all of these beautiful visuals, all these dramatic elements that we're introducing to the show, all these mysteries, and we can also have fun with it.

1:06:35Not a lot of shows can pull that off. And so I was very appreciative.

1:06:39Rob:I think that is sort of a Linda Lafian, like pull that I always appreciate is that once you get outside the first season of The Leftovers, which is has its ups, but is like fairly unrelentingly grim. But when you think about those later seasons, which you and I talked about in previous Prestige TV podcast episodes, or we think about Watchmen, like all of this is dealing with incredibly heavy emotional stuff. And there's just like a bit of whimsy also there. You got to take the piss out of the thing, because in a way it will amplify the grief, the difficulty, like all of the heavy emotions you're trying to get into.

1:07:16It's like a little bit of a salt on the watermelon situation where it's going to intensify what you're getting from these other elements of the show.

1:07:24Rob:I want to, I already mentioned Michael G. Kino as this like key player. I just want to mention that a musical cue that we get inside of this episode is one of my favorites. Actually, it will recur. It's called like the traveling theme And it's when Sawyer and Kate and Shannon and Boone and Charlie and Saeed are grappling up a cliffside via vines, essentially. And it's just this very jaunty, we're going somewhere on the island music that you hear a lot. But it's called, and I think in honor of Shannon, it's called Hollywood and Vines. that's what that track is called because every single michael g kino track for lost is like a we'll piss off rob mahoney pun um look i like vines is one of my i like a pun i just think we need to show a little restraint sometime okay but michael g kino did not get that memo no that's okay you know what again if if you do the work like that you get the fuck you privilege to everyone else i'm trying to give you one that is not a spoiler i will give you uh there's one that's called i can't even say it out loud you can't even sit out it's shannon shenanigans it's shenanigans i actually do like shenanigans okay you know what maybe i'm just full-on shannon pilled at this point you know i'm willing to go along with anything shannon related i love how boom's like clearly you found your look in the sun the sunbathing was very funny yeah and then like claire trying to participate like with her like eight month belly and she's just like i will take a layer off.

1:08:53Rob:I am also doing this. And also Shannon being the kind of woman who like clearly doesn't know how to talk to a pregnant person. Or anyone. I mean, honestly, it's kind of an alien in her own right. Okay. What's the most 2004 thing about this episode? I actually think from a production and storytelling perspective, it is a moment you've already cited, which is when Kate gets scared and does her count to five. And we do not get the cutaway flashback to Jack telling her about it, which I feel like if this show were made today, that note is coming from somebody of like, oh my God, I'm so worried people aren't going to, why is she counting to five?

1:09:29This test audience didn't understand it.

1:09:31Rob:That's so depressing. Yeah. And again, to get that - They were second screening and they missed it. They totally missed it, even though it was dialogue. Yeah. Another way in which I just feel reassured that this is not a show that takes my attention and my just like baseline intelligence as a viewer, this is not critical thinking. This is just listening to the show and understanding what's happening for granted. Like this is a show that's going to reward you for paying attention to not even a detail, but just kind of the baseline executions of the plot and the characters. I love that. I think we've already talked at length about Shannon.

1:10:09Rob:I think as like a 2004 archetype, she's like pretty clear. I would say also, so yeah, this comes out in 2004. uh the the television uh show 24 uh is enormously popular we are in like the echoes of 9-11 into the Iraqi war and so Saeed as a character the the conversation about him being like pulled out of line and patted down in the airport uh uh Sawyer's suspicion of him Hurley's uh realization that he was in the Republican Guard all that sort of stuff and just in general this actually is like So I would say Saeed and Shannon is sort of like these, we've got our finger on the pulse of some kind of conversation moment.

1:10:50Rob:And then I would say, on the flip side of that, this sprawling international cast is very unusual for television at this time. For sure. And so, you know, to have Sun and Jin speaking in Korean, to have, you know, the character Saeed here, and all the, you know, unusual kinds of people that you get in this motley assortment. This was like a huge cast. And there's been so many imitators, bad imitators of Lost after Lost that this might not seem like a big deal, but this was a really big deal at the time. It was so striking in that way with the international cast that when Claire started talking, I was like, is this an Australian character or is this an Australian actress whose gnarors are poking through?

1:11:34You know, like what is happening here exactly?

1:11:36Rob:Claire's from Australia. You're, as you continue on your journey, so the Oceanic is the flight from Sydney to Los Angeles. Yes. So why were all these characters in Australia in the first place is a, you know, we know why Michael and Walt were there, but why was everyone else in Australia is a good question to ask. you're going to hear some quote unquote Australian accents on this show that's just some of the worst stuff I've ever heard in my life really really good anything else you want to say before we do a brief sort of spoiler free look ahead if I'm even capable of that not particularly I just I think these episodes are successful in delivering on hooking you in a way as I alluded to earlier by like, I didn't know what I wanted from these two episodes.

1:12:24And the fact that they were able to supply that and give you a backdoor way into a different kind of show, I think it's just really evolved storytelling for this sort of introduction. And I don't know how it's done. Like, I don't know how you pull all this off within this, I think, relatively finite runtime, given all that they accomplished. But I am in awe of it. It is incredibly impressive. I'm so excited. I'm on the hook for the show. I also, we would be loathe not to mention, There have been many lost homages, crossovers, references, not just as you said, Joe, in terms of shows like kind of trying to rip off the concept or the structure of the cast or whatever it is, but the numbers kind of pop up everywhere.

1:13:02We were talking about them earlier this year with Severance. Severance, yeah. But coming off of Veronica Mars, where they also make an appearance as the fortune cookie numbers, a fortune that Duncan gives Veronica to kind of reignite their relationship. So, you know, even within the hooked, the hooked averse lost, lost as an outsized presence.

1:13:21Rob:Normal is the watchword is what I heard. Okay. So I'm so excited. I genuinely cannot believe my luck in this like weird sort of podcasting Bermuda Triangle that we find ourselves right now. We're like you and Mal and I are covering Alien Earth together. I get to show Mal Buffy, which is one of your favorite shows. I get to show you Lost, which is one of Mal's favorite shows. it's like I feel very fortunate to be like sort of in this time. It's beautiful. Mal's joy and Mallory's joy in watching the first season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Your joy and your sort of like assertion that you're going to keep watching Lost.

1:13:58Rob:It's just like I can't wait to hear your takes on Lost. I'm so excited for this. So again, I know you have tons of spare time to do that. You're at sort of rep screenings in LA every night now and stuff like that. But we'll see what we can do. But let me be our first in-person affirmative testimonial that you proposed the Hooked episode. I watched it. I'm hooked. You're hooked. We did it. Mission accomplished. We did it. All right. Please text me when you get to walkabout and let me know what you think about it. Absolutely. Anything that I can say in a relatively spoiler-free way, just guess what larger themes or storylines or characteristics are seated here.

1:14:34I will just say, I think we've already covered most of this, but I'll just say, you know, like caring about all of these characters is something that Lost will continue to do.

1:14:43Rob:The flashback structure, which we already talked about. this moment as I mean as you might like a couple visuals that always come to mind when I think about this pilot Shannon sort of standing there like scream sobbing in front of the fuselage is one of them and then Charlie who just recently rubbed some heroin on his gums sort of like walking stumbling around like in a dazed state or like a sharpening the word fate on the tape on his like fingers and stuff like that. Like there are these moments and seeds that are planted. There are little details planted here that someone who's watched the show a million times, the, the backgammon game, all this sort of stuff that is just going to like continue to come back and back and back and back around.

1:15:27Rob:So like, you know, this, I lost was the first show inside of a rising internet fandom that really got the accusing finger of, did you have this all planned out when you started? Yeah. And they did and they didn't. Yeah. Right? Which honestly is probably the way you should do it. We talked about this before, I think, on this podcast, which is just sort of like... I mean, Breaking Bad is such a compelling counterexample. Absolutely. And with something like Severance, I don't need them to... Severance, a show that we really like and we also found a bit messy also at the same time. I don't need them to...

1:16:03Rob:I love mess. Again, this is my preferred zone. You and Marie Kondo. Just like, I love it. But I don't need them to know exactly where they're going. I do need them to be authentic to their characters. Yes. And I do need them to, what I want a show to do when they present twists and turns, or twists and turns that are there to serve character and serve plot and not just to shock and awe. That's the one. Like that's really key to me. And that's something that, for something like Game of Thrones, delineates early Thrones to later Thrones. Later Thrones was just like, how can we replicate the high that we get, God, of surprising you in the early seasons?

1:16:48Rob:And we'll just do it, you know, willy-nilly just to shock you. Whereas in early seasons of Thrones, it's like, here are these complex character choices that led up to this tragic and disastrous moment. And so it's just like, it's just a, I really think it comes down to caring about your characters. That's it. If you care about your characters, you're going to be authentic to their choices. And if you care about them, you're going to care that you put them in premises that make sense for the choices that they've made. And if those premises, if those tragedies, if those twists and turns provoke emotional response from the audience, they only will if you've hooked us into character as well as premise.

1:17:28Rob:so that's where I am. There is so much you can understand in a different way or forgive or kind of just blot out from a plotting perspective if all of that character stuff is on point. And I will trade the Loremaster show bible every day for a showrunner or a creator or a writer who has an actual good sense of who their characters are. And if you're nailing that, we will let the mystery be. We will forgive a lot and we will understand a lot in a different context if you can pull that stuff off. You beat me to the let the mystery be drop. I love that for you, Rob. Okay, so this is it for Hooked colon Lost.

1:18:09Rob:Hopefully you watched these episodes and you are hooked and want to watch Lost if you haven't already. They were not dead the whole time. I just left that one last time. Just to reiterate. It's very important to me. It's really important that you know that. We'll be back. As we mentioned, we're covering tasks on a weekly basis with Bill. We're going to be covering slow horses is at the end of the month. We've got a couple more hooked episodes coming, hopefully with some guests. Yeah, with some friends, which should be a lot of fun. Some pals are going to be joining us. So that is the plan. And then Rob and I are covering Alien Earth every week over in House of R for the rest of that run.

1:18:41Rob:So anywhere else that folks can find you, Rob Mahoney. That's about it for right now. NBA season is almost upon us. But mercifully, I think we're going to get through some of this very chunky, very good TV before the basketball really kicks up. Absolutely. All right. I will see you all soon. Thank you to Kai Grady and to Justin Sales. And bye.

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