‘The Pitt’ Season 2, Episode 8: Panic! At the Discharge

3:57Rob:It really was. It really was. We are going to get to mailbag. I just want to say in terms of like our mailbag this week, we got we heard from the legal community once again. We've been hearing from them all season. Just once again, they want to reiterate July 4th, not a good day for a deposition. Probably not happening. And one of the lawyers who wrote in said, especially not in the afternoon. Sure. That like Mel would have been in like first thing in the morning to sort of do her deposition. So something to think about. What did you make of like Dr. Brief, two brief time with Dr. Ellis inside of this episode?

4:29Rob:I feel like she should have stayed around to help with the chaos. But I don't know if we'll see her again. What do you make of her scene here with Mel?

4:39Jo:Loved it. I mean, for one, just getting a moment of clarity for Mel of hopefully exactly what she needs to hear.

4:46Rob:She's really going through it.

4:48Jo:She is.

4:48Rob:I picked Mel King as my ideal doctor to see me in the pit, but I don't know if I would pick her today.

4:56Jo:It's not her best day. She's quite distracted. Not her most confident day. And we even see, I think, later in this episode, I would say overall the theme of this entire episode to me is all about patient communication. Like, what are you articulating and how to patients? And one of the moments that caught my eye is when Mel alerts this woman who may be going blind in one eye that what she has going on is sometimes called an eye stroke. And you see like the side eye that Samira Mohan gives Mel in that moment. It's like, are you fucking kidding me? Like that is a word you do not say in this room at this moment when this woman is kind of freaking out.

5:28Rob:It's something that like we've seen Javadi do or Whitaker do or maybe Santos do, but not that's not usually an error that a blender that Mel makes. So this is just she's really going through it today.

5:39Jo:She really is. And hopefully after having this conversation with Ellis, maybe some of her fears will be quelled. But it's like from Ellis's perspective, I think she hits all of the important notes, which is this is a completely needless lawsuit. This is not your fault. You, my my perfect sweet summer child, did a great job. Just like Robbie has told her. OK, I don't know. Mel did not look particularly reassured afterwards, but I guess we'll see where she is next week.

6:07Rob:Inside of this episode, this is this is a this is a friendship test for you, Rob. inside of this episode, lurks something that I would call one of my most feared enemies of my early 20s. Do you care to guess one of my most hated enemies inside of this episode?

6:23Jo:Is it biting your tongue off? No. What would you actually be afraid of in your early 20s? I mean, randomly going blind is pretty terrifying. I don't think that's it for you. What else is really in play that would be so terrifying? Is it that? Is it the going blind?

6:39Rob:That's such a nice guess. You understandably were thinking about medical cases. The answer is a fax machine. I lived in New York and worked as a temp in various like high, like fast-paced financial offices where I had no business being in my like early 20s. I was completely bewildered. And just something that like the children who work here at the pit and the children out there in the universe don't know is that when you were an office temp in like the 80s and nineties, I guess, early aughts. That was me. There was a different fax machine at every single office you went through that had different like combinations of buttons.

7:14Rob:So like, if you're afraid to ask for help, if you are bewildered by the fax machine and afraid to admit that you don't know how to use it, you're just sort of like, is this one paper face up, face down? What combo buttons? I was just like, when the fax machine came out and the, and you heard the sound of the fax machine, I like the comedy of the young people in this show, not knowing what it was, or that it still existed, fine. But it struck terror in my heart, honestly.

7:39Jo:They are terrifying in their way. Every time I have attempted in my then very young age to use a fax machine, ended disastrously. Could not figure it out. Could not make heads or tails. I did think the single most believable moment in The Pit, which is quite a believable show most of the time, was the enthusiasm with which Dr. Abbott got to say, that is a fax machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He absolutely would. He'd be so psyched to be able to tell young people about a fax machine.

8:04Rob:But also Joy saying the 1900s, right? Which is something that I've heard like Gen Alpha say in a way to like try to wound. It's a good bit. Now, the whole

8:14Jo:Back to the Future Titanic.

8:16Rob:Yeah.

8:16Jo:Not the best written moment in the pit history.

8:18Rob:That's okay. But like LinkedIn was doing, you know, physical comedy. So that's something for us. All right. Mailbag time. DrSyBangs at gmail.com. Press htv at spotify.com if folks want to reach us. Of course. The pit has been very fruitful in terms of listener feedback. Let's start with Christina, who wanted to let us know about Javadi potentially going into dermatology. And Christina said that, like, in terms of residency competitiveness, dermatology, along with radiology, ophthalmology, and anesthesia, shout out, my dad and my uncle, are the most competitive because they are the cushiest. The high and paying, my uncle used to do Sudoku at work when he was an anesthesiologist.

9:02Jo:Well, you can have your nice career and your 4th of July barbecue too.

9:05Rob:That's true. Exactly. So very competitive. And also you have to start early. So the fact that Victoria's dad was like, hey, have you considered dermatology? The person who wrote in about this, Christina, was like, that's preposterous. She would have been planning for dermatology for years in advance if that's what she wanted to do.

9:24Jo:Well, in pure show construction. Like based on what we know of Javadi's mom in particular, she has been funneled toward medical specialties probably since like the first time she picked up a rattle. You know, the idea -

9:35Rob:Towards surgery. Right, towards surgery specifically for her mom.

9:38Jo:But the idea that this would be the first time her dad is even broaching the idea of dermatology. Even for him, I don't believe that to be true, but it's gotta happen on shift or else it didn't canonically happen.

9:47Rob:It didn't really happen at all. Okay, our listener Evan wrote in. This goes back to your question about Dr. Robbie slicing that woman's leg open. Evan wrote in with a topical Olympics-themed email to say, Lindsay Vaughn almost lost her leg per The Athletic today. The doctor that saved her leg did the same thing Dr. Robbie did with the woman that unfortunately did lose her leg. Quoting Ms. Vaughn, quote, he cut open both sides of my leg, kind of filleted open, so to speak, to let it breathe. I gasped when I read the article. Cheers to the pit. How do you feel about it?

10:15Jo:See, I don't think that's exactly what Dr. Robbie did. I think what Robbie did was, I'm going to slice this open to prove my point. Yeah. Not because this medically needs to happen right now. It's like, look what's inside more than it is an active measure of treatment.

10:26Rob:I don't know what it means to make a leg breathe.

10:28Jo:Well, to me, it reminds me of last season. Yeah. The burn victim farmer who Whitaker has now become the surrogate substitute for. He, they were slicing into to relieve some of the internal pressure. That sounds a lot more like Lindsey Fon's case to me.

10:42Rob:OK, so you're still out on Robbie having sliced this woman's now non-existent leg.

10:47Jo:I'm mixed out on that. I am out on doing elaborate ski jumps on blown ACLs. don't do that.

10:53Rob:I think we all agree on that, about that. All right. Jacob wrote in with a very sensible question, which is this. If Westbridge, which is the hospital that went down earlier in the day, if Westbridge loses access to their digital system and can't see patients, but the pit loses access voluntarily and can, does that make sense? The pit can still handle the patients that Westbridge can't take, but both of them have their systems down. Do we understand why that would work?

11:18Jo:We don't.

11:18Rob:Okay.

11:20Jo:The doctors there just, you know, they're soft. They're not built. They're not ready for this. They're not of this life.

11:27Rob:They haven't been through what the pit's been through. All right. Several people wrote in to let us know in terms of your condiment hoarding habit, perhaps. Do you want to call it that? It's mild.

11:37Jo:I want to be very clear about this. It's select condiments only. It's as a needs case basis.

11:44Rob:Okay. In the container, the container store special container that you bought to house them. How deep into that container is the pile of condiment packet?

11:53Jo:Well, they settle at the bottom, so it's necessarily quite deep. Is it like one packet? It's more the little plastic containers than it is the packets. I'm rarely saving a packet because most of what you will find in a packet can be replaced.

12:06Rob:A little ramekin of something.

12:07Jo:No, no, not a ramekin. Again, it's like a little dipping sauce container of a kind. That's what I meant, like a little plastic.

12:13Rob:Okay, all right. Anyway, if you don't...

12:15Jo:Deeper than it should be is the answer, but still.

12:17Rob:I mean, you don't one can request in delivery, no utensils, no napkins, no condiments. And they just a bunch of people recommended. I often do.

12:26Jo:Yeah. My problem. If I can, you know, if we can just get through it, please top to bottom today, I will request that for the plastic where I don't need it. I'm eating at home. Don't even worry about it. But I do need five sauces because the same part of me that wants to pack three days worth of extra clothes on every trip also wants to make sure that I am appropriately sauced. So that's how you end up in my situation with my just general deal, Joe. I'm sorry.

12:50Rob:You're a very special person. Thank you. I want to look at the camera for this one. Tagalog, right?

12:55Jo:You did it.

12:56Rob:I did it. How I pronounced last time, I chose not to go back and listen to it. Here's what I know. I was very nervous to mispronounce Tamil, which I might have just mispronounced. I blacked out. Did not pronounce a word correctly. Never happened before in a podcast. Will never happen again. Never. A lot of people had a lot of thoughts about it. So I just thought that I would correct that.

13:14Jo:It's an occupational hazard. I'm proud of you.

13:16Rob:Thank you so much. And then last but not least, we got several responses to the email I read about Langdon's recovery program. Oh, we sure did. Yeah, yeah. And so something I just want to quote from that email that I read last week that I did not include, which is that person wrote, every recovery journey is different. And a lot of people wrote in to say, hey, man, talking about speed running recovery is a deterrent for some people, et cetera, et cetera. So the point is there's no like one way to do this. Our emailer last week knew that I just did him a disservice by not including that part in talking about it.

13:51Rob:But that's just something I do. I would never want to deter someone from getting the help that they need, obviously. And so that is something I want to say.

13:57Jo:I think there are a lot of right paths. There are a lot of right answers. Again, the way Langdon is going about it, not just in the speed running, but like what it actually means to make amends and apologize to people and like the process, I still find a little wonky. I'm not even out so much as like, does this guy know what he is trying to accomplish? Because there are times where it doesn't seem to be so.

14:17Rob:What do you feel like he was trying to accomplish with Santos inside of this episode?

14:20Jo:I think this was like breaking the ice a little bit, right? Santos has been ducking him all day, even more aggressively than Robbie, I would say. And so this was his opportunity to just like get in a room. Like, let's thaw this out just a little bit. And I think we saw very quickly, not only, you know, in that room, there's going to be lots of elephants in it anytime Langdon is involved. We saw earlier this season Whitaker jump at like almost reflexively jump at requesting the meds so that Langdon wouldn't do it. Right. That's kind of one thing. And then there's Santos being like, yeah, let's get a let's get a blood alcohol level check.

14:52Jo:Oh, rehab. Care to guess. Yeah. Let me know. It's a good idea. Let's let's investigate that. Like it's clearly so different and so pointed with her and they just have so much more to resolve.

15:01Rob:Absolutely. And like I don't begrudge her her resentments. Is she communicating them in the most healthy way possible? No. I understand also that I am very much in the bag for this Langdon's character archetype, which is someone who's on a recovery arc, not just like substance recovery, but someone who's like on a character arc that's trending from a problem towards redemption or redemptive arc is actually the more economical way to say that. And so this is my favorite kind of archetype. And so I tend to be very soft and forgiving on those characters because I like watching that story. But for folks at home, and we did get some emails about this, who were like, Joanna, Langdon is not, don't let him off the hook so easy.

15:45Rob:That's what Rob's here for. Rob's here to hold Langdon's feet to the fire, and I'm here to forgive him too readily, too fast.

15:51Jo:Well, and to your point about seeing this as that sort of arc, the initial steps are almost always some version of this, which is a little clumsy. You can see the intent of wanting to do some version of the right thing. And also the ways in which those characters go about it are often wrong or blundering or they're misreading a situation or they're trying to do too much too fast, like Langdon is here. And so that's all part of the journey. It's just about the follow through and what he learns from it. And that's, I think, what we haven't necessarily seen from Langdon yet is all of these weird false starts of conversations that people don't want to have.

16:23Jo:What is he taking away from that other than not this time, but that next time the helicopter shows up, I'm sure it'll work. Tomorrow. But Robbie will already be gone. He will be gone.

16:33Rob:Okay. We're already talking about the episode. I told you we were going to start in one place and then I zagged and made you start with Langdon. But let's wrap up this sort of like Langdon, Joy, Santos section. We got a really great email about this because no matter what, Santos was going to be prickly, to use a word. As she always is. As she always is. But when Langdon, if Langdon ever came back, she was going to be prickly about it. No matter what, he was going to be feeling sort of like raw and uncomfortable about it. But this idea that like both of them are on the back foot because they were both rattled quite recently inside of this day by their superiors.

17:11Rob:So this is what our listener Tim wrote in to say, Dr. Ahashimi has completely deflated Dr. Santos with one offhand comment about completing R2 due to slow charting. On the other hand, Dr. Robbie has inflated Whitaker with confidence, with a good catch and double fist bump. Dr. Robbie shook Dr. Langen with three seconds saying, I don't know if I want you in my ER on the rooftop, in the rooftop confidential scene in the same pumped up Mel King back with like, you're one of the best, right? So the point of Tim's email was the tremendous impact your Al Hashimis and your Robby's and your Abbott's, these leaders can have.

17:46Rob:Tim was writing because he's a teacher and he was just sort of like, the way in which you can just sort of like completely deflate a person who's looking up to you versus inflate them and sort of stuff. So I like, I want to give Robby, you know, I was, I'm quick to be critical of Robbie when he when I see him being harder in some of his female staff members. But I will say with Santos and with Mel King in recent episodes, like and this was an excellent Dr. Robbie episode because we'll talk about the Howard case. But like this is that is like perfect place for him to shine. Right. But I want to make sure I give him credit for for when he does stuff like that.

18:24Rob:But yeah. But the idea that like both Langdon and Santos were just sort of shook to their core and then you put them in a room together when they already have, you know, a fraught history, just a recipe for joy to be doing the like looking back and forth, like gif-able reaction. What do you think?

18:42Jo:It's a little combustible for sure. But look, there's unquestionably truth in the idea of anyone you look up to in any walk of life. Like the smallest gesture from them can mean a lot. The smallest comment that's a criticism can completely tear you down. Right. Just a real thing that I think everybody goes through. What's interesting about Robbie is I feel like he's very deliberate about the praise, right? It's like when good things come up, when Whitaker has a break in the case, when Mel is expressing some doubt, like he's so thoughtful about how he is expressing affirmation in those moments.

19:10Jo:When the bad stuff comes, it's like emotional and lashing out. And it's coming from a place of like, I am not dealing with my shit and thus you must deal with my shit.

19:18Rob:I feel dysregulated. Absolutely. Absolutely.

19:21Jo:And I think Dr. Alashimi is a different case where her comportment with Santos is like she's saying a lot of the right things, but in the wrong order. And so coming out of the gate with you don't want to flunk this year and have to repeat it and then circling back with some of the affirmation that she maybe needed all along. It's like if those exchanges had just happened in a different order, it would feel completely different. But they happened in the way they did. And Santos has been kind of in a tailspin for hours as a result.

19:47Rob:You had mentioned me before I watched this episode. You watched it before I did. And you were like, there is a chance to talk about hot doctors once again. So here's a couple of things I want to say. Number one, thank you to all of our listeners and strangers on the internet who got excited about our like hot doctor moments from the pit. I do want to do a listener suggestion list, but I don't want to do it this week, maybe next week. But I just want to give people the opportunity to write in. We've been getting suggestions on the TikTok comments and the Instagram comments, you know, drsidebanks at gmail.com.

20:16Rob:but we are going to do like a what's the listener version of this list. The leader right now seems to be season one, Dr. Abbott, donating blood while like saving lives, you know, at the same time.

20:27Jo:Well, you guys in general, absolutely feral for Dr. Abbott. And we support you. I mean, freak responsibly, please. But man, the response has been overwhelming.

20:38Rob:How does one freak irresponsibly?

20:39Jo:You don't even want to know.

20:40Rob:Okay, great.

20:41Jo:Trust me, the information regarding these ships is already out there. if you deign to go looking for it.

20:46Rob:Okay. You told me that there would be an opportunity to talk about hot doctors once again, contextually inside of this episode. I assume you were talking about Jackie and Jackie and Dr. Langdon. Is that what you wanted to talk about?

20:58Jo:Yeah, her doctor's fucking hot. I don't know if you heard. Although, not to also make amendments to your list, but I was curious in the spirit of the things that you put on the list, Dr. Ellis comforting Mel in the way that she did of like, this is not a conversation. this is a monologue. I mean, it hit a lot of the similar notes, I will say.

21:18Rob:I would say the number one, and we don't need to make this a recurring bit, but I would say the number one moment in this episode would be Dana chewing out a cop on the phone. Oh, sure. That really did it for me.

21:27Jo:The ACAB return to your body. Yeah, absolutely.

21:29Rob:Flooded back in. On the joy front inside of this storyline with Jackie with a CK and Jackie with a Q, what I really loved when Langdon is trying to teach her while Santos is like sneering at him, when he asked her about, you know, something about tying off a suture or whatever. I believe she repeated the lesson that Donnie had like just taught her a couple hours ago. And I just like really liked that. That's a great catch. Immediate callback. Also, Joy Rising.

21:57Jo:Oh my God, what a Joy episode.

21:58Rob:Eidetic memory from Joy. Incredible. Save the day. You were right to call out that Whitaker would not be the guy to get the board. It seems like you got a blurry photo and also a selfie. I don't know how you, like, I understand how one could accidentally take a number of selfies. But the fact that he got the board and then somehow turned, like flipped the camera to get a then get a selfie. Well, I thought it was reverse.

22:19Jo:I thought he clearly had been taking a selfie previously, accidentally got a blurry selfie of himself, then got a blurry photo of the board, accomplished nothing.

22:28Rob:Do you think he sent that selfie to his farm wife?

22:31Jo:I really hope not. OK, I really hope there isn't like a Whitaker thirst trap of him in the break room when no one was in there for the farm wife. Amy? Yes. It's Amy.

22:40Rob:Yeah, I guess we don't need to call our farm work. I mean, we still can. Okay. Anything else you want to say about Joy? Joy rising is what I would like to say.

22:47Jo:I will say this. We missed this last week, and it was flagged to us by a listener named Steve with the screenshot of as, you know, it's being announced that we're shutting all down the system, all the technology. Everyone is understandably looking panicked and harried down the line. And then you see Joy looking like it's the happiest day of her life somehow. Just like the sick Joy on her face. I mean, I'm just I appreciate her more by the episode. I'm so glad she finally had just like more to do and more involvement. And this is maybe her best episode yet.

23:17Rob:As as Ogilvy reaches like new levels of villainy inside of the show, cartoonish villainy. I really don't think anyone is this terrible of a person, but we can discuss. Let's go back to the very beginning of this episode. The Robbie handoff, what resentment he feels to Dr. Al-Hashimi for not being given warning, not being called into that meeting. You anticipated he would not handle it well. How did you feel like he handled it?

23:43Jo:I was actually glad they even had this exchange at all because this felt like the kind of thing you would get a reaction shot of Robbie and then would stew for three hours and then they would talk about it. So even the fact that it's out in the open by Dr. Robbie standards, that's a win.

23:56Rob:Healthy communication, Rob says.

23:58Jo:At least straightforward communication.

24:00Rob:I will say later in the episode when she's talking about doing, you know, Brooke and Wendy who in the sudden onset of blindness that you talked about, she's talking about doing an experimental sort of procedure and he's second guessing her. He of slicing legs open is second guessing her. He's like, there's only room for one cowboy. Two if my boyfriend Abbott is here, not three. This town ain't big enough for the two of us. Exactly. but he gives her a very snide like whatever you're patient I will be here for the fallout which Princess like snickers at like she really enjoyed it but I was just like Robbie shouldn't shouldn't you be excited about like these experimental procedures you love this shit

24:41Jo:I mean it's a huge moment for Dr. Alashimi again she of like I've never been named in a lawsuit and she's willing to go to this like dramatic length with a real risk of something happening with this blood clot medication in order to best suit the urgency of the moment. And again, it's just like, there's so many little things in this episode in terms of how the doctors are responding to their patients that I think work really well or really poorly, depending on how they're framed. Dr. Elashimi somehow pulls together an infographic in real time while all the technology is down. I don't know where that came from, but it's a good way to represent like, there's a real chance that this either does nothing or you end up worse for it, or like you could die just from trying to repair your vision in one eye.

25:23Jo:And at the same time, she herself is kind of putting herself out there in a way that we know medicinally she doesn't really do.

25:29Rob:Something I want to, I want to, there's a parallel case that I want to talk about in a second. But I do want to say on the Dr. Al-Hashimi neurology front, we did get some diagnoses from people. And I said in a previous episode that I would save that for last in case people thought those were spoilers. We had a pretty convincing answer, I think, as to what is going on with her. But in case people don't want to know, we're going to touch that last. Sounds good. But in terms of this idea of presenting realities of a case to someone, I think that's more, I mean, I think what you're saying is right, but there's also this like, what are the sort of brutal realities for Howard inside of his case here?

26:10Rob:We'll come back to Howard, which seems to be like a real centerpiece case for this episode and perhaps a couple more going forward. But the Jackson family, I was really struck by. Right. Because, you know, they they get to have this conversation with with a woman who whose daughter went through what Jackson seems to be going through, which is like in your early 20s, an emergence of schizophrenia or bipolar. I have a couple friends with bipolar and I will say that like I growing up I thought like a bipolar diagnosis meant like you know you could not function and that is deeply untrue for my friends who are well like on great medication for it.

26:51Rob:but this this dose of reality where this woman is talking about her daughter and she says she was studying architecture now she's a cashier at giant eagle and living at home and it's struggle but there's also laughter and love but i just like really love that because she's presenting it as a like this isn't the end of the road for your son there is like a uh like there's a future for him there's a future for you as a family but the fact that like he's in law school like perhaps that is not, these are the realities of this diagnosis, which is not, it's over, but it's like, but here is the real path going forward, you know?

27:23Rob:And as someone who is not a doctor, definitely not a mental health professional, if our list, if listeners disagree with that, please let us know. But I just, I thought that that was like a really, and you know, that's true for Howard here, the realities of what a surgery would look like for you. Here's the reality of what this, this medication, this procedure for the blindness in the eye looks like of like, we have a solution going forward. It's not an easy one. It's not a miracle save. Roxy. It's not, you know, what are we going to do for Roxy? What can we do for Roxy? And I just thought that that was like an interesting refracted storyline across these various cases.

28:00Jo:I think especially with this one with Jackson's parents and yeah, Nicole, the woman you're talking about who's brought in to like consult with them. Bring something to the table that no one in the pit can, which is yes, these doctors and these student doctors and these nurses can tell you about care or what happens if it's this diagnosis or that or kind of like broad strokes, what the future might look like.

28:18Rob:Right.

28:18Jo:What they can't tell you is like, what does it feel like when this happens to your family? Right. And so having someone who can speak so specifically to that, which is ultimately what they're wondering in that moment, even if they don't fully realize it's what they're wondering in that moment, I thought was just like a great way to kind of proactively answer a lot of their questions and like bring something to the table that like Javadi is just not going to be able to do.

28:39Rob:Bless. No. And like in conjunction with, you know, something in the pit, we've talked about this before, the pit is always trying to educate us on various things. As the younger doctors there are being educated, we at home are being educated. And so last week in the case of Alana, the sexual assault survivor, what are the outside resources? And similarly in this episode, when we get a baby Jane Doe update, The guy from PEDS is like, have you tried CYF, I think is the acronym, right? So like these are like, what can we do here in the hospital? And then who are the people that we can pull in with very specific, you know, a specific kind of resource that helps outside of the diagnosis, the medication, the, you know, procedure, the et cetera, et cetera.

29:27Rob:Completely. I love the PIT for that. I think it's great.

29:31Jo:I mean, it's such a bigger network than I think even a lot of us realize. Oh, definitely. Yeah, the thing that the pit does well is not even just outside the hospital, but within the hospital, right? The difference between the ED and peds is like there's a moat there as far as like how do we get baby Jane Doe into a room and laying out that like she's too healthy to be admitted as like a sick baby, but also risks infecting the other babies. But also there's no parent to take her home right now. And so like the what do you do with that quagmire, obviously worth digging into. Sounds like the answer is she's just going to hang out for a while.

30:01Rob:The entire season.

30:02Jo:Seems like.

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31:31Rob:In terms of like what I told you, I wrote in my notes, panic at the discharge. Like we've got Joy crushing it. Antoine and Larry trying to rise to the occasion, doing their best. But I love this for them. Like these are Antoine and Larry, the like med techs have been around in the background both seasons. And here's like a moment for them to just sort of like be a bit more front and center. I love how annoyed Jesse specifically is with them. And I looked up how old the actor played Jesse is, 47. So I feel like he is someone who could have, you know, like you've got Abbott and Al Hashimi and Robbie and Dana who are all like, we used to do this with paper.

32:11Rob:We know how to do this. And I think Jesse is in that demo as well. Absolutely. Let's get it together, guys. Of the like, here's how we're going to handle this. And there's a lot that like this form goes here and these clipboards go here that like like most medical jargon on the show, I'm just going to let wash over me. It's not my job to know what the abbreviation for psych is or whatever it is on the board.

32:31Jo:The fourth clipboard rack. I simply couldn't tell you.

32:34Rob:Cannot. When they were asking about the medication and Robbie's like, Megan Nord, clinical pharmacist. And she's like, we got you like a real like Captain America. We got your back moment. That was bizarre to me.

32:49Jo:A goofy-ass moment even for the pit.

32:51Rob:I agree.

32:53Jo:Why is she off in the distance? It's so weird. Can she not get a medium shot? Right. You know, it's like every time they talk to her, she's across the room for some reason. We got your back. Yeah.

33:03Rob:Really good. Princess panicking. Princess being put in charge because Dan is stuck in the room, right? And Prince is like, I did not ask for this.

33:10Jo:No one wants Princess to be the charge nurse less than Princess. Absolutely. And we support her.

33:15Rob:Our listener, Jennifer, who works at emergency management for an undisclosed city, was talking about the realities of planning for cybersecurity and how oftentimes that this is an increasing part of emergency management planning, which is not something I really fully understood exists. to what Jennifer says in her laments in her email, nobody knows that my job exists. But that most of the cybersecurity incidents are about sort of the tech side of it and not this analog side of it. So she said that she like, she said, last December, we did a cybersecurity focus drill in our emergency operations center with a similar premise.

33:52Rob:I was the one pulling out whiteboards and reminding folks that they could still use offline versions of things like Word and save them on an individual computer. This is our first time really trying that type of scenario. and the younger folks who are very technology dependent were definitely lost. This is a highly realistic gap for them to be covering on the show and I love seeing it. So I like, I'm just, I love the idea of like across the country, drills like this are being run. Oh yeah. And the generational divide is just like widening like crazy. We hear from so many

34:20Jo:medical professionals who have been through cyber attacks at their hospitals who are actively going through them right now as the show is going on. It's like insane that this is just like a fact of life in this line of work. And also we should say, like, in particular, we don't know the source of all this, the origin. Maybe we'll never know. Maybe it's not really relevant to the show. Right. But the like ransomware attacks on hospitals, just like fucking diabolical scum of the earth shit.

34:44Rob:Absolutely.

34:44Jo:Like, even if the only result is that the hospital becomes less efficient that day, that will cause people to die. That will have like massive repercussions. So like just really gross.

34:54Rob:Absolutely. how did you feel about the way in which the sort of Santos Al Hashimi AI check-in was handled inside of this episode

35:04Jo:I like that Al Hashimi is not just like caught off guard that she's one of the people who understands how to go to an analog system like that adaptability I think is important otherwise she's just a spokesperson for AI right so Santos gets her barb in yeah Al Hashimi has to eat shit a little bit right and then

35:19Rob:Robbie smirks

35:20Jo:yeah Robbie smirks everyone gets their moment and now let me tell you about this weird pronged clipboard system in which you either pick from these cartoons or those cartoons.

35:28Rob:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. All right, let's talk about Howard. So Craig Shanick is the actor who is playing Howard here.

35:35Jo:I thought he was great too.

35:36Rob:I thought he was so good. I've got two actors to call out in this episode and he's one of them and like I just thought this was like incredibly well done with the exception of again I think Ogilvy is being asked to be just demented levels of nasty, you know?

35:53Jo:Well, walk me through that because I thought this episode gave him a slightly different kind of cover, if that makes sense. He just seems so oblivious to the effects that his words have on other people and like how blunt he's being in a way that some people are, right? Like there's a reasonable explanation for these things in some cases. And it's like him bringing up the zoo is not intended to be like a shot at Howard. It's like, oh, I read about this and I thought it was important to this conversation. Like the fact that he's almost naive is the wrong word, but like doesn't understand how blunt he's being, I think puts him in a slightly different space than maybe like, fuck Louie, that guy's an alcoholic and he died, you know?

36:34Rob:I guess, but like, as you highlighted before, there's this weird contradiction inside of his character where like sometimes he has social awareness and social skills. It's true. Sometimes when it comes to the caretaking of more vulnerable patients, he's just like vicious. Oh, for sure. I did think it was interesting to have Dr. McKay involved in this case because last season, Dr. Collins sort of called out Dr. McKay about some unexamined fatphobia inside of her treatment of a patient. So for McKay to be the one sort of like taking that lesson and passing it on to Ogilvy, I thought was like a good thread across seasons.

37:10Rob:But I just, I think this performance is incredible. Obviously, fatphobia is a thing that exists inside of the medical world. It's a really important thing to talk about. Even Garcia is like this sidebar conversations that they're having. Like Garcia, who's one of the like most blunt people is like treating this conversation with sensitivity, which I thought was really, really interesting.

37:35Jo:I think that part of it with Ogilvy is so important too. It's like literally every doctor in the room is saying you can't do this. Like regardless of what you're aware of or not, like you can't do it. It's just like point blank. It's not acceptable. Right. And so that then, like, it is a learning moment, I think, for Ogilvy. We can hope. But yeah, you're right. Like, even Garcia's, like, the frank truths of, like, the almost, like, 50-50 proposition of what surgery would mean. Exactly. And kind of going beat by beat through this episode with Howard. And most of these doctors who are in this room are spending almost the whole episode with him, right?

38:07Jo:That's, like, an incredible amount of focus from what we usually see on The Pit.

38:10Rob:And the roster of who's in the room. Completely. It has Robbie's focus for almost the entire episode.

38:15Jo:And it's all about like what is different about Howard's circumstances and how he got here is a crucial part of that formula and him laying out like this wasn't a thing that happened overnight. Like this this is a this is a life story that brings you into these room on these terms. And then how that affects like he can't flip over like a normal patient. And that creates risk, right? Like he can't go into their CT machine. That creates complications. And so they're just constantly having to come up with workarounds. And I think what I'm most interested in is the way that Howard and that actor plays that.

38:44Jo:Like, it's almost like he has tears in his eyes the whole episode. Oh, yeah, because of the shame. That's what I'm saying. It's not just the pain, but like he's constantly apologizing and embarrassed and the shame of that.

38:53Rob:And we've talked about this before, how the pit has done a really good job with this examination of shame and how it can keep people from getting the help that they need in the first place. For sure. And how people wind up in the ED because they've let it go to a certain point because of the shame. And so for, again, this performance of this constant apologizing and, you know, just like, you know, and then again, Dr. Robbie's best version of his bedside manner coming through and his like reassurance and like, this is what we do. We got to, you know, we can handle it. Abbott being like, let's go.

39:29Rob:Like, we're going to go on a road trip. Like, you know, I just think that I'm really interested to see how this case develops.

39:37Jo:At the risk of being glib about the road trip, Howard is a natural with the speak and spell iPad situation, like on it, cracking jokes, doing the whole thing. Why is there a road trip button on the iPad?

39:49Rob:Here's my question.

39:50Jo:Okay.

39:51Rob:In all caps in my notes, it says, excuse me, where was this machine for Harlow?

39:55Jo:I had the exact same thought.

39:56Rob:I lost my—here's the thing. I understand what the pit is trying to do with Harlow, and I saw some, like, there's been some really good content going around of people who have experienced what Harlow has experienced inside of various institutions. And so they're highlighting a real problem and a real flaw in the system. And I think that that is important. I think it's tough to have in the same episode the resolution of the Harlow case next to the very device that could have saved her literal hours inside of the ED. I'm baffled by this, honestly.

40:30Jo:It's not ideal. It's not the most respectful. And if the pit had wanted to engage with like Harlow is clearly fluent in ASL, but like the reading and writing would be difficult for whatever reason. Like that's something that we've gotten lots of emails about, lots of comments about like that. You can't just assume clear translation from ASL to English. They're not. It's not the same thing in any capacity. That's not what the show is doing.

40:51Rob:Right.

40:51Jo:Clearly, she's able to read Santos's note. And so one of two things needed to happen. Santos needed to sit in the room and actually write down back and forth with Harlow what's happening or bust out the iPad, which could have saved this woman so much time and so much pain. That being said, how called out did you feel?

41:10Rob:I mean, I know you've got excellent posture, but how called out did you feel by? Oh, no. This is how I use my laptop as I work from home and I'm on the laptop all the time and my head's constantly bowed down and this is an issue for me. How did you feel about that?

41:26Jo:I am not prepared to answer the question of how many hours are you at your laptop at this time?

41:31Rob:Okay. Here's my question. Where do we get one of those trigger point injections? We'd love it. Yeah.

41:37Jo:Can we just get a guy, someone in the Spotify offices just when you walk in every day?

41:41Rob:Shoot me up. But apparently, apparently the effects will last months. Amazing. Great. Give us like a quarterly injection in the trigger point to help us with our tech neck. I would appreciate it.

41:56Jo:Seriously. Can we talk about Roxy?

41:58Rob:I was just about to say. This is the other actor I want to call out.

42:01Jo:Yeah, I mean, a plot line that's just been returning and returning and returning and keeps paying off in all kinds of ways. I think one of the moments in this episode that like really and truly broke me I cried. is the way that Shabana Aziz delivers when they're talking about who's getting ice cream and who's allowed to have ice cream. The question of like, is Roxy allowed to have ice cream? she can have anything she wants. And it's like, again, just like the look on Shabana Aziz's face as Javadi in this moment is like, my stomach just dropped completely as she said it. And she exchanged like the briefest look with Roxy afterwards.

42:33Jo:And I think one of the reasons this worked for me is the pit works so well as drama because every time they walk into a room, some people usually know what's going on and some people don't. And usually it's the doctors and the nurses are like, we know what this is immediately. We've got to treat it. We've got to jump into action. the patients are constantly asking questions. This is one of those cases where like Roxy knows and everyone else in her family either doesn't know or doesn't want to accept it. And the way that that kind of positions her with the doctors, I just find to be like one of the richest storylines of this season.

43:04Rob:I both really agree. And also it's a side of slight disagreement, which is another actor I want to call it is John Getz, who is playing her father, Lloyd. And this is just an actor who I have seen in a million things. He's in Social Network, Zodiac. Blood Simple. Don't tell him all the babysitters to head, which I've seen one million times. This is a Bay Area, he's like a San Francisco Bay Area character actor, like legend, right? So he shows up and I'm like, oh shit, right? Like this is a casting spoiler for me. And like, so just even inside of this episode, the looks that he exchanges with her.

43:36Rob:I'm gonna cry right now. There's like one look that they exchange. And then when they say they're gonna take the kids for ice cream, there's a shot. you don't even see his face you just see roxy looking at him and he and they just exchange a look for a while and it's just sort of like i i know and like the devastation i i burst into tears the devastation of you know watching your child you know there was like i've been feeling quite emotional about this plot line with the kids in the first place and especially the 15 year old like especially the 15 year old it's been like really he's like i don't want to go for ice cream Like I don't, you know, so like he knows some things up, right?

44:20Rob:He doesn't have all the information. But her dad really felt like he knows exactly what this is, which is goodbye. And that just like, it really hurt my feelings. It was really, really, really tough. Yeah.

44:32Jo:And it's just like such a slightly different frame of something we have seen on the pit, right? Which is we've seen parents say goodbye to their teenage children. Sure. Of like they have their whole life ahead of them. And that's a very particular kind of grief.

44:43Rob:Or like even younger children. For sure. Absolutely.

44:46Jo:Younger children, you know, like young kids and babies even in some instances. And here it's like it hits not it's not even like harder or anything like that. It just hits in a different way when it's like Roxy is supposed to have kind of her life on course. Right. Like she has her family. She has her life. She has her kids. Now it's just like the living. And even that is being kind of robbed from her.

45:07Rob:I'm not supposed to outlive. I know. Yeah. The doctrine of double effect, which Robbie brings up when McKay and Victoria are asking about this ethical principle of palliative care. Once again, this is a the more you know moment from the pit. But like I did not know about this and I thought it was like really. And, you know, and again, this is like a really good Robbie episode, like the way that Noah Wiley delivers this information, this idea of like we are going to treat the pain. And if in treating the pain, the patient dies, he says like, sometimes that's the best thing that can happen. Right.

45:41Rob:I just I I think the storyline is, you know, this is like what our third episode with Roxy. Something like that. I think so. The storyline is being like parceled out in a really impactful, important way. And again, really like a real education for people at home. Any thoughts you have on this?

45:59Jo:I think especially for the contrast with almost everything else that comes through the ED, which is most of the cases, if they're like really critical cases, it's how do we keep this person alive?

46:08Rob:Yeah. And just even the introduction of the idea that like there are things that are worse than death, right?

46:13Jo:Like there are outcomes here that are worse and more painful for everybody involved. And it's something that obviously if you work in medicine, you know that it's always fascinating to me. like there've been all these surveys done of doctors who like almost like overwhelmingly, a lot of people who work in medicine do not like they want DNRs on their medical record. They do not want to be kept alive in certain states of being. And I think it's just like you've seen so much of not even Roxy's case, but even other kinds of ones in which people are shells of themselves. And Roxy is feeling that in like slow motion almost as she's losing mobility, She's losing agency.

46:48Jo:And so it's really not a question of how this ends for her. I think, again, some of the people involved clearly know where it's headed. She clearly knows where it's headed. It's just about the how and how much they listen to her along the way and kind of what dignity she's afforded in the way that across the ED right now, we see doctors trying to approach their patients with that sort of respect.

47:08Rob:That was very beautifully said. That brings me to the wrap up of Alana's story, right? I mean, this is the other moment.

47:16Jo:Yeah.

47:17Rob:We've been asking for Emma to have like something a bit more to do. And we didn't we were not privy to whatever conversation she had with Alana to get her back in the room. But Alana saying like she's a good nurse. Yeah. You know, and Dana being like she's learning. But like, you know, I'm curious what that conversation was. And it feels like something a bit more substantive than what we've seen from Emma so far away.

47:40Jo:Well, I'm going through the mental gymnastics of I don't know if I've ever felt this for a TV character before. I'm proud of Emma. I don't know Emma. She's not even a real person. But it's like because we had been only seeing her be introduced to new things on the job on her first day here in the pit, even just knowing that she did that well, even seeing just like the way she leaves the room, which is not just like now it's your time to move on. But this kind of like parting note she has with Alana. I can't help but be proud of her in a way. I don't know. It's a weird thing to say about a fictional character, but here I am.

48:13Rob:I think that's really, that's lovely. Dana's proud of her too. Yeah. We got a lot of emails from listeners talking about their experiences through something like this on one side or another of the process. I did want to read, I'm not going to use anyone's name here, but I did want to read a part of one of the emails we got that says, Joe mentioned how long an invasive, the FRE seems on the pit. And I want to let both of you know that the pit actually softens how long and invasive it actually is. They can last hours. So seeing Dana get through so much of the examination in less than an hour was a bit of a fairy tale.

48:49So like for dramatic purposes

48:51Rob:or whatever, the pit is like, we're not going to do this for four episodes. We're going to do this for like one and a bit. You know, Alana coming back in, Alana rejecting the plan B, but getting all like us hearing like all the things that she's going to have to do, the medications that she's going to have to go through to take care of herself for this thing that was done to her is a huge part of it. And of course, Dana's absolute explosion in finding out that the previous kit that she put to be picked up was not picked up and then showing the cop out on the phone.

49:24Jo:That's kind of the counterpoint to like, this is in a lot of ways the best version of this process, not just in terms of like the expedited process you're talking about for what can be so much more drawn out and so much more invasive and traumatic. But even just like having someone like Dana in the first place, which like I'm glad you were here today. I mean, just fucking shut me down right there. But the chaser for that being all of this went in this moment, as well as you can ask for the worst day of your life. And now you go to the refrigerator and they didn't even pick up the last one. And it's like, it's, it's a huge gut punch.

49:58Jo:And obviously you understand Dana's fury, But it's just like even when the person involved does all the right things, theoretically, like the systems are still fucked. Right. Like whether that's this one in particular or the larger things we talk about every week with the show as far as like who is allowed in, who's not, who's paying for what and how. Like everything is messed up. And so like all you can do is try to be Dana in this moment. And even then you like Dana isn't failing, but the system is failing. People like Alana, if not her.

50:26Rob:I think the thing that underlines a lot of what you're talking about in terms of the doctors and their interactions with patients comes, they said the thing inside of Samira's interaction with this guy, George, who's come in for this test. And he confesses like, actually, I didn't even have the thinly veiled excuse I usually use to come in. I just kind of wanted to see you and talk to you. And he talks about how she's encouraged him to get out. He's like, I've joined. Yes. What is it? lawn boiling i think it was lawn bowling yeah great um community matters that's what is said here and this idea that like for so many of these people for for a george or for a louis who like you know our guy digby disappears for a while because he goes in to visit with louis like there are certain people who don't have um the community that even that roxy has around her inside of this episode that Jackson has inside of this episode.

51:24Rob:So like, this is a thing that the doctors of the pit do as well, which is be the community for the lonely. Howard's like, you know, I have an estranged sister that I don't talk to and that's it. And so he's like out here on a raft by himself inside of this experience. So for Abbott to like turn on the buddy charm for him is like a huge thing that these doctors do that is above and beyond the simple diagnosis thing that they do.

51:50Jo:Oh, completely. I mean, the emotional labor in this kind of work is just off the charts. And that's in addition to, again, the precision they have to work with in terms of their medicine and the urgency with which you have to treat these patients. Like it's fair and completely within bounds that the pit is constantly preoccupied with like who in this ER has PTSD at a given time and who's flaring up? Because it's like, how could you not, frankly?

52:11Rob:With all the things you're holding.

52:12Jo:Everything you're holding together.

52:14Rob:Samira, you mentioned that she and Al Hashimi have like a sort of where is my career going conversation inside of a very busy day that you were very skeptical of.

52:23Jo:I felt like I could have waited till tomorrow.

52:25Rob:There are people do take break. Like for all the Whitakers, like there are no breaks here. Like Langdon's in the break room. Like people are in the break room.

52:33Jo:You know what I mean? Absolutely take the break. But I don't know if you're this way, but like if we have low stakes, meaningless work in the grand scheme of things. When I'm ready for break time, I'm like, I don't want to talk to anybody. I want to sit here and sip my icy beverage, a crispy Diet Coke. Yeah. Don't even. It can wait. Whatever you got going on, it can wait.

52:53Rob:I've never seen you put those boundaries up around you, Rob. But I also like.

52:56Jo:Well, that's me when I get home. Oh, I got you. After a three pod day. Again, our life is very hard. Yeah.

53:01Rob:Please don't talk to me. I will not be talking to you.

53:03Jo:I simply will not.

53:04Rob:I woke up this morning. My throat hurts so much. And I was like, why? And I was like, oh, maybe five hours of yammering into a microphone yesterday. Seems possible. as possible.

53:11Jo:We'll get you checked out. We'll get Dr. Mohan in here post-haste. Thanks so much.

53:15Rob:She mentioned, so she mentions that she had been part of a study about racial disparity in healthcare. We saw this in season one with the sickle cell patient, right? That Samira was like, hey, wait a minute, et cetera. We get a dig in at the Trump White House. You'll love to see it.

53:29Jo:This is where I wish we had the capacity for this pod to do like a graphic across the bottom of the screen for living out with the pit.

53:35Rob:Yeah, living out with the pit, baby.

53:37Jo:Some rainbows, some shooting stars.

53:40Rob:So Al Hashimi's like, geriatric medicine.

53:43Jo:Yeah.

53:43Rob:Why not?

53:44Jo:I did think this came like a little too close on the tail. I agree. Of her comforting the previous patient. Guess what?

53:49Rob:We got a lot to do.

53:51Jo:We do. We got to keep it moving.

53:52Rob:There's only so many hours in the day.

53:52Jo:I did want to talk about Javadi and Ogilvy joining forces for the first time. We're not so different, you and I.

53:58Rob:Sure.

53:59Jo:For one, I just really appreciate the way that them despising each other has led to shockingly good patter and good choreography of these scenes. the way in which they just kind of like wordlessly go their separate ways. I just think like they play incredibly well for a character I like and hate in Ogilvy.

54:16Rob:There was a good comedy bit when they're like, when they sort of bust into the Jackie Jackie tongue room, right?

54:23Jo:Don't go in the tongue room.

54:25Rob:Yeah, the Jackie Jackie tongue room is not where you want to go. But they sort of like bop their heads in like they're the Three Stooges or something like that. And then like also Joy like looks over and she's like, what the hell is going on with you guys? This is what I'm saying.

54:35Jo:It just kind of works with them.

54:37Rob:It was like puppies in a basket of energy.

54:40Jo:I mean, clearly they're aligned as like know-it-alls who are stumped by this weird case. And I got to say, of all the things we've seen in the pit, this is fucking wild, Joe.

54:47Rob:The full-body blister?

54:48Jo:The full-body blister margarita burn. I mean, one is somebody who I appreciate a margarita. Also, if this happened to me, I would be so convinced I was dying. The idea that this is just like you squeeze limes in the sun. Unreal.

55:01Rob:For first chilaquiles and now margaritas are sort of catching strays from the pit. Really, really tough. I think. Look, I'm here to defend margaritas.

55:11Jo:Of course. Even just limes.

55:14Rob:Do you have a margarita recipe?

55:16Jo:I actually don't. I don't do a lot of making them myself. I'm more of like if you're going to make something at home, more of a sangria kind of situation. Let's have it.

55:25Rob:My Aunt Sarah taught me. Three, two, one. Three parts tequila.

55:29Jo:Of course.

55:30Rob:Obviously. Two parts, triple sec or some kind of orange liqueur. And then one part freshly squoze in lime juice. Sorry, freshly what? Squoze in. And then you got to solve the room. No chemically, chemical margarita mix.

55:43Jo:You don't want a vat of anything involved.

55:45Rob:I really don't. I really don't. But that's the vibe.

55:48Jo:But I loved this little side quest. And I love the fact that Joy solves it.

55:52Rob:I just asked a question.

55:53Jo:Literally, like you nerds were out here talking about fringe cases. Why didn't you just have one conversation with this guy?

55:58Rob:All right. Diagnosis, spoiler corner. If you do not want some medical professionals ideas of what's going on with Dr. Al-Hashimi, now's the time to go.

56:07Jo:Bye. To be fair, I don't even know that it required medical professionals. I feel like this is one of those, like the breadcrumbs are so strong. When she's discussing last week, Al-Hashimi and Abbott about -

56:17Rob:Oh, I don't think it's that.

56:18Jo:Oh, you don't think it's that?

56:19Rob:Yeah, but you tell me what you think.

56:20Jo:Well, I feel like the lines are being drawn pretty strongly off of that exchange alone. This idea that she was working in this maternity ward in Kabul. Like there's real life evidence that that maternity ward or one similar to it was the focus of a targeted terror attack. Literally that one, yes. A literal terror attack. And so the idea that she would have in her own way, like a form of PTSD associated with, like we see her zone out for the first time when she hovers over baby Jane Doe, like that would be kind of tying into whatever she's experiencing and getting treatment for.

56:52Rob:Okay, stress trigger. So the diagnosis seems to be absence seizures, which were once upon a time called petite mal seizures, but now are more accurately called absence seizures. This is a description of them. The person suddenly stops all activity without any warning. It may look like he or she is staring off into space or just has a blank look. The eyes may turn upward as an eyelid's flutter. The seizures usually last less than 10 to 20 seconds. The person may be momentarily confused for only a few seconds, but then is back to normal. It happens a lot in children, not very often in adults. It's genetic, but in adults can be triggered by stress.

57:31Rob:So it could be related to PTSD, like onset by PTSD. Yes. The fact that she's had a couple today, I think is real. So it could be the PTSD of baby J. Don't like sending her back to this traumatic thing that happened to her. I don't think the traumatic thing is the inciting incident for this particular case, but that thinking about it could trigger this inside of her. and then just the stress of the day. So is the question, can someone with this condition, even if she's being medicated for it and getting treated for it, can she handle the ED, the ER? You know? And so I don't know the answer to that because I am not a doctor.

58:11Rob:So, you know, drsibangs at gmail.com. But like, I wouldn't be surprised if it's connected to that, but I don't think it's as simple as this is PTSD. It's like a very specific like medical condition.

58:21Jo:I think the PTSD elements are interesting to me because there's so much overlap with everyone else who works in the pit. And so if you're trying to figure out like, what do these people have in common? How can Dr. Elashimi feel more connected to everyone who went through Pit Fest, to Robbie himself? Like being able to share in the burdens of this kind of work, even if it is tapped into something very specific that she went through with Doctors Without Borders, that's like interesting storytelling fodder for me. But it's also interesting if it is something genetic and unavoidable that is like endemic to her, right?

58:52Jo:Something that she is bringing to the table that no other doctor is.

58:54Rob:But the harsh reality of it, given like all the harsh medical realities, is like limiting to her ability to practice this kind of medicine. Which I like, I never want to be, again, I'm not a doctor. I'm not going to tell her. But like, I never want to be someone who says, you can't do this. You're not suited for this. But that is something that the pit is just sometimes like these are the realities of this medical condition.

59:13Jo:It's not even in a judgmental way. It's just like this may not be it for you in the same way that it might not be it for some medical students who come through. It's like you're suited for it or you're not. And I think there were enough early nods, too, from Robbie as far as the environment she was coming through, coming from Dr. Elashimi at the VA, was not an equivalent situation, was not a surgical context for one. And so the idea that she's coming into something completely new, that she's being stretched in a way that she's not necessarily used to.

59:40Rob:And a little hazed by Robbie.

59:42Jo:Clearly. Yeah. And so this has been a terrible initiation for Dr. Elashimi, an incredibly stressful environment. but it's also something that it seems like she's figuring out if she's cut out for this or not.

59:52Rob:Well, that's this episode of The Pit.

59:55Jo:We did it.

59:55Rob:Thank you so much. We will see folks for the industry finale later next week.

1:00:02Jo:Can't believe it. Meanwhile, The Pit finale.

1:00:05Rob:So much. August? Months away, years away from now. We'll be there for a while. No cliffhanger really this week. Just Dana and Robbie regarding the chaos.

1:00:15Jo:You know what though? I did love the chaos. Yeah. One of those things that's like harder to shoot than you think.

1:00:19Rob:Oh, yeah.

1:00:19Jo:Very naturally go freak out about printer paper. I don't think actors are usually very good at that, but I like this one a lot.

1:00:26Rob:Yeah. John Cameron is the director of this episode. He directed Fargo, Legion, and Xena, Warrior, Princess, and Hercules. So he's been at it for a while. Shout out the 90s. All right. We'll see you soon. Bye.

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