Bigger than Ed Sheeran – have you heard of Mrs Green Apple? Why are so many old bands in the album charts? (And so few in the singles chart?) Plus: The Wiggles!

16:20Steve:I mean, that is true. I'm probably the only one who's thought that this is of any note within rock music. We shall see, as I say, your thoughts. Please, any other business? We should just quickly mention this because it's the end of a story which we've been covering for over a year and it's what i mean i think this is this is going to disappoint quite a lot of the indie advocates out there including aim the association of independent music amongst them but uh last week so it's last week or the week before at the end of the previous week uh the european regulators approved that takeover by universal or music group of the independent firm, Downtown Music, just for the final time.

17:10Steve:Now you know we won't have to touch this story again. I don't think. Yeah. But tell us what this was all about. Because the deal, as soon as it was approved, within a week, the deal's actually gone through, hasn't it? Virgin Music Group now own Downtown Music. But why is that important and how did it happen?

17:31Stu:Yeah. so this has been going on for ages um it was announced a year and a half ago wasn't it now on that so um yeah so virgin music group which is a bit of universal music that deals with independent music in terms of it's a distributor and artist services company it helps artists so it's it's just the indie bit of umg i know some people will go there at that thought but that is and so now it owns downtown music which downtown music is this multi-pronged firm it does publishing It does royalty collecting. It works with a bunch of independent artists in different ways and labels. So it's now part of VMG, which is part of UMG, acronym FANS.

18:09Stu:And what's going to happen now is the first thing they're going to do is they're going to sell a thing called Curve, which is downtown's royalty processing company. So it's a company that artists and labels can use to kind of process their royalties from streaming all these places. And the regulators said that was the one sticking point with the deal going through was saying, well, we're a bit worried about Curve has got all this data on people's royalties and streams. And if Universal owns that data, it could use it in anti-competitive ways. So they've said, no, we'll sell this Curve. And this is a very sort of inside baseball thing, but that's going to spark a who's going to buy it debate.

18:45Stu:And whoever buys this, it could become a big new service used by independent labels and artists. So that's one strand of this. And otherwise, they're going to kind of get on with integrating it. And what's happening is, I mean, the approval was announced and then Universal announced the completion of the deal. But we also heard from the independent bodies. So we heard from Impala, which is a European Indies body. It's been very, very prominent in fighting this. We heard from Wynn, which is the global labels body as well. And I mean, essentially they did lose in that the deal went through and they didn't want it to go through.

19:19Stu:But what the Indie bodies have been saying is, actually, we think it's a partial victory because the regulators took a really long, hard look at this and they made them do a change. They made them sell this bit curve before they got it through. And so in both cases, these bodies have said, we think this is really good, this level of scrutiny and this willingness to tell them you can't do this unless you sell off that bit. Impala said it sends a clear message that future acquisitions will subject to tough and lengthy scrutiny. So that's the line coming up, the Indie camp against this deal that this shows that any air term major tries to buy a big independent music firm in future, the regulators will be on them like a ton of bricks.

19:59Steve:I think they must be bitterly disappointed, though, because in the cut and thrust of the arguments that were going backwards and forwards, the language aimed at Universal and their harvesting various independent firms, I mean, they were so vehemently anti this happening that I don't know if we can underestimate just how strongly some people feel about this. Because if at the end of this whole process, and yes, it's good that regulators took their time. But in the end, greenlighting this, surely the worry then is that there'll be more acquisitions by the majors of independent firms to follow. Because they'll be scrutinized and then greenlighted, scrutinized, then greenlighted.

20:57Steve:I don't know. That's why I think, and particularly, I'm sure, I'm sure AIM are hurting this week.

21:04Stu:Yeah. I mean, there are two other things to say about it. One of the things where I think that the people were less angry and more thoughtful was, in part of this, what they do want is they want independent music companies to be able to sell if they want to. Because that's how, I guess, innovation works and entrepreneurs work. That if you set up a company, at some point you might want to sell it. And if you can sell it, that encourages people to set up independent companies and start. So they've been saying, okay, right, if we don't want them to sell to major companies, we need to figure out how to have other people who would like to buy them.

21:38Stu:How can we make independent music something that other people buy into? So that's one of the longer term things here. They think it's going to make, in a way, the fact that Universal paid, I think it was$775 million for downtown. That does say independent music is valuable, and maybe there'll be other people who want to come in and buy who aren't Universal. So that's one thing. The other thing is, I think there's going to be some afters for this. So one of the things that might happen now is some artists may decide or songwriters, I don't want to carry on using downtown if I'm using them to collect my royalties, my publishing.

22:09Stu:I don't want to. I don't want to be within Universal if I'm independent. And everyone is saying they're going to watch very carefully to make sure that no one is kind of restricted from leaving if they want to. So if they want to leave downtown, can they take all their data with them? They're not given any kind of reasons why they can't. So that's the afters here that people are watching and saying, right, you did say that it would be fine if people wanted to leave us once we own this company. now you have to follow through on that. So I think there's a lot of like, we're going to keep watching them because we don't trust them one bit about this.

22:40Stu:But yeah, it's a knock. But I think it's for, to give the other side, Universal and Virgin have both talked about how they want to make downtown bigger and better and provide better services for the independent artist it does work with. And I think it's important to put that because I think the arguments haven't been about there's not good people there wanting to do good things. so one positive outcome here is they put more money behind it and it does a good job for the

23:05Steve:independent artists who are still there all right the company that helped radiohead bad bunny and oasis make sure fans not touts got tickets for their tours uh is now looking to expand and help

23:18Stu:more artists yeah i wanted to raise this i would see what you think about it really because it's a company called open stage and we've talked about them before but they they help artists basically build a database or a main list of their fans and then give them first dibs on tickets and the whole idea is we want to get tickets in terms of fans not taps like i said so if you i mean if anyone who read this of radio had tickets and were told yes you've got a code you can go in and try and buy they did that i got my super four animals tickets through a system they ran as well so they're working with a growing number of artists and yet the news is they're unlock opening up to other artists it's called ticket unlocks so the idea is that more and more artists can do this when they're going to have concerts that are going to sell out, they're going to help them say, right, how do you want to do this?

24:02Stu:Do you want to do a lottery where fans just apply and you do it at random? Do you want to do a weighted thing where you're basically essentially saying, who are my biggest fans? Well, who reads the emails I send? Who clicks on the links to the emails? Who buys merch? Who's bought tickets before? And that's, I think, the thing that's in my mind about this, this, this, this maybe new era we're going to where is the answer to ticket touting starting to rank fans by their fandom and say, yeah, you qualify for a ticket because we can see these things you've done that make you a fan. You don't qualify for a ticket because we can't see.

24:39Stu:And I'm, I'm in two minds about that. Like this idea of an artist being able to say, yes, here are my top thousand fans, I'll give them tickets first. On the one hand, that does shut the touts out. It's very hard to kind of game that system with a bot. On the other hand, if you're not in that top thousand, but you love a band or an artist, you end up feeling a bit sad or angry. This feels like where we're going now, this idea of there's loads of data on everything that a fan does to do with an artist. So shall we use it to decide who comes to the concerts?

25:13Steve:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of dangers with that, I think. I mean, I get why you would do it, and on the face of it, that's good. I mean, the good thing is, all right, getting the tickets to actual fans, but aren't you in danger of selling your tickets to the same thousand fans every time? Because then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Because who came to our last gig? Well, the thousand we picked last time. So now it's the same thousand. And again, you could use it to say not that thousand, another thousand.

25:46Stu:You could use this technology in different ways.

25:48Steve:You could use it to say. Do you want to be that involved in picking and choosing who's going to your gigs? Look, I think it's great that there's, you know, that we're using the data in some way to lock out the touts. What you do with it, how you do it, I think, as you say, we'll come down to individual artists because they'll have the choice of how they do it. Do you, yeah, as you say, do you do a lottery? Do you rank people? But at least it's not, you know, the ticket prices aren't before legislation comes in, being inflated by the fact that someone who doesn't live in this country has set up a bot farm, which has raided the virtual ticket office.

26:29Steve:So interesting. We haven't done anything about TikTok for a while. Here's a TikTok story. if you use TikTok or the TikTok app you can now stream full songs, full music songs rather than just the clips there's one catch though I believe

26:45Stu:there is, you have to be on Apple Music and it doesn't work here in the UK yet or US but this is interesting though this is another one, a little story but it illustrates a trend of how things are going so yeah, there's a new button in TikTok in some countries that lets you when you watch a video and discover a song that's in the background, you can click a little play full song button and listen to the full song from Apple music, because you can't do that in Tik TOK at the moment. It didn't have a license to stream you full songs.

27:11Steve:Right.

27:11Stu:So, um, in the past you could click a button and it would take you out into your streaming app if you'd set it up.

27:17Steve:Right.

27:18Stu:So it's just kind of, so it's a little thing that cuts down that friction, but, and it does, it does tie into what music industry likes, which is that like people, lots of people are hearing music in Tik TOK, you know, and they're maybe watching, I mean, And that Fleetwood Mac is a famous example of a guy skateboarding down the street drinking cranberry juice, but they were listening to Fleetwood Mac and it sent the song back into the charts. So this stuff has happened before. Like if you go, if your song goes viral on TikTok, it can lead to an increase in streams elsewhere. But there's kind of a few steps in between that.

27:49Someone has to go to go and find the song.

27:51Steve:Yeah.

27:51Stu:So this, the logical extension of this is it launches in more countries and it adds the other streaming services. So if you're a Spotify subscriber or a YouTube subscriber on Amazon, you can do this too. and it could be a big it could be a good thing i think because at the moment there is this this this worry that you don't get a lot of money from your song being in tiktok videos and the argument has always been we have a promotion you know you get more streams elsewhere possibly look at the fleet with mac did and it's a bit unscientific but it would be a good thing because then again to to to come back to our idea about about like people actively liking stuff if If you just are watching endless TikTok videos, swiping your way down your feed, not really paying attention to the music, fair enough.

28:36Stu:But if a song stops you in your tracks and you go, I want to hear what that is, it would be great if there's literally just one button to go and listen to it in full. It could turn some of this passive listening that we worry about into people going, ah, I know that song. I'm going to follow that artist. I'm going to find out more about them. And then everything becomes a bit more positive. so it's a good thing but it's for now it's a limited experiment many people listening to

29:01Steve:this won't be able to get it in tiktok if they're on tiktok right but yeah uh and finally for this week um back to our friends at umg universal music group have signed a uh well a hot but not so new band this month umg have signed the wiggles the wiggles is that have you ever had

29:25Stu:to say that phrase that two word phrase before what the wiggles in a broadcast

29:31Steve:just but just before i give you my top knee worth on this the wiggles are australian they are they're australian and and basically how would you describe the wiggles well they're they're

29:44Stu:kind of children a children's pop music i think tv show music they make pop kids they wear colorful star trek style outfits don't they so there's like red wiggle and blue wiggle and green Wiggle so they're easily identified. And they've been going since 1991 and they are literally one of the biggest things outside Australia too, I think, for kids.

30:03Steve:Oh, it's like no one will remember the TV programme, unless you're of a certain age, Rainbow. It's like Rainbow meets the New Seekers. I mean, there's one, there's two for the kids. But I know this is a throwaway story. But you see, for me, unwittingly, this says so much though about what is happening in a certain part of the music industry at the moment and i obviously why have they signed wiggles well because it makes absolute business sense i guess give us the stats because this is the this is the re this will be

30:33Stu:the reason yeah they've had more than four billion music streams and six billion youtube views yeah over their career and they're one of those bands that regenerate as well so i think the original wiggles are all you know too old to perform now and they've just got these they've replaced them with younger Wiggles. So now they've got, they're all kind of young and fresh faced.

30:52Steve:Yeah. So it's a brand.

30:53Stu:It's like a franchise and a brand, not like a group of four people.

30:57Steve:I know. I know, he said, with a sigh of disappointed resignation. But you know what this says? You know what this says? Two things that this says. One, once, I mean, I know they're an ongoing group. And as you say, you know, regenerating like Doctor Who, but it's heritage artists. Again, it's proven artists. actual proven artists who were increasingly tempting for record labels to get involved with. Because this is the blueprint. I know this first started probably with probably back in the 90s when there were various labels set up to sign bands who'd been dropped by majors but still had a certain size following that you can make money out of.

31:42Steve:But it is now. This is more and more prevalent. Let's invest in something that we know people have liked and will still like. And in Wiggles' case, again, the audience will keep coming. You know, it will just be a different audience. It's not like it's one audience that will grow old with them. But it comes back to why risk signing something new that might fail when you can sign something which is nailed on to recoup? However much they've signed them for, you can see at the end of it, right, we will have made our money back by this point unless something something unforeseen happens that's one thing and the other thing based on those stats i know i know we've you know there's always you know there's always been novelty records there's always been you know kids acts which have been popular but but now these days that it's all down to isn't it it's umg have looked at YouTube and thought, you know, these kids' videos, they properly coin it in, don't they?

32:44Steve:I mean, there's money in that under sevens market. And so, you know, having looked at, you know, you're quite good at bringing up, you know, things that sell well with the under fives. But obviously now labels are going, yeah, well, let's have a piece of, let's have a piece of that. Why would we bother signing a band with leather trousers and attitude when we know we can make money out of something which has a captive audience?

33:12Stu:If you're a band with leather trousers and attitude, maybe you need to get some colourful T-shirts and start rolling songs about animals with the conversative. I mean, this is why, because I know I always mention things like Baby Shark and Wheels on the Bus, but I am so fascinated by it. I feel like parents know, and they're like, yeah, my child. But this is the thing, where a lot of the industry is worrying a bit, and we've talked about this idea of passive listening, haven't we? And people just playing a playlist and not really caring who's on it. You know who doesn't do that? Kids. Kids go, play that again.

33:41Stu:Play that again. Play it for a 12th time in a row because I love it so much. And so there is money there. There's repeat things. And it's, so yeah, I think you're right though. It's a proven brand. And it's one of those things where it's a live entertainment brand. They play these big concerts and pack out, you know, theaters.

33:59Steve:They're doing the XL Centre in London twice. They're doing Birmingham Symphony Hall. Their UK tour is, as you say, 10 very big dates in April.

34:12Stu:In Australia, I think, I mean, I need to talk to some Australians about this, but there's been a lot of talk this year about how there's worry in Australia about local artists aren't doing so well on streaming locally. So Australians are streaming more American ads and so on. The Wiggles are kind of the thing that bucks a trend. the Wiggles are the one that lots of Australians are playing. And yeah, if you're in an Australian ministry because you're thinking about bands and new artists, the fact that Wiggles are so big, I mean, it doesn't really affect you because they're not cannibalizing adults who might listen to you.

34:45Stu:But it does sort of highlight, doesn't it? What's the biggest band in Australia right now? Someone's been going since 1991 making songs for kids.

34:53Steve:Yeah. I mean, as I say, astute business.

34:55Stu:Do you know what they're signed? to be putting stuff out through Republic Records in the US, or the kids bit of that. So they're label mates of Taylor Swift and Nicki Minaj and The Weeknd now, which is an amusing little side thing of that.

35:08Steve:Well, look, as a man of a certain age, I'm definitely more Wombles than Wiggles, and that's it for this. I don't know how we've ended up here. Thank you very much for listening. If you are enjoying the show, please do spread the word. You can also support us via our Patreon page. In fact, if you sign up to be a superfan, you get to join us for our weekly lock-in. You can stay behind after hours. You get an extra 15 minutes or so of bonus material this week. Remixing your favourite band, how much are gold discs worth, and artists who've taken umbrage at their pictures on Wikipedia, that's coming up.

35:47Steve:You can gain access to it by becoming a superfan at patreon.com slash thepriceofmusic. Alternatively, if you'd like to get in touch with us, just send us an email. Thank you to everyone who's been in touch, I should say, and asked us a few questions. We are working on some of those for possibly next week and the week after. But anything you don't understand about how the industry works that we might be able to clear up for you, drop us a line, thepriceofmusicpodcast at gmail.com. Until next week, cheerio.

36:27Thank you.