'Widows Bay' Episodes 6-7: Generational Trauma

19:17Rob:I just think she's so funny too. And this isn't, this is the least funny of all the episodes, obviously. Like the horror is horrifying. But even then it's still kind of funny. Like her, when she's trying to get the council to kill her husband And she just gives this little clap, like, let's go. Or they're like, go get the children. She's like, my children. I just met them. But the killer, and I know I might be stepping on our joke category that we're going to do later. But my favorite is like the runner through the episode is like, I'm so old. I never thought I would get married at this age. I'm so old.

19:48Rob:I'm so old. And then at one point she says, I am but four and ten and I will wither in my father's attic. So she's supposed to be 14. This like old maid at 14. And I just love, I mean, like obviously Betty Gilpin is not 14, but she was just sort of like, but four and 10. And I was like, wait, did I hear that correctly? So yeah, the whole like, I'm too decrepit to be married at 14 in the 17th. I mean, her life is over. She is a spinster and a traitress, it turns out. I also, I think the moment where I knew, again, not having a lot of Betty Gilpin experience to date, that I was in like really good hands.

20:24is like we open with her, you know, writing some of the diary that we later get the full tie-in as far as the, who is going to kill me, LOL, JK. He's right here in the room. We get the full backstory for that. But the initial diary entry, like the moment, she almost has like a twinkle in her eye the moment she dares to wish to God that her husband be handsome. And I'm like, okay, there's something here that I'm already so interested in. And she delivered, I would say, at every step in this episode.

20:51Rob:Are you aware of the Broadway show O'Mary at all? I'm actually not. Okay. It's a great like bawdy retelling of Mary Todd Lincoln and a fantastic show. Betty Gilpin is the first actor who like took over for the original actor who did the role. And my sister saw Betty Gilpin in this role and she was just like, it's sort of similar to this. Like in the way that you can do physical comedy wearing like so many skirts. Yeah. Like how you navigate it is incredible. I just think she's so talented. I'm so happy she's here. Hamish Linklater is also here. I will say this is not my, I love Hamish Linklater.

21:33Rob:This is not my, he's making a real vocal choice. He is. How would you describe it? Sonorous? Sonorous is a great way to describe it. Is that the word? I don't know. I feel like if I were directing this episode, if I were Ty West. People do often confuse the two of you. It's true. You've got the Beto energy. I've got that Ty West energy. I think you won that one. And he was like, and Hamish came in and he's like, I'm going to go with this. I'd be like, let's run it back and try again. Maybe not. But I mean, he has more to play with in the second episode than he does here. He's just like really the heavy, the villain.

22:09Rob:What did you think of this? It does feel like he's kind of setting up the voice, too, to be like maybe not so jarring if he went from speaking like a normal person to all of a sudden gruff like dust for vocal cords. So, yeah, he is doing like a certain marble mouth thing. Yeah. That did work for me. And I think kind of it makes it, yes, a little bit sinister, but also like a little bit goofy in the way that the show likes to do and the way that they're playing with those extremes with this character, I thought was really nice. And it's a classic thing that Widow's Bay is starting to establish in its pattern, its rhythms, where you have these horrific things that happen or these really terrifying things that happen.

22:49And within an episode or two, we're sending them up already. And to me, Richard Warren is the perfect example of that. He's murdering people left and right or leaving them for dead as human sacrifices, however you want to think about it. Sarah is clearly in danger. His kids are potentially in danger. and yet an episode later we're just doing like fuck you gags with Matthew Rhys and

23:09Rob:eating Vienna sausages it's all ribs and Vienna sausage as far as last meals go yeah where does Vienna sausage out of a can rank for you I mean he seemed to really enjoy himself that's true how did you feel about you know Hamish Linklater as Richard Warren just straight up moaning as he eats Vienna sausages tough really tough so it would be low on my list but who among us hasn't had a Vienna sausage moment. You know, for like a six-year-old boy, it's like, oh my God, Vienna sausages. This is incredible. Can I offer you a one-up for Vienna sausages for a six-year-old boy? Beanie weenies? See, aren't they, are they not basically the same thing?

23:50Rob:I mean, it's merely a Vienna sausage, but you add beans. See, I'm out. I'm not interested in the beanie element of the beanie weenie. Are you serious? We're weenies only around here. That's the quote card. All right, okay. I don't want to step on our like lore category that we have, but we get just a massive lore dump inside of this episode. The well is here, the door in the chair in older guys. How do you feel about like, I feel like you had your theory validated where you were like, when we first saw the chair in front of the rusted metal door and you're like, I feel like that's been there forever.

24:22Rob:I was like, that door looks more modern. You're like, perhaps it was once a wooden hatch and lo and behold, you nailed it. So like, what's your current interpretation of the door chair setup that we get? Well, I mean, clearly this has been done for human sacrifices. I think the trail of blood leading from the chair to the then wooden hatch would suggest it. The hunk of hair. Yeah. I mean, hair is the new teeth in this episode. There's just clumps of hair. We're constantly being told like, oh, it's pretty gross. Yeah. I feel great about all of that paying off. And to me, it feels like, you know, an extension of what Richard Warren is telling, you know, the priests and the townspeople before he's buried of like, this is the covenant that we make here on the island.

25:07And so even though he is being buried underground, someone will continue parts of his work.

25:12Rob:And it seems like, I mean, they were asking for specific instructions. What do we do? Yeah. And so over time, it becomes part of the ritual of the town over time. Is it every year? How many do people on the island living right now? know does like yes a rosemary know like who's doing it this is i think one of the genius parts of this show is the who knows what and who is in on it like there is a small town conspiracy potential story within this one and even tom is kind of a part of that right like we open the show and the way we're conditioned as viewers as like inherent skeptics of the supernatural at least that's where i'm coming to it from i'm like oh you know some of this spooky stuff might be real some of it might be fake i'm kind of like in a what i thought was a tom perspective as far as what the supernatural elements of the island might be but he we get pretty hard confirmation within these episodes that he knows like for a fact if you leave the island as as a native-born person you will die like my son is locked here in a hell prison yeah he at least believes like having seen whatever it was that happened with his wife and we get more information there you know he at least believes it enough to not risk it with Edvin, for sure.

26:24And so this is a thing that he firmly believes, and yet to everyone else in the world is downplaying it, don't worry about it, that's an old wives' tale, etc., etc. And so that could be going on in some form or fashion, you would think, with basically anyone else who lives here. Like, given the set that they inevitably have seen, how could you not be a part of it in some way or another?

26:43Rob:Or is there no one doing it, and that's why the island is angry? Well, that's definitely part of the problem. that they're going to have to feed it someone. Whoever was the last mayor was keeping up to date with the human sacrifices. And Tom, I mean, like many things in Widow's Bay, really slacking, really slacking on the job. Absolutely. Civic services just aren't what they used to be. All right. Are you satisfied with the well? Like, do we need more information about the well? I mean, we know it's part of the network. It's very losty, honestly. I mean, look, this is the most losty part of the show.

27:14We are making our own kind of music. We are singing our own special songs. I like that it's part of the network, but I also kind of would have loved if the well was something even discreet and spookier. The fact that the payoff for looking down into this chasm of a well and seeing the, you know, the specter of death and then committing suicide or being hung on your own door is that, I guess, it's just kind of connected to everything else.

27:38Rob:Or did he go down there and see the chair? You don't go down the well. I mean, he might have. You shouldn't. Yeah, one should not. Can I tell you my, I'm going to skip ahead to my favorite bit of lore. so PJ Glanville as played by Beck Nolan yeah Evan's terrible friend is alive when she gets to the island very confusing or his ancestor it could be his ancestor a previous Glanville a striking resemblance but he's the only I was like as soon as I saw him I was like oh are they gonna populate the whole thing with actors we recognize from the town but he's the only one and that makes it even spookier and more fun what do you think he is?

28:17Rob:so a babadook uh on reddit a while ago uh someone had a pj glanville i was actually just looking up who the actor was and this reddit thread popped up okay so um i posted a few days ago about how i thought there might be something wrong with one of the teenagers after the reverend saw them and said there is an evil here while looking at the group we now know he was wandering around with his third eye open. What did he see? Oh, shit. Tom specifically said that PJ Glenville was an awful boy in the latest ep while he was high on shrooms. In the same ep, we saw PJ try to convince Evan to go into a dangerous house.

28:53Rob:So what's the deal with PJ Glenville? Oh, my God. I'm excited. It's been here all along, right under our noses. I'm thrilled. Like, I don't know what the answer's gonna be, and maybe it'll be nothing, but I'm just like, off-island girls, you are off the hook, because I think the villain in the Volvo is PJ Glenville. I'm excited. It seems safe to say, yeah, what could he be up to? Is it a he? Is it the island inhabiting a human form? See the embodiment of the island as a trickster teen. One can only dream. I hope so. There's always been a PJ Glanville every generation on the island. Wow. I would say even more than every generation and more than just on the island.

29:30There are trickster teens everywhere for those who care to look.

29:34Rob:Anything else specifically you want to say about episode five? And this is an unfavorable compare. I did like this episode. I would say I think it's my least favorite episode of the season. Well, it's a break from all the characters we like and care about. Absolutely. Though it does end with Wick and an incredible needle drop. Brandy is one of my favorite songs of all time. Guardians tried to ruin it, but it is like such a jam. Could not ruin it for you. And I let the credit the full credits play both times I watched this episode just so I could hear Brandy like all the way through. I love that song.

30:04Rob:But last week I was on the watch and Chris after episodes four and five widow's bay chris is making the argument that like if episode six is an absolute banger and four five and six will be like an incredible run of tv episodes and we were talking about other incredible runs yes buffy season two is one i always bring up hell yeah end of season three of lost you know like that you know like what's a great run of episodes on a show his definition of run was anything more than two um i think six like is enough of for me a step back in like my overwhelming enjoyment of Widow's Bay that I would not call that like a, you know, you could do three, four, five if you wanted to like see Haggett up.

30:44Rob:Like I would support that, but I don't think I would put six in like an all-timer run, but I really loved seven. And so, you know, like again, it was a great idea to double drop them. And it did remind me of like American Horror Story. So it gave me some like American Horror - Just apologize right now. It's going to be some like Roanoke flashbacks, but also like the witch, the witch, like, you know, some, you know, pilgrims are scary people. They can be. Yeah, absolutely. Whoever they cast to be like the doctor's severe wife slash future zombie. She's been in a lot of stuff. I really like her a lot.

31:19Rob:Really, really wonderful. She's got a great voice. I love her. Does have a great voice. Has a great look for it. I'm with you that it's not as dynamite and propulsive as those previous episodes. it strikes me as the kind of thing that is probably for the greater good of the season. The greater good, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we simply have to. If we're going to talk small-town conspiracies, like it's baked into the formula there. Hot fuzz, maybe. So I think we are stepping back. We're explaining a lot of things in a way that I would rather do this now than later. Exactly. Maybe there is a more artful way to do it without the flashback in real time where you're still with all the characters you're invested in.

31:51That's a thing you could probably do. I didn't mind it as much here. And frankly, I did appreciate the confidence of this episode because this is the kind of episode that we really usually only get in, as you alluded to, a final season or at least like a season two or three. Something where like the proof of concept is established, the show is a hit. And part of the reason is like, these are not cheap episodes to make. You have to - Oh yeah. You know, barring like one teen who is mysteriously still alive and well, do a whole new cast. He's bringing guest stars. You have to have like new costuming, new props.

32:22Rob:Your livestock budget. I mean, the chickens alone, the chicken wranglers are such divas. You have to build log cabins, whole cloth. Like it's not a cheap thing to do. And I would say I appreciate that Widow's Bay is like already coming out with the confidence of a show. They can deliver on that kind of thing. And also like I'll do credit to Apple who like they do put their money out there in terms of production. And so in a world where I'm just like volumed to death, put me in a real place where we're making like real old timey 1702 sets. Real chickens. I'm just going to salute that on principle even if the episode isn't as good as the episode.

32:56Rob:No, I agree. Like, I appreciate it. I'm glad it wasn't, like, a penultimate before the finale episode. I'm glad they put it mid-season. I just, like, wouldn't say four built to five built to six, you know, necessarily. Here's the thing. So if we didn't have the flashback and we just dug up Richard Warren and we still have basically the same kind of tone and comedic beats and Hamish Linklater still gets to do his thing, do we miss a ton? So, I mean, that might be the tell that maybe we just didn't need to do this in the first place. But now we know some like, you know, packs and, you know. We do.

33:33Rob:We do. We know that the demon was starving and so was he. I don't know. I just think it's, I think it's super interesting to give us as much lore info as they gave us in this episode. And I'm glad to have it. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's Gut Health Challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurts a day for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort.

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35:11Rob:Let's talk about episode seven. I think this is great. Tom brought in after his drug trip, Patricia and Wick have already been like They've seen some shit They've been wounded by the capsule We dug him up Yeah, we dug him up He's alive, he's alive upstairs I mean, Patricia, iconic, incredible Her like, no, her forceful no Yeah When Tom is gonna like No, no, no, no Yeah I know that our Widow's Bay pods are just us repeating like Patricia jokes, but like What else are we to do? They're so good This is the thing that I was so impressed with in Seven though is like, clearly, especially from Six we are entering into, I would say, darker and spookier territory overall.

35:50Like, it's just a slightly different tone in six. We come back in seven, and we're not abandoning anything about what makes the show so funny. And, like, you can just slink right back in. Yeah. And Richard Warren is a part of it, and now, like, a part of literally every comedic bit of banter that's happening in this episode. And I think really what cemented it for me was everything that happens when Tom goes up to meet Richard Warren for the first time. and the two Patricia cut-ins of like, I'm just going to leave you two to talk and then also I forgot my purse. Like, again, it's like horror is so atmospheric and I thought this episode in particular was a great reminder that like comedy can live anywhere, right?

36:28Like you can set that, you can set that and then you have the jump scare be a great joke basically.

36:32Rob:The way they framed him sitting on the corner of the bed like that in the dark and we don't see his like ashen face yet and stuff like that is very scary. Like it's really good. And it's moving, all that scene is moving so slowly. Just ratcheting up attention. And then like, you know, Matthew Rhys is giving us all the physical comedy we could hope for. I genuinely think, and again, I'm stepping on some categories, but I genuinely think the funniest joke of the whole season, perhaps for me, is the notepad. Which is like, hi, my name is Patricia. And then, are you mad at something I said? Like, someone in the writer's room was just like, what's the most Patricia thing we could put on this notepad?

37:12Rob:And it's to the undead man from 1702. Are you mad at something I said? Not, sorry, you were locked in a coffin for hundreds of years. But is this about me? And is it something I said? I think it's so funny. I think we gotta say, not only is that one of the best gags of the season, this is the most elite notepad show I've ever seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we just had so many moments pay off of it. Just literally like a pan to what someone has written down on a pad of paper. 100%. And it's funnier than you're going to see in basically another comedy rolling right now. I really agree. And then this, you know, it goes and we get the Patricia Bashir sort of side quest.

37:48Rob:Yep. Which is incredible and iconic and really, really good. And then we get Wick and Tom and Richard Warren out on the sea. And we get the most overt Jaws reference yet. How do you feel about a sea shanty? I mean, I'm glad they're back. I thought we were, I was, I feared that we were done with shanties. Right, we did the pandemic. There was the shanty revival. Earlier this season, I'm talking about. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We got one breakthrough shanty. And I'm like, is that going to be it? Okay. But no, we're on the seas doing the shanties almost in like a round. Did you happen to notice who wrote this sea shanty?

38:21Rob:No. Okay. So lyrics by Neil Casey, who is a writer on the show and plays the innkeeper on the show. Okay. So he did the lyrics of Who Will Be the Last Man. Music by Richard Reed Perry of Arcade Fire fame.

38:38Rob:this is an arcade fire shanty that's not apple money cash who can we get to write our shanty no arcade fire why not yeah yeah um i loved this i thought this was so good this is a very jaws show me the way to go home like definitely sort of uh moment but i thought this i mean to our uh irate listener who was like why aren't you covering widow's bay week to week the pathos here so we have patricia genuinely crying when bashear is driving her home and she thinks he's driving her to the station and she has thrown herself comedically on the sword of like tom i got this and like getting herself in trouble once again but bashear is just sort of like he's being sympathetic to her he's gonna take patricia home and he's also like tell me what the fuck is going on and also i don't care i'm over it i am done so funny really good worried about you Bashir and then Tom and Wick out on the boat Wick sort of giving his tragic backstory of what happened with his best friend and his girl Jerry uh kicking his friend off uh you know like this trauma that he has and then like Tom throwing him overboard to save him and like rescuing him like there's just like some real emotion and bonding and sort of like you have it in you Tom like mutual respect building that's happening between these characters I care about them so much.

39:58Rob:They care about the relationships that they're building with each other. Even the line from Richard Warren, when they go to, when they take him to the Richard Warren Museum about how he spent years thinking about how his children died. I'm like, this is a throwaway line sandwiched between a bunch of jokes. And I'm just like, show me my children's things. The efficiency of that emotion, I think is one of Widow's Bay's like strongest suits. Like they just, they really sneak it in. And then all of a sudden you feel kind of the dagger between your ribs as you're trying to walk through the rest of the episode.

40:28Rob:I love that. Can I spoil another one of the jokes that I love? Do you want to just jump to those? Do you just want to get into the categories? Maybe. I don't know. Anything else you want to say in a big picture way before we do that? I think let's just get into it. Okay. Don't say I didn't warn you. Is it in the gift shop? Like the dissonance of being a man from 1702 buried alive for hundreds of years, coming back and seeing your life, your children's objects in a museum. Yes. This papier-mâché replica of your hated second wife. I have questions about that. And then a t-shirt with your face on it.

41:07Rob:And it says, don't say I didn't Warren you. I mean, who came up? Did Jerry come up with that? Must have. I love that. Literally, who else works here? I love that. But also the restraint of the show. Like, another show might have come up with it. Yeah. But at some point, it would be like Richard Warren's clothes get tattered, and he has to literally wear the shirt. It's like, no, this is just in the background. It's just hanging on the wall. It's just there. Not even like full light. No. I was just like, what does that say? Oh. But also we need those shirts. Yeah, we do. We really, really do. We do.

41:35Rob:All right, let's do the categories. Best bit of lore. We've already talked about plenty of this. What do you want to add? I mean, there's so much here. Okay, I have a couple of questions slash general comments on what's happening here. The bell tolling. So we hear the bells toll on Richard and Sarah's wedding night. he goes off into the dark comes back and this is when she finds him like in communion with whatever beast he speaks to from that are we to interpret that the bells tolling is like calling for the lord protector of the island is it for the sacrifice or is it for like a meeting you know is this the calendar invite if the apocalypse comes to meet me basically maybe that's curious I don't know I was thinking of sort of like it's time I'm hungry do you remember yeah do you remember it's a dinner bell do you remember what the reverend read about like should the bell chime we might we might have to go back into the archives on that one i can't remember exactly what the language was yeah it was it was basically like if the bell chimed like shit's about to go down getting real yeah you know it was definitely to that effect i think it's i'm hungry i mean one can follow the other little shop of hers that's the general vibe around here these days.

42:50But what else is going on? Yeah, so the idea of the pact, we kind of covered that a little bit in terms of the sacrificing of life. Yeah, the plague slash zombying happening. I guess they're not really zombies.

43:00Rob:When Richard Warren is communing with the mushrooms or whatever it is he's doing, he's got the eyes rolled back in the head and the mouth open. Is that supposed to invoke the mouth open at Patricia's witching party? I can't remember if their eyes were rolled back in their head when they were doing it. They had their eyes, I think, more fully fixed forward. But also, I don't know if that's something that Hamish Linklater could do or if that's a contact lens situation or just like CGI. Oh, that'd be a contact. I don't know. Some people can do that shit. Can they? If they're in communion with the beast.

43:29Rob:For ctv.com, you can roll your irises all the way into the back of your head. I think some people can do it. But there may be something to it, especially when you think about the idea of like this is a man who has sold his soul, of like the extraction of even this kind of communication. That would make sense to me. A plague, a pact. Yep. P.J. Glanville, the door well. From Wick, talking about, you know, it's not just should you cross past this buoy, the light lights up, gone too far. The dead zone. The dead zone, a Stephen King novel. But also it struck from below, struck hard, saw a tentacle.

44:07Rob:There's like a kraken. It's got to be. Did you think about Buffy at E.T. starting with your bottom? You know, I did not. But this is why we do this podcast. you can remind me of the Buffy references I have missed. There's a critter in the water. There's tentacles in the water. I mean, now we're just getting real Lovecraftian with it. Here's my real question. Here's a real question I have. Okay. That was also a real question, but here's a real question. So Richard Warren says, kill me, you end my bloodline. And if you end my bloodline. Do we have secret Warrens? Well, at the end of the, okay. So he says, if you end my bloodline, packed over.

44:47Rob:We're done. We saw Sarah get in the boat with all the children. Yes. And like, you know, if the story of the island is true, those children would have died, right? Presumably. Okay. Except for the one in the water. Except for the one in the water. Wow. Joe, you've outdone yourself. We get that close up on the painting of the one in the water. I thought the painting of the one in the water or the zoom in and the revisiting of that was great. I almost interpreted watching as just like, oh, we're kind of like closing this loop. They all died was kind of my assumption, but I love the idea of the one in the water who got away.

45:22And now the curse lives on. And who is of the bloodline? Well, how do we identify a Warren, do you think? Like, what are the telltale signs?

45:32Rob:We're going to be the historical society on the case, I think. Let's get the genetic code down. Let's figure out, like, the biometric markers. There's a lot to be answered for. Press htv at Spotify.com if you have a secret Warren theory. Is it Rosemary? I mean, Rosemary would be among the funniest possible options. Who is it? It's got to be someone who has been introduced but hasn't been significant enough in terms of what they've been given to do yet. So maybe it is Dale. Maybe Dale is the secret of Warren. I'm excited to find out. While we're out at sea. So going beyond the dead zone is what causes people to die.

46:06Rob:Yes. It's also the limit of the covenant with Richard Warren and the island or the beast or whatever. and so like I guess is the best way we know to explain what is happening in terms of the very existence of Widow's Bay like the people who are going out past the dead zone and dying are they products of the magic that made the island sustainable and thus that's why they're dying do you think or is it simply that there's a sea creature out there who's scooping them up and eating them well yeah the tentacle was like a new added because I figured like given what we saw in the flashback with Tom and his wife it's just like you go past this barrier some shit happens to you internally But what if the tentacle isn't real?

46:43Like what if it was, you know, like his friend fell in the water? I mean, you gotta be really wary about metaphorical tentacles. Like they will do damage to your life.

46:53Rob:What if it's the tentacle inside of the darkness of your heart? You know what I mean? That's the one I'm worried about the most. And so like, I don't know what's real and what's kind of in these characters' imagination sometimes. And like, we've even seen that with kind of Tom in the Haunted Hotel, right? It's like, this is a thing that's like kind of a nightmare, but kind of real. I don't know. I don't know where one ends and the other begins. I don't know what is the project like product of magic versus what is just a person literally dying because they are at sea. But I love that we don't know.

47:18Rob:Okay. Favorite city employee. This is usually where we talk about Patricia and it's incredible Patricia thing, but I'm Bashir is who I'm naming inside of. I mean, Bashir does have a great episode. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm going to zoom out and just say it's Sarah, who is the Reeve prime of the colony. And what is that if not a civic position? Great point. Great point. You, you support women. I do. But I support Bashir as well. And yeah, his his whole spiel with Patricia I thought was really wonderful Patricia stealing his car in the first place as we got to say a very effective distraction when she goes someone may have reported my screaming and then yeah just sort of Kato Flynn comedic genius on fire in the show I got this whenever Patricia does her like false like confidence thing it's just really funny and then yeah the whole like bit with the car Tom watching with like his hand over his mouth but And look, if you have to smuggle out a coffin, you got to do something dramatic.

48:11Rob:So here's my question. Bashir's like, I'm done. I'm out. I'm leaving. My one week resignation. First of all, sir, there's too many episodes left. You are not leaving. His pregnant wife, which is our theory that he has a pregnant wife. Like, is Bashir making, or Bashir and his wife making it off the island? The horror movie formula tells us Bashir doubles back to help at an opportune time, right? He's not making it.

48:40Rob:Bashir we're rooting for you his wife has to make it because we haven't seen her so it's like you can't hold this character back for so long introduce her and then she dies well if we haven't seen her because they're holding back a pregnancy reveal which again is just a theory that a listener wrote in but I really think it's compelling I mean you love to run with a pregnancy rumor I love to look closely women's bodies and make comments about them alright favorite obvious joke I don't even know what is obvious and what's throwaway anymore so these two categories are kind of blending into one another i'm gonna say this is obvious and it's wick circling the the amulet around richard warren's neck on the portrait in sharpie i'm just like this could have been him pointing to it this could have been a camera cut but it's like no let's just let's just really commit to it and deface this portrait for me it's when richard is talking to tom about signing the covenant with his own blood feces and semen this is a throwaway joke i in part because not just the blood feces and but the slow setting down and wiping of his fingers on his pants that might be in contention for the best best bit of the show so far so good then yeah throw away joke i'm gonna give it to castering rollers on the suitcase it's just they're a menace and they should be stopped what else deserves a shout out here i think when the assassin comes to richard warren and sarah has to like aggressively point him in the right direction to not get stabbed very good uh her just like dribbling the spiked brandy back into the cup again it's like they're finding ways to just like undercut it ever so slightly but it still feels menacing right the seduction is happening and then she like takes us yeah betty gilpin you genius i love the way she runs into the church screaming about richard being alive and then has to like quietly curtsy when she greets the room full of people she didn't expect it's so good all right let's see um then we have favorite horror movie reference slash Easter egg.

50:30I would like to start with the black and white horror movie that Evan and Kelly are watching.

50:34Rob:I know what it is. The City of the Dead. Oh. A.K.A. Horror Hotel. Horror Hotel. Okay. In the United States. But it seems like City of the Dead is the honest to goodness original title. Rob, I love podcasting with you because I was like, Rob isn't gonna type in Christopher Lee in a line dialogue and figure out what movie this is. I know the voice of Christopher Lee literally anywhere. I hear it in my dreams and my nightmares, such as his power. Okay. So yeah, looking up a little bit about this movie, I've not seen it. Have you seen it? No, I thought about watching it, but my week got busy. But maybe we should watch it.

51:05There are limits, but maybe before next week's episode, we should find time to visit it. But I did read up about it, and specifically a horror movie about a town in New England with a history of human sacrifice and witchcraft and deals with the devil, and you guessed it, a haunted hotel.

51:19Rob:Yeah. I mean, they really know what they're doing in terms of the points of reference on this show. Yeah. Christopher Lee, our guy, this is great. I loved this. Do I think Evan and Kelly sorry, she's been upgraded from Off Island Girl. I know her name now. It's Kelly. Yes. Do I think Evan and Kelly are sitting down to watch Horror Hotel from the 1960? I don't, but I enjoyed it being there. Who do you think pulled it up? If one of them pulled it up. Evan. This is more of an Evan move. Yeah, because Kelly would rather rifle through Tom's death. Clearly. But yeah, the fact that Evan is going to pull up a 1960 horror movie that presumably he hasn't seen.

51:57He doesn't even seem too interested in it.

51:59Rob:Well, what are the movie offerings on the island? You don't think that the island also has Roku City? Roku City is everywhere. I don't know because they don't have cell phones. And they're all watching like two televisions. But they have Wi-Fi, I assume. Do they have a video store? Like a video droid? Like, what are we doing? When did the movie stop being shipped to the island? What is the cutoff date? Because clearly they can access 1960. but I think they must have color TV. It's not all black and white. Yeah. Aren't they watching a baseball game? Somebody was watching. Or I want to say maybe there was even like a tennis match or something happening.

52:34Maybe I'm getting my shows blending together at this point.

52:36Rob:But like, yeah, I do think they have access to television. I was just curious how many channels do you get on the island? I don't know. But this is apparently the movie you watch if you want to maintain respectful distance from your off-island would-be hopeful girlfriend. Like, they're very far away on that couch. They are. But maybe he was hoping she would leap up in terror and hop into his lap. Doesn't seem that scary. That's where you have to go more modern horror. Yeah. I will also say we are in deep, deep lost territory with a lot in this episode. The Wick-Tom dynamic of the man of science, man of faith has always been there.

53:14How does it feel to say that on yet another podcast?

53:17Rob:I know. We're tired of it. But when they're charting a course and you hear garbled chattering on the radio and Wic is like the islands playing games, I'm just like, that's the lost shit right there. It's extremely lost shit. Also, just in terms of the horror trope part of that, I just love haunted static. Like if you're on a plane or a boat and there's a ghostly voice saying, mayday, mayday, I'm fucking dialed in. I'm here. I'm going down with the ship. That's how invested I am. I love it. best haunt, scare, spook, or fright? Yeah, I think this one is going to have to be for me Sarah trying to negotiate with plague-ridden Abigail on the dock and her kind of emergence from, you know, whatever pit she has climbed her way out of.

54:02Rob:And the, like, tar black blood that's on her. The bile, like, there's just something like, again, insisting she's not sick, and then there's always something about, like, a zombie-esque kind of scream and lunge. But I think it's just so effective here. Was that scarier or Tom lunging for his loafer scarier? What do you think? It depends on if you're a loafer. You know, if you're a loafer, you don't want to see Tom coming. If you're an employee of the one gas station on the island, you definitely don't want to see Tom coming. What was your biggest spook? Honestly, we saw multiple eye gouges, a real life woman.

54:33Rob:And then also Sarah, like the paper mache head. What did you make of that? I don't know. Is that the go-to killing move of 1702? It might have been. It was really in season. Gotta gouge those eyes. Yeah, there was something. And I wonder if that's another element where there's going to be an eye thematic tie in of some kind of whether it's like the demon possessed people, whether it's the people afflicted by this plague or whatever. I was like, I want those eyes. Everybody's hungry. Ring the bell. I want those eyes. But yeah, the fact that when given the opportunity, that's exactly what he went for on the papier-mâché model of his wife.

55:07One that if we're just going to talk the construction of the show, looks a lot like Betty Gilpin. And the props work. And frankly, all the portraits of Richard. But whoever did the in-world papier-mâché model really did her justice.

55:20Rob:Some incredible work. New England's best kept secret. I'm already thought, huh, would it actually be nice to live here? Yeah, I didn't have that this week. I have one. Didn't have that sensation. Bashir, a nice cop. Oh. A nice local cop who you can trust. How quickly we've gone from fuck you pig to a nice cop you can trust. It just takes having one cop on the island. He has a deputy. like there's because there are other people in the police station. Although this is on brand for you because the moment in which he appeals to you is the moment he quits being a cop. He's like, I'm putting in my notice.

55:52I'm out of here.

55:52Rob:A cop's so good he doesn't want to be a cop anymore. That's I mean, that's the catch 22. That's where do you find that guy? On an island. I mean, a spooky haunted island. If I were to find something in these two episodes, it's not going to be in 1702 in terms of when I want to be living there. But I always would aspire to be not someone with a boat, but someone who knows somebody with a boat. And so the idea that Wick, you know, your sometimes crazy buddy could just take you out to a reasonable distance at sea. Who can't enjoy a day like that? I got served a video that I almost sent to you of Matthew Reese being interviewed for Eater.

56:24Rob:And it was so it was like a great because I guess he like owns a seafood restaurant in New York. We should go, don't you think? On Company Dime. Yes, that's research. So he's like sitting there with the interviewer eating like lobster rolls and like baked oysters and talking about like his his like seafood. Talking about Widow's Bay, but talking about this like seafood restaurant that he owns, like a little seafood shack on a dock. And then also, I guess he owned a boat at one point. And so the interviewer is like, why was your boat named Rarebit? Like, well, Welsh Rarebit was named Rarebit. And he's like, oh, that's what it was named.

56:56Rob:It's like a superstition thing. You're not supposed to rename boats. I didn't know that. I didn't know that either. He's like, but it was kind of I bought a wooden boat. I thought it would be charming. It turns out it was a lot of upkeep. So I sold the boat. I don't have it anymore. There's so much work. But he does not have a boat. But he probably knows someone who has a boat. But this is just for me. Sorry. This is not great podcasting. I felt like at the very end of the episode, we see the interviewer. It's my friend Nadia, who used to work for Eater Austin. And now she works for Eater New York.

57:22Rob:And I was like, Nadia. Breaking Matthew Rhys news. Getting to the bottom of the boat business. Interviewing Matthew Rhys. I was so excited. I was like, wow. First of all, I didn't know she had moved to New York years ago. And secondly, I didn't know she's out here interviewing Matthew Reese. You should watch that interview. It's very charming. He's talking about seafood and Widow's Bay, and it's great. This is how people keep up with each other in modern times. You know, in 1702, you're just walking across town trying not to trip over a chicken as you implored the help of a preacher. Now you're like, hey, here's my friend who I didn't know lives in this other city.

57:49And I find that out via an Eater New York video.

57:52Rob:Yeah. The Instagram reel delivered for me. Thank you so much. All right. The Reese piece. Anything you want to say about Matthew Reese that we haven't already? Yeah, I think the specific recoiling he does when Richard Warren speaks for the first time after the notepad shenanigans have begun, like pops out of his chair, fully recoils, does like a hold his breath and puff his cheeks kind of like form of terror. He's just inventing new ways to be scared. And I'm loving it. And as a counterpoint to that, by the end of that episode, we see a part of Tom that we haven't really seen on this show, a part of Matthew Rhys in performance that we haven't really seen on the show, which is him like really flexing.

58:26Like I did very fucking good. I've seen that Matthew Reese before I love that version of Matthew Reese Tom just usually isn't that kind of guy and frankly hasn't had that much to celebrate

58:35Rob:mine is a plussing of last week's which was about his inability to vomit and this is him trying to handle his seasickness by sticking his head out the window like a Labrador he can't vomit but he's clearly seasick so he's just like I get seasick very easily I get motion sick very easily and that is like such a good hack is like try to just inhale as many lungfuls of cold air as you can And it really helps if you're a secret. You're not going to get invited on Rarebit that way. I know. And I deserve to go. All right. The root of the matter. Steven Root. So I think this is a good time to kind of revisit the tragic backstory part of that.

59:12And especially the way it's used within the show, which is like all of these hints and allusions to the fact that Tom is like such a feckless coward of a leader where he like says he's going to like loosen Richard Warren's ropes a little bit. and then just basically lets him out. Says he's like, has this fake conversation with Wick about like, should we let him out of the coffin but also pan up and he's just sitting there at the table.

59:36Rob:Spoiler, that's my favorite. Steven was like when he pops his head. And there's just this desiccated man sitting there in the galley. Yeah. But the fact that you can ground all that in this like very real, as you alluded to with the pathos of the show, this like very real, terrifying bit of history about where Wick and Jerry and her fallen brother have come from. Yeah. it's just so artfully done and so well balanced and the calibration on this show never ceases to amaze me and I would say Steven Rood is as big a part of that as anybody is I love that the tragic backstory of the like us not knowing like the I would guess the sort of like subtle offhanded way we've learned so much about his relations with Jerry yeah he's clearly like still like stuck on her right like he still likes her he wants to be handled with some cotton gloves absolutely he and so we're like why aren't they together they were they were sweethearts when they were young what happened well like clearly overwhelmed by guilt over yeah being involved in the death of her brother did he break up with her did she does she know what happened and she broke up with him like well even if she believes her brother just drowned in the ocean like that that could be more than enough to decimate a relationship like that it's sad oh incredibly so all right speaking of young love evan and kelly yeah we didn't talk about this in the lore but like this is a big reveal is that you and you had sort of we had been talking about this we weren't sure exactly what we saw when we saw tom's wife his old wife um in the hospital bed right it's like very terrifying but we see that she was still alive in some form or another yeah after evan's birth which is something evan didn't know so to encounter photographs of yourself with your mom who you thought died before or when you were born and the way he says I knew her I was just really I thought that was really good it's a hit straight in the chest and yet again a moment where I think Widows Bay does a great job of sort of balancing the interpretations of those photos where she does look like just haunted and vacant enough again it's hard to tell you can't tell in a static image you can't really tell but like yeah she's kind of staring off in the distance so was she just like not there.

1:01:46Rob:Yeah. And that, and so they like hid the truth. Or is it a tasteful candid? One can never know. We really don't know. But I think we have to talk about Kelly by association. Like these off-island girls only want one thing and it's to rifle through all of your parents' stuff. Are you out on the off-island girls now? She just, the way she goes from. Oh, who's not supporting women now? The way she goes from, I'm just sitting on this couch not paying attention to this old horror movie to can we just ransack your dad's room? Well, I like that they've seeded that before with, you noted this, Evan, just going through his dad's death.

1:02:18Rob:So, like, but he's like, you know. Even he seems a little hesitant about this. The locked box at the bottom of the trunk and she takes a paperclip and just, like, picks that lock. That is not her first time. She's a bad influence on him. Yeah, you get those off-highland girls. They're too fast. They're way too fast for our boy, Evan. You know, he needs to be protected. He's a sensitive boy. All right. Any theories that we haven't talked about already? I don't have anything beyond the secret warren idea. You know, honestly, I don't have anything else. I think we covered pretty extensively all the lore that these episodes drudge up.

1:02:47And frankly, we don't even know what to make of it all yet. But I don't know. Here's a question. Do you think that the underground tunnels, we know that they go to the well.

1:02:56Rob:They connect. We know that they connect to the sacrificial chair. Yeah. Which I believe we were shown to be almost directly underneath the salty whale. But do we know where, geographically speaking, in Widow's Bay, Richard Warren's house would have been? I wonder if it's Tom's house. Is it just that simple? That it's true. But that doesn't feel like a house he got when he became mayor. You're right. That's the house he raised. Evan's been there his whole life, I would assume. It still could be. I don't know. If you can draw us a map of Widow's Bay. We love a map. We would love to have it. If you have more Babadooking to share with us, we'd love to hear it.

1:03:31Rob:If you think my comparison of Rob and Beto O 'Rourke is accurate, we would love to hear it. No, we wouldn't. We'll stop. I'll stop. And theories. We want your theories. I really, really want your theories. We are recording this early, so we have not had a chance to see how people are reacting to these episodes. And I'm sure there are things that the Reddit detectives got that we missed. So press htv at Spotify.com. Keep those Widows Bay emails coming. And we will be covering this week to week for the rest of the season. I'm really excited about it. Me too. And also before we get out of this, I want to, I feel like we bagged on episode six a little bit for just like not being the version of the show that we love.

1:04:05Not unfairly.

1:04:06Rob:Not like bagged. I'm just like, it was just like a slight dip for me. It's a slight dip, something very different. But I will say even within that, I really love the writing in episode six. Like even stuff like there's this line I wrote down about Cornelius Evans, who's like the infected man who gouged at his wife's eyes of like his eyes were yellow with spoiled moons. And it's just like there are turns of phrase in that 1702 way that whether whether historically true or not, I fucking love. Yeah, I love it. All right. Thank you to our small town that is here with us today. Jacob Cornett is here.

1:04:39Rob:Kai Grady is here. Dev Rinaldo's here the dream team thank you to you listening and demanding that we cover Widow's Bay we really appreciate it definitely thanks to Rob Mahoney thank you Joe the best Robert I know thank you to all the plagued people out there who may or may not be listening maybe zombies maybe krakens we just hope to have your support and PJ Glanville yeah if you're hungry ring that bell we'll see you soon bye

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